Combined Arms questions

[Empyrus]

Which Spheroid factions actually use combined arms heavily? This before the Jihad and Republic era, because those mix things up a bit.

As far as i recall, FedCom (well, Davion half anyway) is probably the most prolific user of combined arms, and have designed considerable amount of vehicles, some quite expensive for their era.
The Free Worlds League is another heavy user, i think.
Finally, i seem to recall that CapCon are billed as combined arms user, though more by necessity than choice.

Lyrans and Kuritans seem to be somewhat averse to integrated combined arms units if not opposed to vehicles per se.
ComStar/WoB seem to be using quite a lot of vehicles but whether they use combined arms seems to depend quite a lot.

What about minor factions, Periphery powers, the like?


Finally, if Cappies really do use combined arms, what vehicles do they use? Because it seems they're kinda lacking homegrown designs. The FedCom has variety of heavy tanks like Manteuffel and Challenger, the FWL has things like Main Gauche and Ontos (they're not the only user but IIRC the Ontos is heavily associated with them), Lyrans have Rhinos and Rommels, and even the Dracs have Tokugawa and Schiltron.
I recall they use Blizzards but that is actually a Periphery design. Other than variants of existing designs, i can't actually name anything homegrown by them. I guess they're sticking with common designs?

[deathfrombeyond]

Finally, if Cappies really do use combined arms, what vehicles do they use? Because it seems they're kinda lacking homegrown designs.

Using combined arms doesn't mean exclusively use heavy armor.

Two notable Capellan combat vehicles are the Regulator and the Po.

[Kidd]

In the Succession Wars the Combine got the reputation of deploying their tankers and infantry poorly in wave attacks, focusing on Mechwarriors (more so than everyone else).

I understand most Lyran generals consider a lance of Commandos to be infantry :D kidding, I don't know much about LAAF tactics

Capellans also build the Demolisher and Zhukov.

[Empyrus]

Using combined arms doesn't mean exclusively use heavy armor.

Two notable Capellan combat vehicles are the Regulator and the Po.

I only named heavier units (Main Gauche aside, which is mere 30 ton design), didn't imply they're the only ones.
Forgot the Regulator and Po really. (But then they never seemed particularly interesting to me.)

[deathfrombeyond]

I only named heavier units (Main Gauche aside, which is mere 30 ton design), didn't imply they're the only ones.
Forgot the Regulator and Po really. (But then they never seemed particularly interesting to me.)

:: shrugs ::

I'm a fan of using fast moving, hard hitting units. An augmented lance using Sha Yu and Regulators makes me happy.

[Dayton3]

Regarding the Draconis Combine and Lyran Commonwealth,  IIRC the Combine went through long periods of idolizing the "samurai ideal" which of course put massive emphasis on warrior to warrior single combat which naturally meant a massive emphasis on 'mech to 'mech combat.

The Lyran's had an obsession with heavy and assault 'mechs.   Much like the U.S.Air Force said to be controlled by former fighter pilots (the "fighter mafia") meaning an obsession with tactical aircraft.

I also think the so called "Age of War"  in Battletech deemphasized combined arms operations.    Because many conflicts were fought in well defined,  limited areas for limited and well defined objectives,  it made just more sense to risk the lives of say 12 'mech pilots in a company rather than 70 or 80 soldiers of all kinds in a combined arms unit.

[sadlerbw]

The Davions were supposedly the biggest IS House proponents of combined arms. They would actually group Mechs, armor, infantry and aerospace assets into a single combat team or regiment and train to work as a single force rather than separate elements that happened to be in the same chain of command. Still, many of their forces were traditional and not all that combined, but they supposedly did 'real' combined arms more than most.

The Capellans didn't so much use combined arms, as they were kinda poor and had a decent number of vehicle and infantry units because they couldn't get enough mechs. They didn't necessarily work together all that much in the 4sw and clan invasion eras, they just happened to have more tanks because they were less expensive.

The Free Worlds was bigger on using AeroSpace and Mech forces together. Again, they weren't necessarily integrated forces, but in the FWL case, at least the naval forces were used to support the mechs with some regularity. I don't recall them being especially fond of vehicles or infantry though.

The FRR was fluffed to have rather large numbers of tanks integrated into their regiments. They relied quite a bit on armor integrated with their mech forces, supposedly.

If you want to count them, the ComGuard were also very heavy on combined arms down even to the small-unit level. They would mix tanks, infantry, and Mechs in a single Level I. They were probably the most pure combined arms force of the era.

[Iron Mongoose]

Its also very era specific.  The early Dark Ages feature wide spread combined arms, where as the raiding periods of the 3rd Succession War saw tanks being cannibalized to keep mechs in the field.

Historically, the FedSuns have always been number one, thanks in large part to their RCTs. The DC has basically always been last. The others have come and gone in time.

On the whole though,  every IS and periphery power uses at least some combined arms.  The non-Horse Clans are probably the least tank using, but you can nearly always find elementals and fighters.

[Empyrus]

Its also very era specific.  The early Dark Ages feature wide spread combined arms, where as the raiding periods of the 3rd Succession War saw tanks being cannibalized to keep mechs in the field.

I did specify pre-Jihad for this reason.

My questions actually rose from that i was thinking about what non-'Mech minis i might be getting in the future:
My primary unit is a Capellan company, and i realized i have no idea what would go neatly with them. (For FedCom, there's a lot of things round the Civil War era, easy to choose stuff). During the Dark Age, Cappies get some lovely stuff (Pixiu!) but before that, it is a tad limited selection unless i go with common units.
Good thing the Regulator and Po were noted. Add in Blizzards and Fa Shih Battle Armor and i got a reasonable unit from just those. Maybe some generic units too.

As for Clan combined arms, IMO Nova/Supernova formations are their use of combined arms for most part (and Protomechs, for those Clans that use them). They seem to be fond of bidding ASFs away.
That said, they do have some exceptions. Hell's Horses are the well known one, but Steel Vipers use conventional infantry, and Cloud Cobras and Snow Ravens like using aerospace fighters.

I also think the so called "Age of War"  in Battletech deemphasized combined arms operations.    Because many conflicts were fought in well defined,  limited areas for limited and well defined objectives,  it made just more sense to risk the lives of say 12 'mech pilots in a company rather than 70 or 80 soldiers of all kinds in a combined arms unit.

There's also the issue of transporting an offensive force... 'Mechs are generally more suitable for attacking and working in unfamiliar terrain, while vehicles benefit from shorter logistics (fuel usually) and using defensive tactics (vehicles chosen specifically for local conditions, entrenched positions).

[The Eagle]

The FWL wasn't whole-hog on combined arms in the period, true, but the Defenders of Andurien were.  The Defenders are quoted in several sources as being the inspiration for "Thomas Marik"s reforms post-Andurien War that started integrating 'Mechs with conventional forces.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

The easiest way to learn what Capellans have is to check Field Manual: Updates RATs, if you have it.

