Air on tabletop?

[CDAT]

Where would I find the rules for using Aerospace on the tabletop? All I can find is the abstract aerospace system, an the Aerospace Units on the Ground Map but that is only talking about stuff like taking off and landing. So if I want to have them on the tabletop where do I find the rules for that?

[nckestrel]

There aren't any for Alpha Strike. 

[CDAT]

Well that sucks, we are planing to have a game this weekend and were talking about using aircraft, but there is no desire to try playing two games at once, so I guess aircraft are never going to get used locally. May have to look into Helicopters, they are on the board correct?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The abstract aerospace allows for fighters to swoop in over the table and make attacks on ground units.  Their turn radius is too wide to let them maneuver over the table -- that's why there's the radar map to let them wheel around and come in again.

And yes VTOLs count as "ground units" but they fly around with an altitude measured in inches above the table surface.

[sadlerbw]

Were you hoping to have the air units fight each other on the ground map, or just fight the ground units? If it's just the ground units, you could probably skip the radar map and just say anyone over, what is it, 10 thrust gets to attack every turn, while anything slower gets to attack every other turn. By attack I mean draw a flight path over the ground map as described in the AS rules. You can add a delay saying they don't show up for two or three turns if you want to represent the time it takes to fly in from the edge of the radar map without actually having to use it. Or you can have them dive right in if you want.

This would be house-rules stuff, but if you just want to get them on the map fighting the ground units and not each other, this would be a simple way to do it.

[CDAT]

No, we just want to have close air support. We do not want fast movers (as in real life they kind of suck for CAS), we still use aircraft in our battletech games we just use AeroTech as that is when you could have either a fast mover or CAS.

[Weirdo]

Simplest solution there would be to use the Radar Map like normal, but deploy all air units in the Inner Ring to get them to the fight faster, and have a gentleman's agreement between the players to refrain from air-to-air shots.

[Lord Cameron]

May have to look into Helicopters, they are on the board correct?

I would suggest using Vtols, they mix in with ground battles much better than aerospace fighters

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If you want to use air to ground but don't want to do any air to air.... just have the CAS show up on turns it would have if you were using the radar map.  E.G. turn 3, and every other turn thereafter (3,5,7,9, etc)

[NeonKnight]

If you want to use air to ground but don't want to do any air to air.... just have the CAS show up on turns it would have if you were using the radar map.  E.G. turn 3, and every other turn thereafter (3,5,7,9, etc)

Yep, just do it every other turn. They affect the table, can be shot at by ground units, etc, but start a round after the first (i.e. Start round 2 onwards, but then every other round) this way no one needs to worry about the Air Units with regards to initial placement.

[CDAT]

But none of this does what I was hopeing to do. I was thinking two things, one using my GHQ A-10's for some CAS on standby, not every other turn, but loitering and waiting for a call. And second using my Boomerangs to sport for my artillery, again just having them loiter and spot. Both things that are very easy to do in real life today, but impossible under the current (and most post AeroTech) rule sets.

Now I do understand that this is a game, and does not fit with real life, but that does not make it any less frustrating when you come up with a plan and then find out that the rules were made so that it can not be done, not even close.

[NeonKnight]

But none of this does what I was hopeing to do. I was thinking two things, one using my GHQ A-10's for some CAS on standby, not every other turn, but loitering and waiting for a call. And second using my Boomerangs to sport for my artillery, again just having them loiter and spot. Both things that are very easy to do in real life today, but impossible under the current (and most post AeroTech) rule sets.

Now I do understand that this is a game, and does not fit with real life, but that does not make it any less frustrating when you come up with a plan and then find out that the rules were made so that it can not be done, not even close.

WRT the A-10's then they wait 'off-board' until the call, simple, don't need them until turn 5, they sit off board, neither attacking/spotting nor being attacked until needed. Once they do come on board, they would then need to wait a turn before returning.

As to the Boomerangs, are their Fixed Winger or like a VTOL? Or are the the BT Boomerang? If the latter, then unfortunately, it needs to follow the same rules as any other Aerospace type unit. If it were like a VTOL, then it follows the same as any other  ground unit.

[CDAT]

WRT the A-10's then they wait 'off-board' until the call, simple, don't need them until turn 5, they sit off board, neither attacking/spotting nor being attacked until needed. Once they do come on board, they would then need to wait a turn before returning.

