Author Topic: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!  (Read 162690 times)

GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #450 on: 23 April 2017, 01:52:46 »
As Don has alluded to, the lack of minimum range is a somewhat noteworthy benefit of the UAC10. And this is coming from someone who absolutely despises the weapon because it jams on me every single friggin' game I use it in Ultra mode, often with nothing to show for it.

If you're building a unit that you expect might have to fend for itself up close, the UAC10 would be the better choice in that case.

Nightgaun7

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #451 on: 05 May 2017, 05:10:56 »
One other thing of note would be that UAC/10s are probably more XL Engine friendly than all those Torso-mounted GR designs out there, just sayin'...

Ammo explosions aren't exactly a point in the UAC's favor.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #452 on: 05 May 2017, 12:14:47 »
The point was you have all the crits of the gauss rifle that can explode while with a UAC/10 you end up with 1-3 crits that can explode if they have ammo.

Part of the reason I like the Gauss power down rule.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #453 on: 05 May 2017, 12:19:30 »
Ammo explosions aren't exactly a point in the UAC's favor.

All too true, but more than any ballistic weapon class UACs tend to chew through ammo at a high rate which somewhat mitigates the risk factor.  A UAC/10 has decent enough reach there's little reason not to be sending a single or double tap downrange a turn, unlike its larger cousin which often needs to wait for more choice shots until in the thick of it.
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Nightgaun7

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #454 on: 05 May 2017, 23:26:30 »
All too true, but more than any ballistic weapon class UACs tend to chew through ammo at a high rate which somewhat mitigates the risk factor.  A UAC/10 has decent enough reach there's little reason not to be sending a single or double tap downrange a turn, unlike its larger cousin which often needs to wait for more choice shots until in the thick of it.

Assuming they don't jam. Then you have a bunch of ammo and no way to get rid of it. Other than dumping, of course.
« Last Edit: 06 May 2017, 19:07:15 by Nightgaun7 »

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #455 on: 06 May 2017, 05:35:51 »
I'm not sure how dumping constitutes 'no way other than', given that we're talking about the explicit purpose of ammo dumping. It's kinda like calling a Thunder Hawk a horrible sniper because it has no way to damage someone at range, aside from the Gauss Rifles.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #456 on: 06 May 2017, 10:08:28 »
this conversation reminds me of the whitworth. someone will always defend it with a furious picking of nits, but who willingly puts one in their force if they have another option?


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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #457 on: 06 May 2017, 10:14:43 »
I will, gladly. Not that big a fan of most of the upgraded models, but the original sees a lot of use with my Marian forces to provide missile support to medium mech units, and the rocket version is a fun city mugger.
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Nightgaun7

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #458 on: 06 May 2017, 19:15:21 »
I'm not sure how dumping constitutes 'no way other than', given that we're talking about the explicit purpose of ammo dumping. It's kinda like calling a Thunder Hawk a horrible sniper because it has no way to damage someone at range, aside from the Gauss Rifles.

Well, since the other guy was talking about getting rid of it via firing it...

And dumping itself is pretty risky. You have to announce it the turn before, it removes the ammo from use in the turn you announce it, so no getting off a last shot before it goes, your unit can't run or jump, and ANY hit against the dumping unit on any rear location during the Weapon Attack or Physical Attack phases makes all the ammo you're dumping go boom. And you told them you were doing it last turn.

So yeah, dumping. Not great.

Caedis Animus

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #459 on: 07 May 2017, 13:09:03 »
You would imagine that the ammo would just cycle through the weapon without firing-at least in the case of cased munitions like ACs and MGs. Not sure why mech designers had to go to the convoluted idea of having all munitions ever coming out of every rear torso at once.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #460 on: 07 May 2017, 13:38:42 »
It could be where the ejection port is for spent casing/brass . . . or they could be caseless or something where its consumed, though I know that is in MaxTech areas . . .

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Empyrus

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #461 on: 07 May 2017, 14:37:47 »
Ammo is loaded via back (even when in limbs, per rule), so presumably it is quickest way to remove it all at once. I mean, one dumps ammo in the event of elevated heat or weak armor and you need to get rid of it all quickly. Also, relative safety: Ammo getting dumped from elsewhere than back would risk it getting hit and blowing up, 'Mechs usually do face the enemy rather than show their back to them.
Through-weapon probably isn't an option usually. In case of caseless ammo like missiles, there is no ejection port, and they need rear door or something anyway. Or if the weapon is damaged, you need an alternate way to remove ammo.

