'Mech of the Week: LN-XX Lu Wei Bing

[GreekFire]

Lu Wei Bing, from TRO3145: Capellan Confederation

High-mobility assaults are a somewhat unexploited niche for Spheroid 'Mechs. 4/6 assault are a dime a dozen, but 4/6 assaults also mounting jump jets? Much rarer. You've got a few old standy's such as the highly popular Davion assault, the Victor, or the upgraded Charger, a decent Kuritan skirmisher. The introduction of Improved Jump Jets would add a few more, although the system's huge weight demands would limit them to only a handful of designs. The Lu Wei Bing is an attempt to add some modern flavor to this high-mobility doctrine. Appearing in 3110, it builds on the Capellan legacy first started by the Yu Huang and acts as a decent foil to those plentiful Davion Victors. Whether or not it is successful in its attempt remains to be seen, and is something I'll touch upon in this write-up.

The Lu Wei Bing's name is an interesting starting point - trying to find a proper google translation for “Lu Wei Bing” gave me no results, and as someone who has a minimal grasp of mandarin it took a Chinese friend to finally put me on the right path. The Lǜ Wèibīng, or 绿衛兵 in traditional Chinese, was most likely named as a nod towards the Chinese Red Guards. As a political movement that existed in "our" mid-20th century, I won’t go into any details - the interested can easily find out more about them online. The Lu Wei Bing, “Green Guard”, is a bit of a play on that - one inspired by a fictional series of events that occurred in BattleTech's 21st century. It also fits in nicely with the Yù Huáng, the new Lu Wei Bing acting as a "guard" to the older Jade Emperor.

SPELL IT OUT

At the Lu Wei Bing's core is its massive 340-rated Light Engine. This engine, even if it weighs a massive 20.5 tons, is an "optimal" choice for a 4/6-moving 85-ton 'Mech. Combined with the four torso-mounted Jump Jets, the Lu Wei Bing has more free weight available to it than a Light Engine'd, 4/6/4 'Mech at any other tonnage. This slight optimization is further enhanced through the 16 tons of standard armor that protect the engine and Endo-Steel frame, laid out as:

Code: [Select]

         FRONT                REAR                INTERNAL
      .../ 9\...           .../**\...            .../ 3\...
     /26| 39 |26\         / 8| 12 | 8\          /18| 27 |18\
    (28). -- .(28)       (   |    |   )        (14). -- .(14)
       /  /\  \             /      \              /  /\  \
      /36.\/.36\           /        \            /18.\/.18\
The design could have seen a point of armor shifted from the rear center torso to the front, but it has solid protection and you’ll definitely get your BV’s worth out of it. The survivability goes up another notch thanks to an armored cockpit; the extra touch of protection against 10-point or double 5-hit point hits to the head can help prevent those fluke and rage-inducing deaths. Weapons are simple and straightforward. Two Light PPCs, mounted on the Left Arm. One MML/5 launcher, set in the Left Torso and fed by two tons of ammo. And the main gun: an LB 20-X Autocannon placed in the Right Arm/Torso with a monstrous four tons of ammo to draw from. All of the Lu Wei Bing's ammo is in the Right Torso, protected by CASE II, while an Angel ECM Suite sits centerline.

UNDER THE HOOD

The Lu Wei Bing isn’t a technologically groundbreaking machine as much as it brings a variety of proven technology together. Its chassis might be a new one, but the engine was most likely lifted straight off of the lines for another Tao product: the BattleMaster -4L. The Jump Jets can trace their lineage back to the Star League-era Crusader -3L, while its Mydron Devastator autocannon was first used on the Thunder -2L variant. The Ceres Arms LPPCs and Doombud MML launcher both come from highly reliable Capellan weapons manufacturers, while the Communications, Targeting, and Tracking systems are unquestionably proven models long-used on Vindicators of all stripes.

As a result, the Lu Wei Bing can’t be a ‘Mech that suffers from many supply shortages. Its quirk, “easy to maintain”, completely plays into this: these (mostly) older but reliable pieces of hardware should all be items most Capellan technicians are more than familiar with. Only the Angel ECM Suite and CASE II could cause potential difficulties, but Angel ECM’s prevalence within Capellan space makes me imagine that its reached levels of familiarity there near-unmatched anywhere else in the Sphere. The Lu Wei Bing strikes me as a 'Mech that could easily become one of the more common assaults in Capellan space, even if it might not have the same simplicity as the Emperor or Victor.

WHAT TO DO WITH IT

Ranged engagements are out of the question. The two Light PPCs give you the barest of mid-ranged firepower, while the MML/5 is, at best, a long range plinker. Your best, and to be frank, only option is to move into brawling range where you can bring your SRMs and LB-X to bear. This is where things get tricky, though. Close too much, especially when jumping, and your Light PPCs will be largely useless. Don’t close enough and you can’t bring your kicks to the fight. It’s an irksome situation, especially on a 4/6/4 Assault that wants to close and backstab as much as possible. You can drop the two Light PPCs for a punch when backstabbing - not a bad idea when a punch will strip the armor straight off of a head. Follow that up with some buckshot, and you’ve got a decent chance of critting something especially nasty. It still feels like a somewhat messy solution, though, and I'm not fond of the Light PPCs on this design. As for the MML/5, I'd forgo the ton of LRM ammo in favor of some Infernos or other utility munitions. Your goal is to close as quickly as possible, and you want ammo that will stay relevant for as much of the game as possible.

If the Lu Wei Bing should have one strength, it would be its survivability. It has heavy armor, a light engine, CASE II’d armor, good maneuverability and an armored cockpit - all things that should make it a remarkably tough assault ‘Mech. Is it really as tough as it seems, though? Well...not in my experience. It’s a bit strange, let me explain.

