WarShips with No ASF /Small Craft Bays?

[Giovanni Blasini]

There are two WarShips I can immediately recall off the top of my head that have no aerospace fighters, small craft or DropShips: the SLDF version of the Whirlwind and the Bug-Eye. While both ships have cargo bay doors they could use for docking and cargo transfers, neither appear to have any way to get people to the surface and back, which seems extremely shortsighted.

While we know small craft and aerospace fighters can be stored as cargo, and that combat launches require real bays, do we know if WarShips like this could field an ASF/small craft out of their cargo holds, even if it takes an hour or two to launch or recover, using the standard cargo transfer rules?

[Hellraiser]

I don't see why not.  Heck in 0-G its probably easier than unloading cargo on the ground.

Open the big bay door & have 0-G Industrial Suits move it outside to power up.

[idea weenie]

I don't see why not.  Heck in 0-G its probably easier than unloading cargo on the ground.

Open the big bay door & have 0-G Industrial Suits move it outside to power up.

I could see a hot-shot helmsman saying "Watch this".

The helmsman goes down to the cargo bay to make sure the cargo is a single block that will fit through the cargo bay hatch.  She then uses her wireless link to the ship's fusion powered maneuvering jets, and carefully maneuvers the Dropship itself away from the cargo, instead of the crew using small myomer power suits to maneuver the cargo out through the hatch.  The only down side is the usage of fuel as reaction mass, instead of the cargo lifters using electrical power from the fusion plant and taking longer.

[Cryhavok101]

Small craft can dock with any bay door on the ship for cargo and personnel transfer, so they can send people to the surface, they just need to use local transports to do it.

Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head, and a mix of what I remember the rules saying about it and how I would run it where there are gaps in the rules. I didn't actually look it up before I wrote it. Hopefully it's useful anyway.

As for fielding a force from the cargo bay, as I understand it, the rules need a vehicle to be moved out of the cargo bay in order to be prepped for use, and if there aren't facilities for that prepping (IE a proper bay) it takes longer to finish.

In this case it sounds like you would push the fighter out and then do the prepping in an EVA situation, or you could deal with the consequences of hot starting the vehicle from cold storage without preparation, which if I remember correctly, could be catastrophic.

If I were commanding a warship, I would be highly uncomfortably with doing that kind of prepping inside a cargo bay that isn't designed for it. It likely includes things like test-firing the unit's drives in a controlled environment. If you don't have the facilities to count as a controlled environment, then you have an aerospace fighter flying around at speed in your cargo hold. Chances of catastrophe rise swiftly. If you have installed components in your cargo bay to do that prepping safely, then you have basically modified your cargo bay to have a fighter bay, and you should treat it as such.

[truetanker]

Pre- K-F drive warships used small craft dropshuttles in their cargobays for transfers before.

Why not now?

TT

[Giovanni Blasini]

No, they used DropShuttle bays or small craft bays. I'm specifically referring to WarShips that have neither, such as the Whirlwind or Bug-Eye.

[truetanker]

Where, which fact line does it state that?

I'd like to check it out myself.

TT

[Giovanni Blasini]

Where, which fact line does it state that?

I'd like to check it out myself.

TT

Depends on what you're referring to: what pre-KF drive warships do we have specs or rules for?

Primitive JumpShips, meanwhile, clearly used DropShuttle bays.  That's the whole point of DropShuttle bays.

[Hellraiser]

Agreed w/ GB.

Its not a DS in the Cargo Bay.

Its a DSC (Drop Shuttle Cubicle).

Much like a SCC  (Small Craft Cubicle) for Shuttles or an AFC (Aerospace Fighter Cubicle) for Fighters.


Which makes me ask, where is the DSC "rule" introduced?
What product I mean, not just the concept from early sourcebooks.
I'm guessing its in Age of War, but I want to make sure.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Finalizes rules were in Interstellar Operations. Earlier rules were in Mercs Supplemental II...which actually created a 10 kiloton discrepancy in the Cruiser class (haven't figured out the other 40kt discrepancy yet).

[Maingunnery]

Finalizes rules were in Interstellar Operations. Earlier rules were in Mercs Supplemental II...which actually created a 10 kiloton discrepancy in the Cruiser class (haven't figured out the other 40kt discrepancy yet).

You could ask cray?

[Giovanni Blasini]

You could ask cray?

Already did, have his original HMA file, which used Mercs Supplemental II rules for the DropShuttle bay.  His cargo was in the 47-48 kt range. Neither of us have figured out how it jumped to 94 kt when published.

