What kind of SpecOps missons require "brute force over finesse"?

[rogueranger1993]

To be precise, I'm trying to understand this in regards to the Dark Shadows, who are a special forces unit in the covert operations branch of SAFE. What I have on them is a snippet from Handbook: House Marik, as detailed below;

"Intended for matters that require force rather than finesse, the Dark Shadows are SAFE’s independent BattleMech troops, the only such governmental unit outside the FWLM (from which it draws its soldiers). The Shadows’ operations and details are hidden from public view, but their existence is an open secret, albeit one colored by myth and misdirection."

And that's it. So, what kind of missions would these guys perform? The only thing I can think of at the moment is risky false-flag ops and perhaps deep raids, but what else might they do?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

To be precise, I'm trying to understand this in regards to the Dark Shadows, who are a special forces unit in the covert operations branch of SAFE. What I have on them is a snippet from Handbook: House Marik, as detailed below;

"Intended for matters that require force rather than finesse, the Dark Shadows are SAFE’s independent BattleMech troops, the only such governmental unit outside the FWLM (from which it draws its soldiers). The Shadows’ operations and details are hidden from public view, but their existence is an open secret, albeit one colored by myth and misdirection."

And that's it. So, what kind of missions would these guys perform? The only thing I can think of at the moment is risky false-flag ops and perhaps deep raids, but what else might they do?

The ISF had (has?) a similar unit that got a brief mention in the NAIS 4th SW atlas.  Check out the battle of Crossing which served as the climax of the private war between Kurita and the Dragoons. Dropping behind enemy lines right onto their HQ to sow panic and confusion into the mercenaries? Check.  Into terrain so rugged you'll lose half your mechs just pulling the maneuver off? Check!

Besides the "we need troops so loyal they'll accept the suicidal mission" trope:

Internal Security: Dealing with nobles and other actors that are getting too powerful and too uppity in their #resist campaign against House Marik/the FWL.  They'll often have their own private armies, which can necessitate an army to neutralize them.  FWLM units can be of questionable loyalty, especially provincial regiments.  If you want to go to the extreme of going after Duke Uppitybritches, you want troops that won't surprise you by having sympathies with him.

Cadre duty:  Training FWLM forces as OPFOR.  General proficiency training, or even posing as LCAF/CCAF forces in a wargame for FWLM forces.

Deep strike raids: The line FWLM forces handle most raids, sure.  But maybe right at this moment the best company of mechwarriors available for a long duration raid without outside support or backup is special forces.

Headhunter missions: Special forces rarely operate solo- they're usually a small force attached to the larger campaigning army that take on special missions.  A lance or company of Dark Shadows could very plausibly be on detatched duty with a line FWLM regiment, taking on specialty missions like seeking and destroying enemy C2 units.

Pirate hunting:  I imagine that a LOT of special forces work in the BTU involves pirate hunting.  Why?  Because pirates get by on intel.  They know where and when to raid, and when to GTFO before the hammer comes down.  not to get all real world on this thread, but very much the same dynamic with real world drug cartels in Mexico.  The police and army are often thoroughly penetrated by the cartels, so who usually gets the "go" order for an offensive strike/bust?  The Mexican Marines.  I envision the same dynamic in the BTU.. regular House army has such a hard time striking pirates because the pirates always get world from their contacts in the House Armies in time to get out of dodge.  OTOH if you send a small, tight force like special forces, your OPSEC is presumably better and more likely to actually catch the pirates by surprise.

Also: the BTU has always been ruled by the rule of cool moreso than practical real world military concerns.  There's lots of movies (and lately) tv shows focusing on commandos, lots of inspiration there to be scaled up to mech-size. 

[glitterboy2098]

major raids like the St. Nazaire Raid in WW2 come to mind. where you need the special forces expertise but you also need a lot of firepower to achieve your objective.
or Operation Roast where Commando's established the beachhead needed for the regular forces to advance.

we have this tendency to assume that special operations are all stealth small unit infantry stuff, but a lot of that is due to hollywood. in times of open war, special forces also operate as elite strike forces. (look at how the US Army Rangers and Delta Force operated in Somalia in the 90's for example.)

[rogueranger1993]

Thanks for the input, guys, you've all given me some great ideas. I actually watched a WWII commando documentary that talked about the Nazaire raid, but totally forgot about it until glitterboy mentioned it. I've got all kinds of evil ideas for my story protagonists now...  >:D

[Kidd]

The various British commando raids on occupied France, the Chindits and Marauders in Burma, SAS and LRDG deep strike raids in Africa; more recently, the invasion of Panama and the Scud hunt during the 1st Gulf War... are all famous episodes in the history of spec ops where more firepower than usual was called for.

