tactical applications and advantages of Quad Vees.

[WarGod]

To start I never used one in a game yet.

I'm trying to figure out what is the tactical applications and advantages of quad vees.

Most have a faster movement rate in vehicle mode.  But given restrictions of terrain i'm failing to see the advantage.  The 360 arc of fire is nice in both mech and vehicle mode, plus multiple targeting.  However you need two tank warriors to operate the tankmech.  Given the cost in development, plus the clans personnel shortages I would think this would have killed development to begin with.  ON the up shot compared to standard vehicles the quad Vee is tougher, unless i'm missing a rule somewhere.  They are omnis which given how heavy the horses are with elementals it gives a transport option.  (same could be said for there already excellent infantry carriers)
in Quad mode you get the side step, and stability of a quad, plus the 360 turret torso.
a decent advantage , and the tactical use is interesting , but once again I might be missing the why even develop it.  That being said I never understood why mech torso rotation, is  not 360 to begin with. 

This all being said what is the reason why, to spend the development funds, production capability, and assets to make such a vehicle?  I get that clan organization and zell allows you to bring two vehicle per point of the star.

[SCC]

Pretty sure there are none. But keep in mind these where developed during Stone Peace, which means that you didn't need to rebuild your military every few years you can afford to experiment a little bit, also it may be an attempt to find a way around the build limits.

[mbear]

Part of it might actually be the Clans traditional "warrior shortage." If you have a MechWarrior who would wash out because he can't pilot well but is a hell of a gunner, pair him up with a great pilot who can't get the weapons on target. Both warriors play to their strengths, and the Horses get an extra combat unit instead of losing a pair of warriors.

So basically I see the QuadVee as the Horses building a specific combat unit for the "subpar" warriors that the other Clans wouldn't use at all. Sort of like the test-down warriors used by the Diamond Sharks or the Ice Hellion warriors in Flurry units.

[mbear]

The QuadVee in 'Mech mode also avoids some of the terrain restrictions of vehicles. They can cross water like a 'Mech for example. So if your wheeled QuadVee comes across rough terrain, it can extend the legs and walk over it rather than being blocked.

[glitterboy2098]

Quavers in vehicle mode are only one level tall, allowing them to hide behind most terrain.

Wheeled quadvees have higher speed in vehicle mode, as well as gaining the bonus speed on pavement.

[GoldBishop]

Several advantages that I like about them:

"2 pilot system"
Similar to *actual* vehicles and Superheavy Tripods, the Quadvees use a Dedicated Gunner and Dedicated Pilot to fight.  There are penalties to the other if the other gets knocked out, but more detailed rules are found in Interstellar Ops.

"Deceptive Deployment"
The Quadvee - while a different element altogether - could be "disgused" as a vehicle.  Since clans put a stigma on vehicle deployment (2 to a Point, instead of 1:1 with Mechs) Quadvees can be paired up in a Point yet actually perform as a binary of battlemechs.  (I remember reading a source depicting the "Horses' deception" when bidding to take an objective, though, at the moment, I forget where/when/what.  Forgive me for being vague)

"Turret-mounted Weaponry"
Since all 4 legs of the Quad contain conversion equipment and alternate motive type (wheels/tracks), all the weaponry are mounted in the torso... and the Torso is thus mounted on a swivel not unlike the turret on a combat vehicle.  This gives the Quadvee 360 degrees of attack potential. 

"Equipment Survival"
In Vehicle mode, Quadvees are vulnerable to Motive crits, so if a result of "immobilized" comes up, the element can simply switch to Mech mode and "retreat" to fight another day.  Gyro hit in Mech mode?  Switch to vehicle mode and withdraw to safety.  The enemy cannot salvage what they cannot capture.

"Duck, Dodge, Dip, Dive, Dodge"
Quadvees can hide behind Level 1 terrain like vehicles, then, at a moments notice, pop up into Mech mode (with cover), rinse repeat.  This gives them the ability to quickly utilize the ground cover without having to "go prone" or kneel or other specialized maneuvers.  Speed boost (wheels on pavement) is also cool. 

