Author Topic: Mechs that are taboo  (Read 13075 times)

Precentor Scorpio

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Mechs that are taboo
« on: 18 December 2017, 09:43:13 »
Only the WOB Celestrial's series of omni-mechs are considered taboo after the Jihad correct?  The Whiteflame and Blueframe mechs are "socially" acceptable correct?

Maelwys

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #1 on: 18 December 2017, 10:18:51 »
Not really. Most of the WoB designs got the "Bad Reputation" quirk and disappeared after the Jihad. The only ones that really remain are the ones that were designed late in the Jihad, or are sort of generic sort of Project Phoenix Mechs (so like the Osprey survives, and the 9W Marauder is updated to the 9W2).

Stuff that's iconic "WoB" disappears rather quickly. It perhaps isn't as fast or as structured as the Celestial removal, but everything seems to phase out rather quickly. (maybe too quickly considering the history of the universe and factory issues, but eh).

So while the Celestials probably got lots of press releases and are the readily recognizable design to the general public, the other designs will suffer from a similar, if not as wide-spread stigma. A farmer on a podunk world would probably recognize a Seraph, but not necessarily a Blue Flame on sight.

Luciora

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #2 on: 18 December 2017, 13:35:15 »
Von Rohrs.  None seem to exist after the fall of that particular regime.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #3 on: 18 December 2017, 16:34:06 »
Mitchelson found that even despite post-war 'Mech shortages, they couldn't sell the Blue Flame. Nobody wanted it because of it's association with the Word. I can't imagine that the Toyama did very well either, given its name.
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Azakael

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #4 on: 18 December 2017, 18:22:03 »
And here I am, trying to justify keeping a salvaged Lightray, knowing it is a WoB 'Mech - despite it having no actual effect on the campaign. (Total Chaos.)

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #5 on: 18 December 2017, 19:12:28 »
And here I am, trying to justify keeping a salvaged Lightray, knowing it is a WoB 'Mech - despite it having no actual effect on the campaign. (Total Chaos.)

I think salvaged Blakist tech won’t cause anyone to bat an eyelid DURING the Jihad - you’re using whatever you can find.
It’s after, when everyone has an eye towards peace and downsizing armies that you run into issues.


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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #6 on: 18 December 2017, 19:58:30 »
Many WoB design are extinct by 3085, though whether they were scrapped post facto due to association with the robes or just wiped out in the fighting is often unclear

Some like the Yao Lien or Revenant (Bolla  and Purifier as well) are blatant ripoffs so even if there was a taboo, it wasn’t universal 

« Last Edit: 18 December 2017, 20:00:14 by Sartris »

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #7 on: 18 December 2017, 20:16:13 »
I think salvaged Blakist tech won’t cause anyone to bat an eyelid DURING the Jihad - you’re using whatever you can find.
It’s after, when everyone has an eye towards peace and downsizing armies that you run into issues.

This is just it -- in real life, everybody at the end of WW2 in Europe and the Middle East who wasn't the US, UK, France or USSR (including those you would have thought would have rather pitched it in a fire than touch it) were using discarded Wehrmacht surplus, mainly because beggars can't be choosers. Once those groups had gotten on their feet and were able to do without the German surplus equipment, they discarded it for other, less unsavory-sourced, gear.

So the same for the post-Jihad world. A planet that needs to protect itself probably is not going to look askance at discarded Blakist weapons, if the alternative is being defenseless.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #8 on: 18 December 2017, 21:12:45 »
This is just it -- in real life, everybody at the end of WW2 in Europe and the Middle East who wasn't the US, UK, France or USSR (including those you would have thought would have rather pitched it in a fire than touch it) were using discarded Wehrmacht surplus, mainly because beggars can't be choosers. Once those groups had gotten on their feet and were able to do without the German surplus equipment, they discarded it for other, less unsavory-sourced, gear.
the Wehrmacht built a lot of excellent gear. There was a US infantry division, I forget which, that captured and used so many German vehicles they moved as fast as a mechanised unit. I think it was obsolescence more than the Nazi reputation of the equipment that resulted in its gradual disuse. That which was not obsoleted remained in use - the MG-42 is still basically in service with the Bundeswehr and a couple European nations in its more updated form.




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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #9 on: 18 December 2017, 21:15:46 »
it helps to look at a IS map when you think about the question: What is the unit? Where was it built during the Jihad? Who owns the planet post Jihad? Answer those questions and you might get most of your answers...

