Author Topic: Clan grand melee tips  (Read 9470 times)

Sharkapult

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #30 on: 19 August 2017, 13:47:17 »
If you are using the Firemoth D, a bit of advice from an online friend, the MASC should only be used when your heat drops your speed after a turn or two of alpha ing. Don't ever rush in and activate your MASC the turn of your alpha. Use the MASC as your GTFO button.

Vonshroom

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #31 on: 20 August 2017, 01:00:10 »

Is Black Python 3 ok? It's the only one who fits the allowed bv.

Wow, my bad on this one. I see Natasha K was thinking along the same lines, maybe a little bit of the Mandela Effect? Seriously though, the Black Python in its standard configuration is my go to for clan mechs. All the other variants of the mech really give something up over the original. While the 3 is usable, it almost fills another role, and plays very differently from the standard model. I would honestly advise against it. Too hard to hit, too much heat for the HLLasers to do much good. In a protracted fight, its not a good proposition. Thats a bummer about the BV... would be a perfect unit.

So I'd personally run the Vapor Eagle. Natasha and Iron Mongoose posted good replies on a little bit of what to expect in using one. One thing to really watch for is backshooters. You have thin rear armor with this mech so you have to really keep track of who can move where how fast.

With that said there are some other fun units out there.

I've seen some suggest the Firemoth. I'd steer clear here, unless your names Alethea Kabrinksi, and well.... yeah. Too little armor for a protracted engagement. Sure "speed is armor" but I guarantee you someone you are going to be playing already thought up the whole Gee Whiz! Targeting computers and pulse lasers make for a nasty combo! deal. So when it boils down to it, speed can act as armor, but it really isn't armor. You're just giving up too much with a single mech choice.

If you like the speedy backstab idea though, check out these two...

Ice Ferret Prime / D

Quick, good armor, decent weapons, D comes with 4 Medium Pulse lasers, 8/12 movement is as fast as you need to go realistically. You will likely get ignored as well, allowing you to work in and deal some damage. Always keep mods high by running as much as possible.

Viper A

A Suite of Medium lasers backed by an SRM give you lots of good close range weaponry. Just as fast as the Ice Ferret, and fun too. Similar play style. Always run to push mods up. Jump jets let you get in and out of positions quick if you win initiative.

And for a slightly different play-style..


Summoner A

My favorite version of the Summoner, I find it lends itself fairly well to protracted engagements. I generally have had good luck with them. You have a fairly straightforward weapons suite of a Gauss, Large Pulse, and SRM 6. I know some of you reading this are probably shaking their heads at my liking of the Summoner A, and opening statements. Most see this as lackluster due to the fact that it carries only a single ton of Gauss Ammo, and two tons of SRM ammo for the 6 Shooter. While this might be a sin, sometimes a little sin is good. The Summoner A is literally about as oversinked as it can get. It's never going to overheat. It can alpha, jump, get hit by infernos, flamers, whatever. Its cool running. Use infernos in the second ton of SRM ammo. I guarantee you that in a Grand Melee, you will be able to put those to deadly effect.

Most clan mechs run hot, you aren't going to risk the threat of cooking off your infernos really at all, and since your opponents will likely be hot, smacking them with up to 12 additional heat per turn can be crippling. A ton of Standard SRM's work for critseekers. Fire your Gauss extremely sparingly. With only a ton of ammo you will run out. Only shoot when the shot is good and the modifier is low.

With this mech, it is best to pick around the edges of a fight. Pick on units someone else has already hit. Try to stay mobile and in cover, but come out and smack something when it needs it.
« Last Edit: 20 August 2017, 01:12:13 by Vonshroom »
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #32 on: 20 August 2017, 09:45:48 »
I don't have the books handy, but if the BV works (and it SHOULD), the Phantom-C could be intriguing. Dash up behind someone, deliver a Pink Floyd laser light show into their rear armor, run away giggling like a madman, repeat as needed.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #33 on: 20 August 2017, 11:22:21 »
The problem with a short-range fighter like the Phantom C is that standard Melee rules require you to always move into weapon range every round.  For something that's got so little range, that can force you into some bad locations or require moves that don't allow you to build up a high enough TMM to stay alive.
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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #34 on: 20 August 2017, 21:20:11 »
Where?  I have never seen any rules for one except only one can leave.  Even in strict dueling, you do not have to constantly stay in your weapons range- or that of the opponent.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #35 on: 20 August 2017, 22:34:10 »
The last time I was at a Grand Melee, they clarified that this line

