What does it take to Kill mobile structures?

[grimlock1]

I know TacOps spells out the rules on page 172.  You have to destroy an "interior row."  That's a bit fuzzier for the Wyrm than the Rattler...

But back on topic.  Who has had a Rattler, Wyrm or other combat mobile structure on the table?  Who has killed one of the things, and how did you do it?

[Frabby]

No actual gametable experience here, but I reckon ArtilleryMechs (with ample ammunition) should be able to whack them from a safe distance. Tube artillery should be fine, though Arrow IV with TAG looks like a viable option.
The rules don't (to my knowledge) require the artillery unit to set up and thus allow it to fire on the move, which should allow the artillery unit to evade any counterbattery fire from the mobile structure. A 'Mech has superior mobility, but any artillery vehicle will do in a pinch.
Bring a spotter VTOL and a couple of J-27s.

[Mendrugo]

I read one account of success using fast APCs to deliver infantry to the underside of the Rattler, at which point they breached an access port and fought a boarding action against the crew, rather than trying to batter it to scrap from outside.

[snewsom2997]

On the table top, figure massed Artillery, Arrow Missiles, Cruise Missiles, Ortillery, or a nuke booby trapped drone mech. You are basically reducing a fortress at this point.

You might be able to get away with using a BV Balanced Massed swarm of bug mechs, 15k BV gets you a whole Battalion of Stingers, Wasps, or Locusts

In RPG Setting, it's just a giant building to gain access to and blow up. Don't think you are going to swarm a Rattler to death using TacOps rules, outside of sending multiple Ghost Bear Claws Clusters against the thing.

[Mendrugo]

I think in that case they were using the ship boarding action rules from BattleSpace, calculating Marine Points.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, i kinda wish they'd get around to converting mobile structures and other large craft to Alpha Strike.. given the sheer size of the battles you'd need to bring one down, Alpha's Strike's more large battle friendly ruleset would be more attractive for such things.

[grimlock1]

I read one account of success using fast APCs to deliver infantry to the underside of the Rattler, at which point they breached an access port and fought a boarding action against the crew, rather than trying to batter it to scrap from outside.

Given how armored and armed they are, I expect that similar methods would be the best way to disable the various gun emplacements associated with a Castle Brian?

[phoenixalpha]

Surely the answer is tactical nuclear weapons. If something like that is blocking your way - you get the hell out of dodge, call for nuclear backup and avoid its slow moving backside until it arrives and when the nuke comes to you, stand off, fire and forget.  >:D

[Col Toda]

Pepper one Side with artillery see if you can reduce weapons then storm building in maxums and 16 tons of Battle Armor each . Less time than using Artillery to reduce the whole thing and more legal than nuking it . With the upside if captured you can salvage it.

[JadeHellbringer]

Surely the answer is tactical nuclear weapons. If something like that is blocking your way - you get the hell out of dodge, call for nuclear backup and avoid its slow moving backside until it arrives and when the nuke comes to you, stand off, fire and forget.  >:D

A little messy of a solution though, if you have concerns about things like 'collateral damage' or 'using the land again for a few hundred years'.

[phoenixalpha]

jeez... mention nukes and everyone gets all *upset* :)

ok... orbital bombardment if that makes everyone feel warm & fuzzy :) dropship in orbit.. drops a couple of hundred kilos of metal out the door or somesuch. no issue with nasty radiation etc. there may be some collateral damage but hey... eggs and omelettes.

[Wrangler]

Well, if the anti-aircraft defenses can be breached or jammed (ECM ghosting), dedicated bombers could deliver some serious air drop fuel booms or regular bombs while artillery battalion of Tubed or Arrow type vehicle start spouting enough ammo to get by the AMS defenses.

I think the bombers maybe better.  Torrent and the House Steiner Handbook's AB-18C "Roubvogel" Aerobombers. Their cheap and they could wreck havoc until you get your bigger more expensive Aerospace units lined up to take care of business.,

Pocket Warship from orbit always option but not a great one since you need good spotter,  mobile structure isn't that fast, so "could" get thru before being shot down. 