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #10 on: 18 December 2017, 23:30:37 »
The other thing to remember is that a lot of the WoB designs had relatively short production runs. Compared to many 'Mechs that were in production for centuries, especially during the Star League, many WoB designs are only in production for twenty-odd years at best and some (Celestials) for a lot less then that.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #11 on: 19 December 2017, 00:33:43 »
given the number of designs with celestial like looks that were produced immediately after the Jihad, i sometimes wonder whether you could have just given the WOB designs some vismods and gotten away with using them for awhile.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #12 on: 19 December 2017, 07:01:33 »
On a side note, the French Army fielded a lot of Panthers in the immediate aftermath of the war, so....yeah.  In any case, something else to remember is that a lot of the WoB's early backbone 'Mechs were built on Gibson by FWDI, and Gibson was glassed by the Regulans.  This more than anything is probably what put the kibosh on a bunch of designs because their own existed factory for replacements and spare parts literally went up in smoke.  Consider that they were in production for only a few decades and not the centuries we saw for Succession Wars-era machines, and they simply don't have the numbers to allow "survival through cannibalizing" that kept a lot of lost-factory-'Mechs operational during the Succession Wars.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #13 on: 19 December 2017, 07:38:36 »
the Wehrmacht built a lot of excellent gear. There was a US infantry division, I forget which, that captured and used so many German vehicles they moved as fast as a mechanised unit. I think it was obsolescence more than the Nazi reputation of the equipment that resulted in its gradual disuse. That which was not obsoleted remained in use - the MG-42 is still basically in service with the Bundeswehr and a couple European nations in its more updated form.


It was the 83rd Infantry Division, and they were refered to as the Rag-Tag Circus during the latter stages of WW2. They even had an Me-109.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #14 on: 19 December 2017, 07:39:54 »
I wonder what happened to other designs, that where NOT originally WoB designs. Like Panther -14S, Zeus -10WB or the Fafnir -5WB. Especially the Fafnir is a drastic redesign (no endosteel frame, completely different weapon layout), so rebuilding it as a standard -5 would be a rather big task.

Kidd

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #15 on: 19 December 2017, 07:40:51 »
Another great IRL example: the IDF made use of loads of captured Soviet-built T-54s, turning them into heavy APCs. This has continued with decommissioned Centurions and Merkavas replacing the Soviet equipment

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #16 on: 19 December 2017, 09:55:09 »
What happened in the aftermath of WWII was that a lot of German equipment was used briefly, and then replaced by new equipment as it became available, but the German designs had their own strengths and weaknesses that affected later development.  Some of the post-war Allied equipment shows ideas incorporated from German technology and doctrine.

An ideal example is the US's Vietnam era Squad Automatic Weapon, which is essentially a German MG-42 converted from metric to English measurement.  The SAW's poor reputation for jamming was apparently due to machining tolerances for the spent cartridge ejection port having changed during the conversion; the original never had that problem.   Also, US helmet designs gradually changed over the ensuing decades to include the extended protection to the back of the head provided by the German helmets, so modern US helmets look like a cross between WWII American and German helmets.  Good ideas tend to get reused, no matter where they came from.

The Celestials and other WoB 'Mechs may have vanished, but it can be assumed that many of their design elements and ideas will be incorporated into the next generation of Successor States designs.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #17 on: 19 December 2017, 10:34:03 »
not to mention the several 'kinda celestial-looking' units from TRO 3145 & 3150 (but that's a Real World reuse of the celestials via proxy)

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #18 on: 19 December 2017, 12:59:07 »
This is just it -- in real life, everybody at the end of WW2 in Europe and the Middle East who wasn't the US, UK, France or USSR (including those you would have thought would have rather pitched it in a fire than touch it) were using discarded Wehrmacht surplus, mainly because beggars can't be choosers.
Kinda hard to make that point any louder than this.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #19 on: 19 December 2017, 13:26:48 »
Yeah. Israeli pilots on Avia S-199's, which were Czechoslovakian  built Messerschmidt Bf-109G's using Junkers Jumo 211 engines and props (same as the HE111 used). Had some (serious) handling problems, but were some of the best fighters Israel could get at its founding. And the irony was not lost on their pilots.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #20 on: 19 December 2017, 13:42:37 »
Kinda hard to make that point any louder than this.


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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #21 on: 19 December 2017, 14:47:13 »
I figure that there are few 'Mechs prohibited by taboo in the Inner Sphere.
The Celestials certainly, but that's about it.

