Request for a frigate design

[Alan Grant]

We have the Rapier Patrol Destroyer, which is specifically designed so that 2 can fit into the hold of a modified Mammoth dropship and carried along with an invasion force.

I'm looking for something similar, that fills a similar role on the high seas, but can be fit into the hold of a Mule class dropship. The idea being 1 of this vessels to 1 Mule.

Some basic requirements:
-Must have a helipad and at least 1 light vehicle bay
-Must be able to engage surface, air and submersible targets
-Tonnage 2,000 to 2,500 tons (leaving a comfortable margin so that the notion that a Mule can carry this will be deemed acceptable even by the most skeptical-minded)

Kinda thinking "pint sized" Rapier Patrol Destroyer here, but there's a lot of opportunity to put your own twist on it. Some of the aspects of the Rapier, like being able to serve as a floating aid station, aren't as important in my mind. The ability to carry a small number of infantry would be nice, to add versatility, but not required if it's not feasible.

Any takers on this challenge? The potential reward is that I'd like to submit such a design on an online game called Battletech-Mercenaries (you can google this). If it gets enough votes it becomes an approved design for use in the universe and merc units can "buy" and use it. Credit for the design would go to the designer, I'm not out to steal anything, just use with permission. But if it got approval it could mean that your design would be added to the list of approved designs in a Battletech alternate universe as part of an active online writing/collaborative fiction game.

In terms of fluff, I'm thinking that the Rapier Patrol Destroyer was deemed a good idea. But it's hard to wrangle up enough modified Mammoth class dropships to transport them with an invasion force. So somebody came up with this frigate, because Mules were easier to find. It's possible the two designs were intended to serve side-by-side. Or that another faction liked the concept of the Rapier and tried to mimic the general premise with this frigate. Just helping to brainstorm the possibilities....

If you want to discuss it privately just PM me.

EDIT: One last thing, an addendum to the rules. As best as can be achieved, I need it in the standard TRO format. That is how is has to be submitted to the community at Battletech-Mercenaries for discussion/voting/approval. One thing they are definitely going to want is BV and a C-Bill price tag would be awesome as well.

[Liam's Ghost]

Don't know how well this will suit your usage and I don't have any fluff for it, but I happen to have this lying around...

Tech Level: D
Motive Type: Naval (Large-Template B)
Mass: 2000 tons
Chassis Mass: 510 tons (armored)
Engine Mass: 522 tons (Fusion) 5/8 movement
Fuel: n/a
Armor (BAR 10): 189 points, 12 tons
Fore:29 Sides:25 Rear:20 Turrets:20

Equipment:
Communications Equipment, 10 tons, 1 slot, 10 crew
2 Field Kitchens, 6 tons, 2 slots, 6 crew
MASH (5 theaters), 7.5 tons, 1 slot, 15 crew
Helipad, 500 tons, 5 slots, 5 crew
2 Light Vehicle Cubicles, 100 tons, 2 slots
Infantry Bay (56 troops), 10 tons, 1 slot
12 Maritime Lifeboats, 12 tons
Advanced Fire Control 7.5 tons
Turret Mechanism 4.5 tons
General Cargo: 184.5

Weapons (19 gunners)
Sniper Artillery Piece (turret #1) 20 tons, 20 slots
4 AC/2 (turret #2) 24 tons, 4 slots
200 rounds sniper ammunition, 20 tons, 1 slot
450 rounds AC ammo, 10 tons, 1 slot
6 LRT 10 (3 right side, 3 left side) 30 tons, 12 slots
120 volleys LRT ammo, 10 tons, 1 slot

Crew: 10 officers, 59 enlisted

[DarthMetool]

Any restrictions on equipment/weapons?
What kind of price tag should we be gunning for?
Are there going to be any tech rating maximums?

Going to bed very soon.  Please respond in your own time.