As to the Boomerangs, are their Fixed Winger or like a VTOL? Or are the the BT Boomerang? If the latter, then unfortunately, it needs to follow the same rules as any other Aerospace type unit. If it were like a VTOL, then it follows the same as any other  ground unit.

First off I have no idea what WRT stands for, but thanks for trying to help. I am seeing that this is just one more of the things that does not work for me with AS. We have been trying it out lately, but so far are finding it very confusing and not flowing well. As well as not working how we (and maybe we are the only ones who want it our way) want to see things done, as a scaled up version of how we play battletech. The fighters are a good example we use them in our normal tabletop games where they are on the board every turn, fighting both ground and air targets. But if we scale up to a larger battle on a bigger battlefield then we can no longer stay on the battlefield, but must only use afterburners every turn and make slashing attacks? So anyway thank you for trying to help, I am trying to keep an open mind (not sure how well) but like I said keep running into confusion with the rules not making sense and not being able to do things that we can in the smaller scale game, that to us at least should be easier to do in a larger scale.

[NeonKnight]

First off I have no idea what WRT stands for, but thanks for trying to help. I am seeing that this is just one more of the things that does not work for me with AS. We have been trying it out lately, but so far are finding it very confusing and not flowing well. As well as not working how we (and maybe we are the only ones who want it our way) want to see things done, as a scaled up version of how we play battletech. The fighters are a good example we use them in our normal tabletop games where they are on the board every turn, fighting both ground and air targets. But if we scale up to a larger battle on a bigger battlefield then we can no longer stay on the battlefield, but must only use afterburners every turn and make slashing attacks? So anyway thank you for trying to help, I am trying to keep an open mind (not sure how well) but like I said keep running into confusion with the rules not making sense and not being able to do things that we can in the smaller scale game, that to us at least should be easier to do in a larger scale.

WRT = With Regards To

[sadlerbw]

The fighters are a good example we use them in our normal tabletop games where they are on the board every turn, fighting both ground and air targets. But if we scale up to a larger battle on a bigger battlefield then we can no longer stay on the battlefield, but must only use afterburners every turn and make slashing attacks?

I'm confused. Are you saying that both those statements are how it works in your games currently, or are you saying being on the board all the time attacking both kinds of targets is how you play now, but the second part about every other turn is what you think Alpha Strike would make you do? I don't know the Aerotech 2 rules so I'm not sure quite what you meant.

Alpha Strike lets you attack other targets in the air, but instead of a second hex map for the air units with each hex representing one ground map, you just use the generic radar map. You can also attack targets on the ground. If your unit is fast enough, you can attack every turn. If you are slower, it takes a turn for you to get turned around and set up for another attack run across the ground map. Given that each turn is supposed to be about 10 seconds, that isn't terribly unreasonable. If you don't like the 'slow units take time to turn around' bit, you can ignore it if you want.

As for using planes to spot for artillery, you most certainly can do that. There is text in the most recent errata that notes any aerospace unit with the RCN special ability can spot for artillery if it is in the central zone (meaning it flew over the ground battle.)

[glitterboy2098]

actually strike is more like each turn is somewhere between 10 and 30 seconds.. damage is amplified (representing multiple shots a turn), and movement is increased. but it doesn't map exactly to the battleforce set up of 30 seconds per turn.


basically what everyone is suggesting is that since fighters move so fast, and alpha strike uses a 1 hex = 2 inches conversion, you'd need a map the size of a basketball court to reach a point where keeping fighters constantly on the map actually works.

just use the ground attack rules in the Alpha Strike rulebooks (where you draw out a straight flight path and can bomb or attack units along it).
only instead of trackign things on the radar map's zones when the planes are not over the ground battlefield, just have a schedule for them.
basically, if the fighter is one of the fast interceptor types that could move more than one radar zone per turn it gets to attack every turn after say, turn 2. (if the controlling player wants to.. if not, assume it is flying around just outside the battlefield until called for)
while the slower planes (which could only cross one radar zone a turn normally) can attack every other turn after say, turn 3. (again, if the controlling players wants them to. if not, they still have a one turn 'cool down' before they can return and attack again.)

the delay before they can be used the first time would reflect the time it takes for them to move from where ever they were loitering before the battle to the area of the battle. (basically, the time it takes to cross from outside the radar map to the center)

track for each plane or group of planes operating together. if you have a full squadron of mechbusters for example, you might want to deploy them in two aircraft elements, giving you three groups. you could then stagger their entry into the fight so that you have one pair attacking every turn.


once they get used to having air support on their side, introduce the option for the planes making their attack runs shoot each other rather than the ground units. (and watch as they start investing in the interceptors to provide top cover.)

once they have gotten used to that, then you introduce the radar map and running a concurrent battle on it.