[The_Caveman]

Like protos, I'm pretty sure its job is just to sell rulebooks.

*ducks*

[Maelwys]

Part of it might actually be the Clans traditional "warrior shortage." If you have a MechWarrior who would wash out because he can't pilot well but is a hell of a gunner, pair him up with a great pilot who can't get the weapons on target. Both warriors play to their strengths, and the Horses get an extra combat unit instead of losing a pair of warriors.

So basically I see the QuadVee as the Horses building a specific combat unit for the "subpar" warriors that the other Clans wouldn't use at all. Sort of like the test-down warriors used by the Diamond Sharks or the Ice Hellion warriors in Flurry units.

On the other hand, that doesn't really fit with what we know, since the Horses are also attempting to build a TankWarrior phenotype. And there's really not anything from stopping the Horses from simply dumping those washouts into traditional roles, such as Cavalry or Conventional Infantry. The QuadVee isn't really needed in that regard.

[Fireangel]

Not all advantages have to be "on the board"; road movement adds strategic value to the units, for example.

[Col Toda]

Moving faster in any objective raid situation is good because it reduces the numbers of defenders at the point of contact . That alone may justify the Quad Vee ?  I do not know the rules for the ability to transport them by drop ship in vehicle bays or not if so the tonnage to transport them is 50 - 75 % less  which means you can carry that much more . Can you transport them as vehicles between planets ? But since I have not play tested them I cannot say other than speed any tactical advantages  ?  I have seen cost VS training and resources analysis on LAMs and found them wanting but an aerospace cubical and mech bay weight the same . Also the level of training is higher . The biggest advantage of a vehicle with a lot of weapons is that due to the number of gunners a normal vehicle if it weighs enough does not get the tertiary target penalty .  I do not think a quad vee has more crew than the two crew so it would not get the bonus .  Since I believe the level of training may be lower and the stowage space as well it very well might be worthwhile . If you have to transport them as mechs only then the benefits does not on the surface seem worthwhile? LAM sacrifice a lot to be not as good as eithier an aerospace fighter or Battlemech . The Quad Vee is better only because the potential extra crew member and the possible stowage advantage .

[Scotty]

Several advantages that I like about them:

"Equipment Survival"
In Vehicle mode, Quadvees are vulnerable to Motive crits, so if a result of "immobilized" comes up, the element can simply switch to Mech mode and "retreat" to fight another day.  Gyro hit in Mech mode?  Switch to vehicle mode and withdraw to safety.  The enemy cannot salvage what they cannot capture.

My understanding is that this is incorrect, and that QuadVees simply do not take motive hits like vehicles do.

[glitterboy2098]

as i understand it, while they do not take motive crits the way full vehicles do, the tracks or wheels have critical slots in the mech, and hits to those can leave the quadvee unable to use that movement mode.

they are thus much less fragile than a conventional vehicle, and if they find themselves with one or the other movement modes reduced they can switch and keep moving.

[mbear]

On the other hand, that doesn't really fit with what we know, since the Horses are also attempting to build a TankWarrior phenotype. And there's really not anything from stopping the Horses from simply dumping those washouts into traditional roles, such as Cavalry or Conventional Infantry. The QuadVee isn't really needed in that regard.

That's a good point. I wasn't aware of the tankwarrior phenotype. I'm out of ideas.

[Azakael]

Not all advantages have to be "on the board"; road movement adds strategic value to the units, for example.

You mean like loading Battlemechs into vehicle bays on a Dropship?

[Cryhavok101]

In addition to the points others have mentioned, when moving on their tracks quadvees don't set off vibrobombs last time I checked, so you can wonder around your own minefields. You can also set them to just the right weight that you can convert to mech mode and set them off yourself from a safe distance.

[Fireangel]

You mean like loading Battlemechs into vehicle bays on a Dropship?

Which assumes that a dropship is available, and would seem to be pointless for a response to an attack a couple hundred km away.