Practicality is what will have gotten rid of most of the WoB 'Mechs from Spheroid forces. Nations tend to prefer their homegrown 'Mechs due to logistics, it is easier to keep your own stuff supplied that trying to figure out where to get parts for (pristine or not) WoB 'Mechs. Not to mention a lot of WoB 'Mechs use C3i computers which are problematic for standard Spheroid forces.
With post-Jihad peace, you get even more incentive for this. To keep your military-industrial complex functioning, you gotta get them some work. This leads to a situation where nations mothball a lot of their older equipment and whatever they may have captured, and focus on modernizing generally downsized forces using homegrown sources.
Throwing away WoB "taboo" 'Mechs is just bonus PR boost, they'd be gotten rid of anyway as this is no Successsion Wars era anymore when you couldn't afford to get rid of anything but the absolutely worst (like the Chargers).

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #22 on: 19 December 2017, 15:01:29 »
I suspect that part of the reason Celestials didn't find many users after, taboo or not, is the design it self. Those built for use with VDNI didn't have cockpits useable without VDNI, as I understand it, and those with full cockpits have small cockpits, which make them tough to pilot. Combine that with a reliance on C3I and lack of new spare parts, and they would be a tricky prospect for a unit.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #23 on: 19 December 2017, 15:14:47 »
I'm pretty sure that something somewhere stated that Devlin Stone pushed really, really hard for scrapping all Celestials.
Hell, he probably almost got a heart attack when reports came Ghost Bears were experimenting with C3i computers.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #24 on: 19 December 2017, 16:20:30 »
Stone didn't, but some planets and factions decided to destroy Blakist equipment. Some stripped the machines to their frames, then destroyed the frames. Others fired the entire machines into the local star.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #25 on: 19 December 2017, 17:09:23 »
Stones plan to break down mechs post jihad probably had something to do with it though.

Not just celestials. There are apparently a lot of mechs in Terra's boneyard.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #26 on: 19 December 2017, 17:40:07 »
I wonder what happened to other designs, that where NOT originally WoB designs. Like Panther -14S, Zeus -10WB or the Fafnir -5WB. Especially the Fafnir is a drastic redesign (no endosteel frame, completely different weapon layout), so rebuilding it as a standard -5 would be a rather big task.

I suspect many of these were discontinued in production and their lines retooled to be more conventional, less WoB-centric variants.

The -5WB Fafnir is a rare case where we explictly know a variant's fate. The Word slagged the Hesperus II Fafnir lines rather then let the Lyrans have them back.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #27 on: 20 December 2017, 04:14:16 »
Good ideas tend to get reused, no matter where they came from.

The Celestials and other WoB 'Mechs may have vanished, but it can be assumed that many of their design elements and ideas will be incorporated into the next generation of Successor States designs.
Funny enough, this is apparent in several Dark Age machines.

Examples include the Kheper, Uraeus, Tenshi, the whole of the Rhodes Project, the Viking IIC* (Yes, I know this one is kind of grasping for straws), the Revenant (Modified and still in use), the resurrected Atlas II, the Thunder Fox, and several more.

*The Viking may be considered more of a 'Comstar' design, but the IIC reboot being at the hands of a Rasalhague Dominion manufacturer is surprising, especially since the Viking was used by the Word of Blake.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #28 on: 21 December 2017, 13:05:52 »
Celestials will be taboo.

Just about the only mechs that are.  Clanners dont turn their noses up at Wolverine mechs, they just call it something else, and they are uncharcteristically reasonable in treating captured Wolverine pilots like anyone else.

As has been mntioned earlier in war, especially a desperate war you use what you have got.

Celestals will garner the stigma because you can't use them, advanced Blakist mechs have special cockpits and require correct implants to pilot.  Those arent even available to most rank and file Wobbies let alone whoever captures them.  It will be far more effort to rig a new control system and cockpit to a Celestial than it would be to crap the lot for parts.

As only a dedicated Wobbie, usually Manei Domini, or equivalent can pilot a Celestial they will earn an ever declining stigma.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #29 on: 21 December 2017, 14:27:47 »
Just about the only mechs that are.  Clanners dont turn their noses up at Wolverine mechs, they just call it something else, and they are uncharcteristically reasonable in treating captured Wolverine pilots like anyone else.
I thought the SOP for Wolverines was kill all warriors on sight.  Non-warrior caste Wolverines were killed or sterilized at the local commander's discretion.