The lack of exact torso location (or location at all, or weapon affecting thigs) is presumably abstraction and simplification of rules. Very early rules for BT didn't include the option at all after all, so perhaps it was added back when things were "quick and dirty" (as writing went).

EDIT I wrote: (Caseless ammo for ACs happens only with caseless versions of ACs (not ammo itself unlikely in earlier editions of BT), and i think no canon design uses such at the moment.)
But it seems i forgot how things work at the moment. It seems when using TacOps rules, a player could designate ACs as using caseless ammo but this prevents alternate munition usage.
« Last Edit: 07 May 2017, 14:41:31 by Empyrus »

GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #462 on: 07 May 2017, 21:56:10 »
I've used Whitworths before, back when it was briefly thought the FWL fielded a small amount of them via trade with the DC in the 3025-ish era (not sure where this idea came from or how widely believed it was, mind you).

They are not bad Mechs. Not great, but they are acceptable. Essentially a slightly better Panther; an inexpensive way to get semi-mobile long range support on a team. There are formations I would willingly use them in, esp. if working alongside a WVR-6M. A GRF-1N would be better at the job, but it is 15 tons heavier and costs more BV to boot.

Honestly, the Whitworth is in a slightly better position overall than the stock YMN-6Y Yeoman... and I willingly field that thing from time to time too. It takes a lot for a Mech to be truly, "would not play this thing ever" level bad.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #463 on: 07 May 2017, 22:04:39 »
Best use I found was a Trio of Whitworths and a Single LRM Huncie Lance.

Come and get me.... 100 LRMs and 13 ML.... Sure I can jump away, but that Hunchie is made for fist muggin' you.

Pares very well with others.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #464 on: 07 May 2017, 22:13:00 »
In the pre-LosTech era, I think that if I was a Davion mechwarrior who lost his Dervish but managed to claim a salvaged WTH-1, I'd call it a fair trade at worst, maybe a slight upgrade.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #465 on: 07 May 2017, 23:29:43 »
In the pre-LosTech era, I think that if I was a Davion mechwarrior who lost his Dervish but managed to claim a salvaged WTH-1, I'd call it a fair trade at worst, maybe a slight upgrade.

Lower speed for a half ton of armor? That's maybe side-grade, but losing the power of 2 Inferno SRMs for single Medium is the down-grade.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #466 on: 08 May 2017, 05:43:10 »
A Dervish costs 5.3 million c-notes, a Whitworth 2.8 million. So if you have free access and the money for it you get nearly twice the number of Whitworths. Thats a good deal i think.
But both designs are rare within the FWL, while we have 3 factories for Trebuchets. I think we have a good LRM boat in the medium sector with one variant boosting 30 LRM per salvo (for 4.2 million) and the other one with good jumping capability (4.3 million). In later times we also have the Apollo - but i always prefer the Trebuchet.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #467 on: 08 May 2017, 08:54:39 »
Lower speed for a half ton of armor? That's maybe side-grade, but losing the power of 2 Inferno SRMs for single Medium is the down-grade.
They're both medium firesupport platforms.  I'll trade a pair of SRM-2s, with their ridiculous 2 full tons of ammo, for a single ML any day.  It does the firesupport job just as well as the Dervish.
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Don Lunardi

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #468 on: 08 May 2017, 09:56:13 »
Well on the matter of nits and pickings, there is really no perfect solutions when it comes down to ballistics.  Yes, a UAC mean packing an Ammo Bomb, and it may jam as stated.  OTOH, while a Gauss Rifle can be powered down, I would suggest that this doesn't happen that often in practice.  While there are a handful of designs with only one ton of ammo, most have two (or more even) which makes it more likely that they are going to still have it charged and firing away when the location holding it is breached by enemy fire.  No perfect solution either way, just a matter of picking your poison.