[CDAT]

basically what everyone is suggesting is that since fighters move so fast, and alpha strike uses a 1 hex = 2 inches conversion, you'd need a map the size of a basketball court to reach a point where keeping fighters constantly on the map actually works.

And this here is the issue I think we are having, we do not want to use fast movers. Most of our group has real world military experience and know first hand that fast movers are not good close air support. So we want slow close air support and this is something that TPTB do not want us to be able to use (My guess based on how they have taken everything that let them be used out of the rules.) So my guess is that we will just not use them at all, but once again thank you to everyone who has tried to help, just my luck that we want to much realism in the game.

[glitterboy2098]

doesn't have to be a fast mover. a fighter moves 18 (IIRC) hexes per point of velocity in aerotech.
that is 36 inches in AS. and in low altitude your generally moving about velocity 4-6 (IIRC) (this is not the AS movement value btw.. that is their thrust, the amount by which they could increase or decrease their velocity)

so your looking at distances per turn in the order of 144 inches(12ft) to 216 inches (18 feet), with the fighter having to move a minimum of 36 inches/3 feet before it could make a single hexside turn.

basically, even the slow fighters cross over a battlefield so fast that you can't really operate them like a regular unit. just drawing a flightpath line and having them attack anything along it (as the AS rules say to do) is actually fairly accurate to how it works.

[Thorvidar]

And this here is the issue I think we are having, we do not want to use fast movers. Most of our group has real world military experience and know first hand that fast movers are not good close air support. So we want slow close air support and this is something that TPTB do not want us to be able to use (My guess based on how they have taken everything that let them be used out of the rules.) So my guess is that we will just not use them at all, but once again thank you to everyone who has tried to help, just my luck that we want to much realism in the game.

If you want the C-130 of the Battletech world, sorry it does not exist. You can have heavy close air support, but just like the A-10 it takes a moment to line up for its attack run, calculate the best angle of ordnance release, etc...

The issue with Air power as most likely pointed out by other players is that the good ones take 3 turns to arrive, then they can fire every other turn. So most of the game you have no support ( Ie the air support unit makes a run and then has to make a wide turn to come around for another pass).  Air support can be devestating even in Alpha strike, however its easy to knock them out of the sky with a skill roll for hitting them with MG at close range... really even one point of damage for that pilot check. Then they nose dart into the ground, that 40+ point unit. In real life an A-10 gets hit, it just does not immediately nose dive into the ground. Because of this tendency, Air support is not as useful as good old off board arty or hell even on board arty.

I think a way of solving this is to only force the skill check when its threshold is beaten. So a heavy Air support unit with a threshold of 3 wont get knocked out of the sky by just a machine gun.

[nckestrel]

There are some armed Karnovs...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Because the abstract aerospace system requires units to move at least one sector per turn, it's just impossible to do an indefinite orbit of the battlefield (central zone) until the ideal moment comes for an airstrike.  The central zone is adjacent to only one zone: the Inner Ring that consists of only one zone.  If your Aero unit is in the Inner Ring, it MUST come in over the central zone or move out into a zone in the Middle Ring (sectors A-F).  If you choose the latter, it'll then be impossible to perform an air strike on the following turn from the Middle Ring (for anything but the fastest interceptors, at any rate).

So round 1, you move from the outer ring to the middle ring.  Round 2, middle to inner.  Round 3, an airstrike becomes possible by moving from the inner ring to the central zone.  If you decline to do so at this exact time, moving from the inner back to the middle on Round 3 means no airstrike is possible until round 5.  Certainly can't get airstrikes "on tap" unless you can get an aero unit fast enough to move 2 sectors every round.  And there's no rules at all to address "Gunships" in the vein of Spooky/Spectre style converted cargo craft.