[Empyrus]

The easiest way to learn what Capellans have is to check Field Manual: Updates RATs, if you have it.

You know, i completely forgot i have FM CCAF... No FM Updates though.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

If you have MegaMek, they are in \MegaMek\data\rat\default.zip\(3067) - FM Updates\Inner Sphere\Capellan Confederation

[Natasha Kerensky]

You can usually point to one or two units within each House that employ a combined arms doctrine.

The Cappie Warrior House regiments, for example, are typically composed of a battalion of mechs and a battalion of infantry.  And the Death Commandos are cross-trained out the wazoo on different platforms.

In the League, the Defenders of Andurien and their successors, the Free Worlds Legionnaires, are noted for their tradition of combined arms warfare.

The Elsies have Winfield's Guards (later Winfield's Brigade), which is patterned after the Eridani Light Horse and their combined arms tactics.

I'm sure there are others.  FWIW...

[deathfrombeyond]

You can usually point to one or two units within each House that employ a combined arms doctrine.

The Cappie Warrior House regiments, for example, are typically composed of a battalion of mechs and a battalion of infantry.  And the Death Commandos are cross-trained out the wazoo on different platforms.

In the League, the Defenders of Andurien and their successors, the Free Worlds Legionnaires, are noted for their tradition of combined arms warfare.

The Elsies have Winfield's Guards (later Winfield's Brigade), which is patterned after the Eridani Light Horse and their combined arms tactics.

I'm sure there are others.  FWIW...

House Liao: St. Ives Janissaries
House Davion: Ceti Hussars
House Kurita: If I had to pick one, I'd go with the Ryuken.
ComStar: The Com Guards ;D

[CrazyGrasshopper]

House Kurita: If I had to pick one, I'd go with the Ryuken.

Arkab Legion. They should not probably count, though.

[Kidd]

Arkab Legion. They should not probably count, though.

Why not? They're more loyal than the Isle of Skye, or half the Free Worlds League ::)

[Jellico]

There isn't a faction in the game that wouldn't go pure Mech/ASF/BA if they could.

I am very suspicious of the Hanse RCT. It comes from an era made to make Hanse look good when his great strategic insight was to mass his forces in an age when people used small raiding forces.

In this context the RCT looks more like padding out numbers with tanks.

[Death by Lasers]

 This has been a topic I've been reevaluating and researching lately so here is my shot at it.  I use to think that all the successor states basically used something akin to RCTs but the more I read into it the less it looked that way. In fact it looks like the different states have very different strategies when it comes to deciding what they bring to the front.

  The Davions have the most combined-arms heavy doctrine by a large margin as their RCT armor brigades and later LCTs are unique in the IS.  It takes a lot of transportation assets to move an RCT but Davion makes up for this by placing large number of mechs in March Militias that, according to the Davion field manual, have extremely limited organic transport and are reliant on a small pool of Jumpships and Dropships controlled by the march lord to move as opposed to the front line formations that have organic Dropship and occasionally Jumpship support.  How fleet assets are assigned is a big deal considering Dropships cost more than twice the price of the units they carry.   

  The transport bottleneck means that in practice, in situations where Davion can't bring superior force to bear, the RCTs tend to get ganged up on by pairs of enemy regiments like in FedSuns/Combine skirmish during the Fedcom Civil War.  RCTs are usually big and bad enough that they can handle this but it does mean that Davion is frequently outnumbered in mechs.  In these situations Davion tends to prefer the flexibility that comes from having Hovercraft, VTOLs, and artillery than larger numbers of mechs.  It should also be noted that Davion tends to supplement its front line RCTs with mercenaries and independent mech regiments bringing the ratio of mechs to armor down to a little under 2 or 1.5 tanks to 1 mech in practice rather than the 3 to 1 ratio seen in large RCTs.

  Steiner took up the Davion system in the FedCom days but had proportionally fewer of its line units as RCTs.  From the Lyran Alliance field manuals it seemed that Steiner was cutting corners with upgraded and padding out the conventional and aerospace assets of its RCTs in favor of upgrading its mechs.  Before Steiner took up RCTs it would combine its mech regiments with at least three regiments of supporting conventional units, which is not too different than the way the other successor states do it.

  Marik, Liao, Kurita, and most of the periphery and minor powers take a more mech centric approach and for the most part keep their conventional assets assigned to planetary garrisons.  This isn't to say they have less armored regiments overall or are even less skilled than Davion's, the CapCon field manual specifically says their armor crews are better trained than most others, but that they tend to assign their scarce fleet transportation assets to their mechs forces over their conventional units.  On the offensive these houses usually only attach a battalion or regiment of armor and regiment or two of infantry to their mech forces and only occasionally attach independent armor regiments to their invasion forces.  The Combine field manual specifically says they that it is unusual for the Combine to detach armor regiments for offensive operations and the fluff material backs this up.  From the fluff it looks like both the FWLM and the CCAF also only occasionally attach independent armor regiments to their offensive operations and prefer to attack with mostly mech assets.

  Of all these houses the Combine stands out in its field manual as being the least combined arms with regards to infantry and armor and the manual even states them as being sluggish with regards to the adoption of battle armor.  However, the Combine does make great use of air power and proportionally has the highest ratio of Aerospace fighters to ground forces of the five houses.  Comparatively Marik tends to have more infantry as their infantry regiments are double strength.  Their very formidable and prolific battle armor assets tend to back this up.  The Cappellans don't stand out much with regards to conventional but, if you read the unit fluffs in their field manual, they do tend to pad out their conventional infantry and armor assets with lots of artillery. 

  The clans have their own system of combined arms with the "typical" cluster having 3 mech trinaries, 1 elemental trinary, and 1 aerospace trinary.  I say "typical" because many clans vary these schema a little one way or another.  If you add a command star of mechs and make one of the trinaries a supernova trinary you get 50 mechs, 30 elemental points, and 30 aerospace fighters.  This means the clans have an extremely high ratio of airpower to land forces.  Even those clusters that skimp on airpower and only have a binary of 20 fighters still have a higher ratio than any successor state.  This doesn't seem to come up much in the novels but a single clan cluster has, with the tech difference, more airpower than a Davion RCT.

  The Comguards don't seem to have any independent armor regiments but they do have some armor in their divisions.  A Comguard division on average tends to be a regiment mechs, a couple companies of armor, a regiment of infantry, and two wings of ASF.  Proportionally this is pretty similar overall to what the Combine brings with their mech assets but the guards spice things up by mixing their assets down the small unit level.  I should also add that the Cappellans also like to mix armor and mechs on a small scale with their demi-lances and demi-companies that are mixed armor and mech formations.

[deathfrombeyond]

There isn't a faction in the game that wouldn't go pure Mech/ASF/BA if they could.

