Author Topic: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.  (Read 2842 times)

Cazaril

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 968
Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« on: 15 March 2017, 12:02:32 »
In House Marik - The Free Worlds League <1622>, page 80, it says "A full strength regiment consists of 108 BattleMechs, 18 Aerospace Fighters, and a full compliment of support personnel (Techs, Scouts, engineers, etc)."

In Field Manual - Free Worlds League <1699>, page 17, it says "The bulk of the League's front-line forces are organized in a standard grouping called a brigade. Brigades are often formed around a BattleMech regiment and contain two to four armor or infantry regiments."

The House book suggest that there is no attached armor, infantry or artillery support of any consequence, although the "full compliment of support personnel" might suggest a structure similar to the BattleForce structure in NAIS - The Fourth Succession War - Military Atlas Vol 1&2 (<1624> & <1635>). In those source books, each unit is usually granted a handful of infantry platoons, a few lances of armor and a few more of unarmed/unarmored trucks, for what seems to be the protection of the Regimental headquarters and possibly scouting/recon mission... Meanwhile the Field Manual looks more like a scaled down version of an RCT (which in 3025 was only deployed by the Federated Suns). Which would make a certain sense that military units across the Inner Sphere would adopt a larger organization to have parity with Davion units.

My question is this though... Did Marik adopt the Brigade structure sometime after 3025, or was it always in some form before then?

Please note, I am primarily interested in cite-able sources, from before 3058 (which is suppose to be time the Field Manual was written).

Thanks in advance,

Caz

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #1 on: 15 March 2017, 12:07:34 »
Speculation here, but it makes sense that the brigade would be a new development for the FWLM as of the 3050s.

Keep in mind that prior to Thomas' sweeping reforms, the FWLM was an amalgam of regional and provincial forces that are "blue helmeted" into an imperial force on an ad hoc basis.  There wasn't even a unified rank structure throughout the FWLM prior to Thomas.  Seems far fetched to say they would have/could have had a coherent doctrine as complex as the brigades described in FM:FWLM prior to Thomas.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11030
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #2 on: 15 March 2017, 13:41:53 »
House Marik mentions the 1st Defenders of Andurien having "a staggering 26 lances of Aerospace Fighters, artillery, and light and heavy tanks".   The 3rd mentions "the unit's support lances are not quite up to the level of the other Defender regiments."    In FM: FWL, I believe it mentions the Free Worlds Legionnaires, built from the Defenders, continues their tradition of combined arms.  That sounded like a departure from the rest of hte FWLM though.  So my assumption would be similar to that posted below, Defenders to Andurien success to FWLegionnaires success along with Davion's RCT success leads to FWLM brigade adoption.

FM: FWL p35 "These reforms have already yielded benefits. For example, the widespread adoption of the combined-arms tactics pioneered by the former Defenders of Andurien has fostered a growing sense of cooperation among different provincial forces, as even the most recalcitrant battle-group commanders have begun to appreciate the strength inherent in working in tandem other units."
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2308
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #3 on: 15 March 2017, 17:09:20 »
Before the Andurien War, the FWLM did indeed assign conventional units to BattleMech operations, but on an ad hoc basis.  The Military Reorganization Act of 3046 integrated conventional assets as part of the "brigade" structure, effectively making each FWLM 'Mech regiment a sort of RCT.  Those conventional units listed in FM:FWL aren't just on temporary assignment to the 'Mech regiments, they are on permanent assignment to those regiments.  Even the provincial ones; something else the MRA of '46 did was eliminate the legal divide between Provincial and Federal units, so all FWLM commands now use the Federal rank system, have a unified chain of command that runs to the Captain-General rather than to their own Provincial leadership, and are bound by the LCCC's decisions and supply chain.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #4 on: 15 March 2017, 19:00:39 »
Those conventional units listed in FM:FWL aren't just on temporary assignment to the 'Mech regiments, they are on permanent assignment to those regiments.

Not quite correct.  Quite a few of the conventional regiments are only semi-permanently assigned to the 'Mech regiments.  For most that means that the conventional regiments are only assigned to support the 'Mech regiment during their time garrisoning the conventional regiments' homeworld.  They usually remain on-world  when the 'Mech regiment goes off-world temporarily (objective raid, training exercises, etc) or when the 'Mech regiment is assigned to garrison a new homeworld.  For example none of the Free Worlds Guards' conventional regiments are permanently assigned to any of them.
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2308
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #5 on: 15 March 2017, 19:56:56 »
Not quite correct.  Quite a few of the conventional regiments are only semi-permanently assigned to the 'Mech regiments.  For most that means that the conventional regiments are only assigned to support the 'Mech regiment during their time garrisoning the conventional regiments' homeworld.  They usually remain on-world  when the 'Mech regiment goes off-world temporarily (objective raid, training exercises, etc) or when the 'Mech regiment is assigned to garrison a new homeworld.  For example none of the Free Worlds Guards' conventional regiments are permanently assigned to any of them.