[CDAT]

doesn't have to be a fast mover. a fighter moves 18 (IIRC) hexes per point of velocity in aerotech.
that is 36 inches in AS. and in low altitude your generally moving about velocity 4-6 (IIRC) (this is not the AS movement value btw.. that is their thrust, the amount by which they could increase or decrease their velocity)

so your looking at distances per turn in the order of 144 inches(12ft) to 216 inches (18 feet), with the fighter having to move a minimum of 36 inches/3 feet before it could make a single hexside turn.

basically, even the slow fighters cross over a battlefield so fast that you can't really operate them like a regular unit. just drawing a flightpath line and having them attack anything along it (as the AS rules say to do) is actually fairly accurate to how it works.

And that to me would be a fast mover. The last time they had slow movers/CAS was in AeroTech, every rule set after that has been all fast movers (at least in my opinion).

Because the abstract aerospace system requires units to move at least one sector per turn, it's just impossible to do an indefinite orbit of the battlefield (central zone) until the ideal moment comes for an airstrike.  The central zone is adjacent to only one zone: the Inner Ring that consists of only one zone.  If your Aero unit is in the Inner Ring, it MUST come in over the central zone or move out into a zone in the Middle Ring (sectors A-F).  If you choose the latter, it'll then be impossible to perform an air strike on the following turn from the Middle Ring (for anything but the fastest interceptors, at any rate).

So round 1, you move from the outer ring to the middle ring.  Round 2, middle to inner.  Round 3, an airstrike becomes possible by moving from the inner ring to the central zone.  If you decline to do so at this exact time, moving from the inner back to the middle on Round 3 means no airstrike is possible until round 5.  Certainly can't get airstrikes "on tap" unless you can get an aero unit fast enough to move 2 sectors every round.  And there's no rules at all to address "Gunships" in the vein of Spooky/Spectre style converted cargo craft.

But again there used to be, and that is why we wanted to find out if you could still do what you were able to in the past.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

You could make house rules.  Personally, I don't see any reason why you HAVE to move out of the inner zone if you're in it.  Why not literally circle around the battlefield, awaiting the best moment to scream in overhead?

Plus there's rules for Anti-Aircraft Arrow fire from the central zone at aero units in the inner zone.  You could house rule up some gunship fire missions using artillery back down at the ground from the Inner Zone.  It'd probably be pretty easy and straightforward to do... much easier than the chore of actually statting up such units :)

[glitterboy2098]

And that to me would be a fast mover. The last time they had slow movers/CAS was in AeroTech, every rule set after that has been all fast movers (at least in my opinion).But again there used to be, and that is why we wanted to find out if you could still do what you were able to in the past.

that is the slow movers. not even supersonic. your looking at minimum of 9-12 feet a turn for even stuff as sluggish as a Boomerang
fast movers would cover way more ground.

[Daemion]

First off, the rules for aero units on the ground map sheets are part of Total Warfare, and were part of AT2: It's a direct port. This means, if you want to do the conversion from BT/TW to AS, it would simply be a matter of changing the size of each hex and the minimum movement of 8 hexes before a turn, unless they've finally errata'd that. (Approximately 3 if you decide to round up. Convert that to inches via AS hex conversion and that's 6 inches. And, with 30 second turns, you would effectively get up to 3 turns in an AS turn.)

Secondly, the slashing attack was how AT1 and core AT2 and now TW handled air-to-ground interactions. Most aerial units fought it out on a low altitude map where each hex is a ground map-sheet in AT2 and in TW. On that, you could circle the fight zone, and with using ground maps for low altitude maps you could have actual terrain features to get in the way.

AT1, the fighters were so fast they only fought on what constituted an ultra-high altitude map, where the planet took up a single hex and atmo the surrounding hexes. (Oh, yes, I imagine there was some minor anti-grav going on to keep the pilots from becoming paste.) The only interaction they had were the slashing attacks on the ground map.

If you really want slow movers, you might want to take a look at the rules for TRo 1945, which has some low-altitude scale conversions for the slower warplanes of WWII.



 

[Descronan]

If you're not already a member of the facebook page, join Battletech International Alpha Strike = https://www.facebook.com/groups/BattletechInternationalAlphaStrike/

I've pinned a zip file that includes an aerospace cheat sheet to help with this.

[iamfanboy]

In real life, an A-10 Warthog has a stall speed of 130+ MPH - or 220+ KPH. In Battletech terms, that's STILL 20 hexes or 40 inches. A C-130's stall speed is still 120 MPH - or 190 KPH. Its minimal turn radius is quite large as well, compared to an AS mapspace that's 360m x 720m large. Even using the specs of IRL 'slow flying' support units, they would STILL need to circle around in the Inner Ring radar space unless they describe an arc that starts at, say, the friendly corner of the battlefield and ends at the opposite friendly quarter... and even then, they'd be curving around in that "Inner Ring" space adjacent to the friendly quarter.