I am very suspicious of the Hanse RCT. It comes from an era made to make Hanse look good when his great strategic insight was to mass his forces in an age when people used small raiding forces.

In this context the RCT looks more like padding out numbers with tanks.

O0

It seems like the metric that many people use for how "combined arms" a faction is by looking at Field Manual regiment write ups,  counting how many non 'Mech or aerospace units are attached, and calling it a day.

I would daresay that those factions that combine arms at a much lower level than Real Life corps level (which is what a Davion RCT approaches) are much better practitioners of combined arms warfare than the Federated Suns.

Factions like the Capellan Confederation, with their augmented lances and companies. Factions like the Com Guards, which combine armor and infantry below the company level.

I haven't seen any canon evidence that Davion combines arms at such a low level outside of special examples like the Combat Commands of the Ceti Hussars.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

deathfrombeyond is right. I think, we should distinguish between "heavy on combat vehicles" and "heavy on combined arms." Davions are heavy on combat vehicles for sure, but do they use real combined arms tactics, apart from the mentioned regiments?

For me a Capellan augmented lance is the combined arms formation. Capellans developed this tactics during the Jihad. Since Fa Shih was mentioned, I recon you are setting a game during the late Civil War or very early Jihad. So, the question...

[Kidd]

All the Successor States practice combined arms whether they are organised in RCTs or not. Its just on a sliding scale of "combinedness" like IRL the USMC, US Army, and (for example) the British Army.

USMC forms combined units of an infantry battalion, armour and artillery support, helicopters and a handful of fighters operating from a few Navy ships. They train and fight much more closely together than most other units.

US Army Combined Arms battalions form combined units of 2 infantry companies and 2 tank companies, supported by brigade artillery. They will call on Army Aviation and USAF squadrons for heli and fast jet support. Usually all the ground units come from the same Division.

British Army (and most other armies) form battlegroups by taking an infantry battalion, and "attaching" to it tank, IFV, militia etc companies according to whoever's the ready/available unit.

They all fight "combined", but to different degrees.

[Spinosapper]

I happened to be going through the old House Steiner source book and it very briefly mentions a Kuritan commander using light tanks with mobile mechs to, "... run rings around Commonwealth defenders..." during one of their objective raids in the 2830s.  It doesn't say if it is used elsewhere or again though. 

I'll have to check the House Kurita book sometime to see if it elaborates on it. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If one house has to to be the worst at integrating mechs and conventional forces, Kurita is probably it.  They use more conventional forces than mechs like everyone else, but they do tend to use conventionals as cannon fodder to soften opponents before sending in the samurai piloting mechs.

However there are always exceptions.  Kurita has a major academy dedicated to promoting combined arms, and privileged/spoiled mechwarrior commanders who treat conventionals as his mechs' expendible support exist in every house army.

[ajcbm]

Other than the Ceti Hussars, I have yet seen any fluff that mixes Battlemechs, tanks and infantry together in the AFFS. Just because an RCT has so much doesn't mean that they are deployed tactically in combined arms formations.

[Colt Ward]

One of the Davion Guards units does it against a retreating Jaguar force during Bulldog, in fact IIRC the CO is Kai's old girlfriend.

The Capellan Solution books had a mixed armor/mech force get wiped out on Nashua, the POV character there stumbled across them in his JED.

[Death by Lasers]

  If you look at the NAIS War Atlas battle maps it is clear that the all of the faction mix their units as armored and mech companies are fighting right next to each other.  Sure Davion doesn't mix mechs and armor into the same lance but they do jumble up their mech and armor companies and battalions in larger battles as NAIS War Atlas shows.  Overall I would say that Davion combined arms is a lot more flexible than the organizational structure would suggest as Kidd points out.

  Another thing the NAIS Atlas illustrates is that not every faction regularly uses combined arms, even Davion frequently uses mech only forces when their isn't an RCT involved.   For example during the Combine counter offensive, on Harrow's Sun, Wapakoneta, Glenmora, Northwind, Galtor, Klathandu IV, Breed, and David they brought only mech regiments, it was only on Deshler that the Combined attached twenty infantry and armor regiments.  So in 8 out of 9 assaults the Combine brought primarily mech forces.  The NAIS Atlas is pretty thorough so I doubt their are invisible armor units not mentioned especially since the Combine Field manual explicitly states it is unusual for the Combine to attach armor to their offensive operations.  Simply put many factions mostly use armor as static planetary defense forces and only attach small conventional auxiliaries to their mech forces.

P.S.  It looks like the Cappellans actually used a decent amount of armor and infantry in their counter attacks as opposed to Draconians who made mainly mech attacks.

[Kovax]

The periphery states also seem to rely heavily on combined arms, if only because Battlemechs are in short supply.  I seem to recall vaguely that one particular Outworlds Alliance planetary garrison was listed as only having a lance of bug 'Mechs, plus several companies of vehicles and infantry.  That's about as "combined arms" as it gets, where the 'Mechs are mainly there to support the vehicles, rather than the reverse.  Then again, 'Mechwarriors in the OA get very little in the way of attention and prestige compared to in other factions: Aerospace is the primary military branch.  You can't take over a planet if you can't reach it alive.

As for offensive and defensive use, I don't know that the OA actually conducted any "offensive" actions during the later parts of the Succession Wars; it was all they could do to hang on to most of what they already had, and even that wasn't going too well for a while.

[Wrangler]

Pre-Jihad Combined Arms is bit of a mix bag depending on what faction your talking about. Others have gone over many things that have been done in the past.  I'm just going tag on what i've read.  I'm excluding Word of Blake/Com Guard because their setup has always been one for or another combined arms and frankly very flexible with their 6-Unit formations.

Lyran / Davion typical regiments before and after used RCT model, which had attached regiments / battalions working with their BattleMechs.   Free Worlds League was not as big on doing that all the time, where the Capellans frontline units did, but they had attached conventional regimental units by the 3060s.   

The Capellans properly were 2nd best Combined Arms users (not counting Ceti Hussars) behind Comstar, where they went more mix force on company size before they weren't.   Also, during this time Reinforced lances started to appear if you look at Field Manual: Capellan Confederation notes Mixed-Units Augmentation, which tags on Augmented Lances with 2 additional vehicles or Battle Armors per Mech Lance. which i found is my favorite form of combined arms, because you have tanks give you heavier huff while you still have Mechs in the mix without being out-shined.    Also, Augmented Armor Lancers get reverse sort setup, where you get for combat vehicle and two Mechs.   This was expanded more after the Jihad.

[Hellraiser]

Which Spheroid factions actually use combined arms heavily? This before the Jihad and Republic era, because those mix things up a bit.


Finally, if Cappies really do use combined arms, what vehicles do they use?   .......i can't actually name anything homegrown by them. I guess they're sticking with common designs? 