Quote
Each player MUST fire every turn on a target to which he has a valid LOS, under the following two conditions:

    A player does not have to fire any weapons that use ammo.
    A player does not have to overheat his OmniMech when firing. However, he must come as close as possible—including the heat generated during the Movement Phase—to the maximum heat dissipation capabilities of his OmniMech.

required you to attempt to get within weapons' range of an opponent every round.  If all opponents then moved outside of your weapon range or broke LOS, that was fine because it was out of your control, but there wasn't any "I'm going to sit back here 40 hexes from the big furball on the far side of the map and not do anything until I can rush in with my Dasher and finish off the last one" allowed.  Fast mechs with ER Large Lasers were very effective (and that was how I won the melee; we were limited to light mechs and I took a Hankyu H and sniped).
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wantec

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #36 on: 21 August 2017, 07:14:10 »
Unless there's another sentence or two missing, what you quoted just says LOS "line of sight", not "you must be in weapons range AND have line of sight".


As for 'Mechs, I love the Phantom C idea, or at least I would if you could use the remaining BV to upgrade your pilot, that thing's only 1590 BV2. If you're limited to staying within weapons range and LOS than the Grendel Prime or D would work well, fast jumping 'Mechs with either an ERLL or ERPPC and some backup weapons. If you want something bigger, with more armor and a bigger gun, there's the Stormcrow B or its big brother the Gargoyle C. Both have a UAC/20 and 6x ERML. The Gargoyle just has 2 more tons of armor and 6 more double heat sinks.

The Rifleman IIC has a pair of LPLs...in each arm, making it a lot easier to hit things at long range. The Linebacker D is 6/9 speed with a pair of ERMLs and 4 SSRM6s to crit everything in sight. If you really want a Timber Wolf, there's the C variant with twin LRM15s, twin ERLLs, a UAC/5, ERML, and AMS right at 2500 BV2. The Warhammer IIC 2 is an 80-ton beast with twin ERPPCs, twin LRM15s, and an SRM6 rack. If you want a Kingfisher for the zombie factor, I'd pick the D, a trio or ERLLs and a UAC/10.

And then there's always Hellbie's favorite, the Bane. Quad machine guns back up 10 UAC/2s all protected in 19 tons of armor, almost the max a 100-tonner can carry.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #37 on: 21 August 2017, 08:10:35 »
And then there's always Hellbie's favorite, the Bane. Quad machine guns back up 10 UAC/2s all protected in 19 tons of armor, almost the max a 100-tonner can carry.

I can't help but notice that you're not on fire right now. Please see to that problem immediately.  ;D

(I have an unseen Bane on my shelf in green/gray swamp camo, and every time I glance at it I have a strong urge to just hurl it as hard as I can into the woods next to my house. It's instinctual at this point.)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #38 on: 21 August 2017, 10:45:44 »
Unless there's another sentence or two missing, what you quoted just says LOS "line of sight", not "you must be in weapons range AND have line of sight".

Please reread what I wrote: I said that it was clarified at the tournament that the quoted line meant that you did have to make an attempt to get into a position where you were in weapons range every round.
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wantec

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #39 on: 21 August 2017, 10:57:34 »
I can't help but notice that you're not on fire right now. Please see to that problem immediately.  ;D

(I have an unseen Bane on my shelf in green/gray swamp camo, and every time I glance at it I have a strong urge to just hurl it as hard as I can into the woods next to my house. It's instinctual at this point.)
I'm not on fire, but it sure feels like it. The AC in the office is not working on my floor. All the other floors seem to functioning fine.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #40 on: 21 August 2017, 12:16:27 »
I'm not on fire, but it sure feels like it. The AC in the office is not working on my floor. All the other floors seem to functioning fine.