[Maingunnery]

Considering the old rules, did he maybe use a primitive KF drive with less then 15 LY range? (not longer possible)

[Liam's Ghost]

Already did, have his original HMA file, which used Mercs Supplemental II rules for the DropShuttle bay.  His cargo was in the 47-48 kt range. Neither of us have figured out how it jumped to 94 kt when published.

Maybe at some point the naval cannons were changed? I can't remember off the top of my head how much, but a mix of NAC-20s and 10s would save considerable mass over straight tens and basically provide the same damage.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Maybe at some point the naval cannons were changed? I can't remember off the top of my head how much, but a mix of NAC-20s and 10s would save considerable mass over straight tens and basically provide the same damage.

Nope. As submitted, far as we can tell, current weapon loadout, standard KF drive, around 47kt cargo. Recommended errata in the thread is to drop the cargo down to the 37kt range.

[Hellraiser]

Considering the old rules, did he maybe use a primitive KF drive with less then 15 LY range? (not longer possible)

That would have been my guess too.
Add 20% for "Age of War" tech level, I think it was 20% penalty anyway, and you could account for the difference.

[Hellraiser]

There are two WarShips I can immediately recall off the top of my head that have no aerospace fighters, small craft or DropShips: the SLDF version of the Whirlwind and the Bug-Eye. While both ships have cargo bay doors they could use for docking and cargo transfers, neither appear to have any way to get people to the surface and back, which seems extremely shortsighted.

So I get the Bugeye. 
Its not the kind of ship that is ever supposed to offload its crew for anything. 
Not that I agree, but I get it.


But why would the SLDF REMOVE the 2 Shuttle Bays that were already on the Davion-I class?
That just screams typo to me.

[Liam's Ghost]

I was going to come in and suggest the Whirlwind could use escape pods to move small numbers of crew and cargo around, but the whirlwind doesn't carry escape pods, only lifeboats that can't expend thrust on their own.

Though I suppose we can definitely say this was a fleet escort rather than an independent patrol ship, since it has to depend on other craft to carry boats to move the crew around.

But why would the SLDF REMOVE the 2 Shuttle Bays that were already on the Davion-I class?
That just screams typo to me.

The Whirlwind predates the Davion I by publication date, so that would be a typo in the Davion I.  :D

[Hellraiser]

The Whirlwind predates the Davion I by publication date, so that would be a typo in the Davion I.  :D

The Clan one does.

The Davion-I & the WW-SL were both introduced in the same TRO weren't they?   TRO3057U/R?

[Liam's Ghost]

The Clan one does.

The Davion-I & the WW-SL were both introduced in the same TRO weren't they?   TRO3057U/R?

Yes, but the fluff specifically mentions that the fighter bays were added by the clans.

[marauder648]

There's also a few ships that don't have shuttles even if they carry fighters.  The Impavido for example carries 18 fighters but NO small craft.

[Hellraiser]

Yes, but the fluff specifically mentions that the fighter bays were added by the clans.

Well sure, for a full star for the Clan Model, that could be converted the 2 Shuttle Bays to Fighters, if they were there.

But nothing says they removed the Shuttle Bays going from Davion-1 to WW-SLDF which is what I'm saying makes no sense.  And yet the SLDF version lacks the Twin Shuttles of the Dav-1.
That is the odd part.

That and having no Smallcraft of any kind on the ship regardless still seems odd.

[Archangel]

Well sure, for a full star for the Clan Model, that could be converted the 2 Shuttle Bays to Fighters, if they were there.

But nothing says they removed the Shuttle Bays going from Davion-1 to WW-SLDF which is what I'm saying makes no sense.  And yet the SLDF version lacks the Twin Shuttles of the Dav-1.
That is the odd part.

That and having no Smallcraft of any kind on the ship regardless still seems odd.

Who says the Shuttle Bays were removed when the Davion Is were converted to the Whirlwind-Class?  It could have happened later - "A number of subsequent refits extended the life of the vessel to just under 180 years..."(3057r, p134).  They also don't say when the standard armor was replaced with improved ferro-aluminum armor or when the Light N-Gauss' were added.  One needs to remember that the SL specs shown in the book are the specs from the final refit not the specs from the Davion-Whirlwind conversion.

As far as why there were no shuttle craft...you would have to ask the person who redesigned it why he didn't add them.  It isn't the only SL WarShip without shuttlecraft (the Volga, Liberator and the Nightlord don't have any either all of which have greater reason to have them than the Whirlwind).  He might have wanted to emphasize the limited anti-fighter capability of the Whirlwind without reducing the cargo too much.  I assume when the WarShip needs to be resupplied shuttle craft from a resupply base use the fighter bays while the fighters use other fighter bays on another craft or space station or land planetside.

