Author Topic: Aviation Pictures Part Trois  (Read 192460 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #420 on: 28 November 2017, 09:44:39 »
I might get flak for this but who cares?

British pilot, American F-35B, British Paveway IV bombs, USS America - some very close co-operation going on here.



test footage, or publicity shot?
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #421 on: 28 November 2017, 11:14:16 »
Test, I believe. HMS Queen Elizabeth isn't cleared for flight ops yet, but the RN wants to have trained and qualified carrier pilots the day she IS cleared. So, nearest F-35 capable flat-tops around are American.

Nothing unusual about it. French Rafales have regularly borrowed American decks for similar purposes, after all, and in the Royal Navy's prior carrier days it wasn't all that unusual for their Phantoms and Bucs to do the same.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #422 on: 28 November 2017, 12:19:00 »
test footage, or publicity shot?
I think 90% of any images of military ops released are, by definition, publicity shots :D

But yeah as said above, the US are helping loads to bootstrap the RN/RAF's reintroduction to carrier air. It is planned that QE2 will operate 1 squadron of USMC F-35Bs as well as her own F-35Bs on her maiden operational voyage, and in future US and UK carrier task forces might jointly launch and land F-35 sorties. Hence the need for small but crucial things like training US crews with UK ordnance and vice versa.

Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #423 on: 28 November 2017, 20:39:53 »
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #424 on: 28 November 2017, 23:40:14 »
Ok, those two win the internet for at least a day...

Sharpnel

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #425 on: 29 November 2017, 05:38:41 »
Do not try this at home kids
No way in hell would I ever try that. Too many things could go wrong.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #426 on: 29 November 2017, 06:49:58 »
Jump out of one plane and get in a different plane. That's weird but neat at the same time
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Feenix74

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Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


                                   - excepts from Murphy's Laws of Combat

PsihoKekec

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #428 on: 07 December 2017, 03:36:42 »
Shoot first, laugh later.

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #429 on: 07 December 2017, 03:58:21 »
Heck, just being that close when they're dropping stuff out the back is dangerous enough, but they definitely doubled down on that!

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #430 on: 07 December 2017, 14:58:06 »
It's like the guy who shows up at the end of the garage sale and starts looking around in the boxes.  "Hey, is there anything left over at all?"
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #431 on: 14 December 2017, 19:33:29 »
Y'know, as a pre-Tomcat pure fleet-defense interceptor there's just not a lot it can really do by comparison to the Double Ugly.  It's faster than the F-4, slightly, about 50mph according to Wikipedia.  Combat range is equal to the Phantom as well, and while it can climb faster than the Phantom it surrenders a good ten thousand feet of altitude.  I think the other reason that it never went beyond a "hmm, what if" stage?

Imagine trying to LAND a 104 on a carrier.  That would be a hot screaming nightmare, doubly so if the blown flaps failed (which was not uncommon).  Coming in 30 knots faster (140 vs 170 approach speed) means you have a LOT less time to react to things, and on such a small target...yeah, no.  Takeoff speed for the F-104 was also much, much higher than the air-grabbing Phantom; the typical liftoff for a Starfighter was around 190 knots - with an M61A1, 725 shells, and four Sidewinders.  The Phantom did it with 4.5 times the amount of ordnance...
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #432 on: 14 December 2017, 22:53:17 »
I have to believe that the China Lake test was met not so much with a 'nope' in terms of moving on to carrier trials as a 'oh HELL no', or something similarly strong-worded. There's just no way in hell- as twitchy as the 104 was to begin with, add in a moving, bobbing runway... you couldn't pay me enough to be the test pilot for that bird.
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Deadborder

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #433 on: 14 December 2017, 23:15:04 »
It can't be as bad an experience as the time the USAF ejected a bear from a B-58, right?
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ColBosch

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #434 on: 14 December 2017, 23:57:40 »
I have to believe that the China Lake test was met not so much with a 'nope' in terms of moving on to carrier trials as a 'oh HELL no', or something similarly strong-worded. There's just no way in hell- as twitchy as the 104 was to begin with, add in a moving, bobbing runway... you couldn't pay me enough to be the test pilot for that bird.

I'm given to understand that the F-104 was, ultimately, a terrible plane that killed far too many of its own pilots. I love a lot of Lockheed's aircraft, but the Starfighter was inexcusable.

...and if you really want to get angry, go read up on how Lockheed went about selling the lawn dart.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #435 on: 15 December 2017, 00:09:28 »
aside from the usual "using new technology" problems, it worked great when flown as intended.. straight ahead at high altitude at high speeds. most of the handling issues came from trying to go low and slow. or low and fast.

so of course, the German Airforce decided to make it a low altitude attack bomber...  #P
most of the Fatal accidents were in the german service, as a result of that bone headed decision, when inexperienced pilots were handed a high performance unforgiving interceptor.. and told to fly fast and low just above the treetops..
« Last Edit: 15 December 2017, 00:11:43 by glitterboy2098 »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #436 on: 15 December 2017, 01:23:06 »
Even the Americans tried to push it into the strike fighter role; instead it became a mach two tent peg.  It was just a stupid idea with what was, for the mid-late 1950s, a damn good interceptor.  Should also note it was the first US fighter to carry the M61 vulcan, which was a huge amount of bullet spam and a significant upgrade to the four separate guns featured on US planes of the era...or for that matter the half-dozen .50s present on things like the Sabre.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #437 on: 15 December 2017, 09:16:02 »
I'm given to understand that the F-104 was, ultimately, a terrible plane that killed far too many of its own pilots. I love a lot of Lockheed's aircraft, but the Starfighter was inexcusable.

