Author Topic: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018  (Read 22082 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2017
« Reply #60 on: 31 December 2017, 12:00:06 »
Game is this coming Saturday.


Quote
Campaign Game
Scenario: Fighting Withdrawal
Location: Game Depot, January 6 @ 1pm
Executive Summary:
The enemy's raid was not a great success, but it did enough damage to your airbase's defenses to make it untenable. Your dropships have had to pull back out of range of the enemy's artillery, but loaded as they were your more mobile combat units will have to make their own way out.

Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 2500 (only applies for forces not submitted at least 48 hours before the game)
Unit max: 2 (applies to all forces; carried infantry does not count against this total)
Victory Condition (500 SP): Get at least half of all your table's player forces off the far side of the map. If time runs out, escape probability for units still on the board will be judged by the other team's GM. If more than six rounds have been completed, any units that were ruled to have escaped late will be unavailable for the next battle to simulate extra damage.
Salvage: None. (Fallen allied units may be recoverable with a future mission.)
Next Mission: Raid (recovering lost units), Deep Strike (attack artillery), Stand-up fight (stall enemy advance)

Intel: If you move fast enough, you'll be able to punch through the blocking force before the attackers pursuing you can catch up and crush you. Bringing units that can travel 36 hexes in 6 rounds is highly recommended; carried infantry is probably a poor choice, unless you intend to drop them off as a sacrificial blocking force.

Force Composition: See the campaign rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing

Force Composition, Short Version: Create a mercenary force according to the rules (or ask the GM for one). Pick two units from that force to bring to the battle. (If you submit these to the GM by Thursday there is no BV limit. After that, max 2500 BV.)

Terrain: The battle will be played on a 4'x6' table (2" hexes) with minimal forestation. The players will move on to one short edge, and attempt to escape off the other. If turnout is high we will split players evenly between two tables.

Campaign Update: Airfield Defense (Dec 9)
Joel's Table:  (Alex, Robert, Jason J, plus GM Dennis)
Enemy got <40% past = 180 SP
Salvage:
Black Hawk KU E (50% = 900) [Jason J; 2 games]
Perseus P1 B (25% = 563) [Alex; 3 games]
Mongoose MON-66 (50% = 250) [Robert; 2 games]

Dennis's Table:  (James, Jared, John D)
Enemy got <70% past = 90 SP
Salvage: None

1713 Total SP in Salvage / 6 Players = 285 SP Each.

Alex, Robert, Jason J, plus GM Dennis get 465 SP each.
James, Jared, John D get 375 SP each

Repairs: My notes are missing player damage. Please email me either a summary of your damage, or use the campaign rules to determine the number of games your units will spend in the repair bay and send that.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Joel47

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2017
« Reply #61 on: 31 December 2017, 18:12:51 »
Updated version, to avoid the possibility of a "sprint 3 turns and go home" scenario.

Scenario Basics: (Note force composition and scoring changes from original!)
BV limit: 2500 (only applies for forces not submitted at least 48 hours before the game)
Unit max: 4, at least 50% mechs.
Victory Condition (up to 400 SP): Get 100 SP per full 25% of all your table's player forces off the far side of the map.
Salvage: None. (Fallen allied units may be recoverable with a future mission.)
Individual Bonus: 50 SP per 'mech, and 50 SP per vehicle of 60+ tons, that escapes. (This simulates the "full dropship" necessitating the fighting withdrawal.)
Next Mission: Raid (recovering lost units), Deep Strike (attack artillery), Stand-up fight (stall enemy advance)

Escape rules: If time runs out, escape probability for units still on the board will be judged by the other team's GM. If more than six rounds have been completed, any units that were ruled to have escaped late will be unavailable for the next battle to simulate extra damage. No unit may exit before turn 4 (simulating a soldier's unwillingness to abandon comrades).

Intel: If you move fast enough, you'll be able to punch through the blocking force before the attackers pursuing you can catch up and crush you. Bringing units that can travel 36 hexes in 6 rounds is highly recommended; carried infantry is probably a poor choice, unless you intend to drop them off as a sacrificial blocking force.

Joel47

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2017
« Reply #62 on: 31 December 2017, 18:18:20 »
It occurs to me that I need to either change the subject line to 2018 or start a new thread...

Hellraiser

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2017
« Reply #63 on: 06 January 2018, 22:02:26 »
Part-2, Game-4 (11),  Fighting Withdrawal

Today was fun, but ouch, several players took some big losses.