[Talen5000]

To be honest, I don't think there is one, except perhaps for cost.

They have some situational advantages, but the big reasoning behind them appears to be aspects such as flavour and force variety rather than battlefield effectiveness. We see the same thing with Protomechs and the new Interface armour.

QuadVees, as far as effectiveness goes, don't really have a lot to sell them - they use mass for the conversion equipment, they require two warriors because of "fluff", and the deception the Horses use by deciding whether to treat them as Mech or Vehicle in aspects such as bidding really should not go down well with other Clans.

But as additional flavour for the Clans? They're OK. I think I'd rather have given the Clans an improved hovercraft -maybe using a jet style lift system, or a new Thorizer based unit (though that might work for the Ravens) - but as it is, it's simply a weird experimental unit the Horses are trying to perfect and as such, it's a unit that has noticeable drawbacks.

I think that it needs to be given some advantage in the Vehicle form though to justify its existence but that might come in the future. For now...it's simply a weird flavour unit.

[monbvol]

They make sense in a few ways as far as I can tell:

-Fighting from a numerical disadvantage.  As much as the armies have shrunk so have those of the Hell's Horses and they've wised up to the fact that they're almost always going to be out numbered by their opponents.  Quadvees splitting fire as needed can do a lot to make up for that.

-From my reading of their rules even in vehicle mode they can go under water.

-Some thought may be required to manage their vehicle mode terrain limitations but since they can switch modes so quickly and easily this isn't a big deal.

-You can have a 100 ton wheeled vehicle without it being super heavy thanks to Quadvees and it can still get up to 5/8 plus any road bonus.

[Talen5000]

They make sense in a few ways as far as I can tell:

-Fighting from a numerical disadvantage.  As much as the armies have shrunk so have those of the Hell's Horses and they've wised up to the fact that they're almost always going to be out numbered by their opponents.  Quadvees splitting fire as needed can do a lot to make up for that.

Two warriors per unit instead of one.
A lot of space given over to conversion equipment and tracks/wheels.
It can split fire, and the wheeled mode goes a bit faster, but it gives up a lot of mass and weaponry to gain that ability

-You can have a 100 ton wheeled vehicle without it being super heavy thanks to Quadvees and it can still get up to 5/8 plus any road bonus.

And to get that you give up 25 Tons, and that requires a 400 rated engine.

At best I'd say their advantages are situational. They are a nice flavour unit but unless the Horses unlock some hidden potential -as in new abilities -  I can't see them becoming very popular.

Of course, if you gave them a nice AI suite and had them as autonomous units, maybe with a big semi as a roving base....;)

As it is, if we wanted tracks on a Mech unit, a 10% cost would give us the Track feature. Yes, it is "almost unheard of on BattleMechs" but it isn't impossible. You add tracks to a Mech and you have a QuadVee without the flavour transform capability and save the conversion mass.

The QuadVees are an interesting unit...but of very little use or advantage, and is largely obsoleted by the existence of Tracks. Yes - not quite the same, but close enough. IMO anyway.

[monbvol]

While it is true that you have to pay a fair a mount to get certain results it is still less than what you have to pay with a combat vehicle thanks to them needing an extra 50% engine mass in shielding to mount fusion engines and quadvees can use double heat sinks while combat vehicles can't.

So even counting the gyro it only takes 30.5 tons for a 100 ton QuadVee to achieve 5/8.

Compared to the 31 tons that a wheeled vehicle would have to spend, well it is only half a ton to be fair but it should also be pointed out that is only a 380 XL Fusion engine too.

The main advantage of combat vehicles is their not needing heat sinks for certain weapons and not having the same critical slot worries but aside from that there seem to be a few niche areas where QuadVees seem to have an edge.

[Cryhavok101]

QuadVees have the advantage of being able to alter their height from 1 to 2 levels and back again. That by itself is a major tactical advantage in any terrain that isn't flatlands.

They have space and weight issues, but that is something that can be designed around. They can either use space saving equipment as needed and/or use space efficient weapons.