[Hellraiser]

We have the Rapier Patrol Destroyer, which is specifically designed so that 2 can fit into the hold of a modified Mammoth dropship and carried along with an invasion force.

Curious.  Are they actually fluffed as going w/ Invasion Forces?
I'd think it would be more to deploy from where they were built as opposed to trying to use them for invasions.


Also, I'd suggest capping the Frigate at 2600 tons or smaller.  The size of each of the Mule's 3 Cargo Bays.

[Alan Grant]

No restrictions on weapons or gear. No tech level maximums. No cost restrictions.

I know that sounds generic but I would just love to see what people come up with. Whether that be something as simple and as cheap as possible (this is a merc-focused game where all new equipment has to be bought in-game, so that has appeal), or something as advanced tech as possible and anything in between. At the present time in canon nothing like this exists in this 2,000 to 5,000 ton range. So I'm not sure what cost bracket I'd put in there anyway. A design that seems super optimized in many ways, something that balances cost with capabilities, would be awesome.

Hellraiser, the Rapier's fluff says it can be transported as a whole unit with an invasion force or moved to a world that needs it, 2 per a modified Mammoth class dropship, that the ship was designed specifically with that in mind. No other canon naval unit we have above 100 tons says that, in this the Rapier is rather unique. It's the biggest blue water naval vessel we have that is fluffed as being able to go from dropship to water and right into active service. For that reason I love the Rapier. The problem in a game like Battletech-Mercenaries is that a Mammoth dropship is really expensive. It's hard to justify buying one with the sole aim of bringing two Rapiers along, which in the mind of most players is a very niche asset. By comparison a Mule is much more affordable.

The Rapier weighs 8,500 tons. No single cargo bay on the Mammoth can carry that much. So the dropper has been modified in some way, perhaps with cargo decks combined and the areas between then removed to create much larger spaces. I'm proposing the same thing with the Mule, so personally I think 4,999 is a good cap on this.

That said, a vessel that weighs less is not necessarily a bad thing. If you are able to cram a lot of good capabilities into a single smaller frame it could be a winning combo.

I'm not very good at the construction rules here. The reason I brought this challenge to this crowd is that obviously many of you are.

One last thing, an addendum to the rules. As best as can be achieved, I need it in the standard TRO format. That is how is has to be submitted to the community at Battletech-Mercenaries for discussion/voting/approval. One thing I would need is BV...someone who came up with the C-Bill cost as well would be a jaw dropper (I'll inevitably need both numbers but I could possibly come up with the C-Bill price tag myself).

[Alan Grant]

Don't know how well this will suit your usage and I don't have any fluff for it, but I happen to have this lying around...

Tech Level: D
Motive Type: Naval (Large-Template B)
Mass: 2000 tons
Chassis Mass: 510 tons (armored)
Engine Mass: 522 tons (Fusion) 5/8 movement
Fuel: n/a
Armor (BAR 10): 189 points, 12 tons
Fore:29 Sides:25 Rear:20 Turrets:20

Equipment:
Communications Equipment, 10 tons, 1 slot, 10 crew
2 Field Kitchens, 6 tons, 2 slots, 6 crew
MASH (5 theaters), 7.5 tons, 1 slot, 15 crew
Helipad, 500 tons, 5 slots, 5 crew
2 Light Vehicle Cubicles, 100 tons, 2 slots
Infantry Bay (56 troops), 10 tons, 1 slot
12 Maritime Lifeboats, 12 tons
Advanced Fire Control 7.5 tons
Turret Mechanism 4.5 tons
General Cargo: 184.5

Weapons (19 gunners)
Sniper Artillery Piece (turret #1) 20 tons, 20 slots
4 AC/2 (turret #2) 24 tons, 4 slots
200 rounds sniper ammunition, 20 tons, 1 slot
450 rounds AC ammo, 10 tons, 1 slot
6 LRT 10 (3 right side, 3 left side) 30 tons, 12 slots
120 volleys LRT ammo, 10 tons, 1 slot

Crew: 10 officers, 59 enlisted

I'm intrigued.....thanks for the submission. I just don't have anything to compare it to yet. But definitely keeping this in mind. Before I could really use it though I'd need some other pieces of information that you would see on a TRO or record sheet to go with it.