Never had strong feelings about the Whitworth one way or the other.  Kind of see it as a light Fire Support 'Mech where speed isn't a priority and perhaps Jump is useful.  For FWLM Cav formations, I would tend to go with a Trebuchet for the extra zoom, though I guess Davions do have Mr Paddle Hands to fill the same role.  While the copious SRM rounds does make it more explody, at least it does give you the option of stocking Standard AND Inferno rounds to offer increasing tactical flexibility while still never worrying about the launchers running dry in a fight.
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #469 on: 09 May 2017, 10:40:42 »
While we're discussing cavalry stuff, I have a tangential topic about a specific type of cavalry Mech. Namely, the Mad Cat and its ilk.

Obviously we do not have access to the original Mad Cat beyond maybe single-digits numbers salvage over time, at best. I'm not going to seriously explore that idea. Instead, I'm curious about its offshoots. Which ones exist, and which do we have? My preliminary research suggests...

Mad Cat. Mk II - Via IS General, obviously something we have. (Esp. since its main seller is now part of us)

Mad Cat III - Also via IS General and portions of the seller being part of us.

Mad Cat Mk. IV - Ditto.

Rakshasa - Unsure. I would think we have small amounts of them via open market (it shows up on the Mercenary MUL, Solaris entries, and other small sources) EDIT: and small amounts of salvage (end edit), but not enough to consider it a mainstay unit. Any insights?

Are there any other 'Mad Cat-likes' (of any weight class) we have that I've overlooked?
« Last Edit: 09 May 2017, 10:44:38 by GespenstM »

Empyrus

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #470 on: 09 May 2017, 10:57:41 »
Vulture IV is basically cheap version of Mad Cat IV, and available to everyone.

GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #471 on: 09 May 2017, 11:17:12 »
...Huh. You're right. I knew we had it, but I hadn't quite considered it a 'Mad Cat-like' until I though on it for a few minutes. It's at the extreme edge of what I'd think of as one, but it does count. Interesting point!

Empyrus

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #472 on: 09 May 2017, 11:37:21 »
Do remember the original Mad Dog was named as a slur to Clan Wolf, and it is based on the Timber Wolf (missiles, dual lasers, same legs). The Vulture IV is just the ultimate expression of this copying of the Timber Wolf or equivalent follow-up.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #473 on: 09 May 2017, 19:38:03 »
I allways figured that the Mad Cat Mk IV was the luxury model and the Vulture mk IV was the "economy" version
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #474 on: 09 May 2017, 21:00:19 »
Yeah, though its combat style is a bit different. I was more looking at the whole 'lasers plus missiles' thing. The Vulture Mk IV doesn't quite follow that as well as one would think.

EDIT: Long range missiles. And some lasers with real reach. The brawler configs with SRMs and close-up lasers aren't what I meant.
« Last Edit: 10 May 2017, 00:08:38 by GespenstM »

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #475 on: 10 May 2017, 07:41:11 »
I allways figured that the Mad Cat Mk IV was the luxury model and the Vulture mk IV was the "economy" version

The Mad Cat does have three more cup holders and rich Corinthian leather....
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #476 on: 10 May 2017, 14:08:33 »
The Mad Cat does have three more cup holders and rich Corinthian leather....

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #477 on: 10 May 2017, 15:46:31 »
They really should have Mays or Popeil as a SeaFox bloodname. Or whatever the merchant caste equivalent is. A trade name maybe?

Anyway, I was looking through the 3145 RAT's for Timber Wolf-alikes, and there isn't a whole lot that hasn't been mentioned. The only thing that caught my eye was the Archer 8M. It sort of reminds me of an Inner Sphere attempt at duplicating the Timber Wolf, without having any of the really fancy stuff that makes it possible. Sort of like a 5-ton-lighter Rakshasa. It has the twin LRM racks, and ER lasers for backup, but couldn't manage to fit multiple ER Larges so it only gets one. Plus, it can't manage the 5/8 speed and is stuck at 4/6. While the Rakshasa skimped on missiles so it could get the extra ER Large and the speed, the Archer 8M gave up on the speed to get bigger LRM racks with reasonable amounts of ammo.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #478 on: 10 May 2017, 15:57:22 »
They really should have Mays or Popeil as a SeaFox bloodname. Or whatever the merchant caste equivalent is. A trade name maybe?

I SUPPORT THIS IDEA WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #479 on: 10 May 2017, 21:05:49 »
Yeah... the ARC-8M fails on the speed aspect of things, but otherwise fits (and is a good Mech; I'm actually willing to seriously argue that it is superior to the ARC-4M).