Plus, Battletech doesn't HAVE close dedicated air support fighters like you describe. The closest things in the fixed-wing zones are conventionals like Mechbusters, which has a speed roughly equivalent to the A-10 Warhog from my understanding. Or VTOLs, but those are hardly fixed-wing aircraft.

What has your group been using in standard Battletech that would need conversion?

[glitterboy2098]

mechbuster is more like an F-15 with a battleship cannon in the nose.

[CDAT]

If you're not already a member of the facebook page, join Battletech International Alpha Strike = https://www.facebook.com/groups/BattletechInternationalAlphaStrike/

I've pinned a zip file that includes an aerospace cheat sheet to help with this.

Thank you for the offer, but not going to happen. I have nothing to do with facebook at all.

What has your group been using in standard Battletech that would need conversion?

We have been using AeroTech rules, so as they are very outdated they would not convert to AS but in BattleTech they are very usable and keep the birds on the tabletop. So that is one of the reasons we were trying to find out how to play on the tabletop. As it is not an option and we do not want to use two maps, we will most likely just not ever use aircraft in AS, and this means we will play it less as we mostly do campaigns and right now our group has a mech company, and two air lances. Telling four of our players that you can not do anything for the first several turns and even after you get on the board you are only able to do something every other turn does not sound like something my group will think is fun.

[Daemion]

Wait. So, you're giving up because there are no official rules for this?

[Achtung Minen!]

I made my own "air on map" rules and I am quite happy with them. They are very simple, but you have to understand that I designed them with a hex map in mind (I play Alpha Strike with the old Battletech hex maps for the most part) and they are not true aerospace rules... that is, they are meant to represent close air support in a Battlemech game, not a complete air combat system with dogfighting, barrel rolls etc.

Basically, every turn, a player can place an aerospace fighter anywhere on the battle map instead of moving a 'Mech. The aerospace fighter attacks from that position, determining range and line of sight just like it was a normal unit. Once it is on the table, it can be targeted just like a normal unit as well, so it is important to choose an attack vector that will limit return fire from the ground (I give aerospace a +2 target type modifier, since they don't have a TMM). Once the turn is over, all aerospace fighters are removed from the table and may be placed again next turn.

The only exception to this rule is if one aerospace fighter wants to intercept another. If that happens, the interceptor is placed directly behind the target fighter and can make an attack at short range (if the interceptor has twice or more MV), medium range (if interceptor has equal or more MV), long range (if interceptor has less MV) or extreme range (if interceptor has half or less MV).

[Scotty]

That's... literally exactly how it works in Alpha Strike, except rather than being placed on a single hex, fighters draw a line across the board for their flight path.  Including the +2 modifier for aerospace units.  The mechanism for fighter on fighter combat is different, but that's about it.

[Achtung Minen!]

Well, Alpha Strike rules for airstrikes don't leave the model on the table (so there is no point in having a model at all), and they use a dumb aerospace map with concentric circles which means your aerospace fighter can only show up every three or four turns (what an awful rule!). I wanted to take the rules and modify them as little as possible, but change it so that you could actually put your nicely painted model on the battle map and actually use it more than once or twice a game (in fact, you can use it every single turn, regardless of MV, just like a 'Mech or any other unit).

[Scotty]

Neither of those things you said is true.  My group places the fighter's model where it enters the field, and either a second model where it exits or some way to mark it (like a d6 or something).  The abstract aerospace map is set up in such a way that sufficiently fast fighters (Thrust 10+) can make a pass over the map every single turn.  Slower fighters (Thrust 9 or less) make passes every other turn.  Certainly not every third or fourth turn!  In fact, there is way at all (short of hovering in place with an aerodyne dropship, small craft, or airship, or being engaged by another fighter [which would reasonably interfere with that anyway]) that a fighter will take more than every other turn to get back to the field.

My group also has a 3' x 3' abstract aero map, admittedly, so our nicely painted models are in use every turn.

[nckestrel]

The main issue with aerospace doing actual movement on the tabletop is that one of AS's design goals is not measuring angles for turns.  Aerospace moving on the ground map without them amounts to either straight lines (which is what it does now), or just place the aerospace behind it's target.

