Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!

[sadlerbw]

Wait...so if I understand that article Wrangler linked correctly, the navy is paying each of the five bidders $15 million just to continue their design work for two years? WARNING!!! RULE 4 VERBAL EXPLOSION DETECTED!!!...old preist and a young priest...SECONDARY VERBAL EXPLOSIONS DETECTED!!!...and Lockheed is a partner on HOW MANY of those?...RULE 4 FILTER EXCEEDING TOLERANCES!!! SHUTTING DOWN COMM CHANNEL!!! <end of line>

[Daryk]

Oh look... the legislative branch got its way again...  It's almost like the system is designed to make that happen...  ::)

[Nightlord01]

Unfortunately U.S.S. Cole showed what can happen when you don't properly secure the area around a ship, underway or not.  Granted there were all sorts of (pre-9/11) rules of engagement in what was ostensibly a friendly port, but the idea of having boats in the water and a security perimeter of some sort enforced when you're at least stopped has merit.  And these days...well, ducking rule 4 covers a multitude of sins so I'll do that instead.

Pre 9/11 had nothing to do with it, the small craft achieved total tactical surprise through superior intelligence and action. The AAR for USS Cole was very interesting, highlighting the security deficiencies of the USN as a whole at the time. This is, unfortunately, very common, and is countered by revising your procedures once you acknowledge the possibility.

Sometimes geography doesn't give you a choice.  The only ways to avoid a swarm depend on decisions not made at the level of ship captain, or even Fleet commander.  If you're not allowed to strike the port facilities where the swarm is based pre-emptively and have to transit the associated littoral anyway, you're going to face said swarm.

That's exactly my point, there aren't very many water ways where that can happen, and they are mostly pretty easily avoidable, at the very least, if you must transit through, you are on your guard. There are perfectly acceptable gunnery mechanisms that don't rely on missiles that cost exponentially more than the vessels they are made to destroy. Ranging from 25mm up to 5 in, these gunnery systems use fused rounds which are specialised for use in this scenario. The only warship I'm aware of that has been lost to swarm attack is a Sri Lankan patrol craft, I've never heard of a large ship coming under direct attack, although the IRGCN did "attack" a mock carrier in this manner.

They work just fine on the Horn of Africa out on the open ocean too, using camouflaged motherships from which such a swarm can "stage".
The swarms tend to be smaller in that case though, mostly for logistics.

Those swarms are pirates and hijackers, they don't try to poke warships. We had a swarm come after us off the Horn of Africa, turned on our upper deck lights to show the gun and launcher, they couldn't hightail it fast enough. We've had to deal with these things for more than 50 years in the SEA region. This is commercial activity and warships, by and large, are immune to it, even if the swarm commits to the boarding action, it's pretty easy to turn out to sea, ring on all ahead full and get the hell out of there, few vessels can keep up with a warship doing max chickens.

I would have thought that the thing the Korean frigate may give up to the USN equivalent may be range

The South Koreans aren't looking at deploying thousands of miles from home in the way the USN (and at least previously the RN) do.

Sure they do! The ROKN deploy all over the world, from the US to the MEAO. The ROKN doesn't have task groups sailing left right and centre like the USN does, but they certainly travel very long distances.

[Wrangler]

Last "modern" US Frigate in service was the USS Simpson FFG-56.  She was also something special where historical foot notes go.  She was one of two ships in modern times to sink another Warship on April 8th, 1988.


She was retired in 2015, be last her class taken out commission. (D'oh!)  [drool]

Only Frigate left in US Commission and only on still active that sunk a enemy warship...is the USS Constitution.  I don't think SHE going be escorting anyone.  :))

[Wrangler]

More recent news, i just read a report that noted the UK Royal Navy has sold their Helicopter Carrier, HMS Ocean to Brazil.  From what I read it was done for cost savings, that HMS Queen Elizabeth would take on the role.

I guess Brazil isn't going try make their old carrier functional or replace it with a fixed wing enabled ship.

I don't think Ocean could be modified to launch A-4 Skyhawks they used launch from older ship.

[Kidd]

More recent news, i just read a report that noted the UK Royal Navy has sold their Helicopter Carrier, HMS Ocean to Brazil.  From what I read it was done for cost savings, that HMS Queen Elizabeth would take on the role.

I guess Brazil isn't going try make their old carrier functional or replace it with a fixed wing enabled ship.

I don't think Ocean could be modified to launch A-4 Skyhawks they used launch from older ship.

so the rumour IS true.

I don't think its a good buy for the Brazilian Navy at all. Ocean is pretty knackered.

[JadeHellbringer]

I can see the utility of a ship like this- Brazil has a whole lot of coast to cover after all. It's a much better idea than a fixed-wing flat-top for sure- I was stunned when they bought the current rust-bucket from the French. But... yeah, Ocean is pretty ancient, and I'd be curious to know just how capable she is at this point- on paper it's a great move, but how much more can those old engines take? How many cracks are showing up for the pumps to deal with, etc.?