First off - the main gun and its ammo. The LB-X is an incredible boon. It’s what makes the Lu Wei Bing what it is; if you ever wanted an example of a ‘Mech built around a gun, this is it. See, the issue is what happens if the Right Arm is lost - a situation that will undeniably neuter the LWB. With that scenario leaving only two Light PPCs and a single MML/5 to the Lu Wei Bing, it is basically out of the fight. You can punch, yes. You can kick, sure. You can interdict with that ECM...but your threat bubble and damage-dealing days are over. Compare this with other LB 20-X AC-totting assaults and you can really see the sacrifices that were made on this design, all to heighten its speed and toughness.

This compounds into a second issue: what happens if the Right Torso pops. The Right Torso is a huge vulnerability. Huge. I can’t emphasize it enough. You have six tons of CASE II’d ammo in that torso, and since the Lu Wei Bing is a close-ranged brawler, chances are your armor is going to crumple before you burn through even half of it. Why is this an issue? Cascading crits. The biggest strength - and weakness - of CASE II is how it only deals one point of internal structure damage with every ammo explosion. On something like a Lu Wei Bing, this translates to even more chances to get your ammo get critted out, and a much higher chance of getting your pilot fried. In a certain twist of irony, the Lu Wei Bing is almost tailor-made for taking itself out. This makes me feel like the armored cockpit is a bit superficial. In all of my testing I saw countless Lu Wei Bings get knocked out of the fight through ammo explosions, and countless pilots get killed because of them. A cockpit crit is the least of your concerns.

Another warning: the Lu Wei Bing might love to backstab, but it certainly can't handle them. The RA/RT location for the LB-X prohibits its use for taking on enemies behind it, while the two Light PPCs won't be accurate or intimidating enough to deter the lightest of 'Mechs. This might not seem like much of a worry - after all, you should have other 'Mechs supporting it - but the Lu Wei Bing is built to be in the thick of things, and that means that it will almost invariably end up with an enemy behind it at least once or twice. With that said, the one-two punch offered by the LB-X is devastating if used correctly. Be somewhat conservative and you can get some good mileage out of it.

WHAT ELSE?

The Capellans have alternatives to the LWB, and they aren’t very hard to find. The Yu Huang -H9G is the first. Although its lines were demolished during the Jihad, they were rebuilt by 3105 - a scant 5 years before the LWB made its debut. It's entirely possible that Tao 'Mechworks designed the Lu Wei Bing to act as a replacement to the Yu Huang, only to find their efforts undercut by a surprise reboot of the Yu Huang line. Any comparison between the two comes down to survivability. The Yu Huang has better ranged firepower with its ERPPC and LRM/10, more close-ranged and back-up weaponry with the two Medium Lasers and single Medium Pulse, and a few more heat sinks to deal with the heat load. The Lu Wei Bing, though, has more defensive equipment: CASE II, Angel ECM and a Light Engine. 1-on-1 tests proved to be a race to see which ‘Mech could open up the other’s torsos or legs first; in both cases, the LB-X pellets quickly downed both ‘Mechs regardless of the engine type. The Yu Huang, however, could lose its LB-X and still bring some close-ranged firepower to bear - something the Lu Wei Bing was unable to do.

A second alternative could be the Victor -10L. The Victor has, once again, better ranged firepower, but also brings a similar brawling punch to the table. It is worse at critseeking, but has a Standard Engine and Stealth Armor to improve its battlefield longevity in other ways. To be honest, I feel like the Victor is the better and more versatile ‘Mech. It is more than 200 BV more expensive, though, so it's not necessarily a simple matter to field the Victor in all games. And of course, the Victor completely lacks the Lu Wei Bing's critseeking - the Capellans have an inordinate number of Gauss Rifle-totting ‘Mechs; the Lu Wei Bing can support and mesh with them in ways the Victor absolutely cannot.

Conflicts against the Davions might put the Lu Wei Bing against their own high-mobility assaults; notably, the Victor and Templar. The Victor -11D will want to play the ranged game, drawing things out at range for as long as possible before moving in with the RAC. As with all jumping fights, things will boil down to initiative once the two ‘Mechs engage in a brawl. Assuming no backstabs, though, I’d give the LWB the advantage because of its larger damage cluster and lack of a jam chance on its primary gun. The Templar would be a nasty customer, though. The Templar-OC is a particularly dangerous beast for the LWB to face, while the Templar-OA can and will be able to use its greater range and accuracy to very deadly effect. Be careful.

The Mariks...don’t have many high-mobility assault competitors. Their Trebaruna -XJ is definitely the most worrying of any possible matchups, able to deal heavy damage while kiting you at nearly any range. It's tougher and more durable as well, making it a true threat for Lu Wei Bing pilots. Marik heavies will be likelier opponents, with the Anzu, Tempest and Thunderbolt all being likely targets. Their lack of assault-level protection and an over-reliance on XL/Light Engines makes them more vulnerable and more easily dispatched, though, so don’t be afraid of closing with them and bringing the pain.

The Republic of the Sphere don’t have many similar units either. Their own brand of Trebaruna is a ranged sniper (close ASAP, or get the drop on it if possible), and they have a couple of ClanTech options that might be a bit unsettling to deal with. The Peacekeeper is a possibility, but its exorbitant BV cost does, in my experience, heavily limit its use on the tabletop. Once again, look out for heavies. The Gallant, Marauder -9W2 and Rifleman IIC 7/8 are all possible match-ups. Play it smart, and stick with your lancemates for enough combined firepower to take any ClanTech units down quickly.