[Weirdo]

Your Scud hunt mention gave me an idea for a scenario. The line troops are busy, so you have to send a couple lances of Dark Shadows to neutralize a battery of Kalkis that's been hammering your lines. Those Kalkis have escorts. Good luck.

[Sartris]

Your Scud hunt mention gave me an idea for a scenario. The line troops are busy, so you have to send a couple lances of Dark Shadows to neutralize a battery of Kalkis that's been hammering your lines. Those Kalkis have escorts. Good luck.

These are the types of missions that form the backbone of the chaos campaigns I run. The player unit is nearly always a supplemental or lower-echelon force in part of a broader conflict. They get sent to do the "special" work - small convoy intercepts, artillery hunting, preliminary recon, snatch and grabs, counterinsurgency ops, defending forward positions etc. The work is almost always done with mechs and vehicles. Important work, but not the kind that causes an enemy commander to deploy substantial reserves in the middle of a multi-regiment conflict.

[Colt Ward]

One other thing to think about is the 'window' of opportunity.  They would be used for 'assault' type roles, get in fast, hammer everything fast and then try to get back out to the LZ for dustoff before the distraction is over or that DS/WS/navy ship comes back on its patrol to close the gap in sensor coverage.

The troops will also have more combat experience than the average line soldier but it will not be in pitched battles.  They are also going to have a broader set of training- so those mechwarriors can also probably drive a lot of military vehicles, operate a lot of different weapons and know some intel techniques.  For instance, look at how they call some positions in special forces teams- Demo, Sniper, Commo, Infil, etc.

Also, Special Forces tend to be 'overarmed' because the response to a situation is to kick back with maximum violence and move.  Look at how to respond to a ambush to get the philosophy why they are heavily armed.

[Kidd]

Your Scud hunt mention gave me an idea for a scenario. The line troops are busy, so you have to send a couple lances of Dark Shadows to neutralize a battery of Kalkis that's been hammering your lines. Those Kalkis have escorts. Good luck.

Indeed, why not? That's a classic spec-ops mission - the Spetsnaz trained to do exactly that to NATO nuke silos and MLRS batteries, and vice versa the NATO special forces e.g. US Green Berets, French Commandos Marine, etc.

They are also going to have a broader set of training- so those mechwarriors can also probably drive a lot of military vehicles, operate a lot of different weapons and know some intel techniques.  For instance, look at how they call some positions in special forces teams- Demo, Sniper, Commo, Infil, etc.

Yup, special forces basically are cross-trained soldiers, combining in 1 individual the ability to do many things and therefore benefit from that synergy. While surveillance and intelligence-gathering is still 1 of their best uses, SF can create opportunities for "direct action" ie shooting stuff up which conventional forces can't.

SAFE's Dark Shadows probably had some kind of basic direct action mission like this: infiltrate an enemy depot far behind the front line via unmarked ship or blending into the civilian population, hack and steal a lance of enemy Mechs, blow up the depot, then exfiltrate (if possible).

[Weirdo]

I wonder if Dark Shadows pilots are ever tapped for Liberator units, the guys sent to infiltrate a world, foment unrest, and destabilize the place prior to a FWLM assault.

[rogueranger1993]

So many awesome ideas, I'm going to have to use them in future - especially once I can actually find a gaming group to play with.

The troops will also have more combat experience than the average line soldier but it will not be in pitched battles.

That is definitely true. These guys would almost certainly be trained to operate with little support, thereby reducing their detectable footprint, so a collection of technical skills among the unit members might make a lot of sense. Interrogation and intelligence gathering skills are very likely as well, as are infiltration, demolitions, and personal combat skills. I see them specializing in 'mech combat and then being trained to operate effectively outside of the machine as well.

That said, though, these guys are tapped for battlemech missions that are risky and/or cannot be completed by regular forces, so I think it would be likely that the average member of the Dark Shadows has a higher skill level in 'mech combat then your average mechwarrior - possibly veteran skill as the average, and certainly no green pilots.

I wonder if Dark Shadows pilots are ever tapped for Liberator units, the guys sent to infiltrate a world, foment unrest, and destabilize the place prior to a FWLM assault.

That kind of thing sounds a bit more like what SAFE's Eagle Corps and other conventional SpecOps troops would be doing, since that kind of operation would be more suited for traditional special forces. However, I won't say that it couldn't happen, especially if heavy firepower were needed for the operation's success.