If you want to measure angles, then go for it.  Perhaps three moves for aero on the ground map, once before all other units (and when possilby any abstract map units would move), then once along with other units, and then finally a move after all other units have moved.  Each move must go in a straight line from it's starting facing, with a minimum of it's thrust and a maximum of three times it's thrust?  At the end of the move, a single turn with a maximum of 90 degrees (chosen purely because it's a fairly simple check)?
And maybe have aeros declare (possibly even resolve) their combat during their third move. So a strafe has to be along that third move, bombing run along it, etc.

(Just brainstorming, I haven't tried this at all).  Feel free to try it and tell me how I missed something obviously wrong ;).

[Scotty]

My untested/theoretical way to model aerospace maneuvering over the ground map is by letting them turn up to 180 degrees around a pie plate (round template) that is their thrust rating in inches across.  So something like an Eagle would have a 6" turning radius.  Fast fighters wouldn't be able to turn around as fast, and have more difficulty avoiding entering ground fire envelopes.

Primary issues are that 180 degrees is a big turn, but limiting it more than that requires a lot of "yeah that looks right".  Otherwise I'd go for 60, 90, or maybe even 120.

[truetanker]

If I used aero on AS, could I use bombs and would it lose MP doing so?

TT

[nckestrel]

If I used aero on AS, could I use bombs and would it lose MP doing so?

TT

Yes and yes.

[Descronan]

My untested/theoretical way to model aerospace maneuvering over the ground map is by letting them turn up to 180 degrees around a pie plate (round template) that is their thrust rating in inches across.  So something like an Eagle would have a 6" turning radius.  Fast fighters wouldn't be able to turn around as fast, and have more difficulty avoiding entering ground fire envelopes.

Primary issues are that 180 degrees is a big turn, but limiting it more than that requires a lot of "yeah that looks right".  Otherwise I'd go for 60, 90, or maybe even 120.

Consider that most modern aircraft have a stall speed of about 100 MPH or 160 KPH. That means they would "have" to move a minimum of 32" in Alpha Strike measurements.

Also, the speed of the craft doesn't really impact its turning rate assuming it has a similar stall speed. And if your turn is 90 degrees, you should be able to do that easily with the hex bases as your guide. That worked pretty well with Robotech RPG Tactics.

[Scotty]

Consider that we're not dealing with modern aircraft, and then further consider that "reduce speed to just above stall" is not generally how aircraft avoid anti-air fire while banking.  Faster fighters are not going to slow down to a lowest common stall speed just so that turn radii can be identical across fighters.  Show me a fighter that can take the same distance tight radius turn at Mach 3 as 200 KPH and I will show you a dead pilot.  Additionally, smaller and faster fighters are already arguably better for their points than heavy fighters and this felt like a reasonable way to give heavy fighters an on-the-table advantage that light fighters lack.

Most of the fighters I own are not on hex bases, but that point of yours is a good one.

[Descronan]

Consider that we're not dealing with modern aircraft, and then further consider that "reduce speed to just above stall" is not generally how aircraft avoid anti-air fire while banking.  Faster fighters are not going to slow down to a lowest common stall speed just so that turn radii can be identical across fighters.  Show me a fighter that can take the same distance tight radius turn at Mach 3 as 200 KPH and I will show you a dead pilot.  Additionally, smaller and faster fighters are already arguably better for their points than heavy fighters and this felt like a reasonable way to give heavy fighters an on-the-table advantage that light fighters lack.

Most of the fighters I own are not on hex bases, but that point of yours is a good one.

Fast attacks are the reason why a straight flight line makes more sense than allowing turns with Aero. Its also one of the reasons why I think Aero needs a higher mod when targeted by ground units.