CONCLUSION

The Lu Wei Bing is tough, and yet isn't. It has a large threat profile, and yet doesn't. I feel like this is a BattleMech that will polarize players based on their experiences with it; some might have lost their LB-X quickly or suffered from the torso-bomb, setting them against it. Others might have had positive experiences with the CASE II or damage distribution, making them love the design. In any case, it's a 'Mech should theoretically work fantastically with Tian-Zongs, Pillagers, Cataphracts and other ranged snipers - as long as the numbers work in your favor.

~ ~ ~

Master Unit List: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=lu+wei+bing
Iron Wind Metals: http://ironwindmetals.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=9329

[mikecj]

Thank you, some interesting points to consider

[The Eagle]

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't mention the obvious parentage of the LWB.  It's not a new 'Mech, it's a Xin Sheng Victor the same way that the Sha Yu is a Xin Sheng Raven and the Lao Hu is a Xin Sheng Thunder.  The physical similarity is more than striking, and even the weapon placement is an exact match for the old VTR-9B: AC/20 in the right arm, two medium lasers/LPPCs in the left arm, and an SRM-4/MML-5 in the left torso.  I cannot fault your analysis in any way, shape, or form, but I do feel the article would have benefited from at least mentioning the relationship.

[GreekFire]

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't mention the obvious parentage of the LWB.  It's not a new 'Mech, it's a Xin Sheng Victor the same way that the Sha Yu is a Xin Sheng Raven and the Lao Hu is a Xin Sheng Thunder.  The physical similarity is more than striking, and even the weapon placement is an exact match for the old VTR-9B: AC/20 in the right arm, two medium lasers/LPPCs in the left arm, and an SRM-4/MML-5 in the left torso.  I cannot fault your analysis in any way, shape, or form, but I do feel the article would have benefited from at least mentioning the relationship.

Hah...I actually left that out on purpose. Why? Alex Knight, the Lu Wei Bing's designer, has come out and said that it was his intent that the LWB was a descendant of the Yu Huang, and not the Victor. Of course, the art suggests otherwise, while the weapons payload does appear to be a better fit for the Victor (although it could be a watered-down/streamlined take on the Yu Huang as well). It could be possible that, in universe, the LWB was expressly designed to draw on features of both.

That'll be why you might hear people say things like the LWB is "accidentally the best victor".

[Nahuris]

Another option with that MML is to use Smoke, instead of LRMs to cover your approach. With the Light PPC's providing some damage, but not enough to make you a prime ranged target, and the smoke making you more difficult to hit, you can sometimes get people choosing other targets, until you are right on top of them.
In addition, in the era of combined arms being more common, this mech also gets some advantages.... although I really wish they would make a variant with Stealth Armor.

Nahuris

[Scotty]

The negative consequences of using PPCs under their minimum ranges are significantly overblown.  At 2 hexes, well within short range for every other weapon on the 'Mech, you're looking at a +2 to hit with them.  That's medium range, where a good number of shots get taken anyway.  At 1 hex, it's closer to long range mods, but that's what secondary targets are for.  Very rare is the situation where you can't bring guns to bear on a target 1 hex away, but can't bring the Light PPCs to bear on a target more distant and suffering only the +1 for secondary targets.

The other alternative is to see about swapping in a Snubbie, but then you lose what little long range punch was worth mentioning in the first place.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

This is not a mech that impresses me.  Of course, that's probably because I'm comparing it to the Lyran mechs I normally play with, and we've got LB-20Xs coming out our ears.

[Scotty]

I feel like this 'Mech would gain significantly with a Stealth Armor variant, leaving everything else the same.  Two LPPCs plus Stealth at range and while closing for heat, drop it when you get close and unload.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't mention the obvious parentage of the LWB.  It's not a new 'Mech, it's a Xin Sheng Victor the same way that the Sha Yu is a Xin Sheng Raven and the Lao Hu is a Xin Sheng Thunder.  The physical similarity is more than striking, and even the weapon placement is an exact match for the old VTR-9B: AC/20 in the right arm, two medium lasers/LPPCs in the left arm, and an SRM-4/MML-5 in the left torso.  I cannot fault your analysis in any way, shape, or form, but I do feel the article would have benefited from at least mentioning the relationship.

Save as the article notes, by mounting a LB-20X they get all the vulnerabilities of a Victor's arm mount, without the added arc of fire for that risk.  IIRC it's 11 crits?  Rules for split section weapons like this are you have to use the most restrictive arc.  IOW the same as a torso mounted cannon.  I generally prefer to either squeeze the cannon into a side, or side and center torso mounting, or go for an Ultra/20 which can squeeze entirely into an arm.

[Colt Ward]

No variants?

Never looked at this too much except when I heard it was a Yu Huang replacement- which made me sad.  Then we found out the Yu Huang was back, no sad.  I think the three plinking token long range weapons are a mistake.  The MML at least can be waved away as having use from alternate munitions.  2 LPPC on this mech IMO ask for a ERLL and you have another ton for something . . . ERML, more ammo for the MML, or who knows.

Stealth is a interesting option, and it would be interesting to see a 'elite' or command version with it.

I think we could have done with another 'Capellan' signature weapon for a variant- the plasma rifle.  Melt that Republic and FedSuns BA and get a bit more long ranged firepower.

[Kidd]

Ah, the Lu Wei Bing. Excellent choice of name with a long history, heh, and the correct shade of green for Liao as it were - 'lu', dark or leaf green, as opposed to 'qing', the more generic word for green but also lighter green in shade.

