Early C3 question - lance synergies

[Phobos101]

Hi all,
I'm looking to put together a couple of lances based on C3 systems for inner sphere, late SUccession war/early clan invasion era, and I've hit a bit of a wall digging through MUL and record sheets trying to figure out what would work well together. Are there any lance combinations of canon mechs that work well together in a C3 enabled force, or do I need to go to construction? I don't mind building my own, but I prefer to use canon mechs where possible, for fluff/feel reasons.I'm particularly interested in,'if possible, a LRM/NARC/C3 type arrangement, but I'm open to other ideas

 Also, what can you tell me about your play experiences with C3? What weapons work well with it, how do you use it? Or is it a waste of tonnage which would be better spent on machine gun ammo?

I look forward to stealing your military secrets  :)

[Firesprocket]

While there are some early Clan Invasion Era C3 mechs, you won't find a large variety of mechs with it until after 3054.  House Kurita was more or less exclusively the only user of the system at that point and time and its use was limited due to the lack of mechs that were retrofitted with a Master system and mechwarrior bias against it.  The mechs that can use the system at the time are a bit underwhelming, but C3 boosts the ability of nearly everything.  ECM wasn't really needed for anything, so the odds of running into something that would mess up your network are rather low.

Using it is pretty simple, get a capable spotter into a advantageous position to get better numbers with a variety of longer range weapons and make your opponent cry.  BV is generally unkind to a c3 system because for the cost you could simply take better pilots or additional units.  A MG, as it were, isn't going to add much value unless you know you are fighting infantry.  C3 is a force multiplier, but once that can easily be cancelled out by an intelligent player using ECM.  Advanced rules and your own ECM (to cancel the effect of any ECM) make up for it though.  At the end of the day, I don't feel it is worth playing with unless you are using a Tac Ops set of rules.

[Empyrus]

I figure C3 works better in non-BV environment due to issues Firesprocket mentions. A campaign or such, where a GM can adjust OpFor to keep things balanced and TacOps rules are more likely to be included.

Not sure but Alpha Strike may have C3 system a bit more better balanced, since the cost is baked into units rather than being an extra percentage, and C3 modules grant other abilities to the units as well, benefiting some other optional rules.

Note that C3 benefits only direct-fire attacks. Indirect fire doesn't get any benefits, and since one big use of Narc is to enable indirect fire without spotter, Narc and C3 don't really play nice with each other.
Since Artemis IV is requires direct fire, combine that with C3 for better synergy.

[Kovax]

As long as you can get a spotter into a closer range band (and survive the encounter), C3 is a potential game changer.  The problem is that BV penalizes it pretty heavily.

[Natasha Kerensky]

As Firesprocket mentioned, to field C3 in that era, you're really stuck with House Kurita.

You're also stuck with slower lances because there's no C3 master on a platform faster than 4-6-X until 3058 (I think)

And although you could always slap a C3 slave on an old Archer or Longbow, there's no good dedicated C3 LRM boat in the canon until the Naginata appears in 3055 (I think).

The company below can be fielded by 3055.  If you trade out the Naginata for the Cyclops or other substitute, you can field this company by 3054 or earlier.

The Fire Lance is what you're after in terms of large LRM volleys guided by C3 slaves.  It throws 105 LRMs per turn.  Be sure to take advantage of the Naginata's Artemis IV FCS, which as Empyrus noted, works better with C3 than Narc.

C3 Command Lance
AS7-CM Atlas
AS7-C Atlas
VTR-C Victor
GHR-C Grasshopper

C3 Fire Lance
NG-3CA Naginata (or CP-11-C Cyclops)
MAL-C Mauler
CGR-C Charger
QKD-C Quickdraw

C3 Heavy Lance
HTM-CM Hatamoto Hi
HTM-C Hatamoto Hi
DRG-C Grand Dragon
KTO-C Kintaro

Hope this helps.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

In AS, the pricing on C3 is 1/2 the price to upgrade the unit's pilot from 4 to 3.  That'd be doable as a house rule in CBT, and might make it viable for competitive play balanced by BV.

[Sartris]

earliest canon variant with C3 rolls off the line in 3050.

3050
C3M - AS7-CM, CP-11-C, HTM-CM
C3S - JR7-C, DRG-C, HTM-C, AS7-C

3051
C3S - PNT-C, KTO-C, MAL-C

3052
C3M - HTM-27T (Daniel II)
C3S - RXT1-OD, GRH-C, CGR-C

3053
C3S - QKD-C

3054
C3S - VTR-C, SDR-C

3055
C3M - NG-C3A
C3S - PNT-CA

3056
C3M - SD1-OB, AV1-OC
C3S - HM-2, OW-1, OW-1A/B/C/D. CRB-C, HBK-4G (Hohiro)

3057
C3M - CRK-5003-CM
C3S - SR1-OA/C/D, FS9-OB/C/D, BJ2-OB, CRK-5003-C

3058
C3S - HER-4K, KTO-K, BHKU-OX, CPLT-K5, ON1-MC, SD1-OC

[Phobos101]

Thank you all for the responses. There's some really good information here - pretty much exactly what I was after.

I had a reread of the rules after Firesprocket's post, and I think I have a better appreciation of how  Narc and C3 work now, so it's off to the tabletop now when I have the chance for some play testing with the builds mentioned. I'm actually planning on adding another company to each of my house forces, so this may dictate which minis I end up with for DC.

My group is all pretty new to the game, so I have no more experienced players to fall back on - so I really appreciate the depth of knowledge in this forum.

[Sartris]

In AS, the pricing on C3 is 1/2 the price to upgrade the unit's pilot from 4 to 3.  That'd be doable as a house rule in CBT, and might make it viable for competitive play balanced by BV.

I'd rather have an on/off baked-in cost like this for c3 than the current system. the 5% BV cost for company-sized networks is prohibitive, especially if not playing with ECCM rules.

[Iceweb]

I have always gotten good use out of the base Naginata as a lance commander but I have always felt that the canon C3 dual masters and many of the existing C3 slave mechs are not really exploiting the system as well as they could. 

I will say that I am partial to the Komodo and in a environment where something that light can survive the version with the C3 slave makes a good spotter as it needs to get in close to use it's laser battery. 

As for weapons that I like with C3 any Gauss is good due to the long ranges, the ER PPC is nice too, but the ER large laser is a little lackluster for the range/damage/heat. 
LRMs are fun but if you can get the Extended range LRM system can be brutal with C3. 
Combining an iATM system with C3 is just min/maxing and should be left to the society. 

On missiles the MRM can be interesting with C3 due to it's funny range bands. 
Use a brawler type but stay at range and shoot accurately. 
Just remember the +1 hit penalty for using dumb rockets. 

Lastly since you want at least one mech at short range to feed telemetry to the lance, you can always rely on the good old hatchet. 
Canon there is a Berserker variant that I think has a slave, TSM, and some nice hot guns. 
I do find keeping the heat in the butter zone troublesome due to the weapons on the design, but a 40 point axe hit can scare the pants off some people. 

Overall a fun system, but the double dipping on how the BV is calculated makes it hard to use in games "Balanced" that way. 
I feel that if you have to spend tonnes and crits for the system, it should have a static BV like every other system.