Have the clans failed as a society ?

[Sjhernan3060]

After re reading the Wars of Reaving and Dark Age materials - I ask the following:

Have the Clans failed?
Failed as a society?
Especially if we take into account the new background which seems to show Nick as power mad nut job who purged:  people, places and things he disliked not just to build a better society but when it was convenient to do so. So have they failed? I am not sure but the following  weighs in favor of that IMO:
1)   Most of the original clans have been kicked out or destroyed as “ failures or tainted”
2)   In their biggest joint clan effort since Klondike the Invasion they failed to achieve their objectives
3)   After the truce and great refusal they battered themselves silly
4)   After years of neglect/heavy handiness the scientist cast manage to attempt a wide ranging coup
a.   The after affects tainted the genepools and stunted technology progress even further
5)   After the word of blake wars some of the clans abandoned Zell and limited combat all together which would seem to make them no better than what they claimed to be fighting against…

So what do you all think? Have the Clans the descendants of the noble SLDF failed?

[Frabby]

Yes.
As a culture or society, they are Frankenstein's monster - a stillborn artificial construct that eventually collapsed.

But what's worse is that they never understood what that "Star League" thing is they're fighting for. A Clansman, or at least a Warrior, wouldn't understand, much less want to live in, a Star League society. It became an empty word for them when Nicholas purged their cultural roots.

[Sjhernan3060]

Harsh but I think true!

And this is from a Clan Fan. After reading Historical Liberation of Terra ( great read) it goes into depth of how much restraint the SLDF strove to maintain in the face of HORRIFIC atrocities from the Amaris regime. Course their well intentioned exile soon dissolved in the face of reality but I think the Great Father would have been appalled by some of the actions of his children 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I agree with the OP and go further to say that the Clans are further removed from the (first) Star League than the denizens of the Inner Sphere are.  That irony is kind of the entire point to the flavor of the Clans, imo.

The Clans have become a warrior culture, and in that they're definitely successful at being conquerors and warmakers.

Whether or not these things mean they've failed as a society is a matter of opinion/perspective.  Additionally: whenever ilClan comes out, we'll have another new perspective on how to answer the OPs question.  Presumably, someone is going to become the ilClan and that's the pinnacle the entire Clan civilization has been building towards since Little Nicky's time.  How exactly that happens is going to be almost as important as if it *does* happen.  The Clans are the dog that's been chasing it's tail for 300 years.  What do they do if they finally catch it?

[Iron Mongoose]

I think there are two questions here: have the Clans failed as any sort of society, and have they failed in their intent?

The first I think we can answer no.  Now, they're not particularly stable, but they were designed to be unstable, with rules written into place to formalize the instability.  Since all that has taken place has been above board, within their laws (abjuration, absorption, annihilation) then I don't think we can say they've failed.  There are still a hand full of 'official' Clans left, in addition to the ones in the Inner Sphere, after all, and each group thrives (or fails to) in its own way.

Now, have they done what Kerensky envisioned?  The truth is it's hard to know exactly what any given Kerensky envisioned, so its not necessarily possible to say precisely, but it is tempting to say no.  Alexander I think would definitely be saddened by what became of his poor SLDF, since I can scarcely imagine he'd have wanted them to be so horribly fractured.  Nicholas did seem to want to create a warrior society, in which different parts sharpened themselves against each other, which absolutely came to pass. 

The Clans themselves had two main theories about what he wanted: the Crusaders believed that he meant them to return to the Inner Sphere to 'save' them in more or less the same way they returned to the Pentagon worlds, which is to say as a conquering army, while the Wardens believed they were to protect and safeguard the Inner Sphere, which given that they're invasion was the second biggest upheaval of the century, and the greatest (the Jihad) took place on 'their watch' I think we can call that one a failure as well.  So by the Clans' own standards, they do seem to be failures.

[Jellico]

Yes.
As a culture or society, they are Frankenstein's monster - a stillborn artificial construct that eventually collapsed.

So just like every other culture or society?

I don't think any warrior is fighting for the Star League as a citizen of the Inner Sphere might imagine it. Remember Star League culture failed in the Sphere and in the Homeworlds. It is why Clan culture exists. It would be better to imagine them unifying humanity lile the Star League but without the flaws.

[Orwell84]

Agree with Iron Mongoose and Tai Dai Cultist's points.

Addressing the OP, I think it depends on how you define 'failure'. Every culture must adapt or die and kudos to the BT writers for not keeping the Clans unbelievably static.