Table-East (GM Joel & Guest GM Steve)

Player Forces (3)   6 Mechs (1 Light, 3 Medium, 2 Heavy) 
Redshift
ShadowHawk
Griffin
Thunderbolt
Wolverine
Flashman


GM Blockade Forces (3) 
Blitzkrieg
Centurion
Legionnaire
Hussar
Saladin
Harasser

GM Pursuit Forces:
Wraith
Trebuchette
Hurron Warrior


Turn's 1-3 saw the players charging into the OP4 which split into 2 rough formations.
Legionnaire+Hovers v/s TBolt/Griffin on the West side of the map.
Blitzkrieg/Hussar v/s Flashman/Shadowhawk to the East with Centurion v/s Wolverine/Redshift more in the Middle/East.


Most the players were taking small amounts of Damage.
The Wolverine got tapped by the Centurion/Blitzkrieg to strip some armor but landed a Kick back that took out the lower leg of the Centurion making it a 3/5.
Flashman stopped to kick the Blitzkrieg & all that did was make him back-shot it for the rest of the game since you can't out run a Blitzkrieg w/ a Flashman, lol.
Redshift lost an arm to a single 10 point hit Hussar snubbie.
The Saladin got pasted by the Griffin after missing a back shot on the T-Bolt.

Turn-4 saw the Redshift take off to go get put the beer on ice ahead of the rest of the team while the pursuit forces entered from behind the players.
The Shadowhawk could have gone then too but stuck around for an extra turn just to make the Hussar think twice about getting too close to the back of the Flashman.

Turn-5 saw the Shadowhawk leave & it was the Wolverine that could have gone but stuck around for 1 turn extra to not leave the Flashman alone w/ 3 other mechs.

Turn-6 started out great but ended in some surprise bad luck for the players.
Wolverine & Flashman both leave the board & most of the east side is now out of position to stop the 2 slower units to the west.
However the Legionnaire? gets lucky & stacks & crits the T-Bolt from behind to set off the ammo which isn't CASE'd,  DOH,  65 ton bomb goes off & the CO of that force ejects to be ransomed.

Turn-7 the Griffin is left alone on the board with mechs behind & the Harasser in front but only has to weather a single round of fire before he can jet off in Turn-8.
However, in a 2nd round of shooting luck the Level-1 Trebuchette from mid board hits with both LRM15's on 10's from range.  The missiles manage to go internal & crit out one of the LRM bins, boom, but its CASE'd so surely he can survive & get off.  But no, the explosion sets off the 2nd ammo bay & a missile cluster hits the head.
He's now got to make Nappy Time Checks all the way to 11.   Finally fails on the 10 & falls over to take a 6th pilot hit.  Them eggs got scrambled.

Unbelievable shots coming in the last 2 turns after a mostly full of wiffs game.


GM Forces only end up loosing the Saladin w/ leg crits on the Centurion.

Players get 4/6 of the mechs off the board with 1 mech destroyed, 1 pilot killed, 1 mech captured, & 1 pilot ransomed back.


SP Awarded:
200 To Each Player & Guest GM.
Bonus 100 to Jason & I for getting 2 mechs off the board each.


For Next Game:
Barring a force recreation by Robert, my vote is Raid to recover his Griffin.
If on the other hand he decides to Restart a force then I say Deep Strike the Artillery.




Not sure how Table-West ended up.
Last I heard the Panther, Firestarter, & Wolfhound were all down & no units had gotten off the board but that was with a good hour left or more.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #64 on: 07 January 2018, 11:02:55 »
The other table didn't commit to pushing into the blocking force immediately, preferring to utilize their range advantage to whittle them down. This proved to be a tactical mistake, as their slower units were then closely pursued by the pursuit force that entered on turn 4. They only got about 30% off.

Players:
Battlemaster-K4, Hunchback-5S, Firestarter-M4, Panther-16K, Uziel-2S, Wolfhound-5(mod), Griffin-4R.

OpFor blocking force: Wight-1LAW, Tarantula-3A, Regulator, Gambit-1L, Lightray-4W, Raptor-F, Spider-8M, Karnov-AC
OpFor pursuing force: Bombardier-12D, Jackal-55, Cyclops-11-A

Once the pursuing force arrived, their slower units were forced to move across the map while taking considerable rear-arc damage. They lost the Battlemaster, Hunchback, Panther, and Firestarter  (all destroyed) and the Wolfhound was captured (side torso destroyed). One of the destructions was a lucky ammo hit, but the rest was simply having large units in the back arc of their targets. (According to Jared the Karnov's AC/20 was particularly brutal.)


Hellraiser

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #65 on: 07 January 2018, 13:50:40 »
Ouch
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Joel47

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #66 on: 07 January 2018, 16:51:28 »
Yeah, I'm going to recommend the three players who got mauled restart their forces; given that they're only a few battles in, they come out ahead by rebooting. I have to say that, as GM, I don't really feel bad. The only player who played well and still lost a lot was Robert, and sometimes you can't do anything about ammo crits (I don't want to put large amounts of Edge back in). The second table's issues were primarily tactical (and, secondarily, in creating forces with few/no maneuverable units), so hopefully it's a learning experience.

