Author Topic: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?  (Read 5443 times)

truetanker

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So I am currently trying to make Zeta Galaxy, Clan Stone Lion circa 3090. Converting my clan into AS.

While I do know there isn't any Aero yet, such as Transport or even Jumpers, combat or non, currently being deployed within the cards yet. I still like to commit a full TO&E.


What would you use to transport your goodies to combat and or around you little space?

I'm currently looking at Broadsword, Carrier, Confederate C, Lion C, Lion WD, Outpost, Outpost 3070, Mercer, Titan C, Union C and even the old Jumbo, after all it is a Cargo boat, light on armor and weapons. Perfect for the Merchant Caste.

What I wouldn't use is the Overlord C and Sassanid. Why you might ask? Egg in the Basket thing. I don't want to lose a complete Trinary to combat lose AND a Transport all in one. But I'd risk an Outpost.

See I think weird... weird is good for me, not everyone is cut out to be weird. Worktroll, Werido and Jellico are weird. But that's why they are some of the best people to ask how to or what if questions to. Heck even Randal or Peter are weird. Ray? Not so much but then again he's got a lot on his plate now weird. And Herb? Let's not talk about him... his overlord felines tell him what weird thing to do next.  :P


I'm curious on what you'd use to carry your troops in.

THIS IS NOT A NON-CANON THREAD> So please leave your TO&E out of this.

Just what you'd use is all.

Thanks,
TT
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2017, 10:18:05 »

WoR, p. 171, first full paragraph indicates that the Lions are using their "Tokasha facility as a bargaining chip in negotiations for transportation assets and raw ores."  This indicates that the Lions' dropships and/or jumpships may not be enough to do the job.  How you want to be constrained is up to you, but riffing off that excerpt, the Lions may:

-- Be using non-standard or non-military dropships for touman transport,
-- Have some of their touman transported by dropships and crews on loan from the Adders, Cobras, or Coyotes, and/or
-- Be forced into using larger dropships because of limited jumpship numbers and collars.

Or some combination of the above.

FWIW...

« Last Edit: 15 May 2017, 10:51:25 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
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Vition2

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2017, 10:42:24 »

-- Be using non-standard or non-military dropships for touman transport,


This is what I first thought, before even getting to your post Natasha.  So that means Buccaneers and Mules when safcon is part of the bid - which is probably nearly universal in the post Wars of Reaving Kerensky Cluster. 

When safcon isn't expected, falling back on lots of small military transports might be the option - smaller everything seems to be significantly easier and faster to manufacture than larger anything in the BTU (larger more efficient equipment seem to have artificial constraints to their production).  So anything that carries a star's worth, and more often than not, newer ship types are more likely to be seen than old, mostly due to attrition.  That means, Broadswords, Sassanids, Carriers, Arcadias, and Union-Cs - basically anything below 5000 tons, combat vehicles are probably still going to be carried by the vehicle transport version of the Buccaneer.

Using civilian transports allows the cluster to be transported on a single jumpship.  Unfortunately the non-safcon route looks to be using 5 or more jumpships for the entire cluster, assuming mostly Invaders (though this could be as few as 2 or much more).

wantec

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #3 on: 15 May 2017, 10:49:02 »
This is what I first thought, before even getting to your post Natasha.  So that means Buccaneers and Mules when safcon is part of the bid - which is probably nearly universal in the post Wars of Reaving Kerensky Cluster. 

When safcon isn't expected, falling back on lots of small military transports might be the option - smaller everything seems to be significantly easier and faster to manufacture than larger anything in the BTU (larger more efficient equipment seem to have artificial constraints to their production).  So anything that carries a star's worth, and more often than not, newer ship types are more likely to be seen than old, mostly due to attrition.  That means, Broadswords, Sassanids, Carriers, Arcadias, and Union-Cs - basically anything below 5000 tons, combat vehicles are probably still going to be carried by the vehicle transport version of the Buccaneer.