Of all of the 32nd century Clans, I'd say the Bears are the most successful and have the best long-term prospects as a society - they've won over their Spheroid subjects without losing their Clan identity and managed to avoid any major feuds or encumbrances. Clan Hell's Horses seems to have managed the former to some degree as well, but are now yoked to the Chiggis Khan. I can see Alaric taking the Wolf Empire down the Dominion route in the long-term, but the Falcons I think are destined either for a spectacular and fiery end or long-term death by a thousand Spheroid cuts.

Additionally: whenever ilClan comes out, we'll have another new perspective on how to answer the OPs question.  Presumably, someone is going to become the ilClan and that's the pinnacle the entire Clan civilization has been building towards since Little Nicky's time.  How exactly that happens is going to be almost as important as if it *does* happen.  The Clans are the dog that's been chasing it's tail for 300 years.  What do they do if they finally catch it?

Plus ca change... the other Clans will find some excuse to ignore the winners and continue fighting each other. They can always claim that Kerensky meant for the Clans to be competing variants on the same idea, not for one Clan to rule all.

[SCC]

I think people are making a mistake in assuming that when ilClan comes out there will be an ilClan, events in the book could well make it such that no Clan can ever be ilClan.

[Frabby]

Of all of the 32nd century Clans, I'd say the Bears are the most successful and have the best long-term prospects as a society - they've won over their Spheroid subjects without losing their Clan identity and managed to avoid any major feuds or encumbrances. Clan Hell's Horses seems to have managed the former to some degree as well, but are now yoked to the Chiggis Khan.

The same goes for the Snow Ravens, possibly the Goliath Scorpions, and to a degree even the now-nomadic Sea Foxes.
Incidentially, Ghost Bear and Snow Raven are the Clans I like most dislike the least, probably because they're more believable than the original "Yarr! We Clans!" antagonists. With the Ghost Bears we even get told about the kinks and wrinkles in their fused Rasalhague society - although it is by far the most successful combination of a Clan and a real IS faction, it's still not without discord. Same with the Snow Ravens, who however haven't carried the cultural integration quite as far as the Ghost Bears.

[Orwell84]

The same goes for the Snow Ravens, possibly the Goliath Scorpions, and to a degree even the now-nomadic Sea Foxes.
Incidentially, Ghost Bear and Snow Raven are the Clans I like most dislike the least, probably because they're more believable than the original "Yarr! We Clans!" antagonists. With the Ghost Bears we even get told about the kinks and wrinkles in their fused Rasalhague society - although it is by far the most successful combination of a Clan and a real IS faction, it's still not without discord. Same with the Snow Ravens, who however haven't carried the cultural integration quite as far as the Ghost Bears.

Ah yes, how could I have forgotten the Foxes? You've touched on one of the key reasons I like the Bears most as well (along with the Wolves).

As to the Scorpions and Ravens, they've done OK, but the latest news on both indicates problems arising from typical warrior caste arrogance. IMHO it's a toss-up whether the Imperio implodes before the Aggressors begin field-testing their new Taint-Eradication^(TM) toys. Which is a bit of a shame, because they're one of the more interesting factions now from a cultural standpoint.

[Robroy]

As a society, no. As Nick intended them to be, probably. As Aleksandr hoped, diffidently.

If Nick intended them to reestablish the Star League then he totally messed up by removing anything IS.

As far as ilClan goes, never going to happen. The home clans won't do it now, the IS clans can't do it, and if they did the home clans would not recognize them as their tainted.

[Achtung Minen!]

The Clans have evolved to meet every difficulty that they have encountered. An evolving society is not a failing society. It is ultimately pointless to hold them up to one singular mission or vision for several reasons:

1) That mission or vision is not particularly clear, even during Aleksandr Kerensky's lifetime. Exactly HOW was Aleksandr going to accomplish any of his plans?

2) Nicholas Kerensky really fundamentally changed that vision.

3) The facts of the invasion further changed that vision. Simple "takeover" was (and always had been) materialistically impossible, whether in Aleksandr's time or in Lincoln Osis' time. Given this impossibility, the "Inner Sphere" Clans needed to undergo a transformation.

Jellico is right. It is not unusual for societies to change with the needs of the time: in fact, it represents a thriving (not failing) society. The Hidden Hope doctrine represented one of those changes, applying religious significance to the Clan homecoming and a sudden urgency to return. The Warden philosophy paved the way for certain Clans to reintegrate into Inner Sphere life and politics. The Crusader doctrine provided the rationale to stay "true" to the Clan way, even in the midst of the barbarians that destroyed the Star League's vision of human unity across the stars. (Remember, separation from the corruption of the Inner Sphere had previously been a (the?) foundation of Clan society.) Both doctrines were actually unique evolutions in the lifepath of Clan society, NOT just a mere raison d'être for the continued existence of the Clans.