Unfortunately for its designer's original intent I think its pretty cemented in our heads as a Xin Sheng Victor. The LBX/20 has a restricted arc of fire, true, but its a design compromise forced by the light fusion engine. While I think the LBX is lovely I have to agree the MML5 appears superfluous; better to have mounted an SRM4 or LRM5 and a pair of ERMLs or even PPC Capacitors.

[SteelRaven]

Very straight forward design, point towards enemy and fire. I'll have to agree the MML 5 is a little lack luster

Hah...I actually left that out on purpose. Why? Alex Knight, the Lu Wei Bing's designer, has come out and said that it was his intent that the LWB was a descendant of the Yu Huang, and not the Victor. Of course, the art suggests otherwise, while the weapons payload does appear to be a better fit for the Victor (although it could be a watered-down/streamlined take on the Yu Huang as well). It could be possible that, in universe, the LWB was expressly designed to draw on features of both.

That'll be why you might hear people say things like the LWB is "accidentally the best victor".

I remember Alex Knight posting that. I was a bit surprised to read that but for all I know, the Yu Huang was original meant to look more like the Victor before Frank Vohwinkel decide to model it after the nondescript silhouette of the Record sheets.

Regardless, the Lu Wei Bing joins the Yu Huang, Thunder, Victor, Banshee 3Q and Charger 1A5 in a long line of fast moving AC/20 caring CapCon mechs.

[GreekFire]

The negative consequences of using PPCs under their minimum ranges are significantly overblown.  At 2 hexes, well within short range for every other weapon on the 'Mech, you're looking at a +2 to hit with them.  That's medium range, where a good number of shots get taken anyway.  At 1 hex, it's closer to long range mods, but that's what secondary targets are for.  Very rare is the situation where you can't bring guns to bear on a target 1 hex away, but can't bring the Light PPCs to bear on a target more distant and suffering only the +1 for secondary targets.

I disagree. The ability of a lance to focus fire on a single target is invaluable to any force, and with a brawling 'Mech like the LWB, I feel like it's essential. In my opinion, any good high-mobility brawler should be able to bring all of its firepower to bear on a single chosen target every turn, especially since it will likely be backstabbing its target or attacking it from a favorable angle. This goes double if the high-mobility brawler is jumping; your fire will already be more inaccurate, so you want to avoid secondary target modifiers as much as possible so that your base 8+ doesn't turn into a 9+ for your secondary weapons.

Of course, your opinion might and can differ but I really feel like there are better options for secondary weapons to go along with the LB-X. What if you lose your Right Torso and a target gets up in your face? Your only weapons left will be the inaccurate LPPCs or your physical attack...not really a good prospect in my opinion.

[Scotty]

If you've lost your right torso you've taken two engine hits and lost over half of your firepower.  I'd start withdrawing regardless of who's up in my face, and I wager so would any pilot not engaged in a pick-up game deathmatch. ;)

[Colt Ward]

Except at 4/6/4 its not really going to be able to avoid the pursuit forces sent after such a cripple.  And it will have trouble hitting those pursuit forces hard enough to discourage them getting in to bring it down.

[GreekFire]

This is not a mech that impresses me.  Of course, that's probably because I'm comparing it to the Lyran mechs I normally play with, and we've got LB-20Xs coming out our ears.

Interestingly enough, the LWB is extremely similar to the much lighter Hunchback -6S. Much different levels of survivability and quite different speeds, but the punch remains practically the same.

As for all of the comments suggesting Stealth: the Lu Wei Bing is extremely crit-packed. There's no free weight left, and I suspect the armored cockpit was a result of having an extra free ton left with no crits to spend it on. Going the Stealth route would require major structural changes on the 'Mech, I'll leave the actual details down to any of you 'Mech designers.

If you've lost your right torso you've taken two engine hits and lost over half of your firepower.  I'd start withdrawing regardless of who's up in my face, and I wager so would any pilot not engaged in a pick-up game deathmatch. ;)

True enough, but the same applies if it loses its Right Arm or suffers a floating TAC. Its over-dependence on the LB-X and lack of other good brawling back-up options hurt it in the very environment where it is made to work the best. Because of that, its durability and role as an in-your-face priority distraction isn't worth nearly as much as with other comparable 'Mechs. And, to me, its inability to accurately use the LPPCs on a primary target at short range plays a part in that.

[Scotty]

I know here on the forums we like to assume that everything is a duel and pick-up deathmatches are the order of the day, but in an in-character engagement, if you cripple a 'Mech such that it's withdrawing and breaking contact, you don't keep shooting at it while its buddies take free shots at you.  Even if there are facilities that can repair it to working order within a timeframe that will contribute to the campaign it's going to be out of the fight for days if not weeks.

Regarding a hypothetical Stealth version, you don't actually need to find crits for an ECM unit - it already has one.  Endo-Steel is the more prickly issue, though I note with some amusement that you can drop Endo entirely if you swap the Light PPCs down to ER Medium Lasers, which would if I'm not mistaken alleviate a number of your other concerns with the design. :D

I still think that the Light PPC issue is overblown on most 'Mechs, and the same here.  The short range on the LB-20X is 4 hexes, not 1.  Getting to a range of 3 hexes means short range on all weapons, with a measly +1 penalty on the PPCs to hit.  You lack the hand and lower arm actuator on the right arm, so punching isn't a great idea anyway.  You lose kicking, for sure, but I generally consider kicking an optional weapon, not a necessary one.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Interestingly enough, the LWB is extremely similar to the much lighter Hunchback -6S. Much different levels of survivability and quite different speeds, but the punch remains practically the same.