[Weirdo]

Pocket Warship from orbit always option but not a great one since you need good spotter...

Absolutely incorrect. TAG can help, but a spotter is in no way required for any kind of orbital shot.

[Mendrugo]

One lower tech option would be to repurpose the 'Mech Traps (deep pits with concealed covers) from the McCarron's armored cavalry.  Dig out an area the size of a standard BBC gravel quarry (watching out for any Time Lords filming on location), cover it with sheet metal and a layer of sod, and then bait the mobile structure to drive that way.  Should be pretty spectacular once its center of gravity goes over the rim of the pit.

Just hope they don't start wondering about the new ski hill nearby.  ;)

[JadeHellbringer]

Absolutely incorrect. TAG can help, but a spotter is in no way required for any kind of orbital shot.

...didn't you miss a planet you were bombarding once?  ;D

[Weirdo]

Nah, just the table. :)

[SCC]

honestly, i kinda wish they'd get around to converting mobile structures and other large craft to Alpha Strike.. given the sheer size of the battles you'd need to bring one down, Alpha's Strike's more large battle friendly ruleset would be more attractive for such things.

Not really needed, on your standard 2 by 2 postage stamp of a game board I'd reckon that a Destrier has a good shot at defeating a Rattler

[Wrangler]

Not really needed, on your standard 2 by 2 postage stamp of a game board I'd reckon that a Destrier has a good shot at defeating a Rattler

I'd like to see that fight.  I would think you need more than on Destrier thou.

[glitterboy2098]

was more thinking that a Rattler or similar would be given at least a company's worth of guards, it not more. factoring in vehicles and infantry, you could be looking at a battalion on a battalion battle easily.

[idea weenie]

One lower tech option would be to repurpose the 'Mech Traps (deep pits with concealed covers) from the McCarron's armored cavalry.  Dig out an area the size of a standard BBC gravel quarry (watching out for any Time Lords filming on location), cover it with sheet metal and a layer of sod, and then bait the mobile structure to drive that way.  Should be pretty spectacular once its center of gravity goes over the rim of the pit.

Just hope they don't start wondering about the new ski hill nearby.  ;)

Wouldn't the lack of support on the leading treads give the crew some indication that the land in front is not safe?  It is only going 10 kph, so when the front treads are over the gravel quarry, the tread sensors should detect that they are at full extension, but there is zero weight on them.  You'd have to dig out where the first three hexes are part of the quarry, but that still leaves the final four hexes on solid land.

[Mendrugo]

Well, if you want to go full-on trap, you could reinforce the cover with a trestle underneath, wired with explosives.  Let the Rattler get substantially on the cover (reinforced to support it), then press the switch and detonate the trestle.  Cleanup on aisle six.

[Frabby]

How do you expect to lure a Rattler into your localized trap? You don't kill an aircraft carrier by dropping a sea mine somewhere in its general supposed path.

Given their crawling speed this is a strategic rather than a tactical concern. And I'd expect screening forces that will render any such traps worthless even if they end up on the Rattler's actual planned route.

[SCC]

I'd like to see that fight.  I would think you need more than on Destrier thou.

The Rattler has only 150 armor and SI per hex, meaning it's not THAT tough on a per hex basis and the Destrier's primary armament is twin LTC, so a hit to any hex will do 20 damage to that hex and 10 to each adjacent hex and once all the armor on a hex is gone it takes double damage, so 12 direct hits will destroy a hex. And when a hex is destroyed all adjacent hexes have their SI reduced by 50% of their starting value, meaning that targeting the central hex and destroying it is about half the job of killing one

[Mendrugo]

How do you expect to lure a Rattler into your localized trap? You don't kill an aircraft carrier by dropping a sea mine somewhere in its general supposed path.

Given their crawling speed this is a strategic rather than a tactical concern. And I'd expect screening forces that will render any such traps worthless even if they end up on the Rattler's actual planned route.