If the stall speed of most aircraft (non-VSTOL) is 32", then the modifier to hit them should be at minimum equal to a 32" movement. After all, aero don't get the benefit of cover. Assuming 32" movement rate, that's +4 TMM and another +1 for being airborne. Of course its "crazy" to be consistent with movement rules... right?  :D

Also, keep in mind that Aero with VSTOL should be able to enter the battlefield and "land" while still hovering over the map. The following round, they can "take off" from their hovering position. That allows them to be onboard for 2 rounds in a row. I'm not sure if that's an official use of VSTOL, but it makes sense to me.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I don't agree with the premise that 32" of movement by a ground unit is equivalent to 32" of movement by an aerospace unit.  Speed in of itself isn't the issue that makes you hard to hit.  The calculations necessary to properly lead a target at a given speed and range have been perfected over 1000 years ago as of the time most Alpha Strike games are set.  What makes "fast movers" on the ground hard to hit is their ability to juke and bob and weave.  Suddenly stop.  Suddenly start.  Hairpin turn.  Sidestep.  Etc.   The aerospace units rocketing overhead are moving very very fast, but also very very predictably.  They can't "juke" the way ground units can.  Just lead the target, and the Aero unit can't help but fly right into the shot you send up into the sky.

Now I *do* agree that something in the air-vs-ground dynamic should change in the aero units' favor, but higher TMM just because they're "faster" isn't something I agree is the right path.  (tangent alert: I kind of like the idea of letting Aero units fire at targets outside their striking/strafing template.  Or making ALL air to ground attacks ignore terrain & maybe TMM -- not just bombs)

[Descronan]

I don't agree with the premise that 32" of movement by a ground unit is equivalent to 32" of movement by an aerospace unit.  Speed in of itself isn't the issue that makes you hard to hit.  The calculations necessary to properly lead a target at a given speed and range have been perfected over 1000 years ago as of the time most Alpha Strike games are set.  What makes "fast movers" on the ground hard to hit is their ability to juke and bob and weave.  Suddenly stop.  Suddenly start.  Hairpin turn.  Sidestep.  Etc.   The aerospace units rocketing overhead are moving very very fast, but also very very predictably.  They can't "juke" the way ground units can.  Just lead the target, and the Aero unit can't help but fly right into the shot you send up into the sky.

That's just it, 32" of movement is the MINIMUM movement needed to stay aloft for modern aircraft. Ground attacks are typically done at much higher speeds - 150 to 200 MPH, or about 46+ inches. And while I agree that movement alone isn't the only factor on targeting, the AS rules don't support any "juking" unless you use Evade. Besides that, advanced aircraft would have countermeasures, flairs, radar jamming equipment, chaff, etc. And the lack of cover is a big deal.

I keep coming back that aircraft need to have declared elevations. So if I want to be at medium range, I come in at an elevation of 12" or whatever. It's easy to do. Just place a d20 as your elevation marker.

And I don't really agree with the basic modifiers to hit for things like striking with a +4... Just let me use my TMM, Cover, and skill like normal. That makes aero much more effective (perhaps too effective), but that should be reflected in the PV.

I'd be happy with a default 4 TMM for Aero, losing the "airborne" mod for taking a straight path. Then add range mods like normal. So if you want to come in at 6" elevation, ground units need 8 to hit you from short range.

Lastly, range should be measured from the flightpath to the ground unit or elevation, whichever is higher. I know that's not precise, but its "close enough" for tabletop gaming. So if I'm 6" from your flight path and you're 6" elevation, I'm shooting you from 6" (actual Pythagorean distance would be 8.48").

Anyway, these are ideas I'm putting into my house rules doc. I'll have to come up with an easy modifier for the aerospace PV I think.

[CDAT]

That's just it, 32" of movement is the MINIMUM movement needed to stay aloft for modern aircraft. Ground attacks are typically done at much higher speeds - 150 to 200 MPH, or about 46+ inches. And while I agree that movement alone isn't the only factor on targeting, the AS rules don't support any "juking" unless you use Evade. Besides that, advanced aircraft would have countermeasures, flairs, radar jamming equipment, chaff, etc. And the lack of cover is a big deal.

That is the minimum movement needed to stay aloft because of how they are made (for speed, not ground attack/slow speed and stability). Same goes for why ground attack is done at much higher speeds as that is what the aircraft is made for, not what is best for the mission. And why are they made for speed? I see two main reason, one - this is how they keep from getting hit as we do not have magic armor like they do in battletech. If we did you could take things like the A-10 or the A-1 Skyraider and make them super ground attack/support aircraft. Two - the powers that be do not want to do close air support, they only want fast movers or as a second class big bombers/cargo planes. This is the reason that the USAF has been trying to kill the A-10 from the day it was accepted into service.
 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

That is the minimum movement needed to stay aloft because of how they are made (for speed, not ground attack/slow speed and stability). Same goes for why ground attack is done at much higher speeds as that is what the aircraft is made for, not what is best for the mission. And why are they made for speed? I see two main reason, one - this is how they keep from getting hit as we do not have magic armor like they do in battletech. If we did you could take things like the A-10 or the A-1 Skyraider and make them super ground attack/support aircraft. Two - the powers that be do not want to do close air support, they only want fast movers or as a second class big bombers/cargo planes. This is the reason that the USAF has been trying to kill the A-10 from the day it was accepted into service.