While I love that mech, I was thinking more along the lines of the Hauptmann, Highlander 734, or Emperor 6S.

[GreekFire]

Regarding a hypothetical Stealth version, you don't actually need to find crits for an ECM unit - it already has one.  Endo-Steel is the more prickly issue, though I note with some amusement that you can drop Endo entirely if you swap the Light PPCs down to ER Medium Lasers, which would if I'm not mistaken alleviate a number of your other concerns with the design. :D

Hmm...Stealth armor instead of Endo-Steel, ER Mediums instead of the LPPCs...find a way to add TSM and you'll have a decent Assault-class take on the Thunder -2L.

I still think that the Light PPC issue is overblown on most 'Mechs, and the same here.  The short range on the LB-20X is 4 hexes, not 1.  Getting to a range of 3 hexes means short range on all weapons, with a measly +1 penalty on the PPCs to hit.  You lack the hand and lower arm actuator on the right arm, so punching isn't a great idea anyway.  You lose kicking, for sure, but I generally consider kicking an optional weapon, not a necessary one.

Well, I think a left-handed punch can be handy for the 9 points of damage that it deals. I didn't notice it at first and initially put more stock into kicking, but the 1/6 chance to strip all of the armor from a head location on a successful hit is a bit more interesting to me than two possibly just as inaccurate LPPC shots.

In any case, I think we're dancing around in circles here. We have different expectations from 'Mechs like it, and that's completely fine.  O0
Have you given it a spin? I'm always interested in hearing after-action reports on 'Mechs covered in these write-ups.

[Scotty]

I have not, actually.  I really should see if the local Capellan players are interested in taking it out for a spin up against my League units.  On the face of it, it's probably going to be disadvantaged against my preferred tactics of light and fast cavalry.  It has its pick of targets when hunting Assault 'Mechs, but things that can keep the range open are going to hurt it.

[Colt Ward]

Actually Scotty . . . in a campaign environment it losing that big gun and having to retreat leaves it at big risk IMO.  While you may not send light or medium flanker/skirmishers after a cripple trying to withdraw I know quite a few campaign players who would . . . to remove it from the board (headshots and CT hits when it is down, depends on attitutdes) or to try to salvage it if they win the field.  Also by sending such lighter units around the edge of the fight I distract the commander into having to consider protecting their rear, protecting a cripple, or just letting me in the backfield.

Most commanders are sensative to units withdrawing falling when outside of supporting units.  They will split fire and/or move something back to spread the umbrella of fire to give some cover.  I have seen plenty of commanders lose a battle when their favorite 'precious' gets badly damaged in a campaign and they move to save it rather than win the battle.

[Alexander Knight]

The twin LPPCs were used to replace the single ER PPC on the Yu Huang.  Same total damage, 1 less ton.  The similarity to the Victor never even registered with me.  I made the deliberate choice to not include any bleeding-edge technology (even an XL), to cement the idea of an easy-to-maintain, relatively cheap to produce assault.  Not the "quarterback" of the team, more like one of the "linesmen".

[GreekFire]

The twin LPPCs were used to replace the single ER PPC on the Yu Huang.  Same total damage, 1 less ton.  The similarity to the Victor never even registered with me.  I made the deliberate choice to not include any bleeding-edge technology (even an XL), to cement the idea of an easy-to-maintain, relatively cheap to produce assault.  Not the "quarterback" of the team, more like one of the "linesmen".

Something that I feel it accomplishes well. I'd hesitate to call it a Capellan Hatamoto, since it's a step above the bare-bones level of complexity the Hatamoto espouses, but it's certainly a mass produced 'Mech of its own. Maybe it'd be fairer to compare it to the older, non-X Zeuses.

Thanks for chiming in!

[Alexander Knight]

No problem.  The armored cockpit / ammo issue also ties back to a Battletech truism.  "Life is cheap, BattleMechs aren't."  Sure you may have to mop the brain matter out of the cockpit before dropping a new pilot in...but at least you've still got the 'mech.  >:D

[marauder648]

When I saw this Mech I thought "That's a Victor"  The head, the weapons layout, it just goes "I'mma Victor!" and it seems like an interesting mech, not used one myself. Great article though Greek Fire!

[Scotty]

The possibility for cascading ammunition detonations is certainly very real.  If anything, CASE II makes it worse by not destroying the torso, and potentially setting off more ammo than would have gone up without it.  Six tons of ammo in one section is asking for trouble.

[iamfanboy]

I'm not going to mince words here:

In Alpha Strike, this unit isn't good. At least it's not one I'D take.

Many factors on it are solid: it has a decent movement, its defenses are A/S 9/5, AECM is double ECM, and ARM allows it to ignore the first crit roll against it (extending the life of that S5 nicely). CASEII feeds into that by completely ignoring ammo hits instead of just dealing 1 extra damage, but...

Its offenses are the letdown.

At S3/M3/L2, it has the same offense as many Medium 'Mechs, and something this heavy should be dealing at least 4 at some range. Basically, 3 is the absolute rock-bottom one should accept in a damage-dealing unit, and definitely not on a unit that costs 46 points!

The one upside to this is that is offenses are so marginal for its size that it might be ignored in favor of more threatening units, only for your opponent to find cracking its rock-solid defenses to be hard enough that it finishes them off. In theory.


But compare the Yu Huang H9G. For the same PV you get a much improved S4/M4/L2 OV1 (the OV matters because in shallow water you can use it all day AND get a defensive bonus!), has the same movement profile, and only loses on 1 Structure. In a straight-up fight, the Yu Huang would pound the Lu Wei Bing to bits - in three shots, the LWB has barely broken the YH's skin, and the YH has killed the LWB completely.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Ah, the Victor's fat Capellan cousin.  Aside from being damn-near identical in art and layout, they do the same thing the same way, the LWB just has slightly more ability to pretend it can fight back at range.