I've actually seen that quite a few times in this campaign -- one table wins and the other loses, mainly due to tactical or force composition errors. If both tables lost I'd think the scenario was impossible, but with 50% I think it's just that some are difficult.

Joel47

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #67 on: 09 January 2018, 14:01:14 »
Spreadsheet updated. Alex must reboot or take some time off -- his remaining mechs are all in the repair bay for one more game (tough call with the salvaged Perseus in his stable). Robert and Thomas would come out ahead by rebooting, but can fight on if they wish.

Joel47

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #68 on: 05 February 2018, 17:07:18 »
Campaign Game
Scenario: Fighting For Time
Location:Game Depot, February 24 @ 1pm
Executive Summary: The battle on Cavanaugh II is in flux. While you've been forced away from your original landing site, you've managed to gather your forces for a hard punch at the Marik advance in the hopes that you can regain the initiative.

Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 2500 (only applies for forces not submitted at least 48 hours before the game)
Unit max: 2, plus any carried infantry.
Victory Condition 1 - Stall the Advance (150 SP): Have more BV on the field than the enemy at the end of the battle
Victory Condition 2 - Hold the Field (150 SP): Have twice as much BV on the field than the enemy at the end of the battle
Salvage: If VC1 is successful, you can recover your own units. If VC2 is also successful, you may salvage enemy units as normal.

Next Mission:
Success on both tables: Deep Strike (attack artillery and C3), Recon Raid.
Success on one or both tables: Flanking attack.
Failure on both tables: Fighting Withdrawal (requiring stunning victory to not be thrown off the planet).

Intel: This is the vanguard of the enemy's main force. Expected skilled pilots in heavy 'mechs.

Force Composition: See the campaign rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing

Force Composition, Short Version: Create a mercenary force according to the rules (or ask the GM for one). Pick two units from that force to bring to the battle. (If you submit these to the GM by Thursday there is no BV limit. After that, max 2500 BV.)

Terrain: The battle will be played on a 4'x6' table (2" hexes) with some hills and forests. Setup will have both sides moving on to opposite long edges. If turnout is high we will split players evenly between two tables.

Joel47

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #69 on: 15 February 2018, 15:01:49 »
I've been thinking lately about how the campaign is coming along. A complaint I've heard (and it's valid) is that it's hard to make the campaign actually feel like a campaign at times. I can't do anything about the frequency of play (unless you all want to pay me more  8) ), but as I see more and more people across the Internet posting pictures of entire units painted up in canon colors I get jealous. I'd love to come up with a way to allow that, but it really doesn't work in our current format. In fact, our current format really doesn't incentivize much force growth; I know some players are collectors, wanting to put together a large stable purely for the challenge, but since they can only use 2-3 units at a time there's not much point.

I'd like to come up with a campaign system that has players making actual full mercenary (or house, whatever) units of their own, but how would they play each other in a balanced format? The "league" play of our campaign from several years ago didn't work out. Additionally, larger forces make it pretty hard for new players if they have to put together a company or more (especially with Game Depot having such a tough time getting minis in stock). Alpha Strike is a solution for battle size (plus it has a much more accurate point system, one that also gets updated every so often), but not the minis collection or disparate force size issues.

What if we went to a pseudo-league with lance-sized forces. With smaller setups (and maybe a slightly earlier start time) each game could be played twice, with each player playing their force once and a GM-provided OpFor once. (Optionally changing opponents for variety.) This format would also allow for different players to try to complete different missions. As forces grow, we could have the two tables set up as one table per rules set, allowing those who want a big battle the ability to play on a 4'x4' AS space, and the smaller-force BT players to use 2-3 map sheets on table #2.

Pros:
  • Bigger, cooler-looking forces
  • Games are more involving because players don't spend most of their time waiting on others
  • More choice in missions -- possible to make more of a story[
  • Able to use lances/stars/Level II's, instead of just 2-3 units
  • Players could choose a mission difficulty (easy/medium/hard), increasing OpFor strength in return for higher pay
Cons:
  • Have to use mapsheets instead of cool terrain
  • For AS, table size is a little small
  • Disparate player skill can be a problem. ("Oh, crap, I have to play Hellraiser again!")
  • Have to come up with a way to incentivize good play as a GM, because everyone would be playing an OpFor once a week.

Don't worry, I'm not going to make any wholesale changes without lots of players being on board; I just wanted to open a line of discussion.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #70 on: 15 February 2018, 15:37:32 »
Some quick thoughts:

  • I like the idea of controlling more than two units (would also have more control over unit cohesion i.e. Tag, C3, etc)
  • I like being in control of my own destiny (not reliant on other team members)
  • I like the idea of playing an OpForce with different units than I would normally play
  • Longer game days may face opposition at home
  • Difficulty levels would be helpful for newer/younger players
  • Rewards for GMs could be a percentage of destroyed BV and capped

MAD5S

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #71 on: 15 February 2018, 16:19:19 »
I am just thankful to be playing with a consistent group.  If nothing changed, I would not have any issues.