Again, not quite correct.  FM:FWL, pg 18: "Nearly all FWLM 'Mech units are closely integrated with armor, infantry and aerospace support units, which reflects the trend towards combined-arms tactics in the FWLM that began after the end of the Andurien War."  "Closely integrated" means they're permanent additions.  Later in the paragraph: "Most other [than the Legions] combined-arms groups are ad-hoc units formed by the temporary addition of non-'Mech support units." Temporary being the key word.  So...we're both right and both wrong because the source is contradicting itself.

As for your bit on the Guards, you're dead wrong.  FM:FWL, pg 45, 11th Bella Armor Regiment: "Over the past forty years the armor units has effectively become part of the Second Guards."  Forty years they've been stationed together, operating in such close coordination that the tankers consider themselves part and parcel of the 2nd Guards.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11030
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #6 on: 15 March 2017, 20:04:25 »
Both at the same time.
They are temporarily assigned.  But they don't just stay home.  28th Stewart Regulars as the infantry regiment of the 25th Marik Militia, for example, mentions the 28th have requested "either end the squabbling or grant the Regulars a transfer back to their home province."
The brigades (non-Legions) were formed ad-hoc.  But they are meant to work together on defensive or offensive missions.  That's the point of them working on being closely integrated.  But they can be swapped, if the 'mech regiment needs/wants something different (we need some heavier tanks), or politics interferes (Regulus wants it's regiment back, offers another instead), or command has different priorities (we want to bulk up for an upcoming invasion of the Capellan Confederation, so we're stripping this armor regiment from you to give to another).  But generally the 'mech regiment assumes it's going to have its support regiments wherever it goes.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

Nightgaun7

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 537
  • The ends justify the means.
    • Built for War - A BattleTech TRO by fans like you!
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #7 on: 15 March 2017, 20:31:09 »
In House Marik - The Free Worlds League <1622>, page 80, it says "A full strength regiment consists of 108 BattleMechs, 18 Aerospace Fighters, and a full compliment of support personnel (Techs, Scouts, engineers, etc)."

In Field Manual - Free Worlds League <1699>, page 17, it says "The bulk of the League's front-line forces are organized in a standard grouping called a brigade. Brigades are often formed around a BattleMech regiment and contain two to four armor or infantry regiments."

Leaving aside the argument about dates, this isn't a problem - the makeup of the Mech regiment of the brigade is detailed in the first part, while the overall brigade structure is in the second.

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #8 on: 16 March 2017, 03:43:35 »
Again, not quite correct.  FM:FWL, pg 18: "Nearly all FWLM 'Mech units are closely integrated with armor, infantry and aerospace support units, which reflects the trend towards combined-arms tactics in the FWLM that began after the end of the Andurien War."  "Closely integrated" means they're permanent additions.  Later in the paragraph: "Most other [than the Legions] combined-arms groups are ad-hoc units formed by the temporary addition of non-'Mech support units." Temporary being the key word.  So...we're both right and both wrong because the source is contradicting itself.

Closely integrated does not mean they are permanent additions.  It simply means that their command structures are integrated with the 'Mech regiments to improve unit coordination, efficiency, etc.  In some cases it may become permanent but until the conventional regiment is officially permanently assigned to the regiment it is temporary.  It is similar to integrated command rights for mercenary contracts.  The contracted unit is only  'temporarily' merged with another unit(s) until the contract (assignment) is over.

Quote
As for your bit on the Guards, you're dead wrong.  FM:FWL, pg 45, 11th Bella Armor Regiment: "Over the past forty years the armor units has effectively become part of the Second Guards."  Forty years they've been stationed together, operating in such close coordination that the tankers consider themselves part and parcel of the 2nd Guards.

They might consider themselves 'effectively' part of the 2nd Guard but as far as the FWLM is officially concerned they are not.  Until the assignment is made 'official' it is still considered temporary regardless of whether the duration is one month or 30 years.

Consider that the 53rd Fletcher Armored Brigade has been attached to the 1st Marik Militia for over 30 years but is still having to apply "for the official integration of his unit into the Marik Militia as the First Marik Reconnaissance Brigade." (FM:FWL, p54)  The 4th Tau Ceti Rangers and the 15th Dracon spent over two centuries serving House Liao and many considered them a CCAF regiment but they didn't officially become one until they accepted Sun-Tzu Liao's offer of permanent sponsorship.
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2308
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #9 on: 16 March 2017, 07:09:02 »
So you're telling me that 30- and 40-year don't sound "permanent" to you?
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #10 on: 16 March 2017, 10:30:01 »
So you're telling me that 30- and 40-year don't sound "permanent" to you?

Permanency is a metter of perspective.  I always liked the quip to explain the difference between British and American cultures: 100 miles is a long distance to the former, and 100 years is a long period of time to the latter.

To the point: the BTU has unbroken regimental histories that span more than 500 years (as of the 31st century).  A 30 or 40 year span is naught but the blink of an eye in that context.  Given the better-then-real-life life spans of denizens of the BTU, 30 years is conceivable as the tenure of a single commanding officer.  Each commander might be thought of as being the "permanent" commander of the regiment, but in-universe the view would probably be more of being the "temporary" caretaker of the regiment.