Using civilian transports allows the cluster to be transported on a single jumpship.  Unfortunately the non-safcon route looks to be using 5 or more jumpships for the entire cluster, assuming mostly Invaders (though this could be as few as 2 or much more).
Nope. The Cloud Cobras frequently refuse safcon. Prior to the WoR they were one of the top aerospace Clans and now that numbers have shrunk, they are likely the top flyers around. (I'd have to double-check, but I think they are tops). Also, they didn't have as many ground forces to begin with and have less now, so they compensate by challenging most landing attempts. This allows their great aerospace forces to get in the fight more, and whittle down the enemy ground forces to a more acceptable size.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #4 on: 15 May 2017, 10:56:12 »
Nope. The Cloud Cobras frequently refuse safcon. Prior to the WoR they were one of the top aerospace Clans and now that numbers have shrunk, they are likely the top flyers around. (I'd have to double-check, but I think they are tops). Also, they didn't have as many ground forces to begin with and have less now, so they compensate by challenging most landing attempts. This allows their great aerospace forces to get in the fight more, and whittle down the enemy ground forces to a more acceptable size.

This is confirmed in WoR Supp, p. 15, under "Clan Cloud Cobra".  Safcon can't be relied upon in trials with the Cobras, but presumably still works in trials with the Yotes or Adds.

In WoR, the Lions are down to a cluster of aerospace fighters, so they may be especially aversive to declaring trials against the Cobras.

« Last Edit: 15 May 2017, 11:11:33 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Vition2

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #5 on: 15 May 2017, 10:57:00 »
While the Cobras do often refuse safcon, they do allow an alternate version of it, having a trial in space for landing rights.  This doesn't negate the rest of my post, which means civilian transports are still on the table.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #6 on: 15 May 2017, 11:52:19 »

Assuming the Stone Lions are as combined arms-oriented as the Horses were/are, I'd be tempted to focus on the Lion C and Lion-WD for transport.  The Lion C for mech/BA novas and the Lion-WD for landing combat vehicle (or maybe protomech) support after combat dropping its mechs.  3-4 Lion Cs and 1-2 Lion-WDs would transport most/all of the ground forces in an old Hell's Horses cluster.  By being older, Lion dropships also fit the flavor of the Stone Lions' apparently difficult transport situation post-Reavings.  Plus, the name.

The Outpost is somewhat faster and more survivable.  But by carrying a little bit of everything, it's doesn't do any particular transport job well.  Even one mech trinary has to be spread among three Outposts, which seems like a deployment and logistical disaster in the making.

For flavor, you could add a recently captured Mercer to transport rogue striker stars doing recon or headhunting or a command star.  And/or maybe a recently captured Noruff for some assault dropship heft.

For fighter transport, three Carriers definitely beat one Titan.  But we're beginning to push a reasonable number of dropship collars.

FWIW...

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Archangel

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #7 on: 15 May 2017, 16:37:48 »
Given their origins as former Hell's Horses, I figure their go-to carrier would be the Outpost.  I haven't seen anything to suggest a shift away from their combined-arms philosophies.

It certainly wouldn't be a Jumbo (which they might use if nothing else was available but not as their 'go-to carrier').  After all we are talking about the Clans and what would happen if another Clan declares a trial of possession for the DropShip and its contents of the civilian DropShip while it is in transit?  Only a small portion of the unit would actually be able to participate in the actual Trial whether because making them combat ready would take too long (or they would simply be unable to) or the fact that they can't be deployed in the Trial environment (or it would be too risky to).
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #8 on: 15 May 2017, 17:30:53 »
I'd rely on the Outpost, or even the good old Fortress.
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truetanker

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #9 on: 16 May 2017, 07:02:49 »
They do make the Outpost and the 3070 version. Which carries another BA Star, but drops the Aero for Profits.

TT
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #10 on: 16 May 2017, 17:13:24 »
They do make the Outpost and the 3070 version. Which carries another BA Star, but drops the Aero for Profits.

TT
Taking over the Diamond Sharks' role, are they?   ;D
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wantec

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #11 on: 17 May 2017, 06:35:54 »
This is confirmed in WoR Supp, p. 15, under "Clan Cloud Cobra".  Safcon can't be relied upon in trials with the Cobras, but presumably still works in trials with the Yotes or Adds.