I am not able to regurgitate the fluff like I used to, but I don’t recall ever hearing about Merc units growing anywhere near the speed that our forces tend to grow.  So if we don’t grow and grow and grow, I am fine with that too.   As for me and my force growth, my goal all along has been to get a reinforced company of mechs that are all painted alike.  I am only 2 Mechs away from this goal.  Then I will be increasing pilot skills and I will do a bit of customizing. 

Some quick thoughts to add:
•   The more units the better.  If we run smaller players per table, I can bring felt maps and hills.  Assuming Game Depot would give us more tables.  Or, an occasional AS game would cover this need for more units.  I like the idea of an AS game on the final planetary battle.  All we would need to do is convert the custom Mechs we have designed. 
•   My only request would be I to get more turns in when we play.  If there is anything we can do to increase the amount of turns I am open to hearing it.  An earlier start time would get us at least 1 and maybe 2 more rounds.  There was a campaign game that I played where I stuck with the 3 slowest players in our group, and I think we only managed to get in 4 or 5 rounds.  I spent more time trying to get them to make move and less time strategizing and having fun.  I definitely don’t want to have that happen again.
•   I like the idea of rewarding GMs they way we have it.  However, a bonus would be nice for those who can GM.  Currently we have very few GMs that can fill in and this means those who can GM will be needed more frequently. 
•   I like the idea of the league style format.
•   Lastly, I agree Joel, we have had people who have complained to make the campaign actually feel like a campaign.  Honestly, I only knew one player that was never happy, but was just his personality.  The biggest challenge I see in running a true mercenary unit in a campaign is the accounting.  Joel, I know you have mentioned this before.  I would be more than willing to take this on if needed.  Last time I looked the complainers were not playing anymore.  <PROBLEM SOLVED>

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #72 on: 16 February 2018, 20:26:51 »
In regards to "Entire Merc Force":
One of the things that I believe a couple of us suggested is a much larger starting SP amount.   Like 20-25K instead of 8K

With that much, even a new beginner 2 years into the campaign has the ability to create something that can compete with a veteran.

It also allows a larger variety of units to handle any mission goal type & would likely not leave some w/o an effective force for certain scenarios.

Finally it undercuts salvage as being so important.  We'd still have Salvage Points & Can Purchase units, but it stops being a HUGE factor.


I myself would be a fan of "League" style play for a couple reasons.
1.  It allows for faster games since its 1v1 play.
2.  I've heard players over the years say they don't come because they don't like the 4v4 massed battles with all the cross talk & slow movement.
3.  Lower player count means we can bump up force size to be 4-6 units each.
4.  Bigger variety of terrain as we can use 2 maps per 1/2 game table & have 4 games going on at once.


I would suggest we remove the "GM" side of the game.  We only need 1 roving GM who is solely devoted to question answering.
Trying to get in 2 games is great if we have time but I'd rather just make sure my 1 game is actually played to 10-12 turns for sure.
Make it player v/s player with a couple tweaks.
1.  Remove "recovering" salvage from the game.  Players can't loose their units to another player.  They can still be destroyed like normal, just not captured.
  You would still earn "salvage" points that would add to your victory total for purchasing new units at regular new unit cost.
2.  Fix BV's per month. 
3.  Drop mission goals down to just a single goal per game that is above "destroy the enemy"
   So, 1=Destroy more BV than you loose.   2=Capture/Defend Supply Vehicle/Depot, etc etc.
   Or make those goals for opposite sides, attacker must capture, defender must just destroy attackers.
  You could even have 2+ mission types per month that players can choose from if we make those secondary goals very basic, and depending on the maps chosen could make for completely different feel between tables.
4.  Come to the game with 2+ forces so you can adapt if you end up being attacker or defender.



Cons:
  • Disparate player skill can be a problem. ("Oh, crap, I have to play Hellraiser again!")

I'm not sure if I'm offended, proud, or amused right now.   :-\ 


  • Longer game days may face opposition at home
I think he's just talking about moving the time back to Noon, which is what it was for many years, so only 1 hour, if that matters.


I am just thankful to be playing with a consistent group.  If nothing changed, I would not have any issues.