1st off, EVERYONE, uses combined arms to some degree.
No faction can afford to go Mechs only for all but the smallest units.
Nearly every Mech regiment has SOME attached forces for security, recon, support, etc etc.

That said, some factions are noted as training their units to cooperate together & operating w/ much larger conventional portions.


ComGuards  (Every Lvl-3 is a combined arms force, some L-II's are combined arms)
FedSuns (RCTs = 2nd SW & later)
LyrCom  (RCTs = 4th SW & later)
FWL  (Legionnaires designed to act similar to RCTs but w/ less Armor = 3040's & later)
CapCon (Augmented Formations came about in the 3060's)


The DC & the Periphery don't seem to show a major inclination for combined arms formations that I can think of, but as I said, this doesn't mean they lack infantry/tanks, only that they don't favor training them for close deployment operations.



Noted CapCon vehicle production lines from memory.
Common = Vedette, Maxim, Ontos
Exclusive = Regulator, Po
Liao Variants = Condor, Minion

[Hellraiser]

I am very suspicious of the Hanse RCT. It comes from an era made to make Hanse look good when his great strategic insight was to mass his forces in an age when people used small raiding forces.

In this context the RCT looks more like padding out numbers with tanks.

Wasn't the FedSuns RCT created in the 2nd SW by Melissa Davion a couple hundred years before Hanse was born?

[Hellraiser]

deathfrombeyond is right. I think, we should distinguish between "heavy on combat vehicles" and "heavy on combined arms." Davions are heavy on combat vehicles for sure, but do they use real combined arms tactics, apart from the mentioned regiments?

For me a Capellan augmented lance is the combined arms formation. Capellans developed this tactics during the Jihad. Since Fa Shih was mentioned, I recon you are setting a game during the late Civil War or very early Jihad. So, the question...

Other than the Ceti Hussars, I have yet seen any fluff that mixes Battlemechs, tanks and infantry together in the AFFS. Just because an RCT has so much doesn't mean that they are deployed tactically in combined arms formations.

The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

No, its not ELH Mixed Lances level, really only the Ceti Hussars & Comstar do that.
Even the Cappies aren't mixing "lances" its more they are reinforcing them w/ support units to create mixed companies.

[The Eagle]

Ontos is actually produced in the FWL, on Shiro III in the Duchy of Andurien.  But Grumman exports it to anybody who wants it.

[Hellraiser]

Ontos is actually produced in the FWL, on Shiro III in the Duchy of Andurien.  But Grumman exports it to anybody who wants it.

I thought there were multiple factories, 1 in the FC & 1 in the CC,  I swore I've seen it produced elsewhere.

EDIT.

Found it, another factory on Nanking & both were originally owned by the CC before being lost to the FWL & FC respectively.

So its common in all 3 realms

[ajcbm]

The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

No, its not ELH Mixed Lances level, really only the Ceti Hussars & Comstar do that.
Even the Cappies aren't mixing "lances" its more they are reinforcing them w/ support units to create mixed companies.

err... No. An Augmented Lance is exactly what it says. A Combined-Arms Lance from the very start. They are not reinforcement.

fyi... the CCAF have Augmented Regiments by 3145.

[Wrangler]

I forgot about Duchy of Audurien.  The 1st Defenders of Andurien had seriously reinforced Regiment.  In 3025 they were listed as reinforced regiment, but they had a really odd structured force. Essently the reinforcements were 26 additional lances consisting of combat vehicles, artillery batteries, and aerospace fighters. Due to the age of the source book it mentioned, it didn't break down like later Field Manuals into attached independent regiments/battalions/fighter wings/etc.  These conventional reinforcements were directly attached to Mech regiment and used solely from what source info was to protect capital.

[deathfrombeyond]

The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

Source?

[Kidd]

Source?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regimental_combat_team
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_command

[Death by Lasers]

  I would also add that in the FedCom Civil War sourcebook RCTs would sometimes detach subunits to different planets and these were invariably mixed composition units.  Plus, in the NAIS Atlas, they frequently show RCTs dividing their mech, infantry, and armor units into company or battalion sized components and mixing them together.  From this it would appear that a Davion RCT functions at least somewhat similar to a real life RCT.

[deathfrombeyond]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regimental_combat_team
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_command

I was more looking for a source from some BattleTech book, rather than how real life RCTs/Combat Commands operate.

I mean, a Star League Division is a much different animal than a US Army/USMC division, right? At the very least, a Star League Division has organic fixed wing support. As I understand it, a US Army division does not have organic fixed wing support outside of the Airborne divisions.

[Kidd]

I was more looking for a source from some BattleTech book, rather than how real life RCTs/Combat Commands operate.

I mean, a Star League Division is a much different animal than a US Army/USMC division, right? At the very least, a Star League Division has organic fixed wing support. As I understand it, a US Army division does not have organic fixed wing support outside of the Airborne divisions.

Oh sorry I misunderstood.

"Combat command" in Battletech fiction/sourcebooks is sometimes interchangeable with "task force", but can also refer specifically to the Federated Suns' Ceti Hussars regiments which operate Combat Commands supposedly inspired by Star League RCTs; each Fed Suns-style RCT breaks its Mech, armour, infantry etc. forces into thirds and fight as 3 combined-arms units.

Though as noted, since practically all Successor States practice combined-arms to different extents, the uniqueness of the Ceti Hussars' Combat Commands is simply that they train and fight in this manner more than other regiments do.

[deathfrombeyond]

Oh sorry I misunderstood.

"Combat command" in Battletech fiction/sourcebooks is sometimes interchangeable with "task force", but can also refer specifically to the Federated Suns' Ceti Hussars regiments which operate Combat Commands supposedly inspired by Star League RCTs; each Fed Suns-style RCT breaks its Mech, armour, infantry etc. forces into thirds and fight as 3 combined-arms units.

Though as noted, since practically all Successor States practice combined-arms to different extents, the uniqueness of the Ceti Hussars' Combat Commands is simply that they train and fight in this manner more than other regiments do.

Apologies, I should have been more specific. 

I was looking for some BattleTech source that supports the claim that the RCTs of the Federated Suns canonically all have Combat Commands that integrate armor and infantry to 'Mech forces below the battalion level as claimed by the following quote.

I mean, otherwise, this statement about Combat Commands is just moving the goalposts to non canon status, right?

The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

[Kidd]

I was looking for some BattleTech source that supports the claim that the RCTs of the Federated Suns canonically all have Combat Commands that integrate armor and infantry to 'Mech forces below the battalion level as claimed by the following quote.

Well, uh... basically all Successor State Mech regiments operate with attached units. Fedsuns RCTs dictate who those attached units are, so the units are more familiar with each other and work more effectively/efficiently together. That much is certainly canon.