Celestals will garner the stigma because you can't use them, advanced Blakist mechs have special cockpits and require correct implants to pilot.  Those arent even available to most rank and file Wobbies let alone whoever captures them.  It will be far more effort to rig a new control system and cockpit to a Celestial than it would be to crap the lot for parts.
Swapping the small cockpits out for standards will only cost a ton.  Most mechs can accomodate that for the cost of a medium laser.  In the case of a lot of WoB variants of older designs, yanking the C3i will give you that and more.

A big problem with the Celestials is the whole "can't modifying and Omnimech" thing.  Yanking the fixed C3i would break the Omniness, but could you replace a VDNI small cockpit with a regular small cockpit without letting the Omni-smoke out?
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #30 on: 21 December 2017, 14:31:17 »
I think it will cost more than a ton.  The entire interface is neural linked.  The whole mech will need custom rewiring.  Better to strip it for parts.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #31 on: 21 December 2017, 15:47:57 »
I thought I read somewhere that Rim World designs were also taboo after the Amaris fracas.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #32 on: 21 December 2017, 16:12:19 »
I thought I read somewhere that Rim World designs were also taboo after the Amaris fracas.

Dragoon, Phoenix, and Rampage probably. Some other closely associated designs like the Whitworth WTH-0 didn't hang on long either

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #33 on: 21 December 2017, 16:48:51 »
The Dragoons were constructed on Earth, and Kerensky had all extant Dragoons destroyed (minus one at least, given that it was in the hands of the ComGuards during the Dark Age). Presumably the Dragoons didn't really get to fight elsewhere given its nature as a very new 'Mech.
So, taboo kinda doesn't apply to it.

I would assume in most cases for Rim World designs, practicality had far more effect on their extinction than taboo: The Succession Wars began soon after so they might have been pressed to service anyway, and parts supply for them most certainly will have dried out quickly.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #34 on: 21 December 2017, 21:16:05 »
The RWR mechs might have just been scrapped for parts instead of put into service. In addition to the Amaris stigma, the 1st SW still had large armies using their own home-grown mechs, so using the Rimmy mechs wouldn't have been as viable. Especially with the supporting production for those mechs having been obliterated by Kerensky.

That's my reasoning. The MUL shows the Rampage and the Phoenix as being extinct by the early SW era, so they may have their own version of why they don't exist after the Amaris war.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #35 on: 22 December 2017, 17:41:50 »
The Dragoon was the only RWR 'Mech design specifically scrapped. The others did suffer the double punch of losing their production lines and having the only major user very thoroughly destroyed though. IIRC, the Rampage and Phoenix did survive into the Succession Wars but eventually became extinct.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #36 on: 22 December 2017, 18:05:08 »
I think it will cost more than a ton.  The entire interface is neural linked.  The whole mech will need custom rewiring.  Better to strip it for parts.
As per IO, pg 68,
Quote
The direct neural interface cockpit modification
is required to enable a unit to be piloted directly by a warrior
augmented by a direct neural interface implant. A cockpit that is not
so modified can only be operated manually and/or with standard
neurohelmet aid, thus negating all of the benefits of the neural
interface technology.
and
Quote
Direct neural interface modifications add no
significant weight or critical space to the cockpit and control systems
of the modified unit,

However, if Quirks are in play, using a cockpit that is setup for VDNI with a regular neurohelmet gives you Hard to Pilot.  Which if stacked with the +1 PSR from the Celestial's small cockpit, is starting to be an issue.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #37 on: 23 December 2017, 09:54:52 »
I thought the SOP for Wolverines was kill all warriors on sight.  Non-warrior caste Wolverines were killed or sterilized at the local commander's discretion.

I am talking about the 55 ton Wolverine mech, not the Not Named clan.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #38 on: 14 January 2018, 06:13:42 »
I'd expect that in a lot of places, celestials are extinct. And that mech that is armed the same, is the same tonnage and has some suspiciously flimsy additions to its body to "break up the design" totally isn't a celestial. Nope, no-sirree.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #39 on: 14 January 2018, 19:08:16 »
I'd expect that in a lot of places, celestials are extinct. And that mech that is armed the same, is the same tonnage and has some suspiciously flimsy additions to its body to "break up the design" totally isn't a celestial. Nope, no-sirree.

To be honest, I can’t imagine someone turning down a definitely-not-a-celestial unless it was a demonstrable widowmaker. If it was killing or crippling Mechwarriors, sure I’d be leery, but just because it still smells of toaster worshipper doesn’t mean they’d think all that hard on whether being Dispossessed is better.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #40 on: 14 January 2018, 20:33:20 »
 Shame about the Dragoon, it is a sweet ride. The LRM version is about as good a fire support as you can get.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #41 on: 15 January 2018, 03:21:03 »
To be honest, I can’t imagine someone turning down a definitely-not-a-celestial unless it was a demonstrable widowmaker. If it was killing or crippling Mechwarriors, sure I’d be leery, but just because it still smells of toaster worshipper doesn’t mean they’d think all that hard on whether being Dispossessed is better.