Justice is served. ;)

Take note, folks- always install double-strength heat sinks on your freelancers lest they overheat and shut down.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

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Stallion12

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #41 on: 21 August 2017, 12:23:10 »
Thanks guys, I'll let you know what I decide and how it goes.

wantec

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #42 on: 21 August 2017, 13:06:36 »
Justice is served. ;)

Take note, folks- always install double-strength heat sinks on your freelancers lest they overheat and shut down.
Or make sure the office fridge and vending machine are well-stocked with coolant pods, gone through a few more of those than normal already.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #43 on: 21 August 2017, 14:03:45 »
Or make sure the office fridge and vending machine are well-stocked with coolant pods, gone through a few more of those than normal already.

"Gatorade. It is in you, quiaff?"
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #44 on: 21 August 2017, 19:24:18 »
Thanks guys, I'll let you know what I decide and how it goes.

Yeah, definitely let us know!  Pictures are good too.
Colt Ward
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Stallion12

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #45 on: 23 August 2017, 12:38:10 »
The terrain is going to have a lot of woods, rivers as ND hills, does that change as my of the suggestions?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #46 on: 23 August 2017, 12:49:43 »
Yes, you definitely want to have a jumper.  Remember, you can't enter a water hex using running MP, so crossing a 1-hex river takes 5 MP (entering the hex +1 for water and +1 for elevation change, then entering the next hex with +1 for another elevation change).  Non-jumping mechs will have their maneuverability cut dramatically on a map like this.
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Vonshroom

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #47 on: 23 August 2017, 14:48:28 »
The terrain is going to have a lot of woods, rivers as ND hills, does that change as my of the suggestions?

Well for some, I would still point you towards the mechs I suggested, Vapor Eagle, Viper, Summoner. I would select them in that order for me.

Yes, you definitely want to have a jumper.  Remember, you can't enter a water hex using running MP, so crossing a 1-hex river takes 5 MP (entering the hex +1 for water and +1 for elevation change, then entering the next hex with +1 for another elevation change).  Non-jumping mechs will have their maneuverability cut dramatically on a map like this.

Basically what Ogre said. That is solid advice. You need jump jets.
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Vonshroom

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #48 on: 23 August 2017, 14:52:59 »
The terrain is going to have a lot of woods, rivers as ND hills, does that change as my of the suggestions?

Also look at your mechs heat sinks, if it runs hot, probably a bad bet. If you are playing with forest fires you can easily find yourself overheated. Thats where a unit like the Summoner A shines.
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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #49 on: 23 August 2017, 15:47:40 »
Stooping Hawk A: 5/8/5 movement, twin ER PPCs, 17 double heat sinks. It´s reasonably fast, jump capable, barely overheats even when firing and jumping, survivable due to a standard engine, and with its ER PPCs it packs one hell of a punch at long range.
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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #50 on: 23 August 2017, 18:32:06 »
The C is still the better Stooping Hawk, it has a TC and the ERLL are in the CT and Head which means you will not lose your main guns.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #51 on: 23 August 2017, 21:53:53 »
The terrain is going to have a lot of woods, rivers as ND hills, does that change as my of the suggestions?

You need jumpers to get over woods and rivers while still inflicting high movement modifiers on your opponents.  Even the fastest runners will be at a disadvantage.

And you need some weapons with negative targeting modifiers (pulse lasers, TCs, LB-X cluster) to offset your jumping movement modifier and woods terrain targeting modifiers.  With 3 gunnery all around, players will rarely connect otherwise.  Some earlier strategies relying on potshots at extreme range with unmodified ER large lasers don't work well in this terrain.

And again, these considerations come on top of the usual Grand Melee dictums about mobility (more is better) and survivability (high armor, low ammo, SFE if possible).