•   My only request would be I to get more turns in when we play.  If there is anything we can do to increase the amount of turns I am open to hearing it.  An earlier start time would get us at least 1 and maybe 2 more rounds. 
•   Lastly, I agree Joel, we have had people who have complained to make the campaign actually feel like a campaign.  Honestly, I only knew one player that was never happy, but was just his personality.  The biggest challenge I see in running a true mercenary unit in a campaign is the accounting.  Joel, I know you have mentioned this before.  I would be more than willing to take this on if needed.  Last time I looked the complainers were not playing anymore.  <PROBLEM SOLVED>

Agreed on all the above except accounting.
That level of play really is best at home, I like it, but wouldn't want it at Depot where we are basically doing pick up games with a roster & a score card attached.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #73 on: 17 February 2018, 11:53:47 »
I myself would be a fan of "League" style play for a couple reasons.
1.  It allows for faster games since its 1v1 play.
2.  I've heard players over the years say they don't come because they don't like the 4v4 massed battles with all the cross talk & slow movement.

I agree, but it was overwhelmingly voted down when I was floating ideas for the current campaign. I'll ask again next week at the game, as we've had significant turnover and maybe thoughts have changed with the active players.

And yes, by longer I mean starting maybe an hour earlier (and actually starting then). We pushed it back to 1pm because I wanted to be the parent taking my daughter to her violin lesson (and my wife also wanted me to be that parent). I'll work that out, and see if we can start the next game (not next week's, the one after) earlier.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #74 on: 17 February 2018, 12:01:03 »
The reasoning for trying to get in two (smaller, faster) battles is to avoid one of the issues from the last campaign -- building a force to a target BV. When you're playing another person's force, getting exactly 5k BV (or whatever) is much harder in a campaign when you can't tweak pilot skills and unit choices. You'd have to design your entire company around "three forces for different situations at 5k BV," but then what happens when a pilot or crew improves? So if every person plays both their own force and a GM-generated OpFor, the players can improve their force organically rather than be bound by sterile accounting.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #75 on: 17 February 2018, 22:22:47 »
The reasoning for trying to get in two (smaller, faster) battles is to avoid one of the issues from the last campaign -- building a force to a target BV. When you're playing another person's force, getting exactly 5k BV (or whatever) is much harder in a campaign when you can't tweak pilot skills and unit choices. You'd have to design your entire company around "three forces for different situations at 5k BV," but then what happens when a pilot or crew improves? So if every person plays both their own force and a GM-generated OpFor, the players can improve their force organically rather than be bound by sterile accounting.

Which is why I said 25K,  give them loads of options to choose from & they still get to grow the unit after that.
The unit size increase to 4-6 per force means having several small "Filler" units in your overall force  (Infantry/Vtols/Hovers), in addition to being flexible tactical options, will also allow for shifting things around when your choosing between the 1500 BV mech or the 2000 BV mech.




Just assuming the 25K SP gets me 12 units, a mixed company, to mix/match with & prepare forces with various totals from 1500-7500

BV Per Unit.
100, 200, 300, 400, 500
1000, 1300, 1700, 2000
2500, 3000, 3500

The reality is, my starting 8K got me 8+ units so 25K will get me well over 12.
It will allow me to duplicate several of those BV points above and have plenty of other options as well.

Mission Rewards & Salvage will still allow me to expand my force from say 4 lances starting to 2 companies or more over time.

If a unit increases its skill & changes BV then that is fine, since by the time your ready to do that, you have probably already been in several matches & can bring on another unit to match the old BV if you really want something at that exact BV point.

Finally, one thing I would suggest is take away the "You must spend X% to start", let players buy as they go from the start since it still represents forces that were part of their unit, they just hadn't "fluffed" it out fully & gives them a chance to save on "oops, shouldn't have purchased that" regret & resale which then leads to more record tracking for you.
It lets the new folks see what sorts of missions your tossing out there before they finish out the entire roster.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #76 on: 17 February 2018, 22:35:34 »
I agree, but it was overwhelmingly voted down when I was floating ideas for the current campaign. I'll ask again next week at the game, as we've had significant turnover and maybe thoughts have changed with the active players.

And yes, by longer I mean starting maybe an hour earlier (and actually starting then). We pushed it back to 1pm because I wanted to be the parent taking my daughter to her violin lesson (and my wife also wanted me to be that parent). I'll work that out, and see if we can start the next game (not next week's, the one after) earlier.

I get the parenting commitment & don't feel like you have to start earlier.
At the very least, I would say try the increased roster size & 1v1 battle options & see if those work & then you don't have to change any start time since your not the only parent

It also just occurred to me, though, the use of maps, while not as "cool" as terrain, would also REALLY speed up set up & tear down times.
We could still use the cool terrain for AS 1-offs or even a big end of planetary campaign battle to keep things from always being 1v1.
I love the stuff but it takes time prepare it for sure, v/s,"dice off for player pairings & then each pick a map, GO".