[mbear]

Hah...I actually left that out on purpose. Why? Alex Knight, the Lu Wei Bing's designer, has come out and said that it was his intent that the LWB was a descendant of the Yu Huang, and not the Victor. Of course, the art suggests otherwise, while the weapons payload does appear to be a better fit for the Victor (although it could be a watered-down/streamlined take on the Yu Huang as well). It could be possible that, in universe, the LWB was expressly designed to draw on features of both.

That'll be why you might hear people say things like the LWB is "accidentally the best victor".

I can't wait for my AFFS unit to capture some of these and refit them with MPLs instead of the LPPCs.

[nckestrel]

I'm not going to mince words here:

In Alpha Strike, this unit isn't good. At least it's not one I'D take.

Alpha Strike conversion really punishes LB 20-X units :(.

[sadlerbw]

I think the most interesting thing I've learned is that this was NOT supposed to be inspired by the Victor! Funny how stats can evolve from one place, but the art took it somewhere else! Actually, I liked the visuals enough to buy one of the minis, even though I'm not totally in love with the mech its self. My biggest problem are the light PPCs. Personally, I hate light PPC's. I rarely have good results with them, and would rather have just about anything else mounted. At range, with the MML5 and the light PPC's, it basically feels like I'm piloting a really slow Ghost. Not that I hit much at range, as I'm usually jumping wildly to keep my mods high until I can close with the big 20.

My other problem with this mech is that it carries not one, but two weapons that require it to carry too much ammo in order to take advantage of them. Both the LBX and the MML (because it is just a single MML5) require you to bring more ammo than you are ever likely to use in a single encounter, so you are basically walking around with a giant bomb waiting to end your mech that you spent BV to put there. All ammo is dangerous, but when you have SIX crit slots worth in the same side torso, and you might manage to make it through two of them, that is a real danger. I think the LBX could get away with three tons instead of four, and the MML would have been fine with two half-ton bins. That is two tons that could have gone to turning the light PPC'c back into a single PPC. Or, you can drop the light PPCs for some form of medium lasers, keep the two tons of MML ammo and enlarge or add another MML to help chew through that ammo. Heck, just swap out the LBX for an Ultra and that would help with the ammo situation!

I don't think the Lu Wei Bing is a bad mech, just that it is a couple small steps from being much better than it is now. This is the kind of design that makes me itch to play a campaign where you can customize your mech because I know it would take so little to see a big improvement. This guy and the Mortis both are mechs I want to love, but every time I play them, they just turn out a little underwhelming because of small things. Actually come to think of it, if these two mechs could arrange a trade where the Lu gets the Heavy PPC and extra MML from the Mortis, and the Mortis gets the LBX-20, I think that would would be just about perfect!

[Colt Ward]

Well, the CASE II makes the ammo less dangerous to the mech- but more to the pilot.  I think it does need the 4 tons for the 20 shots, especially for the mix of slug and shotgun.

Now that you mention it, I think a Mortis makes a great companion for a close assault lance.

[Nahuris]

I know here on the forums we like to assume that everything is a duel and pick-up deathmatches are the order of the day, but in an in-character engagement, if you cripple a 'Mech such that it's withdrawing and breaking contact, you don't keep shooting at it while its buddies take free shots at you.  Even if there are facilities that can repair it to working order within a timeframe that will contribute to the campaign it's going to be out of the fight for days if not weeks.

Regarding a hypothetical Stealth version, you don't actually need to find crits for an ECM unit - it already has one.  Endo-Steel is the more prickly issue, though I note with some amusement that you can drop Endo entirely if you swap the Light PPCs down to ER Medium Lasers, which would if I'm not mistaken alleviate a number of your other concerns with the design. :D

I still think that the Light PPC issue is overblown on most 'Mechs, and the same here.  The short range on the LB-20X is 4 hexes, not 1.  Getting to a range of 3 hexes means short range on all weapons, with a measly +1 penalty on the PPCs to hit.  You lack the hand and lower arm actuator on the right arm, so punching isn't a great idea anyway.  You lose kicking, for sure, but I generally consider kicking an optional weapon, not a necessary one.

+1

Also, on the earlier comment about shooting at withdrawing units ... as a combat veteran, I have to second that -- in that once a unit is withdrawing, I am shooting at other units, I'm there to win the objective, not build a body count.  On the table, we throw units to the death with no real acknowledgement of morale ---- with the rules for forced withdrawal being a pale imitation of how it should be. And face it, the fact that we need RULES, and that they are named FORCED Withdrawal, answers a lot of how we play, anyways.

As for the LWB.... I actually see a HUGE number of reasons for why it is designed the way that it is. In Liao thinking, the MML is an awesome weapon. Able to drop Thunder munitions, smoke, inferno, etc..... it's as versatile as an omni, for the most part. Light PPCs? They are the same range as the PPC on the Vindicator, and can be paired up with Vindicator 3Lr's with their SnPPC's to provide supported fire for each other, and can be used to provide covering fire on a retreat. Yes, ER mediums would work, if you don't mind losing 180 meters of range (which is another full turn of running towards an opponent --- one extra turn you are taking damage, but can't do much about it), and yeah, the ER Large would work...if you want just one ranged weapon, besides the light missiles.... and if critted, there goes your range fire......