Given that the Celestials' extinction occurred at the same time as one of the biggest slow-downs in military spending in the BTU, I don't think that's likely to be accurate.  If you were looking for a new ride at that time, you probably had a buyer's market on mechs that didn't have the same bad rep.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #42 on: 15 January 2018, 07:18:30 »
   I'm running into this issue with a Merc unit I'm making. Made of former WoB and Comstar who abandon their factions in the wake of the Schism and the brutality of the Words Jihad tactics. The leader will be in a Legacy (because I own the mini and I love the design!) But I keep feeling that it just wouldn't be feasible... some mechs are less like historical tanks (say a German Panther, a generic crewed vehicle) and more like a uniform of allegiance and identity (a knights armour and tabbard). With the individuality of Mechwarriors identity, especially a merc, the mech they drive becomes a part of their public and professional persona, and with the level of hatred the Jihad generated for all things WoB, driving a mech so identified with that organization could not only be a bad business decision, but mortally dangerous on the field.
I'm torn about keeping the machine... I'm thinking he would use it during the Jihad, as a specific insult to his WoB enemies, but after the Jihad I think quietly replacing the machine would be the best way to go...

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #43 on: 15 January 2018, 07:34:11 »
I buy into that. Cause I see a Legacy or a Celestial, yes I WILL gun for it. Something satisfying about taking down a totem Mech, because... well because it IS a totem.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #44 on: 15 January 2018, 08:57:36 »
Its possible that you could justify keeping the Legacy if your pilot was known for a quirk of "redeeming reputation" for lack of a better description.  (Not everyone will know about your character's reputation so he could still be a marked individual when he goes into combat.  But enough individuals will know of his reputation to give him employment opportunities or want him on their side.)  If you go this route, you should consider giving the mech a custom paint job, logo, or something on the mech to clearly identify your leader as a special individual and not just a generic warrior.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #45 on: 15 January 2018, 15:57:32 »
I'd expect that in a lot of places, celestials are extinct. And that mech that is armed the same, is the same tonnage and has some suspiciously flimsy additions to its body to "break up the design" totally isn't a celestial. Nope, no-sirree.
Other than the Prefect, what are we talking about?
According to Sarna, the Uraeus and Kheper didn't come along until the 3120's with the reborn 1st Division.

Given that the Celestials' extinction occurred at the same time as one of the biggest slow-downs in military spending in the BTU, I don't think that's likely to be accurate.  If you were looking for a new ride at that time, you probably had a buyer's market on mechs that didn't have the same bad rep.

There's a pure financial perspective too.  Sure you could probably scoop up a Grigori for the price of a Strider, but you also have to think about finding parts for the bloody thing.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 16:14:32 by grimlock1 »
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #46 on: 15 January 2018, 20:36:48 »
Other than the Prefect, what are we talking about?
According to Sarna, the Uraeus and Kheper didn't come along until the 3120's with the reborn 1st Division.

There's a pure financial perspective too.  Sure you could probably scoop up a Grigori for the price of a Strider, but you also have to think about finding parts for the bloody thing.

The Yao Lien is supposedly made from spare Celestial parts. But the Capellans probably wouldn't be thrilled to work with someone insisting on using a Celestial omni.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #47 on: 15 January 2018, 21:23:37 »
Other than the Prefect, what are we talking about?
According to Sarna, the Uraeus and Kheper didn't come along until the 3120's with the reborn 1st Division.

There's a pure financial perspective too.  Sure you could probably scoop up a Grigori for the price of a Strider, but you also have to think about finding parts for the bloody thing.
To me the Prefect barely looks like a Celestial. Much less so than the latter two of course, and those were obviously deliberate.