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #77 on: 19 February 2018, 10:35:26 »
Starting at noon is not a problem for me. I also have a large felt mat I used Geo Hex terrain for back in the day. I no longer have the Geo Hex, but I can bring the mat if needed.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #78 on: 23 February 2018, 14:59:38 »
I'm still like the "two games, trading off playing OpFor" idea, because:
  • Players don't have to tweak their forces to an exact BV
  • It keeps things from getting personal
  • For asymmetric battles (i.e., those with attacker/defender) players aren't forced into one or the other
  • It retains the "we are all part of a team" aspect
The trick is the time requirement -- it would be cool to be done in 4 hours instead of 6 (better for kids, and better for placating significant others). Also, if you wind up playing against someone you don't like, you have to play them twice.
While I've been avoiding it for math reasons, what if we could have everyone bring their entire force each game, and make a mission force for that based on their draw? It would require larger starting forces (as some of you have said); on the one hand, that reduces the "reason for expansion," but on the other hand at our rate of play that's probably fine. So the process would be to draw lots for mission + side, then construct forces for the mission. Some possibilities for flexibility:
  • Set "opponent's force size" at 4 and use the rules for Force Size effects on BV (TechManual p314)
  • Have a small stack of tanks and cheap (introductory tech) 'mechs available for rent for a small cost in support points (or just free -- "Your employer sent his nephew in his Urbanmech-R60 to help out.")
  • Some scenarios might allow defenders to bring gun emplacements, or for attackers to buy artillery strikes. (Tricky to balance artillery cost as BV; does anyone know if there's an official cost?)
  • Give the force worth less BV an advantage in map choice
  • Increase pay for doing more with less
We'd need an easy way of creating forces that can be private (no fair watching your opponent make up a force, then making the perfect counter), quick, and easy. It probably wouldn't be too burdensome to tell players the missions ahead of time; if it's all the same mission with the only variation being the map sheets, it would be only a little more time-consuming than it is now (the same for a symmetrical fight, two forces for attack/defense). It would be cool, though, to have a couple of pairs doing portions of the main fight while another pair is doing an attack/defense of an artillery park and a pair is off doing a deep strike against/defending a convoy.
You do lose the "timeline" nature we have now, where each game is based on what came before. If players are randomly assigned a side in the conflict each time, there's no reason for a timeline; if, on the other hand, they stay attached to a side, what if one side has more players show up for a game?

Ponder that. There will be a quiz at tomorrow's game.  ;)

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #79 on: 24 February 2018, 10:26:41 »
You can speed this idea up by simply announcing the mission types ahead of time & the BV for said mission.

That way there is no assemble forces on the spot soaking up our play time.

Just come to the game with 2 forces, attack + defense, prepared.

(We already do this with our non campaign games when your not guaranteed to play on a certain side.



You could add an additional mission/BV & to create the need for 4 Forces,  Attack x2, Defend x2, which is still fine if there is enough notice to create them all.

You could also allow players to choose the mission/side they want, if they agree, if both want to defend or want different missions, then resort to draw/dice to decide.

But the key is making sure they come prepared for any mission/BV by announcing the mission/BV well in advance.



We could have a standing list of missions based on our most common scenarios & add stuff as we think of it.

Light Skirmish of Recon v/s Screen  2500bv

"Base/Facility"  Attack/Defense  4500bv

"Direct Confrontation" in the field   5500bv

"Urban Invasion" for confrontation w/ different terrain  3500bv


Actually,  BV for the month might be more interesting if it was randomly assigned by you after you picked the 1-2 missions that are able to be drawn from.

Something like......... 1K BV + 2D6x500 BV giving us amounts from 2K to 7K with the average being 4500.

Or perhaps 2D6-1 x 1000 BV for 1K-11K

Or 3D6 x 500 BV for 1500-9K, actually, I like that one the most I think.



Unit caps each month could be something like..... 3+1D3  (+ Carried Infantry)

That gives us at least a lance/platoon each game as a cap but could stretch to 6 with support units for some games.

I'm trying to look for the compromise size between too much for 2 maps & allow for more diversity than current 2-3 limit.

It also makes for some variety each month since you might be capped at 4 or 5 or 6.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #80 on: 24 February 2018, 11:27:09 »
Yeah, that's what I was thinking -- "Next week will be missions A and B; bring forces for both." If people are on board (all but two of the current regulars will be there today, so we can talk about it), I think that's the way to go. Lots of details to consider, though:
  • Salvage -- players wouldn't be salvaging from each other, so is it removed entirely?
  • Beginners -- I guess they'd have to play me, but I wanted to keep myself open for weeks when we have an odd number of players.
  • Player Workload -- not everyone wants to do math before a game. They'd ask me to do it (and I don't always want to do math for other people before a game).
  • Uneven growth -- Have to deal with experienced players having an issue getting their point totals down if they play new players.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #81 on: 24 February 2018, 13:42:30 »
Yeah, that's what I was thinking -- "Next week will be missions A and B; bring forces for both." If people are on board (all but two of the current regulars will be there today, so we can talk about it), I think that's the way to go. Lots of details to consider, though:
  • Salvage -- players wouldn't be salvaging from each other, so is it removed entirely?
  • Beginners -- I guess they'd have to play me, but I wanted to keep myself open for weeks when we have an odd number of players.
  • Player Workload -- not everyone wants to do math before a game. They'd ask me to do it (and I don't always want to do math for other people before a game).
  • Uneven growth -- Have to deal with experienced players having an issue getting their point totals down if they play new players.