The comment about the ski hill was meant to suggest the concept was generally impractical, overall.  Especially since the Rattler is a defensive installation, not a cross-country mobile oppression palace. 

[JadeHellbringer]

The comment about the ski hill was meant to suggest the concept was generally impractical, overall.  Especially since the Rattler is a defensive installation, not a cross-country mobile oppression palace.

Well, not with THAT attitude, it isn't!  ;)

[SCC]

Addendum to my above comment (And incidentally the answer to the OP's question): Because of the way the rule about destroyed adjunct hexes works, destroying any two adjunct hexes or any two hexes separated by no more then one intervening hex triggers a chain reaction that destroys the entire structure, mobile or not. Even using the CF per level rule doesn't help that much

[Daryk]

So... mobile structures shouldn't be built any larger than two hexes in size?

[grimlock1]

Addendum to my above comment (And incidentally the answer to the OP's question): Because of the way the rule about destroyed adjunct hexes works, destroying any two adjunct hexes or any two hexes separated by no more then one intervening hex triggers a chain reaction that destroys the entire structure, mobile or not. Even using the CF per level rule doesn't help that much

So when....
But that means....
Which would...

::headdesk::

And I read the exact same rule.

The Rattler has only 150 armor and SI per hex, meaning it's not THAT tough on a per hex basis and the Destrier's primary armament is twin LTC, so a hit to any hex will do 20 damage to that hex and 10 to each adjacent hex and once all the armor on a hex is gone it takes double damage, so 12 direct hits will destroy a hex. And when a hex is destroyed all adjacent hexes have their SI reduced by 50% of their starting value, meaning that targeting the central hex and destroying it is about half the job of killing one

The double damage thing?  Is that just an arty v buildings rule?

[SCC]

The double damage thing?  Is that just an arty v buildings rule?

No, an Area Effect weapon thing so it also applies to airburst mortar shells, bombs, and mine clearance missile off the top of my head.

And double checking the rule about damaging adjunct hexes when a hex is destroyed I got it wrong, it's half of current CF, but still pretty nasty.

[Mendrugo]

Canonically, another way to kill a Rattler is with a J. Edgar hover tank.  A commander named Roebenood, according to legend, destroyed a huge mobile weapons platform in one battle.  (TRO 3026)

[Wrangler]

hmmm...that would certainly be a backfill moment since we rules wise never had mobile structure when that fluff was written.

[Paul]

What does it take? Caring enough about them to bother. It's only hard if you lack artillery weapons. Failing that, you get yourself a unit that can push a solid 100-150 damage at range, and you shell away at the same hex until you begin to burrow inside. You'll take a few losses (that'll teach you to not bring artillery) but its death is inevitable.
This presumes a situation where you also brought enough to counteract the escort those things must have for them to not totally suck.

Or if they move predictably enough, dig a big trench and trap the thing. Then, I dunno. Flood it maybe. You never have to see the thing anyway. Starve the occupants out; do whatever you do to take out a static target.

The Wyrm has a purpose. The Destrier and Rattler are pointless and shouldn't exist. Still, they could make for a decent boss bottle if you want something wacky. JHB used a mini platform in a game once to good effect as an objective; definitely one of the better games he's run.

Paul

[I am Belch II]

A lot of firepower!

[Caedis Animus]

While artillery may work, it doesn't take into account that said mobile structure will likely have screening forces making sure that it isn't destroyed that easily. And if you brought artillery, you were likely going to deal with significant forces anyways, so the presence of a mobile structure just means you have a more mobile target.

Taking it out via combat engineering (Building trenches in front of it) likely won't work very well. Humankind developed tactics for going over trenches a very long time ago; In fact, over 100 years ago. It consisted of... Big metal boxes with tracks. What makes someone think that a big trench will stop an EVEN BIGGER metal box? Even then, that big of a trench would be a complete waste of man-hours. And if it's big enough to have something that's wider than 60 meters fall into it and get stuck, the crew will likely notice and avoid it. That's also assuming that the screening force didn't notice it minutes or hours in advance. Mines and whatnot are fair game, but those have the similar problem of assuming the enemy Commander is completely incompetent.