[Hellraiser]

Hellraiser, the Rapier's fluff says it can be transported as a whole unit with an invasion force or moved to a world that needs it, 2 per a modified Mammoth class dropship, that the ship was designed specifically with that in mind. No other canon naval unit we have above 100 tons says that, in this the Rapier is rather unique. It's the biggest blue water naval vessel we have that is fluffed as being able to go from dropship to water and right into active service.

The Rapier weighs 8,500 tons. No single cargo bay on the Mammoth can carry that much. So the dropper has been modified in some way, perhaps with cargo decks combined and the areas between then removed to create much larger spaces. I'm proposing the same thing with the Mule, so personally I think 4,999 is a good cap on this. 

You might want to check the Mammoth again.  It only has 2 cargo sections and each is over 18KT.
I know this is contrary to the "fluff" of 5 decks at 7000 each.  But just going by stats on the sheet they are large enough.

The Mule has 3 decks, each between 2-3KT.  So limiting Frigates to 2.5K or less, which is what LG's example is, would be a good way to fit them in a single bay & could actually then move 3 of them at once.  Or keep it at 2 & have the 3rd pay as pure "cargo".

[Alan Grant]

Ok I see what you mean.

That does constrict things a bit but I agree. So looking for a 2,000 - 2,500 ton vessel guys. I edited my original post.

Sorry, I should have looked at the Mammoth more closely.

[DarthMetool]

Ha!  Ahahaha!  Ha.  Ha.  2 in the blipping morning.  This wouldn't let me go for some reason, and you cut down the tonnage so my 4500-ton frigate won't be finished.

Type: Falchion II-class Frigate
Chassis: Naval Vessel (Large, Template B)
Tonnage: 2400 tons
Rating: E/X-X-E

Equipment                                              Mass
Chassis/Control                                       612
Engine/Trans                Fusion                626.5
  Cruise MP:                      5
  Maximum MP:                 8
Heat Sinks                        32                     32
Fuel                                    -                       0
Turrets (2)                                                  6
Armor (BAR 10)               206                    13
  Fore                     32                    25
  Fore R/L               32                    25
  Aft R/L                 32                    25
  Aft                        32                    21
  Turrets (2)           32                    30
Weapons and Ammo                         Loc   Mass
Arrow IV Missile, 2 Autocannon/2      T1      27
2 LRM-15, 2 Autocannon/2                T2      26
LRT-10                                                 F        5
Large Laser, LRM-5                             FR       7
Large Laser, LRM-5                             FL        7
Large Laser, LRM-5                             AR       7
Large Laser, LRM-5                             AL       7
LRT-10                                                 A       5
Ammo (Arrow IV) 50                           Bo     10
Ammo (AC/2) 900                               Bo     20
Ammo (LRM-15) 64                             Bo      8
Ammo (LRM-5) 120                             Bo      5
Ammo (LRT-10) 120                           Bo      10
CASE                                                   Bo      0.5

Crew: 14 officers, 39 enlisted/nonrated, 32 gunners, 10 bay personnel
Cargo:
   259 tons standard  2 doors (aft right/aft left)
   100 tons 2 light vehicle bays 1 door (rear)

Notes: Features Tech Rating D armored chassis, engine and armor, advanced fire control (9.5 tons), communication
equipment (7 tons), field kitchen (3 tons), helipad (500 tons), 3 jump infantry bays (18 tons), 17 lifeboats (maritime,
17 tons), MASH with 3 extra theaters (6.5 tons), 4 second-class quarters (28 tons).