In WoR, the Lions are down to a cluster of aerospace fighters, so they may be especially aversive to declaring trials against the Cobras.
...Unless the Lions share a border on the planet with the Cobras. In a case where they could just march up to the border of the enclaves and declare the Trial there, no need for a dropship to transport. Fighters for defending ground forces, but at least those ground forces can defend themselves as well.
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truetanker

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #12 on: 17 May 2017, 14:31:55 »
Taking over the Diamond Sharks' role, are they?   ;D

Oops! I was on lunch break.

Auto spell caught it, meant Protos.

TT
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truetanker

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #13 on: 24 May 2017, 21:30:23 »
Not wanting to modify my last post as most wouldn't even see it.

But I found out that a Standard Cluster could be as small as 2 Binarys or as large as 7 Trinarys.

Leading to multiple dropship classes.

1- Overlord C ( 3 Tri )
2- Union C ( 2 Tri )
3- Broadsword ( 1 Tri )
2- Carrier or a single Titan ( 1 Bi or a single Tri )

The above represents atypical transport of common cluster.

I believe I can mount the following without too much commotions.

1- Union C ( 1 Tri Mech )
1- Lion C ( 1 Bi Mech, funny thing... if I assigned 200 tons as light bays, I could carry 2 Points of Infantry carriers such as Badger C's... 1,000 tons -> @10 tons per Point, 100 Points = 20 Stars = 6 Tri and a Bi Command Cluster of Infantry )
1- Lion WD ( 1 Bi Mech, 1 Bi Tank with Support tanks like Artillery )
2- Carrier ( 1 Bi Aero )
3- Broadsword ( 1 Tri Mech )
1- Outpost ( 1 Bi Mech, 1 Star Elemental, 1 Star Tanks, 2 Point Aero )
1- Outpost 3070 ( 1 Bi Mech, 1 Bi Elemental, 1 Star Tanks, 2 Point Proto )

Something like... 2 Mech Tri, 4 Mech Bi, 1 Aero Bi and 2 Point, 1 Elementl Bi and Star, 1 Tank Bi and 2 Star, 1 Infantry Cluster < 6 Tri and a Command Bi >, 2 Point Proto + a Point of Support Tank.

Thoughts?

TT
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wantec

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2017, 06:20:41 »
I don't know that I'd call either of those extremes "standard", but we can definitely go with the are sizes that have been seen and used in canon before. A standard Cluster would be 3-5 Binaries or Trinaries (the definition found in many sourcebooks). Then a standard Cluster could be as small as 3 Binaries (30 points of units) or as big as 5 Trinaries (75 points of units) and that's all without even considering Novas or Supernovas.
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GermanSumo

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #15 on: 27 May 2017, 16:37:10 »
uhm... the fluff on the mule states that its often used for ferrying troops into non-contested territories. could the clans be using it under the rules of safcon? i dont think, this is too far fetched. clan DO use most of the elder sldf units, they have strict agreements concerning the use of force against pretty much anything (not considering the wars of reaving, though!). was there ever an ingame ruling or construction rule how to modify a mule for ferrying troops?

truetanker

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #16 on: 27 May 2017, 19:08:49 »
Mules are technically SLDF, but... They're​ also new tech.

Jumbo and the DroST are considered more common for ferrying troops in clanspace. Along with the Lion, Confederate and Dictator droppers. Basically anything to transport general cargoes, the clans use. This includes the Carrack and Advatar warships!

TT
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Archangel

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #17 on: 27 May 2017, 22:18:31 »
uhm... the fluff on the mule states that its often used for ferrying troops into non-contested territories. could the clans be using it under the rules of safcon? i dont think, this is too far fetched. clan DO use most of the elder sldf units, they have strict agreements concerning the use of force against pretty much anything (not considering the wars of reaving, though!). was there ever an ingame ruling or construction rule how to modify a mule for ferrying troops?

Uh...no.  Clans are unlikely to directly attack those non-combat transports but there is nothing to stop them from declaring a trial of possession for the DropShip and its contents.  And since 'Mechs and other combat units aren't combat ready when being transported as cargo they would have to sit out the Trial.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2017, 03:44:47 »

I'm currently looking at Broadsword, Carrier, Confederate C, Lion C, Lion WD, Outpost, Outpost 3070, Mercer, Titan C, Union C and even the old Jumbo, after all it is a Cargo boat, light on armor and weapons. Perfect for the Merchant Caste.