If we go by math formula, yeah, there are things that can be better... but the last time I checked, this wasn't Algebratech: the Board Game of Numbers Combat.
Math formula are great, as there are no variables that change much of it ----- 2+2 doesn't total 5, if the math is done on a foggy day. No battle every plays out the same way -- I have had battles where having ERmediums instead of Light PPC's hurt me ..... I have had games where 35 ton Blades have killed Atlas AS7-Ks --- because my Blade got boxed in, and I decided I may as well go out in a blaze of glory... instead, I hit with all 6 shots from my rotary 5, 3 in the CT, and 3 in the head. And suddenly, the whole battle changed.... I was no longer on the retreat, instead, my opponent was trying to converge his forces that were now scattered, with nothing but tanks to cover a flank, now that the Atlas was down.......
You can't control everything, so the best option is to try and plan for as many possibilities as you can.
Those Light PPC's give you range, and solid 5 point hits... they compliment the MML if you are using LRM ammo, but also hold their own as decent weapons.

When I look at a LWB, and I have yet to field one, but now plan to ---- I see a mech that can take advantage of the full range of missile ammo available - everything from semi-guided, to thunders, to swarms, and even smoke..... along with infernos, if needed. In a pinch, you can even load up tear gas missiles, and use this as crowd control, if nothing else is available. On the Battlefield, It is a brawler, looking to get in on people... but it can provide some support and cover for it's buddies, and have enough armor that if it can pull your attention off of the fire support units, or any of the large number of lighter Vindicators and Ravens, as well as Raven II's.. so much the better.

And as always, with Liao, it's a team player --- it's a close in ECM interdiction unit. If you are fighting someone that relies on electronics to boost their military, this is a mech you don't want close...... meaning it can not only herd other mechs around, but even if you can't catch a fast C3 spotter, you can probably tap it with a couple of Light PPC hits, and make it not want to stay close for long..... lots of options, and no heavy reliance on just one tactic.

Nahuris

[Kidd]

Oh, its quite clear the Lu Wei Bing plays to the Liao style, we can see that. Its just that some of us don't play Liao, so within that context we'd fit out the LWB in other ways :)

And on a side note I am 1 of the players who would shoot a withdrawing Mech in that lovely exposed back, whether for salvage or because the mission objective demands a certain number of kills or simply out of ennui, especially if the bugger had taken out 1 of my key Mechs. Usually I detach a VTOL or hover to chase it down and shoot it full of SRMs.

[Colt Ward]

+1

Also, on the earlier comment about shooting at withdrawing units ... as a combat veteran, I have to second that -- in that once a unit is withdrawing, I am shooting at other units, I'm there to win the objective, not build a body count.  On the table, we throw units to the death with no real acknowledgement of morale ---- with the rules for forced withdrawal being a pale imitation of how it should be. And face it, the fact that we need RULES, and that they are named FORCED Withdrawal, answers a lot of how we play, anyways.

Nahuris

Nahuris, I have played the competitive campaign servers- and if the mech is enough of a monster a damaged unit is hunted as it tries to retreat off the map because when you weaken that monster you want to kill it so it is not available in future campaign play.  A LB-20X unit is usually something folks do not let escape because of the big hit or lots of dings.  Sure you keep to the objective but if you have the chance to remove something like the LWB off the board you do it because that makes the long term objective of the campaign easier if you can do it . . . such a kill could be considered a strategic victory and worth it even if you only pull a marginal/minor tactical victory.  I am not going to lose my own units or risk severe damage, but if I have the opportunity to finish a cripple which will lead to overall campaign victory it gets done.

And while most of the discussions trying to defend the LWB are talking about duels and last mech standing pick ups, most of the comments discussing its vulnerability to mission kill since the LB-20X has crits in the arm & torso which with weak secondary weapons makes it less than most medium mechs which are not specific to what the defenders are saying.  Point is, that LB-20X gets crit and the mech has very little other use which then leaves you with a cripple to guard or try to flee off the board before it gets knocked out.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And on a side note I am 1 of the players who would shoot a withdrawing Mech in that lovely exposed back, whether for salvage or because the mission objective demands a certain number of kills or simply out of ennui, especially if the bugger had taken out 1 of my key Mechs. Usually I detach a VTOL or hover to chase it down and shoot it full of SRMs.

Yeah, same goes for the merc campaign I'm in.  Every enemy mech that retreats off the board is less salvage for us.  A withdrawing Assault Mech is a prime target.

[Rage]

Ah, the Victor's fat Capellan cousin.  Aside from being damn-near identical in art and layout, they do the same thing the same way, the LWB just has slightly more ability to pretend it can fight back at range.

Silly Davionista, they're both Capellan to begin with :P

[Colt Ward]

Ogre, its not even the salvage- that is just gravy.  Its about denying that asset further along in the campaign or at least making it more expensive or take longer to repair.

Then again I set up my campaigns with fixed forces on each side so if I can kill or damage my way through what I face while having a easier/shorter repair cycle then I can outfield the opposing force.  I do have triggers for 'reinforcements' if the opposition gets hammered too badly- opposing player shoves them way too far into the trap, bad luck on crits, too many forces get caught isolated,etc.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ogre, its not even the salvage- that is just gravy.  Its about denying that asset further along in the campaign or at least making it more expensive or take longer to repair.

Hey, it's a merc campaign.  We regard everything on the battlefield as rightfully ours and hate it when it tries to get away.

[Don Lunardi]

When I saw this Mech I thought "That's a Victor"  The head, the weapons layout, it just goes "I'mma Victor!" and it seems like an interesting mech, not used one myself. Great article though Greek Fire!

It seems like whoever did the artwork had the same thought, as did I as a long-time Victor aficionado ^-^

[The Eagle]

And it would also appear that we were all mistaken...which seems odd.