Cazaril

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 968
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #11 on: 16 March 2017, 17:27:20 »
Leaving aside the argument about dates, this isn't a problem - the makeup of the Mech regiment of the brigade is detailed in the first part, while the overall brigade structure is in the second.

What argument about the dates?

If you are talking about whether or not it matters in 3025 if they used the Brigade structure, because they do now... It matters if you are working in a 3025 campaign.

I'm fine with them doing a 108 Mech regiment without command units, then moving to a slightly more command heavy structure (as in the NAIS SW4 manuals), and finally ending up with a lesser version of a RCT (FM: FWL)... But, if they didn't have more than the 108 Mech regiment in 3025, then I can't use the extended structure (I guess I could arbitrarily use it, but if I was going to do that, there would be no point in asking about it here).

My universe deviates sharply from the canon one as the timeline progresses beyond 3025, but I am trying to keep the starting point as canon as possible. Hence the question.

Caz

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #12 on: 16 March 2017, 17:40:16 »
My universe deviates sharply from the canon one as the timeline progresses beyond 3025, but I am trying to keep the starting point as canon as possible. Hence the question.

Caz

Well keep in mind how profound Thomas Marik's reign was for the FWLM... there's a tectonic difference between his FWLM and the Pre-Thomas, 3025 FWLM.  If your timeline doesn't have him doing away with the restraints that hamstringed his Captain-General predecessors, your AU will surely more closely resemble the 3025 FWLM.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #13 on: 16 March 2017, 18:22:01 »
Closely integrated does not mean they are permanent additions.  It simply means that their command structures are integrated with the 'Mech regiments to improve unit coordination, efficiency, etc.  In some cases it may become permanent but until the conventional regiment is officially permanently assigned to the regiment it is temporary.  It is similar to integrated command rights for mercenary contracts.  The contracted unit is only  'temporarily' merged with another unit(s) until the contract (assignment) is over.

They might consider themselves 'effectively' part of the 2nd Guard but as far as the FWLM is officially concerned they are not.  Until the assignment is made 'official' it is still considered temporary regardless of whether the duration is one month or 30 years.

Consider that the 53rd Fletcher Armored Brigade has been attached to the 1st Marik Militia for over 30 years but is still having to apply "for the official integration of his unit into the Marik Militia as the First Marik Reconnaissance Brigade." (FM:FWL, p54)  The 4th Tau Ceti Rangers and the 15th Dracon spent over two centuries serving House Liao and many considered them a CCAF regiment but they didn't officially become one until they accepted Sun-Tzu Liao's offer of permanent sponsorship.
To make this simple for people who don't get it: Despite the fact that a temp worker as been working in your office for 30 years, they're still a temp until people get around to officially changing things.

Nightgaun7

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 537
  • The ends justify the means.
    • Built for War - A BattleTech TRO by fans like you!
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #14 on: 16 March 2017, 19:41:46 »
snip

I'm only addressing this part of your first post:

The House book suggest that there is no attached armor, infantry or artillery support of any consequence,

The House book is not in conflict with the Field Manual.

Cazaril

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 968
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #15 on: 16 March 2017, 21:40:10 »
The House book is not in conflict with the Field Manual.

Since the House Book makes no mention one way or the other, you are technically correct that the Field Manual is not in conflict with it. But being technically correct does not answer the question.

While I was hoping for a definitive, cite-able answer, it doesn't look like I am going to get one... So in its place I'll accpet Tai Dai Cultist's logical argument that Thomas Marik changed the LCCC when he became Captain-General and part of that change was the addition of armor, artillery and infantry to the standard unit structure... Meaning that in my 3025, Marik BattleMech units will have attached Aerospace units and techs, but no other support units.

As to the discussion of whether or not units are permanently attached or not, when the timeline advances far enough, I think in my universe they will be permanent by means of tradition. One of those things where one unit gets so associated with another, while they are not officially part of the unit, most people see them that way (including the powers that be)... Of course this opinion may just be because I am lazy, and want to be able to paint the 12th Orloff Militia and say that "this is all part of the 9th Marik Militia", instead of having to worry that the 12th is going to be replaced by the 9th Militia Armor Brigade by 3085 (actually, I'd probably just say the 12th became permanent at that point and was renamed).

Thanks for everyone's help and discussion.

Caz

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #16 on: 23 March 2017, 23:32:47 »
My question is this though... Did Marik adopt the Brigade structure sometime after 3025, or was it always in some form before then? 

I want to say what your looking for is either in Brush Wars, FM:FWL, or 20 Year Update.

Post 4th SW in the late 30's or 40's when they Formed the FW Legionnaires is when they started adding Tanks/Infantry to mech regiments on a semi-permanent basis.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: Marik Conversion to Brigade Model units.
« Reply #17 on: 25 March 2017, 02:39:14 »
The Defenders of Andurien used combined-arms brigade-style formation prior to 3025.  After Andurien's defeat, Thomas Halas nee Marik and the LCCC saw the advantages of the combined-arms brigades and first organized the Free Worlds Legionnaires but were moving towards spreading it throughout the FWLM with the Military Reorganization Act of 3046. (FM:FWL, p105)
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.