What I wouldn't use is the Overlord C and Sassanid. Why you might ask? Egg in the Basket thing. I don't want to lose a complete Trinary to combat lose AND a Transport all in one. But I'd risk an Outpost.

Why is the Sassanid any different in "eggs in a basket" than the Union, Titan, Lion, or Outpost that all carry a Trinary as well?

Overlord carries a small cluster so I can see that even if I don't agree, but not sure why the rest are any different than the Sass.

Given their shortage of transport assets I'd say beggars can't be choosers & if they are light on KF ships then your going to be doubly slammed if your attempting interstellar travel with single Star movers.


I'm not sure how big they are at the time but if that line above about only a single clusters worth of ASF left in the Touman then I'd say the Titan is probably unlikely given that more than any ship would represent "eggs in a basket".


Something like... 2 Mech Tri, 4 Mech Bi, 1 Aero Bi and 2 Point, 1 Elementl Bi and Star, 1 Tank Bi and 2 Star, 1 Infantry Cluster < 6 Tri and a Command Bi >, 2 Point Proto + a Point of Support Tank.

Honestly unless there is something saying they have shifted away from Horses diagram, I would just keep using that but drop the ASF down to a single star given how few they have left.
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truetanker

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2017, 08:34:16 »
Why would I need or use a Sassanid? Outpost and Outpost 3070 can carry all my BA. And I agree with you about the Aero,  but in my version I am just listing what is in transport capability.

Again I'm using hard facts, not what ifs. But I can think of a way of "it's been built so why not? " theory. ( After all, clans hate wasting!  )

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
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If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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Frogfoot

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #20 on: 28 May 2017, 18:52:26 »
Uh...no.  Clans are unlikely to directly attack those non-combat transports but there is nothing to stop them from declaring a trial of possession for the DropShip and its contents.  And since 'Mechs and other combat units aren't combat ready when being transported as cargo they would have to sit out the Trial.

I think this depends on the specifics of the bidding. If you just show up out of the blue with a bunch of Mules full of mechs then you're asking for trouble. However, HW Clans often arrange a Trial with a specific time and place for it to be fought in the near future. If that's the case then Trialing for the cargo droppers that showed up carrying the forces for that Trial could be construed as interference in the Trial, especially when you're laying claim to the combat units that would have fought it. This kind of chicanery would be possible and even likely pre-WoR but the current HW political climate is super strict. The impression I get is that most of the time the post-WoR HW Clans just want to fight honourable stand-up Trials and are paranoid about anything that looks even halfway like it might be 'Tainted' tactics.

I also think a Safcon agreement could certainly be worded to cover stuff like a Mule deploying its forces unmolested. James Cobb and Raina Montose spring to mind - the Horses agreed not to attack them for five years after they'd established their IS holdings... which the Horses had not yet done at the time they turned on the Hellions. The Hellions paid the price for sloppy wording. So when negotiating their Safcon agreement, a Clan deploying its forces in Mules would just need to be extra careful to get the other party to agree the Mules can unload their units before the gloves come off. Again, this is more of a stretch for a pre-WoR environment, but post-WoR it seems more likely.

Archangel

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #21 on: 29 May 2017, 13:33:28 »
I think this depends on the specifics of the bidding.

I was going off the assumption that the only time one would really use Mules (not counting acts of desperation) would be redeploying a unit from one garrison post to another and towards the end of the WoR/post-WoR (given that the OP talks about Stone Lions).  Using Mules to transport troops into a trial would be asking for trouble especially against Clan Cloud Cobra who as far as I can recall generally don't grant safcon to incoming attackers.

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If you just show up out of the blue with a bunch of Mules full of mechs then you're asking for trouble. However, HW Clans often arrange a Trial with a specific time and place for it to be fought in the near future.  If that's the case then Trialing for the cargo droppers that showed up carrying the forces for that Trial could be construed as interference in the Trial, especially when you're laying claim to the combat units that would have fought it. This kind of chicanery would be possible and even likely pre-WoR but the current HW political climate is super strict. The impression I get is that most of the time the post-WoR HW Clans just want to fight honourable stand-up Trials and are paranoid about anything that looks even halfway like it might be 'Tainted' tactics.