It might be cheaper in the short-term to do this compared to building something new, but it's a move that long term will bite them, I suspect- either she'll be a Kuznetsov-style drydock-queen, or have to be retired after only a few years, and they'll be right back where they started.

[DoctorMonkey]

HMS Ocean seems to have commercial maritime diesel engines and was generally built to commercial rather than military standards which may make maintenance easier for Brazil, especially if their main uses are going to be relatively easy on the structure.

[Wrangler]

The article does go on to say soon to be exHMS Ocean will NOT be a dock-queen.

I don't know, but i think DoctorMonkey has a point about her being built to commercial standards with off-the shelf technology may help.  She lot younger than her older Invincible-Class Aircraft Carrier cousins.

I honestly don't what her material state is, but it properly going be better shape than the French carrier or even worse, the Russian Kiev carrier that got sold to India.  Billions to fix clunky used aviation missile cruiser turn full on aircraft carrier.

[DoctorMonkey]

She might be better thought of as a merchant ship with some military hardware tacked on the top
She is/will be great for littoral operations whether policing, disaster relief or whatever else the Brazilians might want to use her for... just don't let people shoot at her!

[sadlerbw]

Well, at least Ocean is the devil you know. The thing with building a new ship is, it's real easy to scope-creep your way into spending way more than you intended, and even when it's done you don't really know what problems you are going to have with it...and new ships are definitely going to have problems. I believe it was just a couple pages back where the Germans actually sent their newest ship back to the builder as it failed their sea trials! An old ship? Well, you probably have a much more clear idea of what issues it has and what they will cost you. Plus, while you will probably have to put your won radars and weapons on it, you would be paying for all that on a newly built ship anyway. Honestly, as long as the structure and hull have some life left in them, it should work for them. In my opinion at least.

[Kidd]

The Brazilian Navy's carrier program is one long and tragic joke.



Minas Gerais, the former Colossus-class HMS Vengeance was bought in 1956 and commissioned in 1960, but only operated helicopters and a couple of S-2 Trackers for most of her life. She installed a (second-hand) catapult in 1996, but did not operate any combat aircraft until January 2001, only to be decommissioned in October…!



Sao Paulo, ex-Foch, has been an endless maintenance nightmare since entering service in 2001, ceasing flight operations after a catapult explosion in 2004 and has practically never sailed operationally ever since. It only makes a few short cruises every now and then. Brazil officially gave up on Sao Paulo in February 2017.

On the air wing side, Brazil purchased 23 Skyhawks (20 single-seat, 3 double-seat) from Kuwait in 1998. They can only carry bombs, guns and the AIM-9 Sidewinder. They first trapped on board Minas Gerais in January 2001.

Subsequently, Brazil planned to upgrade 12 of the Skyhawks (9 single, 3 double) with Israeli electronics and weapons but completed only 2 such Skyhawks in 2015, with 2 more scheduled to be completed in 2017. Four C-1 Traders were to have been refurbished into Turbo Traders for COD, AAR and AEW work, but were never completed or delivered due to legal issues.

In summary, from 1960 to 2017, Brazil’s 2 carriers and small fleet of fixed-wing naval aircraft have only really operated concurrently from 2001 to 2004, a grand total of 3 years.

The article does go on to say soon to be exHMS Ocean will NOT be a dock-queen.

I don't know, but i think DoctorMonkey has a point about her being built to commercial standards with off-the shelf technology may help.  She lot younger than her older Invincible-Class Aircraft Carrier cousins.

Erm, quite the opposite.

Warships are put under different stresses from merchant marine ships. HMS Ocean was a stop-gap purchase until the QEs came online, and as such was built to lower-than-military-normal standards - often called "commercial standards" for short - with a very strict budget and shelf-life. There were numerous complaints about her accommodation - particularly the sewage treatment system - which were only rectified in her 2014 refit to make her suitable to serve as the Royal Navy's flagship. I am not an expert but it those who are say that her bulkheads, machinery etc. are designed to reliably last up to about now, and that's that.

No, I don't think its a very good choice by the Brazilian Navy at all.

[marauder648]

The bridge and conning tower of the MN Richelieu.

[marauder648]

The MN Strassbourg, I would assume this is after the war, she's missing her bow and is probably being broken up and salvaged at her final resting place in Toloun.

[marauder648]

Some fascinating pictures of the fire control computer aboard the USS Texas







Sauce - https://imgur.com/gallery/OjUcG

[Wrangler]

Wow, what italian spaghetti mess! That must not been fun to try repair if something went wrong.

[Sabelkatten]

As long as it's well labeled, you've got all the schematics, and previous repairs were done by competent people it's shouldn't be bad.