Battle Value: 4969
Cost: 14,093,504

If they get their hands on some, a merc outfit could replace the old armor with 14 tons of ferro lamellor armor as stated
in Tactical Operations.  There is one slot left open to accept the one slot needed to use the armor, along with having a
Tech Rating D armored chassis.

[Alan Grant]

Ha!  Ahahaha!  Ha.  Ha.  2 in the blipping morning.  This wouldn't let me go for some reason, and you cut down the tonnage so my 4500-ton frigate won't be finished.

Type: Falchion II-class Frigate
Chassis: Naval Vessel (Large, Template B)
Tonnage: 2400 tons
Rating: E/X-X-E

Equipment                                              Mass
Chassis/Control                                       612
Engine/Trans                Fusion                626.5
  Cruise MP:                      5
  Maximum MP:                 8
Heat Sinks                        32                     32
Fuel                                    -                       0
Turrets (2)                                                  6
Armor (BAR 10)               206                    13
  Fore                     32                    25
  Fore R/L               32                    25
  Aft R/L                 32                    25
  Aft                        32                    21
  Turrets (2)           32                    30
Weapons and Ammo                         Loc   Mass
Arrow IV Missile, 2 Autocannon/2      T1      27
2 LRM-15, 2 Autocannon/2                T2      26
LRT-10                                                 F        5
Large Laser, LRM-5                             FR       7
Large Laser, LRM-5                             FL        7
Large Laser, LRM-5                             AR       7
Large Laser, LRM-5                             AL       7
LRT-10                                                 A       5
Ammo (Arrow IV) 50                           Bo     10
Ammo (AC/2) 900                               Bo     20
Ammo (LRM-15) 64                             Bo      8
Ammo (LRM-5) 120                             Bo      5
Ammo (LRT-10) 120                           Bo      10
CASE                                                   Bo      0.5

Crew: 14 officers, 39 enlisted/nonrated, 32 gunners, 10 bay personnel
Cargo:
   259 tons standard  2 doors (aft right/aft left)
   100 tons 2 light vehicle bays 1 door (rear)

Notes: Features Tech Rating D armored chassis, engine and armor, advanced fire control (9.5 tons), communication
equipment (7 tons), field kitchen (3 tons), helipad (500 tons), 3 jump infantry bays (18 tons), 17 lifeboats (maritime,
17 tons), MASH with 3 extra theaters (6.5 tons), 4 second-class quarters (28 tons).

Battle Value: 4969
Cost: 14,093,504

If they get their hands on some, a merc outfit could replace the old armor with 14 tons of ferro lamellor armor as stated
in Tactical Operations.  There is one slot left open to accept the one slot needed to use the armor, along with having a
Tech Rating D armored chassis.

Nicely done dude. I've had that 2-in-the-morning-obsessed-feeling myself so I am familiar with it. What inspired the name Falchion II? Just curious.

I'm pleasantly surprised by the price tag, it's a lot lower than I expected.

[DarthMetool]

Awake again.

Named the original 4500-ton hull Falchion because, well, its supposed to be a smaller Rapier.  A rapier is a type of sword,
so I got out a list of shortswords and falchion seemed a decent enough name.

Then you shortened the tonnage.  Therefore, the smaller 2400-ton hull I designed is now the Falchion II.

Can you imagine the designer for the first hull getting about halfway done with blueprints before someone comes along and
reminds him of the Mule's cargo limitations?  Kinda felt like the guy looking back and forth between his blueprints and the
on-screen display of a Mule's cargo area with a hangdog expression.

[Hellraiser]

I think the only L2 tech on the Fal-II is the Arrow & CASE right?
I'd consider going full L1 tech & use a Sniper w/o CASE
I like the double helo deck.

[DarthMetool]

I think the only L2 tech on the Fal-II is the Arrow & CASE right?
I'd consider going full L1 tech & use a Sniper w/o CASE
I like the double helo deck.