The nature of BT combat is that combined arms is definitely the way to go, and we have quite a few instances in the fiction of RCTs fielding task forces of Mech lances supported by tanks and infantry. Mechs aside*, the various combat arms in BT don't usually fight in homogenous individual battalions, so it can be deduced if not explicitly stated that the original statement is correct.

*due to their superior mobility, firepower and survivability combined

[deathfrombeyond]

Well, uh... basically all Successor State Mech regiments operate with attached units. Fedsuns RCTs dictate who those attached units are, so the units are more familiar with each other and work more effectively/efficiently together. That much is certainly canon.

With all due respect, if it is canon, where is the canon source that says so? Moreover, if Federated Suns RCTs routinely operate in terms of combined arms Combat Commands, why are there separate commanders for the infantry, armor, aerospace and 'Mech components of an RCT?

I mean, I can cite where the Ceti Hussar/St. Ives Janissaries Combat Commands come from. I can cite where augmented lances and augmented companies come from. I can cite where Com Guard Level IIs aren't necessarily pure formations.

I don't think I've ever seen a canon source that says that the 'Mech forces of a Federated Suns RCT routinely combine arms below the battalion/company level.

[Archangel]

The AFFC/AFFS deployed two kinds of combat commands - permanent and temporary/adhoc.  Only the Ceti Hussars formed permanent combat commands, the rest of the military use temporary combat commands which were organized according to need/availability.  For example, during the FCCW, the 5th Donegal Guards RCT deployed a combat command to Kentares IV to secure the planet in Katherine's name.  In instances like that, the combat command could alternatively be called a task force.  On occasion, a combat command will be formed to participate in a campaign and will be so large as to require that a Field Marshal be put in command.

While there are numerous instances of RCTs deploying units drawn from the different branches into the field (for a patrol, securing a checkpoint, a raid, etc), I don't recall them being called a combat command although I guess technically the term could apply to them as well.

[SCC]

With all due respect, if it is canon, where is the canon source that says so? Moreover, if Federated Suns RCTs routinely operate in terms of combined arms Combat Commands, why are there separate commanders for the infantry, armor, aerospace and 'Mech components of an RCT?

I mean, I can cite where the Ceti Hussar/St. Ives Janissaries Combat Commands come from. I can cite where augmented lances and augmented companies come from. I can cite where Com Guard Level IIs aren't necessarily pure formations.

I don't think I've ever seen a canon source that says that the 'Mech forces of a Federated Suns RCT routinely combine arms below the battalion/company level.

I think it goes back to original Davion source book, that's where RCT were first described.

[Hellraiser]

I was looking for some BattleTech source that supports the claim that the RCTs of the Federated Suns canonically all have Combat Commands that integrate armor and infantry to 'Mech forces below the battalion level as claimed by the following quote.

1.  That isn't what I was saying.
I said they used Combat Commands as a formation, not that they are permanent.

2.  Sources.  I'm not at my books at the minute, but, from memory.
Original House Davion Source Book talks about RCT regiments working & training together better than regular commands.
Historical: War of 3039 & FedCom Civil War both discuss temporary Combat Commands formed from sections of RCTs to operate directly together on the same mission.

Possibly even FM:FS mentions what a combat command is & how they use parts of an RCT temporarily.

Then as you stated, there is the Ceti Hussars who have taken temporary Combat Commands & made them the permanent formation for the unit.

[glitterboy2098]

everytime we see a planetary assualt (not just a raid), we see fighters, artillery, armor, and infantry being brought along with the mechs. even by forces that don't have RCT's.

what seems to set the Davion RCT's apart is that they permanently attach the non-mech forces as part of a single constant command structure. this gives the RCT's better experiance in operating together, and ensures the force always has a sufficient mix (and training level).

prior to RCT's you assembled such formations on an adhoc basis based on what was available in that theater and time for the operation. this meant that many of the components would not be experienced in operating together, and you could not always be assured that all the components have sufficent skill levels and training in combined operations.

(it is telling that the Combine's response to the davion RCT's, at least the one spearheaded by Theodore Kurita's training program, was to train all their forces in such tactics, rather than create new units. though his was a grassroots program, and Takashi Kurita was wary of creating any more such formations other than the Ryuken, which he directly controlled.)

[Death by Lasers]

  True, although I think the number of conventional units used by non-RCT factions is sometimes overblown.  From the old House Steiner Book the Commonwealth uses about 3+ for every mech regiment, and in FM:FWL we get 3 for every mech regiment.  In the First Succession war book about 3 to 1 is the "normal" ratio (for example the Combine lead an offensive with 50 mech regiments and three times that number in infantry, armor, and aerospace), in the NAIS War Atlas the Combine made several attacks with seemingly only mech regiments and in the Combine book they lead several attacks with mech dominated task forces.  In the Clan Invasion the Combine rarely used independent armor forces (other than militia) to support their mech regiments. 

  Compare this with the RCTs 9 to 1 ratio of mechs to aerospace, artillery, infantry, and tanks and you get a sense of how support heavy RCTs are.  Although in all fairness RCTs are usually teamed with independent or mercenary mech regiments.

  Other than situations where a mech regiment is backing up a large planetary defense force my guess is the "usual" (quotation marks to emphases that there is a lot of variation with some forces having more or less support) task force will have a regiment of mechs, a wing of fighters, a battalion of mixed armor, a battalion of mobile artillery, and a couple regiments of infantry.

[Hellraiser]

  True, although I think the number of conventional units used by non-RCT factions is sometimes overblown.  From the old House Steiner Book the Commonwealth uses about 3+ for every mech regiment, and in FM:FWL we get 3 for every mech regiment.  In the First Succession war book about 3 to 1 is the "normal" ratio (for example the Combine lead an offensive with 50 mech regiments and three times that number in infantry, armor, and aerospace), in the NAIS War Atlas the Combine made several attacks with seemingly only mech regiments and in the Combine book they lead several attacks with mech dominated task forces.  In the Clan Invasion the Combine rarely used independent armor forces (other than militia) to support their mech regiments. 

  Compare this with the RCTs 9 to 1 ratio of mechs to aerospace, artillery, infantry, and tanks and you get a sense of how support heavy RCTs are.  Although in all fairness RCTs are usually teamed with independent or mercenary mech regiments.

  Other than situations where a mech regiment is backing up a large planetary defense force my guess is the "usual" (quotation marks to emphases that there is a lot of variation with some forces having more or less support) task force will have a regiment of mechs, a wing of fighters, a battalion of mixed armor, a battalion of mobile artillery, and a couple regiments of infantry. 

The #'s aren't overblown, so much as, the method of use & the training together.

I don't think I've ever seen any faction noted as having more or less Tanks/Infantry in their military than any other, short of the Periphery & Militias all being short on Mechs/ASF.