Claiming that the Clans didn't live up to some original vision fails to appreciate how that vision actually changed at each major turn in Clan history. This is really the function of the Remembrance... it records historical moments in verse, but the performance of the Remembrance by Clan warriors and Loremasters is a ritual of "re-remembering" history (i.e. "re-creating history") in ways that are uniquely appropriate for the present. If the Clans insisted on a "factual" account if history, they would probably be rather surprised at what they found.

[Nightgaun7]

Keresky was a fool, his son was mad, and all their followers were both.

[Natasha Kerensky]

So have they failed? I am not sure but the following  weighs in favor of that IMO:
1)   Most of the original clans have been kicked out or destroyed as “ failures

Starting with the Wolverines under Nicky K.  Competitive evolution between the 20 original Clans was apparently part of his plan from the beginning (or shortly after).

or tainted”

"Taint" doesn't mean anything except in the Homeworlds.  It's not even clear that the Spheroid clans are aware that the Homeworld clans have labeled them as such.  It certainly doesn't mean that a Clan society is no longer Clan -- only in the eyes of certain Homeworlders.

2)   In their biggest joint clan effort since Klondike the Invasion they failed to achieve their objectives

From 3049-3052, yes, Operation Revival failed to achieve its objectives.

As of 3145-3150, no less than three Clans are knocking on the Republic's door within striking distance of Terra.  It appears that the Clans will achieve their ultimate objective, just not on the timetable of Operation Revival.
 

3)   After the truce and great refusal they battered themselves silly

The Jade Falcons and Wolves did, but now they're both at the Republic's doorstep, so the Refusal War didn't mean a whole lot in the long run.

4)   After years of neglect/heavy handiness the scientist cast manage to attempt a wide ranging coup
a.   The after affects tainted the genepools and stunted technology progress even further

The Society's revolt certainly changed the course of the Homeworld clans, but we don't know how that turns out yet so no judgment can be rendered.

But we do know that the Society had little impact on the Spheroid clans.  It's certainly not clear that technological progress or genepools were significantly stunted.  The Spheroid Clans are still arguably deploying the most advanced TRO designs circa 3145-3150 and testing the most advanced technology like interface cockpits.  And new bloodnames are appearing among the Bears while the Wolves have enough genetic abundance to let the Kerensky bloodline shrink.  Touman sizes are at all time highs, indicating no constraints from the trueborn genepool.

5)   After the word of blake wars some of the clans abandoned Zell and limited combat all together which would seem to make them no better than what they claimed to be fighting against…

Clan commanders reduced or abandoned zell long before the Jihad, during certain Operation Revival battles, in fact.  It's just the reality of warfare that it cannot all be conducted as a gladiatorial tournament within a Circle of Equals.  It has more to do with the nature of the Clans' opponents than the Clans themselves.  It's arguably a testament to the adaptability of Clan society that those changes were made.

So what do you all think? Have the Clans the descendants of the noble SLDF failed?

The Clans have certainly failed Alex K.'s purpose in removing and preserving the best of the Star League from the Succession Wars.  The Clans bear little resemblance to the SLDF by design.  They were purposefully developed and written as an alien twist on the SLDF to scare the crap out of the Inner Sphere.  They were a failure of Alex K.'s vision from the beginning.

But have the Clans failed Nicky K.'s vision?  Warden goals?  Crusader goals?  General goals of any society to survive, adapt, and thrive?

No, to all those.  The Clans meet Nicky K's vision of a competitive, martial society shorn of the old Inner Sphere associations that led to the collapse of the Star League, the Exodus, the Succession Wars and civil war in the Kerensky Cluster, and the Second Exodus.  During the Jihad, when the Inner Sphere most needed help, the Clans answered and were critical in removing the Blakist threat, arguably fulfilling the Wardens' promise.  It took about a century instead of decade, but the Clans now appear poised to win Terra and fulfill the Crusaders' promise.  Moreover, Clan society remains vibrant after a century in the Inner Sphere.  It has more planets, population, and resources under its control than at any point in its history.  The caste system and artificial breeding programs remain intact and central to Clan society.  And Clan culture is winning Spheroid adherents from Lyran tankers now serving in the Wolf touman to Bear trueborns descended from Rasalhagians.

Has Clan society failed?  No.  In fact, it's thriving more than ever in the current timeline.

Will Clan society be due for a big takedown sometime after the publication of ilClan?  Certainly.  But that's the nature of the BTech universe.

My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.