Another thought occurred to me. Celestials and other WOB designs might attract more attention than the users are comfortable with. If you're a mercenary or House unit trying to make a little 3025-style cross-border raid, the last thing you want is for the target to start bleating on HPG to all neighbouring planets "HALP THE BLAKISTS ARE BACK I WAS RAIDED BY AN UNIDENTIFIED FORCE USING CELESTIALS"

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #48 on: 15 January 2018, 21:53:55 »
Yeah, that's another consideration: people see Celestials getting off your dropship and start chucking Davy Crocketts at you.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #49 on: 16 January 2018, 11:20:50 »
On the other hand, if (for example) the FedSuns wanted to take a little heat off their border, a few leftover Celestials from the bad old days making a raid or two deep in Capellan space would be a great way to sow a little confusion.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #50 on: 16 January 2018, 15:46:25 »
I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already. Any state should be able to dig up a dozen Celestials and the fanatics to pilot them for blackest-of-black operations. Use a small JumpShip to insert in the outer fringes of the target system, coast a Union to the planet, land quietly, then raise hell.

Of course, even if such a terror raid was conducted by actual Blakist remnants, the Capellans would blame the Federated Suns...
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #51 on: 16 January 2018, 18:09:18 »
The Yao Lien is supposedly made from spare Celestial parts. But the Capellans probably wouldn't be thrilled to work with someone insisting on using a Celestial omni.

The Eidolon was designed to be built from surplus Celestial parts.  The Yao Lien is built with Capellan made parts, at least after the initial run production run or two. The Capellans were able to steal most, if not all of the manufacturing data, and a fair amount of the tooling from Liberty in 3078.  From there, it's almost a turn-key operation to start producing parts locally.

Also look at the production window.  Yes, it was a WoB mech, during the Jihad, but it didn't show up until AFTER the WoB was on the back foot. Also consider that it was used by WoB Militia, not the Shadow Divisions.
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JadedFalcon

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #52 on: 17 January 2018, 01:09:13 »
The Eidolon was designed to be built from surplus Celestial parts.  The Yao Lien is built with Capellan made parts, at least after the initial run production run or two. The Capellans were able to steal most, if not all of the manufacturing data, and a fair amount of the tooling from Liberty in 3078.  From there, it's almost a turn-key operation to start producing parts locally.

Also look at the production window.  Yes, it was a WoB mech, during the Jihad, but it didn't show up until AFTER the WoB was on the back foot. Also consider that it was used by WoB Militia, not the Shadow Divisions.

Interesting point about the Eidolon and Yao Lien being functionally identical, but with potential incompatibilities due to changes in manufacturing and specs. The question then becomes how different are the Capellan components from the Celestials, and could parts from a Yao Lien be used to repair a Celestial with relative ease? Maybe the production model of the Yao Lien is too different to be a useful source of replacement parts.

I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already. Any state should be able to dig up a dozen Celestials and the fanatics to pilot them for blackest-of-black operations. Use a small JumpShip to insert in the outer fringes of the target system, coast a Union to the planet, land quietly, then raise hell.

Of course, even if such a terror raid was conducted by actual Blakist remnants, the Capellans would blame the Federated Suns...

As much as I like the notion of Celestials being kept for absurdist false flag missions, they'd be a really loud red herring and would seem to invite much more intense investigations than a gang of unremarkable pirate mechs. The red herring Celestials would have to be used for a very specific goal. Like attacking working HPGs in 3150. Or leaving breadcrumbs that implicates another nation as the one using Celestials for false flag ops.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #53 on: 17 January 2018, 01:23:04 »
On the other hand, if (for example) the FedSuns wanted to take a little heat off their border, a few leftover Celestials from the bad old days making a raid or two deep in Capellan space would be a great way to sow a little confusion.

"...They were driving WHAT? Wait, were they in a fade scheme or tiger-stripes? IT MATTERS."
So evil... so awesome...

The red herring Celestials would have to be used for a very specific goal. Like attacking working HPGs in 3150. Or leaving breadcrumbs that implicates another nation as the one using Celestials for false flag ops.
Well shyeah. Look at the shenanigans in that bit of fiction in cant-remember-which-rulebook, The Circle. Par for the IS intelligence agency course.

JadedFalcon

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #54 on: 17 January 2018, 01:36:50 »
Well shyeah. Look at the shenanigans in that bit of fiction in cant-remember-which-rulebook, The Circle. Par for the IS intelligence agency course.

Well, I can't argue if cranking it to eleven is standard practice...

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #55 on: 17 January 2018, 17:39:35 »
Interesting point about the Eidolon and Yao Lien being functionally identical, but with potential incompatibilities due to changes in manufacturing and specs. The question then becomes how different are the Capellan components from the Celestials, and could parts from a Yao Lien be used to repair a Celestial with relative ease? Maybe the production model of the Yao Lien is too different to be a useful source of replacement parts.