The IS as a whole has over 5 Tanks for every Mech & assuming the FS is similar to the rest, over 14 Infantry Squads for every mech.


It just comes down to 2 things.
How often does XYZ faction use Infantry/Tanks on the Offensive?
How does XYZ faction use Conventionals & Mechs together?

But does XYZ nation hate their vehicles & leave them only defensive jobs, or do they give them offensive (glory) goals?   And if they do use them on the offensive, is it solo missions or are they deployed right next to the mechs? (RCTs)

[Death by Lasers]

  Oh yes I agree that roughly speaking the states probably have similar ratios of mech to convention regiments.  For example in the House Books (from the 80s) we know that the AFFS in 3025 had 118 regiments of mechs and over ten times that number in other regiments and that the FWLM had 60 mech regiments and 700 regiments of other units.  My main point being is that all the states don't necessarily use RCT style ratios when launching assaults and regulate their armor to mainly garrison duty.

  On the "five mech to tank" ratio though there is one thing.  I'm pretty sure the five-one ratio of armor to mechs you are referring to comes from FM Fed Suns although this number is a little deceptive.  FM Federated Suns divides the AFFS into four parts, the Regular Army (RCTs and independent line regiments), the Militia (planetary and march militias), Training Units, and Mercenaries.  According to the book the five to one number refers directly to the ratio of mechs to armor in the Regular Army and not to the entire AFFS.  Now apparently planetary militias are not part of the AFFS but March Militias are as they are included in the FM unlike the planetary militias.

  Using rough estimates (ie lots of rounding) for infantry, armor, and mechs (but not aeros as we aren't given complete data on these) the AFFS in FM:FS has about 50 Mech, 250 Armor, and 600 Infantry regiments in the Regular Army, 30 Mech, 60 Armor, and 150 Infantry regiments in the Militia, 10 Mech, 5 Armor, and 10 Infantry in Training Units, and 20 Mech, 10 Armor, and 20 Infantry in Mercenary Units.  This gives us a total of about 110 Battlemech, 325 Armor, and 790 Infantry Regiments for the AFFS or roughly ten conventional regiments per mech regiment.  This ratio matches that given in the Davion House Book that states that the AFFS has in 3025 118 Mech Regiments and a little over ten times that number in conventional units.

  It's somewhat of a moot point though because once you throw in the planetary militias the ratio would probably be bumped up to something approaching (or possibly exceeding) the five-to-one ratio anyway.

Edit: Corrected a typo.

[Kidd]

FYI

Standard Combat Command Compositions (3025), Interstellar Ops p.348

CCAF: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 2 Artillery battalions
DCMS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 3 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
AFFS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
FWLM: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 8 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
LCAF: 1 Mech, 5 Armour, 7 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion

[Death by Lasers]

FYI

Standard Combat Command Compositions (3025), Interstellar Ops p.348

  I own Interstellar Ops and know of the combat commands.  Interstellar ops uses The Combat Command System for simplification and gameplay purposes and it is an alternative to creating detailed armies (p. 348).  Personally I don't think every regiment (aside from mercs) having RCT style ancillary units with 9 or more support regiments matches the fluff very well but it's a fair enough source to make that claim with.

[SCC]

Detailed Armies doesn't work like that. Detailed Armies is the lists of all 'Mech units from books like 1SW.

Any wondering which set up is the most advantageous?

[ajcbm]

It should be noted that transportation is a major factor in any combined arms set up. I don't think it was an accident that the Powers That Be never mention how many Jumpships/Dropships each realm has available. How many regiments can you move with dedicated military transports? How many if civilian transports added? How long before the economy collapses?

[Hellraiser]

My main point being is that all the states don't necessarily use RCT style ratios when launching assaults and regulate their armor to mainly garrison duty.

Actually a lot of the older fluff stories will not that XYZ mech regiment attached with 3 support regiments or 10 support regiments.
The LCAF has a lot of notations like that, or 3 Mech Regiments supported by 30 Conventional Regiments, etc etc.
They used them, they just didn't have them permanently attached & cross-trained like the FS RCT does.

  On the "five mech to tank" ratio though there is one thing.  I'm pretty sure the five-one ratio of armor to mechs you are referring to comes from FM Fed Suns although this number is a little deceptive.  FM Federated Suns divides the AFFS into four parts, the Regular Army (RCTs and independent line regiments), the Militia (planetary and march militias), Training Units, and Mercenaries.  According to the book the five to one number refers directly to the ratio of mechs to armor in the Regular Army and not to the entire AFFS.  Now apparently planetary militias are not part of the AFFS but March Militias are as they are included in the FM unlike the planetary militias.

Actually the "over 5-1" comes from TRO 3067 vehicle section intro IIRC.
March Militias are part of the "Militias" but because they are full Mech Regiments assigned to a Region they get covered in the text w/ all other mech units.

AFFS in FM:FS has about 50 Mech, 250 Armor, and 300 Infantry regiments in the Regular Army, 30 Mech, 60 Armor, and 150 Infantry regiments in the Militia, 10 Mech, 5 Armor, and 10 Infantry in Training Units, and 20 Mech, 10 Armor, and 20 Infantry in Mercenary Units.  This gives us a total of about 110 Battlemech, 325 Armor, and 790 Infantry Regiments for the AFFS or roughly ten conventional regiments per mech regiment.  This ratio matches that given in the Davion House Book that states that the AFFS has in 3025 118 Mech Regiments and a little over ten times that number in conventional units.

Your going to be off a bit there.
Because Infantry is 2/3 of all military forces in the AFFS
So total the Mech, ASF, & Tanks, then Double that for Infantry.

I go with the following.
Per Mech "Marker/Unit"
Tanks are Over 5 but less than 6 times as common as Mechs, so 5.33-5.5
ASF Are less common than Mechs but the only ratio that I have ever found is that the FWL produces about 2 Fighters for every 3 Mechs.  So call it 0.5-0.67 ASF to account for less ease of repair.
Collectively its about 6 Vee/ASF to 1 Mech.
So 7 is the Non-Infantry total.
Double that for 14 more in Infantry.

If we put that into AFFS RCT terms you get the following.

1 Mech Regiment (RCT)
3.33 Armor/Artillery Regiments
5 Infantry Regiments
2 Fighter Wings
PLUS
2 Armor Regiments:  (See Below)
9 Infantry  Regiments  (Grouped into a pair of brigades of 4-5 Infantry Regiments & 1 Tank Regiment
2 Fighter Wings:  (Assigned to Fleet Command Groups or Planetary System Defense.)



Now account for roughly 50% of all Mech Regiments not being RCTs but still having that amount of Fighters, Vehicles, & Infantry to account for.
You start to see just where all those (3 Mech Regiments + 30 Conventional Regiments) lines come from in the books, or, where those lines about unattached fighter wings/regiments come in.
There are plenty of conventional brigades to go around to have some on offense supporting invasions while others are stiffening up defense on major worlds that rate more than just PUG/Militia for defense.


