SLDF Lack of dedicated Inf Dropships

[Daryk]

The Union would work.  Taking out the two Fighter cubicles gives you 300 tons, which could be four light vehicle bays (at 50 tons each) and two infantry platoons to round out a combined arms company with almost a hundred tons of cargo left over for consumables and spares.

[2ndAcr]

 My problem is I don't know how to modify Dropships for MekHQ play. Plus my unit was going to be infantry hefty. 4 Battalions of Infantry. Guess I will soldier on until 2800 or so and then sell some Dropships to buy Condor and Seeker when they become available.

 I would modify an Intruder in a heartbeat since it has a decent cargo load I can swipe from. Or even a Lion. Ripping out the Mechs for infantry bays and adding more light vehicle bays.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I modified the file for the Aquilla to match the version in Interstellar Operations, calling it the "DropShuttles" instead of "Standard". Had to edit the file for the ship by hand and save it as a new file in another folder.

[Hellraiser]

There is a line, somewhere, I don't recall where, I want to say it was in one of the Merc Handbooks maybe? that talked about primitive tech before we got the new TW era stats for primitive tech.

Somewhere it mentioned that there are SL era derivatives of any DS found in DS&JS even if those ships were given late SL intro dates.

The DS from DS&JS were replacing whatever it was from the Age of War.

So basically there is some form of ancient "Condor" out there that moves battalion-regiments of infantry.


Obviously now we have the Czar that fills in the blank of what that ancient AoW version of the Condor really was & I for one think its a very nice ship.

But I just wanted to mention that somewhere there is a line stating that there are more DS than we have stats for.  But its a 10-20 year old quote & I really can't recall where I saw it right now.


Or you can go converted Mule-Overlord, either of those will give you a BIG cavern of infantry transport space & are your most likely candidates for having an infantry mover variant.

[2ndAcr]

 Okay, I did more digging and found the Czar buried in MekHQ.........you have to use Unofficial setting for tech level. Go figure. Plus did some tinkering after I tripped over it. Found it was super easy to lower Intruder cargo to 600 and boost infantry to 18 Plts. If I so desired anyway. But I might play with a Lion or 2 and boost their light armor carry capability. Not sure yet.

 Czar is nice and big, but that armor is weak. Plus not keen on it's quirks. So decided to use 2 Drost Dropships instead, even though I am pretty sure they were pre drop collar. Heavier armor and faster to boot. Just have to use 2 instead of 1 ship. Seeing as my unit is ex-SLDF, ships are no problem.

[Colt Ward]

They were also post-collar, if you read the fluff while the Hegemony may have quite producing them other companies kept churning out clones.  They survive, in what should be decent numbers IMO based on the description, until the modern era.

[Jellico]

Frankly I don't know why we have Mech carriers able to handle more than a battalion let alone infantry carriers.

Mech bays and their ilk exist to get a combat unit into action quickly. Often under fire. In reality the biggest Mech transport in the game is going to be a bare bones Mule or something equivalent with the Mechs tied down as cargo. The same is true of any other unit and cargo containers for self contained infantry berths have been described before.
In other words, where is the need to deploy large numbers of infantry straight into combat in the second wave?

[Kit deSummersville]

You mean the US Army doesn't shuttle all it's soldiers around in Bradley's?

[gomiville]

Frankly I don't know why we have Mech carriers able to handle more than a battalion let alone infantry carriers.

Mech bays and their ilk exist to get a combat unit into action quickly. Often under fire. In reality the biggest Mech transport in the game is going to be a bare bones Mule or something equivalent with the Mechs tied down as cargo. The same is true of any other unit and cargo containers for self contained infantry berths have been described before.
In other words, where is the need to deploy large numbers of infantry straight into combat in the second wave?

This is an argument for the small craft orbital insertion method, I think.  If you're deploying infantry in large numbers, it's probably not a raid, and you've probably gained at least momentary space supremacy.  So, park a ship in orbit and start dropping platoons or companies of infantry close to where you want them.  I'm picturing small spheroid shuttles, able to land in any relatively flat field or parking lot. 

Need to take that media broadcast station?  Drop shuttles by the front and back doors. Want to secure that crossroads?  Drop a shuttle.  Need spotters on the high ground over a valley?  Shuttle.

Infantry are already niche elements, compared to 'mechs.  You're not throwing masses of troops into the grinder, Stalingrad style.  You're throwing masses of 'mechs into the grinder.  It looks cooler. 

So, deploy the infantry in small lots where they're needed most.  Then follow on with dragooned civilian liners and regiments worth of infantry walking off the ship onto the tarmac.