For an IRL example, look at the B-29 and the TU-4.  Several US B-29's were unable to make it back to their bases after raids on Japan and diverted to Russia.  Being neutral in the Sino-US conflict, the Russians seized the planes and interned the crews, in accordance with international law.  Stalin ordred that a copy of thge B-29 be put into production, a process that took 2 years, which is also about how long it took Boeing to design and build the bloody thing in the first place.  This timeline may have been inflated by an overly bureaucratic organizational structure and the the knowledge that any mistakes would earn you a one way ticket to a gulag, if you were lucky.

Certain systems were swapped out for comparable Russian analogs like the guns or engines, but things like the Norden Bomb Sight were copied, exactly.   I'm a bit surprised that the bombardiers didn't destroy the sights, since those things were classified up the yin-yang and part of the bombardier's job was to either return the unit to base or destroy it...  Copying the Norden must have really sucked because it was a high precision mechanical computer, chock full of SAE parts. You can cut most SAE threads on a metric lathe.    Those threaded parts are then used to make gear hobbers, which in turn are used to make the dozens of tiny gears in the Norden. 

Speaking of SAE/Metric, the Soviets couldn't get there hands on 1/16" aluminium sheet, they alternated sheets of 0.8mm and 1.8mm to make weight.

I expect that everyone in the Sphere is using metric, but I can easily see bolt spacings change, and components swapped out, requiring a change in adjacent systems.   Data buses are likely to be different.  Even the style of molex connectors has a good chance of being different.  So an Eidolon and Yao Lien could have virtually identical performance  and still be made of incompatible parts.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #56 on: 18 January 2018, 10:52:12 »
Made of "mostly incompatible" parts.  It just takes a lot of additional time with a file and a hammer to make it fit, and then a few more days to get the whole cobbled mess to work together, and then for the computer to recognize its cryptic status messages as valid data, while ignoring MOST of the string of error messages.

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #57 on: 18 January 2018, 12:04:46 »
For an IRL example, look at the B-29 and the TU-4.  Several US B-29's were unable to make it back to their bases after raids on Japan and diverted to Russia.  Being neutral in the Sino-US conflict,

The US was bombing Japan during the Korean War?
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #58 on: 18 January 2018, 14:29:04 »
I always figured a unit would take any questionable mechs and give them a "plausible" makeover to look like something less taboo.

Say you are are an Amaris related unit sometime in the 1st Succession War, revamping yourselves as a Mercenary unit of private origins. What do you do with that single prized AEM-002 Dragoon (AC-20, ERPCC, a gaggle of lasers, 350XL...)?

Well, I figure you trade the ERPPC for an ERLL, flip it to the side of the AC-20 and vice-a-versa, and do some other light mods...then you give it as much of cosmetic makeover to look angular/Franckenmech-y and...Voila:

"That? Oh that's a customized Shootist. We traded out the Standard engine for an XL we salvaged after a bruising battle...it looks kinda wonky after all the extensive battle damage we've had to rebuild it form."

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #59 on: 19 January 2018, 13:12:27 »
The US was bombing Japan during the Korean War?

No, he's right. These were planes that couldn't return to their home base during raids on Japan during late WWII, and were forced to put down in then-neutral Soviet territory. Those three planes (exactly three, important later) were then used for testing and as the template for the Tu-4.

After production began, three "B-29s" flew over the May Day parade, where western observers assumed Stalin had the three ditched planes repaired and put in his own service... as they approached Red Square though, suddenly a fourth plane appeared and joined the formation. Wait... we lost three, so where did that one... oh. Oh no.

Soon the sky was full of Tu-4s flying over the crowd in small groups... sort of. The Soviet Air Force was landing them on a nearby empty stretch of highway, painting a new number on the tail, and sending the planes back over the crowd so it would look like they had hundreds of them in service (at this point there were only a couple dozen)

So yeah, grimlock1 is right in this case. By the time the Korean conflict rolled around, the B-29 was no secret to the Soviets anymore- any lost over North Korea were likely very interesting to Soviet 'observers', but there wasn't much to learn that the examples they already owned couldn't teach them.