[Mendrugo]

There are some suggestions in the fiction dealing with Nicholas Kerensky and his wife (Jessica Cameron).  It appears that his plan may have been not just to have the Clans perennially at each other's throats, but for the strongest to continually absorb the weak or nonconforming ones - a process repeated over and over until only one Clan, the ilClan, remained. 

Nick and Jessica's statements can be read to suggest they intended this to happen over a fairly rapid timeframe, during their lifetimes, but this plan got derailed by Nick's death, leading to a slowdown in the culling process and the solidification of the modern Clan structures during the Golden Century.

Thus, you can presume that the Clans, as they existed in 3050, were not what Nicholas envisioned.  He probably hoped to lead one unified ilClan back to the Inner Sphere as conquerors/saviors somewhere around 2850, putting forth the best of the best of the best warriors, and backed by the unified resources of the Kerensky Cluster.

[Robroy]

There are some suggestions in the fiction dealing with Nicholas Kerensky and his wife (Jessica Cameron).  It appears that his plan may have been not just to have the Clans perennially at each other's throats, but for the strongest to continually absorb the weak or nonconforming ones - a process repeated over and over until only one Clan, the ilClan, remained. 

Nick and Jessica's statements can be read to suggest they intended this to happen over a fairly rapid timeframe, during their lifetimes, but this plan got derailed by Nick's death, leading to a slowdown in the culling process and the solidification of the modern Clan structures during the Golden Century.

Thus, you can presume that the Clans, as they existed in 3050, were not what Nicholas envisioned.  He probably hoped to lead one unified ilClan back to the Inner Sphere as conquerors/saviors somewhere around 2850, putting forth the best of the best of the best warriors, and backed by the unified resources of the Kerensky Cluster.

I kind of thought Nick was going for something like that. But ending up with one clan to invade the IS in the timeframe you mention seems impracticable.

[Mendrugo]

He was born in 2764.  An average lifespan provided by Star League-era medtech would get him up to 2872 (age 108).  If he wanted to do something before he got too elderly to manage the demands, 2850 (age 86) is about the limit.  By the time of his death in 2834 (age 70), he'd already overseen the annihilation of the Wolverines and the beginnings of the Absorption of the Widowmakers in just the 12 years after KLONDIKE ended.  He'd also scared the Jade Falcons into culling their own ranks to avoid getting Annihilated.

Through manipulation of the various Khans (who were all complicit in the lie about Dehra Dun), he could have played a great game of "let's you and him fight" to facilitate the rapid narrowing of the multi-Clan structure.

[Kit deSummersville]

I think people are making a mistake in assuming that when ilClan comes out there will be an ilClan, events in the book could well make it such that no Clan can ever be ilClan.

Or that the ilClan is one of Kerensky's Clans.

[Mendrugo]

ilClan Brannigan of New St. Andrews?

[Kit deSummersville]

ilClan Brannigan of New St. Andrews?

Nooooo....

Clan Snord.

[Mendrugo]

But with my idea there's odds on potential for ilKhan Zap Brannigan.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I think people are making a mistake in assuming that when ilClan comes out there will be an ilClan, events in the book could well make it such that no Clan can ever be ilClan.

I really, *really* want there to be no ilClan.  I hope "ilClan" is an ironic name for an age, as if the Succession Wars were called "The Age of Amaris".  Amaris doesn't rule the Inner Sphere- it's just a wreck of Succession Wars that all spiralled out from his big coup back on Terra.  I want "ilClan" to be a new Succession Wars-like era where there absolutely is no faction to rule them all- it's just ironically called that because of the events that spiralled out of control from some Clanner's (or Clanners') efforts to make his or her Clan the ilClan.

Of course, I also recognize that what I want is probably not going to be the case.   So, I guess I'm girding myself to see Clan White Whale rule the Inner Sphere, even if only for the time being/until the next time warp.  And hope TPTB know enough of what the hell they're doing to not kill BattleTech by making someone 'win' once and for all.

[Kit deSummersville]

And hope TPTB know enough of what the hell they're doing to not kill BattleTech by making someone 'win' once and for all.

Hey, the Camerons won it for once and for all.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Hey, the Camerons won it for once and for all.

That's fine for the backhistory.  Not so fine for the "living" history.

[Robroy]

Hey, the Camerons won it for once and for all.

If you want to look at things that way you can say the same for the usurper Stefan Amaris.

[Frabby]

Yes.
As a culture or society, they are Frankenstein's monster - a stillborn artificial construct that eventually collapsed.

So just like every other culture or society?

I don't think any warrior is fighting for the Star League as a citizen of the Inner Sphere might imagine it. Remember Star League culture failed in the Sphere and in the Homeworlds. It is why Clan culture exists. It would be better to imagine them unifying humanity lile the Star League but without the flaws.