Give that the terms of the vast majority of Trials where a unit needs to be transported to a planet by DropShip are decided after the unit jumps into the system without warning, wouldn't that generally be considered 'showing up out of the blue?'

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I also think a Safcon agreement could certainly be worded to cover stuff like a Mule deploying its forces unmolested.

It certainly could but we aren't just talking about unloading them but getting them all ready for combat (loading ammunition/fuel, connecting circuits, testing systems, etc) which can take quite a while depending upon how loaded the DropShip is, where the techs/mechanics are, etc would be stretching the terms by a mile.  "Aren't you finished yet?!? We have been waiting for you for a couple of hours!"  It would be humiliating for a clan commander to not only have to ask for safcon but also for a couple of hours AFTER landing to get their unit combat ready.  I have never heard of that happening.  However I have heard of a clan commander taking advantage of an enemy's inability to bring their full military power into play when the Nova Cats caught the Cloud Cobras' aerospace-only Delta Galaxy by surprise at a time when they were unable to bring ANY of their aerospace fighters into action due to bad whether and weren't willing to wait for the weather to clear with those deployed groundside forced to fight in vehicles while those in space forced to watch helplessly as their brethren lost the Trial.
 
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James Cobb and Raina Montose spring to mind - the Horses agreed not to attack them for five years after they'd established their IS holdings... which the Horses had not yet done at the time they turned on the Hellions. The Hellions paid the price for sloppy wording. So when negotiating their Safcon agreement, a Clan deploying its forces in Mules would just need to be extra careful to get the other party to agree the Mules can unload their units before the gloves come off. Again, this is more of a stretch for a pre-WoR environment, but post-WoR it seems more likely.

That has nothing to do with the matter we are discussing.  That was merely a non-aggression agreement between the Khans not negotiations pertaining to a trial. Regardless safcon had nothing to do with it since neither parties controlled the regions in question nor were any Ice Hellion units being transported on Mules as far as we know.  It would be an extraordinarily foolish thing to do given that they were planning to catch the Falcons by surprise and the chances of being granted safcon were remote.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2017, 13:55:04 by Archangel »
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Vition2

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #22 on: 29 May 2017, 15:37:19 »
Clan trial rules dictate that the challenged get to determine the location of the trial.  So challenging for the contents of a mule can result in a challenge on another planet - or even on the planet in the system it is bringing troops to in order to use them against, in this case, the Cobras.

So it actually behooves the Cobras to allow the attackers the chance to challenge - and to not challenge over the contents of a dropship - at which point they can deny safcon.

Against the Cobras in the post-WoR era, I foresee the typical attack to look something like this:

1. Clan 1 jumps into system.
2. Clan 1 declares challenge.
3. Clan 1 and Cobras determine forces to be used, and Cobras determine location.  Cobras deny safcon.
4. Clan 1 challenges Cobras for safcon/landing rights.
5. Clan 1 and Cobras determine forces to be used, and Cobras determine location.
6. Fight over safcon/landing rights.
7a. Clan 1 wins, lands forces.
7b. Cobras win, safcon denied.
8. Combat over original challenge occurs.

Frogfoot

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #23 on: 29 May 2017, 19:09:49 »
Give that the terms of the vast majority of Trials where a unit needs to be transported to a planet by DropShip are decided after the unit jumps into the system without warning, wouldn't that generally be considered 'showing up out of the blue?'

I was quite specific in separating pre-arranged Trials from opportunistic ones, and only talking about Safcon for the pre-arranged kind

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It certainly could but we aren't just talking about unloading them but getting them all ready for combat (loading ammunition/fuel, connecting circuits, testing systems, etc) which can take quite a while depending upon how loaded the DropShip is, where the techs/mechanics are, etc would be stretching the terms by a mile.  "Aren't you finished yet?!? We have been waiting for you for a couple of hours!"  It would be humiliating for a clan commander to not only have to ask for safcon but also for a couple of hours AFTER landing to get their unit combat ready. 