(Now, the B-36... that was different. Likely as a result of the Tu-4 fiasco, my granddad was under strict orders to destroy any secret equipment- bomb sights, radios, etc.- in case of a crash. Just in case. His expert opinion was that they should have gifted a Peacemaker to the Russians so they'd have to suffer through using the god-awful things too.)
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #60 on: 19 January 2018, 13:41:31 »
Well the Sino-US conflict took place during the Korean War....
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #61 on: 19 January 2018, 15:42:49 »
(Now, the B-36... that was different. Likely as a result of the Tu-4 fiasco, my granddad was under strict orders to destroy any secret equipment- bomb sights, radios, etc.- in case of a crash. Just in case. His expert opinion was that they should have gifted a Peacemaker to the Russians so they'd have to suffer through using the god-awful things too.)
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Actually the idea of a batch of Celestials used as falseflag raids sounds awesome.  I'd say the Cappies would have the best chance for that - they had those two extra Warrior Houses of Kali's blakists, plus all the salvage when everything went to hell on Sian, plus?  The Death Commandos.  Stupid name, but terror tactics are totally right up their alley for things to do.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #62 on: 19 January 2018, 16:19:23 »
Well the Sino-US conflict took place during the Korean War....

Yep. "Sino" is a kind-of obsolete term for "relating to China." The WWII conflict between Japan and the U.S. and its allies is properly called the "Pacific War."

Actually the idea of a batch of Celestials used as falseflag raids sounds awesome.  I'd say the Cappies would have the best chance for that - they had those two extra Warrior Houses of Kali's blakists, plus all the salvage when everything went to hell on Sian, plus?  The Death Commandos.  Stupid name, but terror tactics are totally right up their alley for things to do.

NONE MORE DEATH.

I'm pretty sure everyone had plenty of Blakist salvage, even the Regulans, though I'm sure theirs was warm to the touch, even in winter. I am seriously surprised nobody staged such attacks. Even if they weren't deep-penetration, do-and-die, suicide missions, a few raids worlds on the border of the Periphery could cause a decent amount of panic.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #63 on: 19 January 2018, 16:24:56 »
The impression I got was that nobody wanted to believe the possibility of the Blakists surviving, so maybe doing false flag ops like that would have just struck a little too close to home.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #64 on: 19 January 2018, 16:49:25 »
The impression I got was that nobody wanted to believe the possibility of the Blakists surviving, so maybe doing false flag ops like that would have just struck a little too close to home.

Well, the other side of it is that if any DID survive... that could get awkward. Don't you hate when you run a false flag using leftover Blakist gear, pretending to be Manei Domini raiders, and then the real MD show up to kick your ass in the middle of the raid?

...

...actually, wait, why the hell am I not writing a campaign around this idea?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #65 on: 19 January 2018, 17:00:41 »
Yeah, it's always super embarrassing when you show up for a raid and there's a bunch of other dudes whose mechs have the same paint jobs as yours.
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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #66 on: 26 January 2018, 01:24:27 »
(Now, the B-36... that was different. Likely as a result of the Tu-4 fiasco, my granddad was under strict orders to destroy any secret equipment- bomb sights, radios, etc.- in case of a crash. Just in case. His expert opinion was that they should have gifted a Peacemaker to the Russians so they'd have to suffer through using the god-awful things too.)
I was under the impression that those polices were in place pretty much from jump street.  Gen. Hap Arnold ordered that Nordens had to be covered with a bag when the were being moved from the storage room to the plane before a mission.   Neville Chamberlain personally wrote to Roosevelt asking for Nordens to be installed on British bombers but was denied for security reasons.  Chaimberlain left office in 1940, before the Pacific War started.

Well the Sino-US conflict took place during the Korean War....
::faceplam::  Sino=Chinese.  My bad.

Well, the other side of it is that if any DID survive... that could get awkward. Don't you hate when you run a false flag using leftover Blakist gear, pretending to be Manei Domini raiders, and then the real MD show up to kick your ass in the middle of the raid?

...

...actually, wait, why the hell am I not writing a campaign around this idea?
Won't that be "interesting?"  Most of that MD gear is usable by frails but it's tuned for Domini.  Celestials tend to be favor armor over big
 guns because MD pilots don't miss often. That would put these faux-Blakists in a bit of a pickle...  'Cause genocidal, self-maiming, religious fanatics will totally be flattered that someone was impersonating them.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mechs that are taboo
« Reply #67 on: 26 January 2018, 01:46:29 »
Won't that be "interesting?"  Most of that MD gear is usable by frails but it's tuned for Domini.  Celestials tend to be favor armor over big
 guns because MD pilots don't miss often. That would put these faux-Blakists in a bit of a pickle...  'Cause genocidal, self-maiming, religious fanatics will totally be flattered that someone was impersonating them.

Well, if you were going to do a black ops mission impersonating the WoB, you'd be using highly skilled, fanatically loyal troops for the raid, not some unskilled turkeys who wouldn't be able to put up a convincing performance.
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