The FS RCT just takes a decent amount of support troops & trains them to operate closely together so that you get better tactical coordination when assaulting a planet in force.
You'll still likely have those conventional support brigades following on to assist in conquest & assimilation of the populace, but the RCT gives you a decent starting force trained to work side by side with big walking giants that might accidentally step on someone that isn't used to being around them.   :)

[Hellraiser]

FYI

Standard Combat Command Compositions (3025), Interstellar Ops p.348

CCAF: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 2 Artillery battalions
DCMS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 3 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
AFFS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
FWLM: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 8 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
LCAF: 1 Mech, 5 Armour, 7 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion

Interesting, this makes for a good example of all those "XYZ Mech Regiment supported by ABC Conventional Regiment" fluff lines.   Now there is an answer to "How many troops support an invasion?"

[Hellraiser]

It should be noted that transportation is a major factor in any combined arms set up. I don't think it was an accident that the Powers That Be never mention how many Jumpships/Dropships each realm has available. How many regiments can you move with dedicated military transports? How many if civilian transports added? How long before the economy collapses?

Its long been my opinion that most RCTs don't move the entire RCT in just Military Dropships.

Its far more efficient to move "Most" of the Mechs and "Some" of the Armor/Infantry in combat dropships & secure an LZ with that & bring the rest in on bulk cargo carriers.


"Sample RCT Transport Division"

Overlord
Union x3
Leopard x3
Excalibur
Triumph
Condor
Fury
Seeker
Avenger
Vengeance
Buccaneer
Mules  x3

Monolith
Invader  x3


The above force of 4 Jumpships & 18 Dropships shouldn't have too much difficulty moving an RCT 1-2 jumps across the boarder for an invasion and even contains an assault dropper & extra ASF wing to help clear the way to orbit.

A total of 96 Mechs can drop from orbit, 8 Companies, most of the Regiment, & more than enough to secure an LZ & destroy initial 1st wave targets.  (Radar, C3, Air Defenses, etc etc)

Even w/o a prepared LZ 3 battalions of tanks & an infantry company can be offloaded quickly in an open area with a 4th battalion & full Infantry battalion unloaded as soon as a runway is secure.
A 5th infantry company can be parachuting on another of those high priority 1st wave targets in support of a mech lance, etc etc.

Finally the 4 Cargo ships land & added regiments of Infantry, Tanks, Support Vehicles, & a few more companies of mechs off load & set up a base of operations.

With that beachhead made the Jumpers can move back to pick up an added wave of dropships & more troops.

I assume in the above, that 1 Invader, 2 Mules, & the Buccaneer are Civilian ships & gives us a good example of why sustained offensives need the merchant marine help & why the economy takes a hit when they do.

[Death by Lasers]

  Actually the 5-1 ratio is not for the entire AFFS because the book specifically says that is the ratio for the regular army (FM: Federated Suns, 23).  Also, in 3025 the AFFS in total was composed of "119 mech regiments" (notice the source includes march militias and mercenaries as a part of the AFFS like FM:FS does) and "more than ten times that number in aerospace fighters, infantry, and artillery" (House Davion: Federated Suns, 159).  Your 20+ conventional regiments per 1 mech regiment is massively off from canon.  Furthermore, the ratios of conventionals to mech regiments in invasions is usually much closer to 4 to 1 rather than 20 to 1 if you comb through the sourcebooks.  You only see large conventional compliments beyond this ratio in rare cases or with very large planetary militias like on Tikinov.

  I do like the idea that RCTs rarely have transport for all there conventionals though.  This is mentioned occasionally in canon, for example at Twycross the 10th Lyran dropped with only its mechs and at Huntress all the RCTs brought only a token armor force.

P.S.  I combed through TRO:3067 and under the vehicles section it states "conventional vehicles outnumber BattleMechs at a ratio of between three and five to one" (TRO 3067, pg.6).  So, even with planetary militias tanks only outnumber mechs somewhere between 3 and 5 to 1 in the Inner Sphere in aggregate.  Awesome source O0

[Hellraiser]

Also, in 3025 the AFFS in total was composed of "119 mech regiments" (notice the source includes march militias and mercenaries as a part of the AFFS like FM:FS does) and "more than ten times that number in aerospace fighters, infantry, and artillery" (House Davion: Federated Suns, 159).  Your 20+ conventional regiments per 1 mech regiment is massively off from canon. 

You do realize that 20 is "More than 10" right?
That statement from 3025 does not invalidate the additional math from TRO3067 & FM:FS

Furthermore, the ratios of conventionals to mech regiments in invasions is usually much closer to 4 to 1 rather than 20 to 1 if you comb through the sourcebooks.  You only see large conventional compliments beyond this ratio in rare cases or with very large planetary militias like on Tikinov.

Not every conventional unit is going to go on the Offensive.
Any smart commander is going to leave garrison troops on his own worlds.
Or do you think that every world is stripped of every last infantryman when someone goes on the offensive?
Tikonov had, IIRC 8 Full/Partial Mech Regiments & 80 Conventional Regiments.
So a 10-1 Ratio for that important world.  But the CapCon still had other Conventional Regiments on all nearby worlds even if they didn't rate a Mech force.  That would be where the rest of that 20-ish to 1 ratio would be deployed.

P.S.  I combed through TRO:3067 and under the vehicles section it states "conventional vehicles outnumber BattleMechs at a ratio of between three and five to one" (TRO 3067, pg.6).  So, even with planetary militias tanks only outnumber mechs somewhere between 3 and 5 to 1 in the Inner Sphere in aggregate.  Awesome source O0

That might not be the source that I'm thinking of, I'm going by memory, but if it is then the Regular Army has a higher than normal level of tanks which I'm fine with.

So lets rework that at a ratio of 4 to 1 then to split the difference between 3 & 5 with ASF at 0.5 gives you 5.5 Regiments of Non-Infantry.
With infantry being 2/3 of the regular army we get 11 Infantry Regiments.

So instead of 1BM to 0.67AS to 5.33CV to 14 Infantry, we get, 1BM to 0.5AS, to 4CV to 11INF.
This drops the Non Mech troops to Mechs from 20-1 down to 15.5 to 1.

We know that in Militias the % of Infantry goes up, & this makes sense since the Reg Army is 5+ Tanks per Mech while the IS whole is only 3-5 (4) per mech, so those extra tanks would be cut out of the Milita ranks dropping them to a "Just under 3-1" rate or a 1BM-0.5AS-2.9CV-11Inf
 (We are not actually required to have 11 Inf Regiments as just 9 would still be a boost over the 2/3rds rate quote, but we are not limited to 11 either & it could be quite a bit higher)

[Death by Lasers]

  Again, the 5 to 1 ratio is for the Regular Army which is a part of the AFFS but not the whole of the AFFS, reread my original post for clarification.  The infantry outnumbering other regiments is also explicitly stated as being for the Regular Army not the entire AFFS.  My calculations are based entirely on the verbatim description of AFFS in FM:FS and happily coincides with the outline of AFFS in the old FS handbook.