Personally, I think the are great units, but I also think they aren't going to make the best main-line units. I'd design them for harassment/control, recon, or urban fighting, and I would specialize them for those roles. I'd never try to make one that was meant to go Toe-to-Toe with a Mad Cat for example, because it won't work all that well. That might make them poor choices for one-of pick-up games, in many cases. Personally though, when I design a unit, what goes on in the vacuum of a one-of pick-up game is never a factor in my decisions (unless it is being designed for something like a Solaris IIV game).

Personally, what I'd like to do some time is set up a unit that uses a QuadVee anvil to meet a LAM hammer... unfortunately the very idea is practically blasphemous in some groups. ;D

[Talen5000]

While it is true that you have to pay a fair a mount to get certain results it is still less than what you have to pay with a combat vehicle thanks to them needing an extra 50% engine mass in shielding to mount fusion engines and quadvees can use double heat sinks while combat vehicles can't.

So even counting the gyro it only takes 30.5 tons for a 100 ton QuadVee to achieve 5/8.

Compared to the 31 tons that a wheeled vehicle would have to spend, well it is only half a ton to be fair but it should also be pointed out that is only a 380 XL Fusion engine too.

31.5 Tons...Quadvees need a special cockpit.

The advantages of a QuadVee over a mech are that it can pay less attention to gyro and leg damage and can transform into a unit 1 level high. It can also mutitarget and has a spare cockpit/pilot. The disadvantage is that it gives up over20% of its entire mass to do so

Compared with a vehicle...the QuadVee can pay less attention to track damage. It can use certain BattleMech technologies that are otherwise forbidden from being use on vehicles. It doesn't have to pay for shielding. It can transform and enter terrain types normally forbidden to vehicles.

Comparing a QuadVee to a Mech - say the Ryoken vs the Cyrallos - the Ryoken has more armour, is more mobile, and carries more weaponry/equipment. Even if we switched the cyrallos to an XL engine, that would save only 7.5 tons.

Comparted with the Enyo - the Cyrallos is slower, carries the same armour spread over more locations. Even if we gave the Cyrallos an XL engine, again, that would only allow another 7.5 tons of equipment.

So - while you are right that the QuadVee pays less to acheive a certain movement rating than a vehicle, and doesn't have to pay for shielding, it DOES have to pay for conversion equipment and a secondary motive system that the vehicles does not. So while the Enyo has 6/9 movement from a 330XL engine, massing 19 tons including shielding, and controls massing 3 Tons , the Cyrallos uses a 275 engine (15.5 Tons) plus Conversion (5.5 Tons) Plus Tracks (5.5 Tons) plus Gyro (3 Tons) plus cockpit (4 Tons) to acheive worse performance.

22 Tons vs 29.5 Tons. Were we to use an XL on the Cyrallos, we would save 7.5 tons, making the two equal in mass, but with the QuadVee still a 5/8 unit instead of 6/9.

QuadVees are closer in performance to vehicles. Definitely. But still largely inferior. But the motive system and conversion equipment more than make up for the gain from the lack of shielding.

If the units were fluffed as vastly cheaper to build than Mechs, their lack of effectiveness could be excused. Or if they had some advantage over the other units...a LAM and Thorizer could both fly for example, which offers obvious advantages that could be worth the loss of effectiveness, even if it were simply used as a strategic mobility option.

But as it is...the QuadVees are interesting, but seem best viewed as a cheap flavour unit, an experiment, a unit with cheap BV -  and one that probably won't be around long.

They are best seen and used as tougher vehicles - but even then, it would simply have been easier for CGL to remove some of the arbitrary restrictions on vehicle design.

[monbvol]

Ick, yeah screwed up my math there.  Need to add another 16 tons because it is fair to count the wheeled 15% too and the extra ton of cockpit.  Still though the 100 ton QuadVee does have an extra 20 tons to give up in that comparison so it still comes out ahead in final total available payload.

Though it does raise another consideration for what is fair to consider in their weight comparisons to competing combat vehicles.  QuadVees are automatically environmentally sealed.