[SteelRaven]

BT has a number infantry transports that can be carried on existing Dropships so a Cheyenne or Pelican is not really needed.

[Colt Ward]

 . . . your not going to pull that Heavy Tracked APC up into a light veh bay and leave the troops inside.

[SteelRaven]

I never said they would be in the APC the ENTIRE time.

Might as well ask where the Mechwariors and Tank Crew sleep during the trip.

[snewsom2997]

. . . your not going to pull that Heavy Tracked APC up into a light veh bay and leave the troops inside.

You could, wouldn't recommend it though if you want the troops to fight for your side once planetside.

[Arkansas Warrior]

For those operating on the "DropShips are Higgins Boats" theory, why not?  They're only going to be in there a few hours tops.  They could lounge around the vehicle bay for most of that time, only buttoning up just before time to roll out.

[Kit deSummersville]

For those operating on the "DropShips are Higgins Boats" theory, why not?  They're only going to be in there a few hours tops.  They could lounge around the vehicle bay for most of that time, only buttoning up just before time to roll out.

Well, even assuming it's only a few hours, I don't know if the inside of an APC is designed to accommodate the rotation of the DropShip from acceleration to deceleration.

[Weirdo]

As I understand it, most APCs are tightly packed enough that there really isn't enough room for dangerous bouncing around when the ship goes inertial for turnover.

[SteelRaven]

If we are talking rapid deployment (rapid as BTU deployments can get anyway) I would imagine BTU APCs would be built to accommodate Dropship travel like the USCMC M577 of the Aliens franchise.
They made it safe for Mechwarriors, I would imagine it was pioneered for PBI and tank crews. 

If that is a misconception on my part, the I would need to ask if their are any hard limits on crew capacity of the upper decks of the drop ship. Load up the upper deck like a C-130 and wait till your planet side to make your way down to cargo and load into the APCs while 'Mechs secure the deployment area.   

[Colt Ward]

Yes, they should be able to roll on and roll off though IMO that ability is different than a light vehicle cubicle.  I really wish we had something for small craft to be able to do that- a LCT type, similar to how armored vehicles are secured on lowboys, railcars and aircraft today.

For tactical deployment from Intruders or other combined arms transports I would absolutely imagine that the infantry load up in their APC/IFV/ISV, strap in and enjoy the trip planet side.  The vehicle driver is instructed by the loadmaster what order their unloading would be, some DS crew personnel would play ground guide to the driver & VC/TC, down the ramp and out on the new planet.

But those troops are not sitting in the vehicle's troop space the whole week or so between the planet and jump point or however many weeks they spend recharging to jump to their destination.  A (real) mechanized infantry company will need 3 platoon bays (15t) and either 3 light vehicle bays if you are using platoon-sized transports (150t) or 12 light vehicle bays if you are using squad-sized transports (600t) which is a waste of DS transport space.

Add to this not all infantry units will be mechanized or motorized- a vast majority should be regular foot, LPCs being their mode of transport.  Others could be airborne, using either conventionals or small craft for their air drops, some will be engineers, some will be military police, and even more will be support troops.  Techs, quartermaster/supply, admin, or any of the other 'tail' functions would use 'infantry' non-combat transport methods.  Each will have their own vehicles to transport and they should not go in a vehicle cubicle- though I admit I have planned on occasion for mech repair equipment to go in a light veh bay for my mercs.

Next consideration would be the MASH/CASH team . . . I think a Fury would work well for a small medical support team transport though a Condor might be more appropriate for a RCT combat movement . . . though it violates the 'eggs in 1 basket' rule.

Staying outside of the RCT transports and some of the 'discovered' SL stuff like the Lee & Colossus . . . IMO the most JS-friendly way to move a RCT for a invasion is to use-

Combat Drop
8 Overlords
1 Fortress
1 Union
1 Excalibur
2 Triumph
2 Intruders
1 Condor- MASH

2nd Wave
2 Jumbo- Armor/Infantry/Techs as cargo w/supplies
2 Jumbo- Supplies
1 Aquaduct- fuel carrier

21 Dropships not including what is needed to get aero support to the fight, or gunships for escort.  Mechs set down in 8 battalion transports, 1 company transport and part of 2 combined arms transports.  The combined arms transports will deposit 2 armor regiments and a company.  The armor transports puts another regiment into combat, and can have roughly a battalion of infantry in place.  Honestly not sure the Triumphs are needed if a commander can get one of the rare Excaliburs.

[SCC]

Um, Colt Ward, how many regiments of 'Mechs does this RCT have?

[Death by Lasers]

  That seems like a good/efficient mix, although from canon Dropship RATs (AT2, FM:U, etc.) it looks like most the Successor States tend to use a lot more small Dropships like Unions and the like than Overlords.  I'm not sure if this is also true in the Star-League but I have a feeling its the same.