Salvage is best handled as raw SP awarded but not actual "Recovery" of the unit.
Units will only be purchasable at full normal prices just like at generation.

So,  if for example, my opponent destroys my XL Engined Flashman.   (75 Tons,  Mech,  Level-2 =  75 * 20 * .25%)  =  375 SP.
They get to claim a bonus 375 SP as Salvage, but they don't get the Flashman.
Instead they use that 375 SP to purchase something at "New Costs".
Which means salvage is still worth capturing units, but doesn't allow "expansion" at the fast rate that it was by also being a cheaper source of costs.

Basically the player earns more points that day but everyone still requests units through the Resupply Command which issues out Pristine Units, not damaged crap that you repair yourself.



Beginners are still playing regulars, but maybe we pair up by skill for them, and with their 25K forces they can still choose what is needed for a mission.


Math.  This is why I say put out the Mission & BV well in advance so they can come prepared w/ pre-made forces.


Uneven Growth?   I'm not sure what your saying there.   Are you saying they can't make small BV forces?
The GM will Set the BV limit that month ahead of time.   And 25K forces should NOT consist of half a dozen 4K BV Mechs with Elite Pilots, lol.
The point of larger force "Rosters" is to ensure that you always have access to 250 BV sized units as well as 3K BV units.

Everyone should be fully able to create a force to match any published BV closely.



Given the idea of changing it up each game & using the 3D6x500 BV limit I mentioned above,  we would know that we need to be able to flexibly build any force from 1500-9000 BV in 500 BV increments, & that the "Average" game would be 5000-5500.

I'm not seeing any issue with having plenty of smaller cheaper units in the 50-500 BV range.  Purchasing 1/2 dozen or so of those should allow a player to tailor any their force around a few larger units.


For example.  Just using my current 8K roster not an expanded 25K roster.
If I am building a 4000K force for a Recon Mission where Electronics will be useful.

1438 Firestarter-O
1212 Regulator
295 Beagle
503 Taranis
250 Marauder
186 Crow

Total 3884,  a bit short of what I'm shooting for, but I could easily fix that with some additional SP spending from the boost to 25K.



Meanwhile, defending against that same mission, maybe something with Pulse/TC & ECM, also at 4K.

1438 Firestarter-O
1774 Jagermech
752   Spider-7K  (Purchase w/ SP)
36     Mechanized Hover Platoon LRM  (Purchase w/ SP)


Infantry & Intro tech are both quite cheap so having some filler units shouldn't be an issue to meet whatever total you set.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #82 on: 24 February 2018, 13:55:53 »
Salvage is kind of "swingy" -- dependent partially on dice luck for what you get. So even if it's just pay, it might cause some odd results.

Math -- I know, pre-made, but a lot of players don't even want to do that.

Uneven growth -- As pilots are improved, it becomes harder to make smaller forces. Still, the more experienced players will be the ones with the most difficulty, so it should work out. It's just an area of concern as I try to make something that works for everyone. Especially since I still want to keep unit counts somewhere sane (6v6 is a little tight on two maps, plus some players might have trouble reaching a conclusion after 4 hours).

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #83 on: 26 February 2018, 19:40:39 »
Salvage is kind of "swingy" -- dependent partially on dice luck for what you get. So even if it's just pay, it might cause some odd results.

Math -- I know, pre-made, but a lot of players don't even want to do that.

Uneven growth -- As pilots are improved, it becomes harder to make smaller forces. Still, the more experienced players will be the ones with the most difficulty, so it should work out. It's just an area of concern as I try to make something that works for everyone. Especially since I still want to keep unit counts somewhere sane (6v6 is a little tight on two maps, plus some players might have trouble reaching a conclusion after 4 hours).

Hhmm.
Salvage variance between games is something I had not considered because of our "pool / players" current set up.
Once it becomes single games that could be an issue.

Perhaps we still need to keep doing something like that.
Though since each table will likely only have 1 person gaining salvage based on conditions, then it needs to default to "2 largest" units from each table & still take all tables into a single total & divide by # of players for an "average" salvage points reward still.

I can see the swinging your worried about, an Archangel with Pilot asleep (75%) from head hits/ammo feedback/falling is going to earn a whole lot more (2250SP) than a table where a CT cored (10%) L1 Locust (20SP) is the only thing that died.