Certainly there does seem to be a break even point but where it is will depend entirely what capabilities are considered important to replicate in the QuadVee versus Combat Vehicle comparison.  I'll have to explore that a bit further myself.

[Talen5000]

Certainly there does seem to be a break even point but where it is will depend entirely what capabilities are considered important to replicate in the QuadVee versus Combat Vehicle comparison.  I'll have to explore that a bit further myself.

Yes...there are probably break points where the QuadVee comes out better than vehicles...but compared to Mechs they are, I think, a lost cause. The secondary movement option doesn't really add anything to the Mech, especially if its a tracked unit.

Things are better if the QuadVee are viewed as a vehicle. Then they still aren't as efficient, or as effective as a vehicle of the same mass,  but the mass they spend on the conversion and motive systems is compensated for - to some degree - by the lack of any need for shielding. They are much closer in effectiveness, might even be better in some regards, and the motive system offers some advantages there.

I would recommend that CGL place QuadVees in the vehicles section of future TROs simply to avoid comparison with Mechs. Treat them as vehicles, have the Clans decide to treat them as such (2 to a point and all), and they have a place. A small place, a niche, but still a place.

I still think the same result would be better served by simply removing some of those arbitrary restrictions on vehicle design but as I said, as a flavour unit, the QuadVee works quite well. But it is overbalanced and needs a stronger advantage somewhere than it has now.

[monbvol]

*nod*

Losing up to 25% for a few party tricks, for lack of a better term, does seem a bit much for keeping them competitive with mechs.

Versus vehicles the main advantages are the free environmental sealing, free close enough to full amphibious, a motive system that makes even the armored motive system construction option envious also for free, not caring quite as much about infernos/heat inducing weapons like a vehicle would, the ability to lose a section and stay in the fight, and use Double Heat Sinks.

[Talen5000]

As I said, they are much closer to the same level of effectiveness as a vehicle and likely should be treated as such.

I would still suggest vehicles are - on the whole - a better option, but QuadVees have a number of pluses which give them niche value...but only when filling the vehicle role and would have situational usefulness.

[Charistoph]

Of course, if you gave them a nice AI suite and had them as autonomous units, maybe with a big semi as a roving base....;)

As it is, if we wanted tracks on a Mech unit, a 10% cost would give us the Track feature. Yes, it is "almost unheard of on BattleMechs" but it isn't impossible. You add tracks to a Mech and you have a QuadVee without the flavour transform capability and save the conversion mass.

I don't know.  It may be too heavy for the gears for that mech to stride around with.

[Talen5000]

I don't know.  It may be too heavy for the gears for that mech to stride around with.

It's a viable and legal option for BattleMechs as well as Industrial Mechs. You can't "run" with the tracks active but other than that, they offer most of the benefits a QuadVee brings to a Mech.

[Karimancer]

QuadVee's are no different than LAMs. They're gimicky, wannabe anime mecha of subpar performance that would have been served better as one off (or small scale) experiments and are ultimately unnecessary. But they're also like ProtoMechs in that, while I don't think they really add anything to the game and should probably just die off, I can sort of understand their existence from an in-universe fluff perspective.

[Charistoph]

It's a viable and legal option for BattleMechs as well as Industrial Mechs. You can't "run" with the tracks active but other than that, they offer most of the benefits a QuadVee brings to a Mech.

I was making a joke that they would then match Dream Pod 9's Gear Striders for Heavy Gear.

[Talen5000]

QuadVee's are no different than LAMs. They're gimicky, wannabe anime mecha of subpar performance that would have been served better as one off (or small scale) experiments and are ultimately unnecessary. But they're also like ProtoMechs in that, while I don't think they really add anything to the game and should probably just die off, I can sort of understand their existence from an in-universe fluff perspective.

Well..yes.

My point - in their favour - is that if you think of them as vehicles, then they do have some niche value. They are complete failures as Mechs, but as an advanced vehicle substitute, they do offer some value.