[Alexander Knight]

Blame it on the fact that the Yu Huang is very Victor-ish to start with.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Silly Davionista, they're both Capellan to begin with :P

Ah, Liao revisionist history at its finest.  An old Terran Hegemony design that was sold to other SL member-states post-Reunification War and has been built in 3 Successor States is "Capellan to begin with". ;D

[Alexander Knight]

Ah, Liao revisionist history at its finest.  An old Terran Hegemony design that was sold to other SL member-states post-Reunification War and has been built in 3 Successor States is "Capellan to begin with". ;D

To be more accurate:  The VTR was first built by HildCo Interplanetary.  That being a Capellan company.  House Davion liked it so much they started making their own on Quentin, which was then taken from them by Kurita, forcing Davion to buy VTRs from St. Ives (still Capellan) until the Civil War era when they finally got a VTR plant of their own again.

[Colt Ward]

They also had them made on Styk of the Sarna March . . . and then Styk of the Styk Commonality had a exclusive sale deal with Victor.

[Nahuris]

Nahuris, I have played the competitive campaign servers- and if the mech is enough of a monster a damaged unit is hunted as it tries to retreat off the map because when you weaken that monster you want to kill it so it is not available in future campaign play.  A LB-20X unit is usually something folks do not let escape because of the big hit or lots of dings.  Sure you keep to the objective but if you have the chance to remove something like the LWB off the board you do it because that makes the long term objective of the campaign easier if you can do it . . . such a kill could be considered a strategic victory and worth it even if you only pull a marginal/minor tactical victory.  I am not going to lose my own units or risk severe damage, but if I have the opportunity to finish a cripple which will lead to overall campaign victory it gets done.

And while most of the discussions trying to defend the LWB are talking about duels and last mech standing pick ups, most of the comments discussing its vulnerability to mission kill since the LB-20X has crits in the arm & torso which with weak secondary weapons makes it less than most medium mechs which are not specific to what the defenders are saying.  Point is, that LB-20X gets crit and the mech has very little other use which then leaves you with a cripple to guard or try to flee off the board before it gets knocked out.

I understand, except when your opponent is the invader ... then, every damaged unit is sucking up more repair and support parts, and more personal to bring back to the battle... but I do see it that way too.
I just get kind of tired of meat grinder games, which seem to happen way too often......

Nahuris

[The Eagle]

The Victor and the Atlas were also built on Carver V back in the day, first for the Hegemony, then the Capellans, and then the Free Worlds.  And then the Cappies nuked it because they're sore losers.

[Arkansas Warrior]

To be more accurate:  The VTR was first built by HildCo Interplanetary.  That being a Capellan company.  House Davion liked it so much they started making their own on Quentin, which was then taken from them by Kurita, forcing Davion to buy VTRs from St. Ives (still Capellan) until the Civil War era when they finally got a VTR plant of their own again.

What I said was accurate.  The Victor was first built for the Terran Hegemony in 2510, and only began to be offered to other member states after the Reunification War.  House Davion picked up their Victor production from the former Hegemony plant on Quentin that they acquired in the mad scramble following the fall of the Star League.

[Alexander Knight]

Doesn't change the fact that 4 of the 5 initial VTR plants were in Capellan-controlled space.  :)

[Rage]

They also had them made on Styk of the Sarna March . . . and then Styk of the Styk Commonality had a exclusive sale deal with Victor.

The factory on Styk was destroyed during the Fourth War, and only recently started building Victors (and Crusaders) after being rebuilt.

[Colt Ward]

'Recently' is a relative thing . . . they were being built by '57, probably before the Clan Invasion . . . when we are talking about the LWB it will have been 20-30 years if the factory was not re-purposed after the Jihad.  I do not have ObR:CapCon so I could not really say . . .

[Liam's Ghost]

So I'm imagining a mixed lance of two Tian Zhongs and two Lu Wei Bings. It makes me smile.

[mbear]

So I'm imagining a mixed lance of two Tian Zhongs and two Lu Wei Bings. It makes me smile.

That would be a PITA to deal with.

[Deadborder]

So I'm imagining a mixed lance of two Tian Zhongs and two Lu Wei Bings. It makes me smile.

Which Zong variant?

[mbear]

For giggles I recently tried refitting a CGR-1A5 Charger with upgrades. If you don't remember, this is the Charger that the CCAF uses with the smaller engine, AC/20, SRMs, Medium Lasers, and more armor.

Swapped out the AC/20 for an LB 20-X, and the SRMs for MMLs, when I realized this sounded familiar. Remembered the Lu Wei Bing.

So even though Alex K. didn't know it, the CGR-1A5 may be a distant relative of the LN-XX. Good job Alex! You connected the Succession Wars with the Dark Age.

[Empyrus]

Cappies do like AC/20s. The UrbanMech, Charger, Thunder, Victor, Yu Huang, Lao Hu, Lu Wei Bing... i'm sure there are others.

EDIT Also Hetzers, Hunchbacks (Liaos like them IIRC, though they don't make them) and Predator Tank Destroyers.

[Terrace]

Cappies do like AC/20s. The UrbanMech, Charger, Thunder, Victor, Yu Huang, Lao Hu, Lu Wei Bing... i'm sure there are others.

Hey, if you're gonna be sneaky, why not bring along as much firepower as you can for maximum effectiveness?

[Iron Mongoose]

If you want to really stretch, Yen Lo Wang was fitting with its famous AC20 by Justin Xiang, while in the employ of a Capellan stable as a sneaky trick.  Now, no character commented on it at the time, but...