The 2 largest might seem like too much but, given the new set up, there is almost guaranteed to be a loser & a winner at every table, where as currently both tables could defeat the GM right now & still earn Scenario Goal Award Points.


Math:
Isn't everyone forced to be use math to pre-make their forces currently?
Other than bringing something for Offense AND Defense, depending on assigned role, how is it more math than currently?


6v6 wouldn't have to be all the time, I was just using 4-6 to represent the basic organizational levels in the game (Lance-Star-LvlII).
I'd hope that if it was 6 units that much of that is in the smaller "filler" forces.
I doubt many people are going to be walking around with a full mech lance since I assume you'll still be doing BV caps in the 1500-9000 range.
Right now we have some folks that hit 6K on 2 mechs.
Agreed it might be tight, but given the felt maps have 4 forces on them sometimes & they are equivalent to 3 maps in total hexes, I'm not seeing it as too much difference.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #84 on: 27 February 2018, 00:18:22 »
The salvage problem isn't quite what you describe, but it's similar. With games going to completion, there would be a lot more destroyed units, which would affect the economy severely. While there are no repair costs, the salvage could be high -- but not if everything gets blown to bits. (That might actually be a reason to allow artillery -- as anything destroyed by it would be completely unsalvageable it might be self-correcting.  >:D ) So the swing would be if you managed to cripple an assault 'mech, or destroy it instead. Lots of money in stuff that isn't totaled.

Math: Right now players just have to pick units. In my non-campaign scenarios players have to do math... and many choose to use one of my sample forces instead of picking units to a particular BV. The problem would be exacerbated for this because they'd have to create their own (much smaller) "faction" list, and try to have it support a number of configurations. That part could be covered with sample forces (I know several of you would whip up a pile just for kicks), but it still leaves them having to add up BV to a target for a force each game. I wonder if I can make Google Sheets do some of the Excel tricks, giving them buttons or checkboxes or something easy. (Or just put it all in a database and write a web app.)

Unit count: I figure always setting the max unit count at 6 might be fun to allow people who want to play ComStar/WoB Level IIs the chance to do so. But with the BV cap being the same for everyone (and a possible penalty for going over 4 so that people don't take two super cheap stands of leg infantry to hide behind a hill as initiative sinks), I suspect most players will go with fewer, better units. We can't fit three maps on a 4x4 table section, can we? The store has a few 4x6 boards that would allow it, but that's a pain.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #85 on: 28 February 2018, 18:38:51 »
With salvage being limited to just 1 per person I think we have cured a lot of the Salvage issue.
That said, if we still used the "Average" for the day from all tables like we have been, it would be must better IMHO.

Now I'm seeing what your saying w/ math.   Some just give you a list w/o looking at the total.   I wasn't thinking of it that way.


6 Seems like a good cap as you said.   As for maps/table section, pretty sure its 2.
There is just enough room around the edges for dice & such but no way for 3 maps, I don't think anyway.  I'll have to check it out to be sure.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #86 on: 28 February 2018, 19:17:12 »
I'm not sure if penalizing for more than 4 units is necessary yet. If someone wants to hide infantry behind a hill and waste their BV on that, then let them. Either other players will figure out how to counter it or we can nerf it later.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #87 on: 01 March 2018, 10:50:56 »
Two movement sinks for 150 BV is a purchase I'd make every single time. But I'd start with "four units," and consider allowing other configurations later.

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #88 on: 01 March 2018, 12:16:46 »
Perhaps simply a rule where ALL infantry MUST be carried.

Once you have to dump slots into APCs too it quickly eats up space.  (And apcs will start be known as fire-magnets)

I still like 6 as it lets you have a full lance of mechs or a full C3 Lance either way & still a couple other units v/s a Lvl-II

Or if you don't like the all infantry must be carried then only allow standing infantry units when your on the Defense as they are too slow for attackers.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Phoenix, AZ - Campaign 2018
« Reply #89 on: 01 March 2018, 16:50:20 »
The cheapest standard-rules infantry with the XMEC ability (pro tip: when searching the Master Unit List for units with certain equipment, figure out the Alpha Strike equivalent) is Fa Shih Battle Armor (Support) [King David] at 185 BV each; I'd still be willing to bring those as initiative sinks, though the old standby of the Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Cargo) at 17 each (and no combat effectiveness other than making something useful on the enemy team move first) would be better.

I'd like to have some wiggle room on unit count and unit types, I just don't want "game-y-ness" (gaminess?) to intrude. Thus, my idea to have force construction assuming the opposition was using 4 units. Want to bring two? They can be even bigger. Want to bring eight? "BEHOLD, MY SWARM OF LOCUSTS!! >:D"

 

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