You would have a point here if the Clans were an actual culture that had organically evolved. But from the onset, they weren't - they were engineered as a sociological tool for a specific goal and after a specific vision (that was not entirely sane or humane), and measured by that goal, nebulous as it may be, they failed as a tool.

Mendrugo raised a good point in that Nicholas lost control of his project when he died, allowing the Clan project to become a freely evolving culture from that point on. But their entire groundwork was designed by Nicholas - a sociopath - and that came back to bite the "Clan culture" in the rear armor with a vengeance. And the development they took after his death certainly wasn't whatever warped vision for an ideal society Nicholas and his wife (see the hypocrisy? He's a sect leader for his own personality cult, not a visionary for a free culture) had. Until they broke down in the face of normal people in the IS roughly two centuries after I'd have them expected to.

And there's a second, separate killing stroke: While this isn't spelled out anywhere, in my head canon the reappearance of the SLS Manassas and her genuine Star Leage era crew with firsthand knowledge of the real Star League must have been a tremendous watershed for the breakdown of Clan culture, as the crew innocently unmasked Nicholas's lies and manipulations about what the Star League was and how it worked, and how different it was from the Clans.
The Clan warrior leaders would have kept that secret as best as they could; the scientists, probably not so much.

[Kit deSummersville]

If you want to look at things that way you can say the same for the usurper Stefan Amaris.

Exactly.

[beachhead1985]

Yeah...

As they are in Canon; the Clans are an evolutionary dead end that just keeps getting worse.

As a player faction even the reasons for playing them going forward are fading; you've basically got some good fluff that's going bad as time goes on, but even their tech advantage had faded markedly, even as tech in the game overall has failed to advance organically.

This is why in writing the Clans in Der Tag I did a lot to make them, oh I dunno; REACT to the changes in themselves and the environment, instead of just going with it. This has led to increased factionalism in the AU vs a unified force, but Der Tag also lacks a single strong unified alliance to challenge them.

[Jellico]

The goal on Nicholas' society was to survive the next 5 minutes in the Pentagon Worlds without factionalism slitting each others throats. That is about where the artificiality ends and natural forces take over.

This in a universe where one of the major factions demands its citizens play samurai. It is hard to avoid the pots for the kettles.

However you lost me at humane. That is a word that you need to be really careful about. Some awful societies by modern western standards were very successful for a very long time. Heck human rights, rule of law, and democracy have been a ticket to failure  for most of history. It is no accident that those nations with a humane tradition exist far from cockpits of national competition like the Middle East and steppes of Asia.

The only real standard for the success of a society is its continued existence in the face of internal, external, and environmental threats. They can twist and evolve to so this. They can wipe out their own citizens with extreme suffering if they feel like it. As long as the society survives.

Is that bleak and horrible. Yep. But it is worth remembering that sweet and light Athens (yes I know) lost to brutish and nasty Sparta. History only rewards humame behavior if it leads to survival. Sometimes it dies. Sometimes it doesn't.

The Clans still exist and are exploring different survival models in different ecologically niches. Hardly a failure. Unless someone is saying the Clan can't evolve.

[Frabby]

The goal on Nicholas' society was to survive the next 5 minutes in the Pentagon Worlds without factionalism slitting each others throats. That is about where the artificiality ends and natural forces take over.

Disagree.

The Second Exodus participiants already had survived up until this point, and were in no immediate danger of being wiped out (or even attacked).

What Nicholas did was to artificially and brutally sever their connections to the past, specifically with the aim of rooting out factionalism for good. Going forward, they would be only one thing: Clans.
To be that, they abolished their natural cultural heritage and replaced it with a caste system, artificial design baby birth, an artificial or at least heavily language, inconsistent and even contradictory broad  and a bunch of contrived faux rituals and trials in lieu of proper laws, made up by Nicholas (broadly, and very much on the fly in specific instances).

Nicholas pretty much formed them into the ideal society for emotionally scarred sociopaths like himself. The Clans are not a healthy environment for, well, normal people. That's what I mean when I describe their culture as artificial.
And outside of the extreme niche of the Exodus Civil Wars, such a culture wouldn't be able to thrive - what's a warrior people without an enemy to fight?

Natural forces only took over once Nicholas bit the dust, freeing his creation from his reigns. Given the amount of care and control that went into the creation of the Clan society in the first place, and their declared reason for existing (vague as it may have been), the subsequent evolution of Clan culture cannot be described as anything but a failure in my eyes.
To survive isn't enough to mark it a success for me. Because "survival" ought to take into account the terrible price Nicholas made them pay in order go down this path that led them nowhere.