The reason the real world Powers That Be want fast moving CAS aircraft isn't so much that they're harder to hit but that fast movers can get *to* the battlefield faster to perform their CAS mission faster than a slower one could.

And the USAF hasn't been trying to kill off the A-10 ever since about 1991.  They were actually about to transfer them all over to the Army, up until they changed their mind in the aftermath of Desert Storm.  These days, there's actually a good bit of kicking and screaming to hold ON to the A-10s.

Now the latter is just a tangent to the thread, but the former is kind of relevant.  If you're using, say, subsonic aircraft for your CAS you're lucky to even get them to show up before the ground battle resolves itself without the air support.  They will have had to have been based very close by, or been dispatched long before the ground battle even began.  Either is a fairly plausible scenario, but it's not so plausible to presume you'll always have at least one of those two factors in your favor.   And that impracticality factors in to the fasanomics/in-universe logistics:  do you want to acquire the CAS aircraft that you can only use some of the time, or the CAS aircraft that you can use most of the time?  (that's also the question that will ultimately doom the A-10)

[CDAT]

The reason the real world Powers That Be want fast moving CAS aircraft isn't so much that they're harder to hit but that fast movers can get *to* the battlefield faster to perform their CAS mission faster than a slower one could.

OK, yes they may be able to get to the battle faster, but they do a much worse job once there. Some of the best ordnance that we have is very difficult for them to use as you have to be going speeds that are to slow for some of them, to do easily.

And the USAF hasn't been trying to kill off the A-10 ever since about 1991.  They were actually about to transfer them all over to the Army, up until they changed their mind in the aftermath of Desert Storm.  These days, there's actually a good bit of kicking and screaming to hold ON to the A-10s.

And yet they are trying to kill it right now, they were trying to kill it before Desert Storm, did not want them to go to Desert Storm. Tried to kill it after Desert Storm, also they were never looking to transfer them to the Army (as that would be against the USAF/USA Military Charter). They only made them to keep the Army out of the close air support aircraft business.

Now the latter is just a tangent to the thread, but the former is kind of relevant.  If you're using, say, subsonic aircraft for your CAS you're lucky to even get them to show up before the ground battle resolves itself without the air support.  They will have had to have been based very close by, or been dispatched long before the ground battle even began.  Either is a fairly plausible scenario, but it's not so plausible to presume you'll always have at least one of those two factors in your favor.   And that impracticality factors in to the fasanomics/in-universe logistics:  do you want to acquire the CAS aircraft that you can only use some of the time, or the CAS aircraft that you can use most of the time?  (that's also the question that will ultimately doom the A-10)

And yet real world what is the most used CAS? The AH-64 Apache, yes it is the slowest of all but by proper planing it is either with the ground troops before the fight starts or around where the fight may start. You need something that can loiter, and this is one more thing that the fast movers can not do, the A-10 is not bad, but something like the Sky Raider was even better (I have read reports of them being on station for up to about eight hours on a single fuel load).

[Descronan]

I'll just post a couple links for consideration. I know table top and reality don't HAVE to match up, but it's nice when it does.

A-10 Warthog
Stall speed = 220 kph (about 44" AS movement)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II#Specifications_.28A-10A.29

Cessna 340 propellar
Stall speed = 153 kph (about 30" AS movement)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_340#Specifications_.28340A.29

P-51 Mustang
Stall speed = 160 kph (about 32" AS movement)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang#Specifications_.28P-51D_Mustang.29

[Scotty]

Combat aircraft don't drop to stall speed when conducting attack runs.  It's a special kind of suicidal to reduce speed enough that the physical impact of being shot can cause you to slow down enough to stall and crash.

[Descronan]

Combat aircraft don't drop to stall speed when conducting attack runs.  It's a special kind of suicidal to reduce speed enough that the physical impact of being shot can cause you to slow down enough to stall and crash.

Exactly! That's been my point from the beginning. That's why it doesn't make sense to allow aerospace fighters to "turn" while doing an attack run.  O0