I understand that the factions of Battletech grab the idiot ball a lot, but even they aren't stupid enough to get a 90-meter-wide machine stuck in a 30-meter-across hole, or drive a gigantic, super-noticable landcrawler into the middle of a freaking warzone. Especially considering these platforms are typically not mobile enough and more than expensive enough to only be deployed on bases as a defensive measure, whether at a major FoB or at the central base on a world; Acting as self-contained mobile artillery pieces, subcapital defenses, or more standard roles. You will almost never be facing just one, or one without other units acting in defense, in any role.

Long story short; If the enemy commander was so stupid as to bring the damn thing to the front lines without support  unless the front lines are at the doorstep, they must be a flunky from Warhammer 40K. Because that sort of idiocy, despite factions making stupid decisions all the time, is only present with Author Fiat, or by making the world so stupidly grimdark that hundreds of thousands of tons of resources are getting wasted because 'LUL DRIVE THE LANDCRAWLER FORWARD, I WANNA WHACK EM WITH MY SWORD'.

As for my suggestion to kill one, Artillery Spam, if at all possible.

[RunandFindOut]

A little messy of a solution though, if you have concerns about things like 'collateral damage' or 'using the land again for a few hundred years'.

Nukes aren't that bad, that's accidentally blew up the fission waste storage facility, not lit off a nuclear bomb.  I would point out that both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rebuilt and are thriving cities it hasn't been centuries there, and the only harmful long-term result of that is an elevated cancer rate you only notice doing statistical analysis on population data.  And those were with fission bombs quite a bit dirtier than the pure fusion weapons BT uses. 

[Col Toda]

The Combination of LRM launched minefields in front of its path . Anything the mobile structure has will be too close to clear the field tying down it's outriding units to ckear them . That should slow it down enough for Artillery to work very well . Minefields are AE damage so double damage to unarmored buildings . Other than a mobile dropship landing platforms the true efficacy vs resources for mobile buildings for any combat role is a question . Mobile mining or drilling resource gathering and processing units . As such there is a huge incentive to capture intact for invaders and a moving target for an objective raid in which up to date intelligence is hard to get and when a raid jump signature shows up it can pull up stakes and move to a more defensible or hidden location . As a combat unit not sure how good you can get . Look at the Lysander in the Vehicle Annex TRO that is a nice mobile Aerospace Fighter base . Where can you show me a mobile structure that is remotely worthwhile building and why .

[RunandFindOut]

The only real combat role I have ever seen as practical for mobile structures has been as anti-orbital platforms.  Mobile sub-cap weapon platforms that can redeploy to cover gaps in defenses or deny intelligence about their position. 

[Daryk]

The only real combat role I have ever seen as practical for mobile structures has been as anti-orbital platforms.  Mobile sub-cap weapon platforms that can redeploy to cover gaps in defenses or deny intelligence about their position.

I think this hits the nail on the head.  Everything else can be made mobile in a much smaller package. [/thread drift]

[grimlock1]

I suppose there's no value in pointing out that the opening post asked  "Who has killed one of the things, and how did you do it?"

I as kinda hoping to avoid a long, theoretical discussion.
Sorry for digging a pothole in the road.

[Col Toda]

I still think the LRM launched mine fields and Artillery is the most expedient means of reducing one and the Sub Cap platform did answer my question as the likelihood of me ever encountering them at all . Short of a Nuke which is a legal headache is the most expedient way of dealing with such . Since both are AE damage .

[Terminax]

Yes, I've killed mobile structures and all it's taken is regular old direct attacks. No artillery, no mines, no aerospace and no fancy tricks.

[Punishermark]

https://www.facebook.com/Clevelandbattletechleague/posts/1117771045021472

[Wrangler]

Wow, that's pretty cool scratch build!

[Punishermark]

Turret spins too!