And...they provide flavour. Quirkiness. Difference. They aren't "optimal" and I think they are overbalanced - too many nonsensical bad points added to the rules simply to ensure they are bad units and don't outshine the stars - and need a rules tweaking or new equipment to give them some sort of role but they do add some value to the game.

I think the Horses would have been better served with something like Vectored Thrust Hovertanks but QuadVees aren't without value. You just have to think of them as vehicles. It would even be best - IMO - if CGL moved QuadVees to the vehicles section of any TROs and had the Clans organise them as such.

[Talen5000]

I was making a joke that they would then match Dream Pod 9's Gear Striders for Heavy Gear.

Oh....

Speaking of which, I don't think I've seen anything on that in years. Is it still around?

Anyway, if you wanted HG Striders, Tank treads are a legal option in BT. Not sure about wheels though.

[Charistoph]

Oh....

Speaking of which, I don't think I've seen anything on that in years. Is it still around?

Yeah, they're still around.  They just ran a kickstarter to get some plastic molds going.  It's harder for me to get their kits from a store than Battletech, though.  I'd have to go online.  That's not a huge problem, but it's easier to run cash transactions at time since the Mrs doesn't see them as much.  O0

[Talen5000]

Yeah, they're still around.  They just ran a kickstarter to get some plastic molds going.  It's harder for me to get their kits from a store than Battletech, though.  I'd have to go online.  That's not a huge problem, but it's easier to run cash transactions at time since the Mrs doesn't see them as much.  O0

Minis? I just checked and I don't see any actual product since 2012 though. No books or scenarios...just minis. That can't be right. I haven't been involved in gaming for a good few years, but surely they are doing something?

But yes - I missed the joke.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Quadvees don't have many or significant advantages over mechs.  But they do have clear advantages over vehicles in terms of survivability and firepower.

I've spent some time recently designing/optimizing Clanner tanks and quadvees.  Even the best, 50-ton, 5/8, tracked Clanner main battle omnitank with ferro-lamellor armor and an armored motive system is still more vulnerable to losing its mobility or an outright kill than the equivalent quadvee.  It's just harder to take out a couple legs or core a quad mech than it is to score mobility hits or get through all the armor on one section of a tank, even with advanced armor/protection.  Some of the early canon quadvee designs look lightly armored compared to an equivalent mech, but they are probably still more survivable than equivalent combat vehicles because they transfer damage and take crit rolls like mechs and don't suffer the inherent weaknesses of combat vehicles in these areas.

Similarly, because quadvees use freezers, they can rack up damage potential per ton of weapons faster via energy weapons (especially Clan energy weapons) than regular combat vehicles can with their single heat sinks.  Some of the early canon quadvees were nerfed in this vein (e.g., dual Gauss cannons on the Harpagos instead of dual ER PPCs, a sextet of ER medium lasers, and the freezers to bracket fire either without heat buildup), but that doesn't eliminate the potential.

So if I want the highest quality, most survivable combat vehicle force possible, I'd go with quadvees.  They'll still be inferior to equivalent battlemechs because of the tonnage sunk into their conversion and motive systems.  But they'll match up against battlemechs much better than equivalent combat vehicles.

For a tank-heavy touman like the Hell's Horses, it makes a lot of sense to make those combat vehicles and crews as effective as possible.  But even outside the Horses, if I were running another Clan touman with significant combat vehicle production and crews, I'd be looking to convert them to quadvees if I could.  (Not my top priority, but it would be on the list.)

I think quadvees are different from LAMs.  LAMs are both inferior battlemechs and inferior aerospace fighters (but superior VTOLs if they have three movement modes).  Quadvees are also inferior battlemechs, but they are clearly superior combat vehicles.

My 2 Kerenskies... FWIW.

[Kojak]

Honestly, the biggest of advantage of QuadVees isn't technological. It's organizational. As Natasha put it, QuadVees are inferior BattleMechs but superior combat vehicles. So the fact that they come two to a Point makes them a major threat; even if they're less effective individually than an equivalent 'Mech, even the best 'Mechs would be hard-pressed to match two of them.