Today you generally don't repair electronics, it's just a question of pulling out the bad part and inserting the new. If you actually have to go in and fix stuff on a PCB, that is when you'll get a headache! :D

[JadeHellbringer]

Many of the systems are redundant actually- while I'm not sure about Texas specifically, the account of the system aboard the later Washington was that there were two separate backups for almost any part of the fire control computer. Despite the age difference, Texas' computer was installed during her mid-life refit, and Washington was only built a few years after, so they're likely pretty similar in basic setup. Something goes wrong, get to work patching it up while the backups take over.

Of course, when the IT department reports that the problem is a 15-inch shell having passed through the compartment and wiped the whole damned thing out, it probably doesn't matter how redundant any of it is...  ;D

[DoctorMonkey]

Many of the systems are redundant actually- while I'm not sure about Texas specifically, the account of the system aboard the later Washington was that there were two separate backups for almost any part of the fire control computer. Despite the age difference, Texas' computer was installed during her mid-life refit, and Washington was only built a few years after, so they're likely pretty similar in basic setup. Something goes wrong, get to work patching it up while the backups take over.

Of course, when the IT department reports that the problem is a 15-inch shell having passed through the compartment and wiped the whole damned thing out, it probably doesn't matter how redundant any of it is...  ;D

[Weirdo]

The bridge and conning tower of the MN Richelieu.

The MN Strassbourg, I would assume this is after the war, she's missing her bow and is probably being broken up and salvaged at her final resting place in Toloun.

Like many navies around the world, the French do not actually use any form of prefix before their warship names, it's simply Richelieu and Strassbourg. If you see a prefix, it's likely added by an outside group like the US Navy or NATO so the paperwork in question fits their sensibilities.

It always irks me whenever I see those...

[JadeHellbringer]

I think that might have been Dunkerque, actually- her bow was removed during her partial-scrapping during the war, but I've never seen anything saying her sister had hers removed. Which isn't to say it's WRONG, just that based on what little I know this may be mistaken identity.

[God and Davion]

The Strassbourg/Dunkerke in the picture has her bow. The mooring quay may lead to confussion,  but the bow is there, up to the anchors, seen as a black area next to the rock in the right side. Those were magnificient ships.

[ColBosch]

As long as it's well labeled, you've got all the schematics, and previous repairs were done by competent people it's shouldn't be bad.

Today you generally don't repair electronics, it's just a question of pulling out the bad part and inserting the new. If you actually have to go in and fix stuff on a PCB, that is when you'll get a headache! :D

Actually replacing components on a PCB isn't too bad, with practice. The real fun is diagnosing which of those components went bad.

[Daryk]

Marauder, thanks for sharing wiring harnesses done right! O0

[truetanker]

How to wire a Mech, an Astech mightmare!

TT

[Wrangler]

Need more photos....USS Scott (Spruance Class Destroyer) cruising with a flotilla from the Spanish Armada in 1 February 1992.  It's interesting gauging the size difference of the ships of the Armada, which are almost all American designs or variants as such.  I was surprised how the aircraft carrier Principe de Asturias was not as big i thought it be next to the Scott.

[I am Belch II]

That is a nice photo. The Austrius was only like 600 feet long, and the Spruance was 560 feet.

[nerd]

Need more photos....USS Scott (Spruance Class Destroyer) cruising with a flotilla from the Spanish Armada in 1 February 1992.  It's interesting gauging the size difference of the ships of the Armada, which are almost all American designs or variants as such.  I was surprised how the aircraft carrier Principe de Asturias was not as big i thought it be next to the Scott.

Eh, no, she wasn't a Spruance-class, she was a Kidd-class. The MK 26 GMLS fore and aft are dead give-aways. The Kidd was a variant of the Spru-can that added AAW to the ASW function of the original. Those ships, with New Threat Update, were considered to be the near-equals of the first flight Ticonderoga-class cruisers (which were originally DDG's).

And yes, they were/are a very large ship for a destroyer classification. At over 9,000 tons full load displacement, the design is larger than the Atlanta class CLAA from World War II.

The Principe de Asturias design is the second smallest post World War II aircraft carrier (smaller than LPH designs). Only the Thai navy operates a smaller carrier, and she's a reduced Principe de Asturias

[Feenix74]

Some fascinating pictures of the fire control computer aboard the USS Texas



Sauce - https://imgur.com/gallery/OjUcG

Mmmm . . . asbestos cable wrapping . . . mmmm . . . asbestos pipe lagging . . . mmmm

[Feenix74]

Eh, no, she wasn't a Spruance-class, she was a Kidd-class. The MK 26 GMLS fore and aft are dead give-aways. The Kidd was a variant of the Spru-can that added AAW to the ASW function of the original. Those ships, with New Threat Update, were considered to be the near-equals of the first flight Ticonderoga-class cruisers (which were originally DDG's).

If my memory serves me correctly, the Kidd's were built for the Shah of Iran but not delivered due to some Rule 4 events . . .