A Sniper AP is 20 slots instead of the Arrow IV's 15.  If you stick in a Sniper, something else will need to
be removed to make room.  Perhaps downrating the large lasers to mediums.  That would free up 4 more
slots to go with that last free slot.

Or perhaps you could settle for replacing the Arrow IV with a Thumper AP.  Same weight and space with
no change anywhere else on the ship.  This would have to be requested as a variant build if you order from
the company, though.

[Alan Grant]

To my mind the only thing it might be lacking that someone at Battletech-Mercenaries might want is AMS.

Thinking of aerospace fighters lobbing Arrow IV missiles at this ship from a distance.

But that isn't a requirement. I'm just trying to think through all the angles. But honestly as-is, it's fulfills all my wants and needs. The challenge is getting others to agree.

But this is far from done and over, I'd love to see what others might come up with.

[Hellraiser]

A Sniper AP is 20 slots instead of the Arrow IV's 15........... 
Or perhaps you could settle for replacing the Arrow IV with a Thumper AP. 

Actually a Thumper was going to be my first suggestion.
I just saw all the ammo for the Arrow & Figured there was room for a harder hitting Sniper.
I don't have SUV construction memorized & forgot the way they do item slots.

In this case I'd say go Thumper & then you can save some of that ammo/CASE tonnage for more Armor.

[Alan Grant]

Darthmetool, I sent you a PM.

[Col Toda]

Keep the Arrow lV ADA ammo engages aerospace attack . Replace LRM&LTP with Advanced launcher which acts as both I think . Light AC2 w Precision ammo .  Light PPCs instead of large lasers , Put in 2 mech mortars in aft air burst rounds might be more useful than LRMs .  Just trying to get as much as possible with the tonnage allocated. The suggestion for AMS for this is very important , almost all vehicles are immobilized by missile fire . Laser AMS has the potential I think to eliminate the whole volley .

[Colt Ward]

Hellraiser, I would point out the Mammoth is specially modified- so deck plans are probably very different especially since it is supposed to give them to the water.

[gigobyte]

Is there a program that you created those in? SSW doesn't create large craft correctly or larger then 550 tons. I have played with MegaMekLab, but land vehicles don't go higher then 100 tons and there is no selection for naval craft.

I really hope there is a program, as doing the math sucks...

[DarthMetool]

Nope.  No program.  Pencil, paper and calculator.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

You might want to check the Mammoth again.  It only has 2 cargo sections and each is over 18KT.
I know this is contrary to the "fluff" of 5 decks at 7000 each.  But just going by stats on the sheet they are large enough.

The Mule has 3 decks, each between 2-3KT.  So limiting Frigates to 2.5K or less, which is what LG's example is, would be a good way to fit them in a single bay & could actually then move 3 of them at once.  Or keep it at 2 & have the 3rd pay as pure "cargo".

I suppose that means the deck arrangement can be easily altered. Collapsible partitions and such.

[HobbesHurlbut]

I suppose that means the deck arrangement can be easily altered. Collapsible partitions and such.

Hellraiser, I would point out the Mammoth is specially modified- so deck plans are probably very different especially since it is supposed to give them to the water.

As these  two have pointed out, the dropship tasked to ferry Rapier was modified specifically for the task. So there is a plausible reason not to keep to that 2,500 tons limit.

[maxcarrion]

Thread Necro

I don't have books with me, but very approximately I would go for

The Gladius Support Frigate
5/8 Submersible chassis (about 1000T including armour, call it 1300T including kitchens, comms, lifeboats and quarters)
12 light vehicle bays (600T)
Cargo Space (~600T)

The Gladius can easily support a dozen light combat vehicles that can be selected depending on the mission - one common load would be

6 Monsoon Conventional Fighters - these amphibious fighters can take off and land from the water so can operate from the gladius despite a lack of helipad
4 Marlin Bluewater superiority submersibles
2 Slick all purpose VTOL

Marlin http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=51447.0
Slick http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=51518.0
Monsoon http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=51514.0