[Hellraiser]

Who says the Shuttle Bays were removed when the Davion Is were converted to the Whirlwind-Class?  It could have happened later - "A number of subsequent refits extended the life of the vessel to just under 180 years..."(3057r, p134).  They also don't say when the standard armor was replaced with improved ferro-aluminum armor or when the Light N-Gauss' were added.  One needs to remember that the SL specs shown in the book are the specs from the final refit not the specs from the Davion-Whirlwind conversion.

So your saying we are looking at the Whirlwind Starleague umpteenth edition.
Nice theory but given we only have the 1 set of stats I'll stick w/ those other refits being "non-stat" based items.

As far as why there were no shuttle craft...you would have to ask the person who redesigned it why he didn't add them.  It isn't the only SL WarShip without shuttlecraft (the Volga, Liberator and the Nightlord don't have any either all of which have greater reason to have them than the Whirlwind).

Those arent SL ships they are Clan ships.
And they HAVE fighter bays which isn't the topic of discussion which is Ships that have NEITHER.

He might have wanted to emphasize the limited anti-fighter capability of the Whirlwind without reducing the cargo too much.  I assume when the WarShip needs to be resupplied shuttle craft from a resupply base use the fighter bays while the fighters use other fighter bays on another craft or space station or land planetside.

Now you have lost me.  There are NO Fighter Bays to use for resupply on the Whirlwind-Starleague

The history looks like this.
Davion-1 = 2 Shuttles + 0 Fighters
Whirlwind-Star League = 0 Shuttles & 0 Fighters
Whirlwind-Clan = 0 Shuttles + 10 Fighters

The issue that I pointed out is that the author of the Davion-1 & the Whirlwind-SL appear to have not spoken to each other, because it makes no sense to remove the 2 Shuttle Bays in the D1>WWSL refit.
Converting them to Fighters like the Clan did would have possibly made some sense, but the middle ground of removing Shuttles before Fighters were ever considers comes across as more of a Typo (author error) that it does a logical refit stage.

[Archangel]

So your saying we are looking at the Whirlwind Starleague umpteenth edition.
Nice theory but given we only have the 1 set of stats I'll stick w/ those other refits being "non-stat" based items.

So your theory is that the SLDF navy made no relevant changes to the Whirlwind after it was originally refitted despite huge advances in military technology?   ^-^

Those arent SL ships they are Clan ships.
And they HAVE fighter bays which isn't the topic of discussion which is Ships that have NEITHER.

The Volga is a SL transport and its SL variant doesn't have any shuttles either despite being designated a transport.


Now you have lost me.  There are NO Fighter Bays to use for resupply on the Whirlwind-Starleague

The history looks like this.
Davion-1 = 2 Shuttles + 0 Fighters
Whirlwind-Star League = 0 Shuttles & 0 Fighters
Whirlwind-Clan = 0 Shuttles + 10 Fighters

The issue that I pointed out is that the author of the Davion-1 & the Whirlwind-SL appear to have not spoken to each other, because it makes no sense to remove the 2 Shuttle Bays in the D1>WWSL refit.
Converting them to Fighters like the Clan did would have possibly made some sense, but the middle ground of removing Shuttles before Fighters were ever considers comes across as more of a Typo (author error) that it does a logical refit stage.
[/quote]

So your theory is that the SLDF navy made no relevant changes to the Whirlwind class after its original refit from its Davion Mk I specs despite huge advances in military technology and likely numerous changes in naval doctrine?   ^-^

The fact is that you are probably asking the wrong question.  It's not why the designer of the Whirlwind removed the shuttle bays but rather why the designer of the Davion Mk I added them since the Whirlwind design was created before the Davion Mk I (I am talking in RL not in-universe here)?  If and when the error was noticed, the Developers likely decided to stay true to the Whirlwinds original design while keeping the Davion Mk I as is rather than waste time redesigning one or the other over 2 shuttle bays.

All I was doing was putting for possible explanations, as you should be well aware if you want the real answer you need to ask your question in the appropriate 'Ask the Dev' or 'Ask the author' boards (that is if anybody still remembers the answer of course).

[Cryhavok101]

Probably because the Star League built the whirlwind as a destroyer and not as a ground support element. It hunts other ships, and the Star League hyper specialized their ships. Removing the 2 small craft bays was an upgrade, literally removing 400 tons of waste. Later the clans added 10 fighter bays for combat reasons.

For resupply: shuttles, DropShips, other Warships, JumpShips, and Space Stations can all be docked at the doors on the cargo bay and don't need their own bays. Any time it needs to resupply, it's gonna do it at a place that actually has it's own shuttles, or at a station it just docks at. It has absolutely no need for shuttles for resupply.