Limiting to jumpers removes some options from my earlier list.  Here's how I'd rank the remaining ones and a few new ones:

Vapor Eagle, BV2=2368, Move=6/9/6, XLE+ammo, PLL & PMLx3 + TC

Timber Wolf S, BV2=2462, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, PLL & PMLx2

Guillotine IIC, BV2=2377, Move=4/6/4, SFE+ammo, PLLx2

Rifleman IIC, BV2=2307, Move=3/5/3, SFE+no ammo, PLLx4

Stooping Hawk C, BV2=2435, Move=5/8/5, SFE+centerline+no ammo, ERLLx2 & ERMLx2 + TC

Summoner A, BV2=2145, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, PLL

Nova S, BV2=2061, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, PMLx6

Summoner Prime, BV2=2298, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, LB-X

Coyotl A, BV2=1753, Move=7/11/7, XLE+ammo, PLL & PSL

Viper Prime, BV2=1450, Move=8/12/8, XLE+ammo, PMLx2

Pouncer D, BV2=2246, Move=6/9/6, XLE+ammo, ERMLx6+TC

Mongrel C, BV2=1465, Move=7/11/7, XLE+ammo, LB 10-X

Kit Fox S, BV2=1342, Move=6/9/6, XLE+ammo, PLL & PML & PSL

IMO, the Vapor Eagle continues to be the best choice.  It's the only option that completely offsets its jumping modifiers with a targeting computer and pulse lasers (at both long- and mid-range).  Nothing else has that -3 combined targeting modifier.  Yes, it's munchy, but if you want to go far in the melee, it's the surest bet.  Just remember to dump the ammo before it becomes exposed.

If you don't want to be "that guy" with the munch machine, I'd run the T-Wolf S.  A little slower and less accurate, but the heavier armor helps make up for it.  Again, don't forget to dump the ammo before it becomes exposed.  But the massed SRM racks may come in handy if you step into a furball before then.

Hope this helps.

[Edits:  Moved the Nova S and Stooping Hawk C up above the Summoners.  Added Guillotine IIC]
« Last Edit: 24 August 2017, 18:31:37 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Vonshroom

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #52 on: 24 August 2017, 00:28:16 »
You need jumpers to get over woods and rivers while still inflicting high movement modifiers on your opponents.  Even the fastest runners will be at a disadvantage.

And you need some weapons with negative targeting modifiers (pulse lasers, TCs, LB-X cluster) to offset your jumping movement modifier and woods terrain targeting modifiers.  With 4 gunnery all around, players will rarely connect otherwise.  Some earlier strategies relying on potshots at extreme range with unmodified ER large lasers don't work well in this terrain.

And again, these considerations come on top of the usual Grand Melee dictums about mobility (more is better) and survivability (high armor, low ammo, SFE if possible).

Limiting to jumpers removes some options from my earlier list.  Here's how I'd rank the remaining ones and a few new ones:

Vapor Eagle, BV2=2368, Move=6/9/6, XLE+ammo, PLL & PMLx3 + TC

Timber Wolf S, BV2=2462, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, PLL & PMLx2

Summoner A, BV2=2145, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, PLL

Stooping Hawk C, BV2=2435, Move=5/8/5, SFE+centerline+no ammo, ERLLx2 & ERMLx2 + TC

Summoner Prime, BV2=2298, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, LB-X

Nova S, BV2=2061, Move=5/8/5, XLE+ammo, PMLx6

Coyotl A, BV2=1753, Move=7/11/7, XLE+ammo, PLL & PSL

Viper Prime, BV2=1450, Move=8/12/8, XLE+ammo, PMLx2

Pouncer D, BV2=2246, Move=6/9/6, XLE+ammo, ERMLx6+TC

Mongrel C, BV2=1465, Move=7/11/7, XLE+ammo, LB 10-X

Kit Fox S, BV2=1342, Move=6/9/6, XLE+ammo, PLL & PML & PSL

IMO, the Vapor Eagle continues to be the best choice.  It's the only option that completely offsets its jumping modifiers with a targeting computer and pulse lasers (at both long- and mid-range).  Nothing else has that -3 combined targeting modifier.  Yes, it's munchy, but if you want to go far in the melee, it's the surest bet.  Just remember to dump the ammo before it becomes exposed.

If you don't want to be "that guy" with the munch machine, I'd run the T-Wolf S.  A little slower and less accurate, but the heavier armor helps make up for it.  Again, don't forget to dump the ammo before it becomes exposed.  But the massed SRM racks may come in handy if you step into a furball before then.