I don't believe it would be, and especially not in the pre-arranged formal Trials that I was talking about. If the arrangement is that the Trial is to be fought in three days time and you show up one day early, this isn't even a factor.

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That has nothing to do with the matter we are discussing. 

It's pertinent to agreements between Warriors. I brought this up to demonstrate that wording matters and a Warrior's word is their bond. Safcon is an agreement between Warriors, and as you conceded, the specifics of Safcon can be negotiated. No-one said anything about Hellions using Mules. 

Hellraiser

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #24 on: 29 May 2017, 22:00:08 »
Why would I need or use a Sassanid? Outpost and Outpost 3070 can carry all my BA. 


Because you have them on hand.
200 Years of previous production & available available v/s 5-15 years of production.

I'm not saying don't use the Outpost.
I'm saying, why WOULDN'T you use a Sassanid if its already part of the Touman?

Outpost is great for sending a Mixed Trinary to go seize a smaller out of the way objective.

But if your looking to move an entire cluster/galaxy then 3 Trinaries of Mechs & 1 of Elementals all included in the Overlord & Sassanid is certainly not something I'd say no to.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #25 on: 30 May 2017, 10:39:21 »
Uh...no.  Clans are unlikely to directly attack those non-combat transports but there is nothing to stop them from declaring a trial of possession for the DropShip and its contents.  And since 'Mechs and other combat units aren't combat ready when being transported as cargo they would have to sit out the Trial.
Says who?  I've never read anywhere that units being transported to a trial site have to be able to walk off the dropship shooting.  On the contrary, if you granted SafCon, it'd be terribly bad form not to give them a few minutes to unload their units once the ship arrived.
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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #26 on: 30 May 2017, 15:03:00 »

I believe I can mount the following without too much commotions.

1- Union C ( 1 Tri Mech )
1- Lion C ( 1 Bi Mech, funny thing... if I assigned 200 tons as light bays, I could carry 2 Points of Infantry carriers such as Badger C's... 1,000 tons -> @10 tons per Point, 100 Points = 20 Stars = 6 Tri and a Bi Command Cluster of Infantry )

I'm pretty sure the Lion C carries 10 _points_ of unarmored infantry (a binary), not 10 stars.  The fluff was wrong; the RS was right.

I would modify the Lion C to carry 10 points of battle armor, instead of unarmored infantry.  I think that will cut into the Lion C's other cargo by 30 tons.  But it allows the Lion C to coherently deliver a nova binary.  Assuming the Stone Lions like novas as much as the Hell's Horses did, that's important.

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1- Lion WD ( 1 Bi Mech, 1 Bi Tank with Support tanks like Artillery )

I think the Lion WD delivers 8 mechs (not a binary of 10 mechs) and 12 heavy vehicles (not a binary of 20 heavy vehicles).  It could be modified at least a few ways to work for the Stone Lions post-WoR:

10 mechs and 10 heavy vehicles -- mech binary and vehicle star
10 mechs and 20 light vehicles -- mech binary and vehicle binary
10 mechs, 10 light vehicles, and 25 protomechs -- mech binary, vehicle star, and protomech star
10 mechs and 50 protomechs -- mech binary and protomech binary

These all cut into the Lion's other cargo by 100 tons (I think).  But the combination of mechs and combat vehicles certainly fits the Stone Lions' predecessors, the Hell's Horses.  And the incorporation of protomechs certainly plays into a post-WoR force structure.

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1- Outpost ( 1 Bi Mech, 1 Star Elemental, 1 Star Tanks, 2 Point Aero )
1- Outpost 3070 ( 1 Bi Mech, 1 Bi Elemental, 1 Star Tanks, 2 Point Proto )

The two points of aerospace fighters or protomechs on the Outposts make them hard to reconcile with a rational, 5-point-star, force structure.

I'd modify the original Outpost, trading the 4 aerospace fighters (2 points) for 25 protomechs (1 star) and 25 elementals (1 star).  That will also generate 250 tons of mass savings for general cargo (I think).  It allows the Outpost to deliver a good combined arms ground force of 1 nova binary (10 omnimechs/50 elementals), 1 protomech star (25 protomechs), and 1 heavy vehicle star (10 heavy vehicles).  Of course, the heavy vehicle star could be replaced by combinations of light vehicle and/or protomech stars/binaries as with the Lion WD above.