...and if you really want to get angry, go read up on how Lockheed went about selling the lawn dart.

As with so many Skunk Works ideas, it was thinking way the hell outside the box and seeing what happened when you did. Sometimes that worked out remarkably well, like the P-38 or A-12. Sometimes it was effective but with severe limitations, like the U-2. The Starfighter is most definitely in the latter category- and only just. Those tiny wings meant low drag, and combining it with a J-79 (same engine as the F-4) meant it was closer-related to the Saturn rocket in performance than to other fighters. Buuuuuuut... yeah, it was an incredibly finicky plane that demanded absolute concentration and skill to operate, and the kind of mistakes that might simply cause a bumpy flight for an F-100 would send a 104 straight into the ground. No wings = small control surfaces and airbrakes, so they didn't really recover from things like spins or stalls. German pilots called them Widowmakers for a reason- safe to say that as air forces like Germany and Italy retired their last (surviving) Starfighters, they weren't exactly missed.

I do recall a story from a Luftwaffe pilot who transitioned from the F-104 to the Tornado, saying that after years of running the 104 he felt like he could take a nap while flying his new bird- which is the reason for the second man in the cockpit, to keep the first one awake in case he gets too comfy.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #438 on: 15 December 2017, 18:19:30 »
I love the F104.  So what if the landing speed is faster than most top fuel drag racers! 

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I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #439 on: 15 December 2017, 18:37:41 »
The F104 was used by so many nations. It was fast but a death trap. It sure wasn't a dogfighter or anything close to that mission. I remember someone telling me that the wings were so thin and sharp that they had to put something on the wings so people didn't cut or worse when they bumped into it.
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God and Davion

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #440 on: 16 December 2017, 05:11:54 »
The F104 was used by so many nations. It was fast but a death trap. It sure wasn't a dogfighter or anything close to that mission. I remember someone telling me that the wings were so thin and sharp that they had to put something on the wings so people didn't cut or worse when they bumped into it.

That was a marketing trick, IIRC. Oddly enough, Spain had the F104 an entire decade. None crashed and everybody loved it. The experience couldn't be better.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #441 on: 16 December 2017, 05:26:10 »
Ok I need some internet brain help. In my human factors ergonomics lectures, the professor was talking about control design and mentioned either a flap or spoiler lever of a fighter or fighter jet that rigged in a way that the engineers thought was spatially appropriate, maybe rearward for flaps extended. However in one or more go-around accidents, the pilot simply “grabbed a handful” and threw it toward the firewall causing a sudden loss of lift and a stall accident.

What airplane would this have been?
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #442 on: 16 December 2017, 05:35:19 »
Honestly, could be any plane in a landing situation where they're just over stall speed and retract flaps - the point where VS1 becomes VSPLAT doesn't have to be very large.  And like TransAsia 235, a minor roll condition at the same time as a loss of lift is catastrophic.

I've not heard of any particular incident with that happening, but it's all too easy a situation in the case of pilot error.  See also TA235 again, where the aircraft suffered a flameout and returned on one engine, then mistakenly shut down the functioning engine without enough altitude or velocity to maintain lift.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #443 on: 16 December 2017, 17:13:05 »
Ok I need some internet brain help. In my human factors ergonomics lectures, the professor was talking about control design and mentioned either a flap or spoiler lever of a fighter or fighter jet that rigged in a way that the engineers thought was spatially appropriate, maybe rearward for flaps extended. However in one or more go-around accidents, the pilot simply “grabbed a handful” and threw it toward the firewall causing a sudden loss of lift and a stall accident.

What airplane would this have been?

I am pretty sure that is how Richard Bong died, he was flying a P80 and needed to go around and he applied power too quickly and the compressor on the engine stalled.


glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #444 on: 16 December 2017, 18:07:02 »
That was a marketing trick, IIRC. Oddly enough, Spain had the F104 an entire decade. None crashed and everybody loved it. The experience couldn't be better.

yeah. though the U-2, which used a [very heavily] modified starfighter fuselage actually did have issues with the thinness of its wings.. those giant sailplane like wings had issues during the construction that if you bumped into them with something hard, like a toolbox, or dropped tools, you'd leave sizeable dents. at least according to all the books i've read about its development.

I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #445 on: 16 December 2017, 22:12:30 »
You drop anything heavy on a plane you will dent it. Planes are strong but some places are very weak.
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Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #446 on: 17 December 2017, 00:57:18 »
Yep, that's why aircraft have "NO STEP" written all over the place

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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Euphonium

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #447 on: 17 December 2017, 07:28:16 »
Yep, that's why aircraft have "NO STEP" written all over the place

Which makes it fun when you have three people standing on the wingroot of a Chipmonk :-)
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #448 on: 17 December 2017, 10:19:45 »
Honestly, could be any plane in a landing situation where they're just over stall speed and retract flaps - the point where VS1 becomes VSPLAT doesn't have to be very large.  And like TransAsia 235, a minor roll condition at the same time as a loss of lift is catastrophic.

I've not heard of any particular incident with that happening, but it's all too easy a situation in the case of pilot error.  See also TA235 again, where the aircraft suffered a flameout and returned on one engine, then mistakenly shut down the functioning engine without enough altitude or velocity to maintain lift.

Well the key feature was control ergonomics. It was an example of bad thrust lever design where it was actually possible to “grab a handful and throw it to the firewall”. And it may have been spoiler deployment as much as flap retraction. In either case it’s a reason why the handles are much better separated now.
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Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #449 on: 17 December 2017, 20:48:33 »
Which makes it fun when you have three people standing on the wingroot of a Chipmonk :-)

Yep, makes it much harder to do these type of squadron photos:

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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