Hope this helps.

Natasha pretty well nailed it. I would also advise a unit that has a decent amount of weapons. This way even if a couple of weapons get critted you don't completely lose effectiveness.

Nova is always a fun mech to play as well. I was worried it would be outside your BV, originally, but only BV 2 I guess...

Honestly another solid choice.
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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #53 on: 24 August 2017, 09:41:41 »
With the limitation of 4 gunnery skill, that makes speed viable, although TC and Pulse can still ruin your day if you don't take something with enough armor to survive a hit.  Anything like a Dasher is probably a bad idea, since even one ERPPC hit could effectively knock you out of play.  Assuming you run, opponent walks, and you can stay at long range (which may be impossible if enough other players try to keep the range open): base of 8 to hit at range, +2 or +3 for your movement, +1 for theirs, and -1 to -3 for Pulse and/or TC gives them shots at anywhere from 8 to 11 plus terrain modifiers.

Basically, anything with Pulse Lasers will be a real threat unless you can take a few solid hits.  If they're fast enough to get into shorter ranges, it's worse.  With intro tech, that would be 11+ to hit, plus terrain, so a light, fast design would be VERY viable.

A design with a long-range gun and some serious close-in weaponry might prove to be a good choice.  You can move and snipe from long range to meet the rules requirement, and be a poor target in return, yet nobody will dare close with you.

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #54 on: 24 August 2017, 10:01:47 »
Not sure where folks are getting the 4 gunnery stuff . . . the OP said he was allowed 3g/4p but was unable to spend left over BV to improve the skills.

And I just came up with another option . . . the Guillotine IIC . . . 2 LPL & a ERPPC, SFE, 4/6/4 . . . slower than I suggested, but mobile with the jumpjets and a SFE . . . problem is the big weapons are in the arms.  And you want to dump the ammo from the CT for the SRM6.  But at 2377 its a brutal option if you think the terrain will slow other non-jumpers down enough.
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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #55 on: 24 August 2017, 10:24:25 »
Dump... the SRM ammo...?



The Mech has powerful hole-punching weapons, but that SRM gives you the ability to exploit those holes with crit-seeking. Never mind that as a Clan Mech, it has CASE built in already, plus a standard engine- so if my ammo goes off, well, that sucks, whatever, my pilot has a hangover from it.

No way I'd ditch that ammo. Then again, I openly admit to being a gushing SRM-fanboy.
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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #56 on: 24 August 2017, 10:31:32 »
 . . . the ammo is in the CT?
Colt Ward
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Weirdo

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #57 on: 24 August 2017, 10:51:13 »
Dump it when you get thin, maybe.

Given how many other mechs are going to be stocked up on hole-punchers(imagine an entire melee of people that read this thread), having a crit-seeker like that will be an invaluable way to take advantage of other people's work in addition to your own.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #58 on: 24 August 2017, 11:49:06 »
. . . the ammo is in the CT?

Eh, thought it was a side torso. Either way, still wouldn't ditch it- the potential risk is outweighed by its usefulness.
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Kovax

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Re: Clan grand melee tips
« Reply #59 on: 24 August 2017, 12:14:34 »
Not sure where folks are getting the 4 gunnery stuff . . . the OP said he was allowed 3g/4p but was unable to spend left over BV to improve the skills.
My mistake.  With 3/4 pilots, it's even worse for relying on speed for a thinly armored 'Mech.  Not that speed isn't helpful, but you really can't depend on not getting hit, and hit repeatedly.  I don't think I'd take anything under a medium, and a decently fast Heavy would be my preference.  As said, I'd go for a variant with one long-range weapon and some powerful in-fighting capabilities, so other stuff keeps a respectful distance.  That means higher mutual THNs, and hopefully less shots at you than at closer and easier targets.

The guy with quad Large Pulses, dual PPCs, or Gauss Rifles is a threat to everyone at any range, and will get shot at; the guy with paper thin armor is an easy kill, and will get shot at the first easy opportunity.  The guy way over there who can't do a whole lot to me as long as I'm way over here isn't a priority target, and I'll likely shoot at something else, and simply not go over there for a while.