Let Carriers or Titans bring the fighters.

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Something like... 2 Mech Tri, 4 Mech Bi, 1 Aero Bi and 2 Point, 1 Elementl Bi and Star, 1 Tank Bi and 2 Star, 1 Infantry Cluster < 6 Tri and a Command Bi >, 2 Point Proto + a Point of Support Tank.

This seems awfully large (literally an oversized infantry cluster within another oversized cluster) and complex.  I'd stick closer to the canon totals for a Hell's Horses clusters (see http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure):

45 mechs
150 elementals
30 fighters
30 vehicles
375 unarmored infantry

To better fit the post-WoR setting, I'd probably replace the unarmored infantry with a protomech trinary (75 protomechs).

Here are a couple dropship combinations that would approximate the Hell's Horses totals above:

Assault (Iron Guards?) Cluster

Union C -- Mech Trinary (15 Mechs)
Outpost (Post-Reaving) -- Nova Binary A, Proto Star 1, Veh Star 1 (10 Omnis/50 Elems, 25 Protos, 10 Hvy Veh)
Outpost (Post-Reaving) -- Nova Binary B, Proto Star 2, Veh Star 2 (10 Omnis/50 Elems, 25 Protos, 10 Hvy Veh)Outpost (Post-Reaving) -- Nova Binary C, Proto Star 3, Veh Star 3 (10 Omnis/50 Elems, 25 Protos, 10 Hvy Veh)Carrier -- Fighter Binary A (10 Fighters)
Carrier -- Fighter Binary B (10 Fighters)

Totals:  45 Omni/Battlemechs, 150 Elementals, 75 Protomechs, 30 Heavy Vehicles, 20 Fighters

Cavalry (Battle?) Cluster

Lion-C (BA) -- Nova Binary A (10 Omnimechs/50 Elementals)
Lion-C (BA) -- Nova Binary B (10 Omnimechs/50 Elementals)
Lion-WD (Post-Reaving) -- Mech Binary A, Proto Star 1, Lt Veh Star 1 (10 Battlemechs, 50 Protos, 10 Lt Vehs)
Lion-WD (Post-Reaving) -- Mech Binary B, Proto Star 2, Lt Veh Star 2 (10 Battlemechs, 50 Protos, 10 Lt Vehs)
Carrier -- Fighter Binary A (10 Fighters)
Carrier -- Fighter Binary B (10 Fighters)

Totals:  40 Omni/Battlemechs, 100 Elementals, 100 Protomechs, 20 Light Vehicles, 20 Fighters

Note that each of these clusters uses six dropships, meaning each cluster could be transported on a single Star Lord jumpship (although a second jumpship with Mules and other resupply dropships would probably be necessary if logistics were actually tracked).

Hope this helps... FWIW.
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truetanker

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #27 on: 13 June 2017, 18:12:30 »
I was reading again the Jihad Secres, the Blake Documents.

I forgot the Danais dropper!

She was built in 2720 and looks like the Union, being only 400 tons lighter and 12 years later.

I wonder if Kerensk took any? She does carry 1,700 tons of cargo, two Small craft. The Trojan drops to 1,550 cargo and adds weapons, same Small craft Bay.

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Cryhavok101

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Re: Your a REALLY Small Clan, what's your go-to carrier?
« Reply #28 on: 14 June 2017, 15:59:04 »
I would shift as much of my transport capacity as possible into small craft. They are much cheaper, and therefore easier to produce. I would probably try to put all my ground forces in them if I could, and use larger things to transport aerospace assets.

If it was an option, I would probably work on constructing a facility to produce them as well, and use a design a small craft fro the ground up for the job, but make it modular like some DropShips are, so the transport bay could be swapped out for a different one. Assume 150 tons for transport bays, and you get 1 'Mech, or 3 light vehicles, or a lot of infantry, etc.

I would probably join Hell's Horses in moving to more combined arms units than pure 'Mech forces. I would also start specializing all my forces to become skilled orbital droppers, preserving as many of the transports as possible from as much ground fire as I can.