  As to why they do I honestly have no idea although I'm sure with a little creativity someone can find or come up with a good fluff justification.  Maybe something like the smaller Dropships are easier to find Dropports for or they tax the Jumpships less.

  At the very least the smaller Dropships tend to provide more armor and firepower per mech but at an extremely steep cost not only in the price of the actual ship but in the number of docking collars needed to transport the flotilla.

[SteelRaven]

BTU seems to be one of those Sci-fi universes that believe in doing more with less (Why I keep bringing up Aliens, notice how small those Marine deployments happen to be?) It's unrealistic compared to actual military deployments but the BTU only keeps one foot in reality, we are talking about universe that focuses Giant Stompy Robots after all.

[2ndAcr]

 Colt might be talking about a SLDF RCT which was roughly 3 Mech Reg strong

[truetanker]

Colt~

I'd use more Gazelles than Jumbo, allowing to even go as far as incorporating DroST, Fury and Gazelle in a one-two-three combo.

Hear me out:
DroST for the heavy Tanks ( up to 22 or so Tanks ), some Infantry ( 10 PBI ), Fury for more Infantry ( 4 PBI  ) and lighter Tanks ( 8 Tanks ) with the Gazelle carrying even more light Tanks ( up to 15 or so Tanks ).

This means just these three droppers equals to a possible mixed Battalion already. And add a Union with it's ASF support.... Bingo! Now we're at the magic four number... A full house for a Liberty...

TT

[Colt Ward]

Sorry I was flipping back and forth- I meant 2 Overlords.

TT, the reason you use Jumbos rather than Drost (which also takes them on as cargo btw), Fury or Gazelle is that you are moving them as cargo since they are not rolling right off into battle.  You load whatever armor units you want to do that with on Triumphs or the Excalibur.  The Jumbo also can load the infantry and support elements along with supplies- the whole point was the least number of hulls with a moderate strategic flexibility.

Death By Lasers . . . I agree that the Houses will have more single company transports than Overlords, but we are talking about a RCT which would generally get to draw on the best equipment.  A single mech regiment being transported by itself is more likely to have a Overlord, 5 Unions, a Seeker (Mech) and 2 Leopards with escorts if they even have a Overlord available.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Boilerman put together a spreadsheet years ago showing what a full strength RCT would look like down to the last cook and paper-pusher, including all transport assets.  I've got a copy somewhere, I'll link it if I can find it.

[Colt Ward]

Oh I was just looking at the first and second wave . . . to move the whole thing like a PCS?  I expect that would take years, because the dependents would also move on the House dime most likely.  And quite a few DS will be needed to move the supply structure.

[Demon55]

Boilerman put together a spreadsheet years ago showing what a full strength RCT would look like down to the last cook and paper-pusher, including all transport assets.  I've got a copy somewhere, I'll link it if I can find it.

Find its.  We must have this!  But if you cannot that is okay.  It may have been from quite sometime ago.

I could see the SL using civilian transports that had the amenities stripped out or modifying an existing dropship. 

Have a great day!
-Demon55

[Arkansas Warrior]

Sorry, got sidetracked.  Spreadsheet is linked below.

[Archangel]

TT, the reason you use Jumbos rather than Drost (which also takes them on as cargo btw), Fury or Gazelle is that you are moving them as cargo since they are not rolling right off into battle.  You load whatever armor units you want to do that with on Triumphs or the Excalibur.  The Jumbo also can load the infantry and support elements along with supplies- the whole point was the least number of hulls with a moderate strategic flexibility.

How well does the Jumbo work when the RCT has to quickly retreat from the planet due to superior enemy forces?  Especially when the assigned passengers and equipment are spread out across a continent guarding multiple locations (cities, military bases, supply depots, etc)?

The RCT unit commander would have to make the choice between abandoning troops, putting the DropShip and its passengers at ever increasing risk of being shot down each time it makes a pickup or assign a disproportionate number of fighters as escorts (thereby taking those fighters from other escort duties).

Not to mention the age-old mantra of 'Plan for the worst, hope for the best.'  What if they discovered the defenders were stronger (or simply closer) than expected and they were possibly going into a hot LZ or needed to quickly deploy into combat lest the wave 1 forces get overwhelmed?  Or discovered it after their LZ is suddenly in danger of being overrun?  Using a single DropShip like you propose the RCT can lose a huge portion of its combat strength in an instant.

[truetanker]

I think Boilerman might need to redesign the RCT.

We now have the Dictator and Command Dictator dropships.

TT