[Colt Ward]

Well, the other thing you do have to realize is there will be a lot of carry over.  Once a soldier goes over the wall there is a good chance they will hop from SpecOps team to team . . . for instance, did you ever see the movie Green Berets?  John Wayne makes a comment about taking some of the newly graduated Rangers as Berets.  And it happens, a soldier goes Ranger . . . then later on undergoes selection for the Green Berets . . . then tries out for Delta Force . . . along the way he gains rank and so goes back as a Ranger platoon leader to check that box, or spends time in a training command or perhaps even as a recruiter (which is a solid way to have some lengthy physical rehab).  Then goes back to special ops as a team leader or such.  This does not even take into account detached duty with intel organizations or being tapped for a solo mission b/c of their familiarity or specialties relating to the task.

[glitterboy2098]

Well, the other thing you do have to realize is there will be a lot of carry over.  Once a soldier goes over the wall there is a good chance they will hop from SpecOps team to team . . . for instance, did you ever see the movie Green Berets?  John Wayne makes a comment about taking some of the newly graduated Rangers as Berets.  And it happens, a soldier goes Ranger . . . then later on undergoes selection for the Green Berets . . . then tries out for Delta Force . . . along the way he gains rank and so goes back as a Ranger platoon leader to check that box, or spends time in a training command or perhaps even as a recruiter (which is a solid way to have some lengthy physical rehab).  Then goes back to special ops as a team leader or such.  This does not even take into account detached duty with intel organizations or being tapped for a solo mission b/c of their familiarity or specialties relating to the task.

very true. within a certain limit. The green berets and Delta Force exist as Army units, which made it easy to recruit from other Army special ops groups lei kthe Rangers.. but i suspect it would be a lot harder for say, an Army Ranger to be recruited for the USMC Raiders or the Navy Seals. and those branch specific groups didn't always train and work together much historically.
one of the reasons that the Special operations Command (SOCOM) was created was to put all those groups under a single joint command so that they could more easily cross-train and cooperate without the branch rivalries getting in the way in the upper ranks.

[Colt Ward]

Yes, but SOCOM was a recreation of Vietnam era in theater organizations IIRC- like the SOGs.  I left out branch issues because for the most part we do not see that sort of division in BT since the navies are mostly ignored.

[SCC]

I think I need to point out that BT does thing's very differently to how RL SpecOps work:
1) RL SpecOps belong to the military, not the intelligence services like BT has.
2) Those raids that are always occurring in BT would probably be conducted by SpecOps in RL
And there was something else but I can't remember anymore.

[PsihoKekec]

Not neccesarily. In Soviet union the most Spetsnaz units were under GRU control and some under KGB (Vympel for example), continuing this practice in Russia until 2008 reforms.

[Minemech]

I wonder if Dark Shadows pilots are ever tapped for Liberator units, the guys sent to infiltrate a world, foment unrest, and destabilize the place prior to a FWLM assault.

That is more of a 13th Marik Militia role.

[Kidd]

I think I need to point out that BT does thing's very differently to how RL SpecOps work:
1) RL SpecOps belong to the military, not the intelligence services like BT has.
2) Those raids that are always occurring in BT would probably be conducted by SpecOps in RL
And there was something else but I can't remember anymore.

1) no one knows for sure. But we do know army spec ops are sometimes seconded to intelligence agencies for direct action aka wetwork.

2) true, there are direct parallels between the skirmishes of the 3025s and WW2 commando raids, and the commandos certainly were considered special forces. But the concept is also similar - in WW2 too the raids were conducted by small groups of handpicked men temporarily seconded from their parent units, just like a company of Mechwarriors in 3025 would have been. So how "special" are those Mechwarriors really?

Larger, regimental-size raids seem to bear more resemblance to the Dieppe op actually IMHO.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I think I need to point out that BT does thing's very differently to how RL SpecOps work:
1) RL SpecOps belong to the military, not the intelligence services like BT has.
2) Those raids that are always occurring in BT would probably be conducted by SpecOps in RL
And there was something else but I can't remember anymore.

Honestly both of these points are basically valid.  The House books do confirm that the various House armies have special forces, but the uber ones we hear about (other than Death Commandos) are intelligence service related.  DEST, Rabid Foxes, Loki, Eagle Corps are all analogous to CIA's "special forces" rather than Army Rangers or Navy SEALS.  When we hear in lore about special forces, the writers tend to default to these rather than detailing the actual military special forces.  For example, the DCMS has special forces under its own command as opposed to the DEST operators under ISF command, but when you hear about Kurita commandos do you ever hear about anything other than DEST?  Nope.  Same is true around the rest of the Inner Sphere.

And on point two, mech forces are described as doing "special forces" work quite a lot of the time.  The writers of the BTU operate on rule of cool rather than actual military doctrine, and that's fine.  Necessary, even.  But it does inevitably blur lines when you try to go back and apply real world perspectives.