  It should also be noted that this rough ratio of 10+ conventionals to 1 mech regiment is also true of FWLM (60 mech, 700 conventional) from the old FWL House Book and the FRR military (15 mech, 191 conventional) from the 20 year update.  Implying a source actually means more than 20-1 when it states more than 10-1 is arguing semantics while ignoring intent.  When a source says "more than 10" they usually mean "a little more than 10" not 20 or 1,000 more than 10.

  As to your point that "not every conventional unit is going to go on the offensive" we are actually on the same page on that one.  I don't know who you are debating this this with but it isn't me. 

[truetanker]

Hellraiser, given your example:

Would you agree to the following for the Hegemony forces?

3x Black Eagle ( 36 Mechs )
1x Black Eagle Original ( 36 Light Tanks )
3x Black Eagle Original ( 36 Heavy Tanks )
3x Czar ( 3 Small craft, 108,000 tons of Cargo for fuel, spare parts and ammo as well as medical, 108 Infantry Platoons )
2x DroST IIa (( 2445 ) 4 Small craft, 4,422 tons cargo for tanks and 20 Infantry Platoons )
3x DroST IIb (( 2445 ) 24 Small craft )
1x Jumbo ( 2 Small craft, 101,331 tons cargo for fuel, spare parts and ammo as well as medical )

4x Liberty- class Jumpships
22x Ares Mark 1 Attack, small craft
11x Ares Mark 1 Cargo, small craft

TT

Or should it have more tanks?

[SCC]

Its long been my opinion that most RCTs don't move the entire RCT in just Military Dropships.

Its far more efficient to move "Most" of the Mechs and "Some" of the Armor/Infantry in combat dropships & secure an LZ with that & bring the rest in on bulk cargo carriers.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. First and most importantly infantry must be carried in a bay, there's ways around this, but they both mean you have to devote more tonnage to transporting the the infantry.

Right on to vehicles then. There's no reason NOT to transport 50 and 100 ton vehicles by bay and once you account for crews and maintenance staff a very good reason to do so that might also apply to vehicles 5 tons lighter then that.

So outside of that there's no hard and fast things you can say apart from the fact that 'Mechs will always require bigger bays then vehicles. Of course there is the problem that 'Mechs that twice as long to unload from cargo.

[Colt Ward]

Not true . . . when you start getting into moving the RCT.

Using a single Jumbo you could transport 7 armor regiments made up of 100t tanks along with about 2500t of food, fuel, parts and ammo.  And no regiment is made up solely of 100t tanks.  Yes the crews would have to be on another DS.  Yes the techs would have to be on another DS.  But that is WAY better than using 21 Triumphs to move the vehicles, and the name of the game when moving a RCT at any point is to use as few DS collars as possible since that is the bottleneck.  Even a combat movement will have just the first wave in combat transports.  Follow-on forces, support elements and supplies will be moved in cargo carriers rather than combat transports though they will need escorts of carriers and gunships.

As far as supporting movement of large bodies of infantry, armor crews and tech/support battalions, its why you have staging worlds like Palryma (or wherever Caleb got his clock cleaned) because you use 'free' life support.  We really do not have DS liners or stuff for conversions to liners (berthing containers?) which is what would/should be used to move large numbers of bodies.  Heck, it should be possible to put 'life support' containers on cargo dropships to increase that capacity.

[Hellraiser]

Hellraiser, given your example:

Would you agree to the following for the Hegemony forces?

3x Black Eagle ( 36 Mechs )
1x Black Eagle Original ( 36 Light Tanks )
3x Black Eagle Original ( 36 Heavy Tanks )
3x Czar ( 3 Small craft, 108,000 tons of Cargo for fuel, spare parts and ammo as well as medical, 108 Infantry Platoons )
2x DroST IIa (( 2445 ) 4 Small craft, 4,422 tons cargo for tanks and 20 Infantry Platoons )
3x DroST IIb (( 2445 ) 24 Small craft )
1x Jumbo ( 2 Small craft, 101,331 tons cargo for fuel, spare parts and ammo as well as medical )

4x Liberty- class Jumpships
22x Ares Mark 1 Attack, small craft
11x Ares Mark 1 Cargo, small craft

TT

Or should it have more tanks?

Question TT,  are you attempting to use early Terran DS to move a FS style RCT?
Or is this for a Terran RCT?   Or just a single Independent Regiment?

Either way I think 4 Czars is too much Infantry for establishing a beachead/LZ.
Not that I would complain about it having them, I just might want more Mechs available.
For the Single AFFS mech Regiment of the RCT, I gave a list that can drop 8 out of the 11 companies from orbit if needed w/ only 3 companies in cargo storage.
I think I'd cut the # of Drost & Czar DS in half to get more Mechs/Tanks in the 1st wave.

[truetanker]

I got 3 Czar and 2 DroST, 4,422 tons of tanks. This is the Hegemony after all.

So more Infantry, 128 platoons,  and since mechs are kinda a secret anyways, only a Battalion's worth!

I really don't have any Aerosupport...

TT

[Hellraiser]

I'm going to have to disagree with this. First and most importantly infantry must be carried in a bay, there's ways around this, but they both mean you have to devote more tonnage to transporting the the infantry.

Right on to vehicles then. There's no reason NOT to transport 50 and 100 ton vehicles by bay and once you account for crews and maintenance staff a very good reason to do so that might also apply to vehicles 5 tons lighter then that.

I think your missing my point SCC.
The issue is military droppers are not very large & we are talking about moving a big force in a limited # of DS/JS.

A single Mule is larger than 90% of the Military ships out there & it devotes less space than most of them to Engines, Armor, & Weapons.   Which means it has LOTS of space in bulk cargo.
Just 1 of its 3 cargo decks can hold over 2 battalions of Infantry in Steerage class quarters that have good Food Consumption rates.
The same space using Infantry Bays could hold 20 Regiments  (w/o the food they would need)
Either way that is more than a condor & its just 1 of 3 cargo bays.

2 Companies of 100 Ton tanks (4 of 50 tonners) can fit in another bay with plenty of space left over for their crews & the extra food needed.

But none of this food will really be huge amounts because I wasn't suggesting moving to & from Sian to Strana Mechty in bulk cargo.
I was saying you can use that method to make a single jump across the boarder to attack from Thorin to Dieron.

Yes, Military Bays are more efficient for sure, but Military Dropships are not.

So you move a big enough force to secure a port via combat drop & 1st wave & then the 2nd wave offloads from bulk haulers.