All it means is that the whirlwind won't be doing rest, refit, or resupply at a planet that can't actually handle doing those things for a warship. I see no need for a measly two shuttles. It's not like they would make a useful screen or anything.

So your theory is that the SLDF navy made no relevant changes to the Whirlwind after it was originally refitted despite huge advances in military technology? 

He is talking about cannon stuff actually written in books. You sound like you are expecting him to make it all up and call it cannon. If you can't show stats for another variant of the whirlwind, from one of the TROs, coming in between the SL version we have stats for and the clan version, your point seems pretty invalid. This isn't fan designs after all.

[SCC]

Pre- K-F drive warships used small craft dropshuttles in their cargobays for transfers before.

I think you mean pre-KF-Boom WarShips, which I believe the Dreadnought-class is.

Considering the old rules, did he maybe use a primitive KF drive with less then 15 LY range? (not longer possible)

Did we even have primitive KF-Drive ships that far back? I thought they they were new-ish (Primitives or IO first rules release?)

[Hellraiser]

So your theory is that the SLDF navy made no relevant changes to the Whirlwind after it was originally refitted despite huge advances in military technology?   ^-^

The Volga is a SL transport and its SL variant doesn't have any shuttles either despite being designated a transport. 

1.  None that we have stats for.   Show me stats for different versions, otherwise they are "fluff" upgrades like Computers & Life Support much like swapping the Commo Systems for Mechs over the years.

2.  The Volga's SL variant carries a DOZEN fighters, which once again makes it irrelevant to this discussion which is about ships w/o a single small craft on them.  (Points at the topic thread title)

The fact is that you are probably asking the wrong question.  It's not why the designer of the Whirlwind removed the shuttle bays but rather why the designer of the Davion Mk I added them since the Whirlwind design was created before the Davion Mk I (I am talking in RL not in-universe here)?  If and when the error was noticed, the Developers likely decided to stay true to the Whirlwinds original design while keeping the Davion Mk I as is rather than waste time redesigning one or the other over 2 shuttle bays. 

IRL the ships appeared at the same time.
The SL-WW & the Dav-1 are from the same TRO.
The Clan-WW mentioned the SL-WW not having any fighters but says nothing about Shuttles.

Given it is the only true warship in canon to lack both Fighters AND Shuttles, an odd feature to begin with, & toss in BOTH its Predecessor & Descendant vessels have one or the other small craft options, & to me it seems like an error occurred v/s intentional design of a Warship that lacks a basic "people mover" ability that every other Warship has.

[Hellraiser]

Probably because the Star League built the whirlwind as a destroyer and not as a ground support element. It hunts other ships, and the Star League hyper specialized their ships. Removing the 2 small craft bays was an upgrade, literally removing 400 tons of waste. Later the clans added 10 fighter bays for combat reasons.

For resupply: shuttles, DropShips, other Warships, JumpShips, and Space Stations can all be docked at the doors on the cargo bay and don't need their own bays. Any time it needs to resupply, it's gonna do it at a place that actually has it's own shuttles, or at a station it just docks at. It has absolutely no need for shuttles for resupply.

All it means is that the whirlwind won't be doing rest, refit, or resupply at a planet that can't actually handle doing those things for a warship. I see no need for a measly two shuttles. It's not like they would make a useful screen or anything.

Interesting theory.
I'd be less concerned about refit/resupply then just having a way to get a single person down to the surface of a planet or pick someone up.
Or heck, offload crew after a KF drive failure in a system w/o a shipyard.
Its less about lack of screen than basic utility.
Agreed about 2 being "measly", I don't know if there are too many vessels in canon that pack less than 6 small craft of some type.   Even corvettes & destroyers pack more than 2 bays of some type in just about every other case I can think of.

[Cryhavok101]

Interesting theory.
I'd be less concerned about refit/resupply then just having a way to get a single person down to the surface of a planet or pick someone up.
Or heck, offload crew after a KF drive failure in a system w/o a shipyard.
Its less about lack of screen than basic utility.
Agreed about 2 being "measly", I don't know if there are too many vessels in canon that pack less than 6 small craft of some type.   Even corvettes & destroyers pack more than 2 bays of some type in just about every other case I can think of.

I think, were you or I designing them, they would have had things for that sort of use. If the post-clan invasion inner sphere was designing them, they would have had some. Even the clans wanted it to have something, because they weren't using the ships the same way the Star League was. However, the Star League hyper-specialized their ships, to the point that they don't operate as well as other ships in situations they weren't designed for. It's been something I have noticed or was pointed out to me when talking about flaws and design decisions on several designs. It's also one of the few explanations that fits most of those sort of cases.