Author Topic: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III  (Read 238089 times)

JarheadEd

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #480 on: 24 June 2017, 12:58:26 »
Austrian Saurer SPz A1 (aka Saurer 4K 4FA-G2) with 20mm MK66 automatic gun.

A Puma is like twice the size of that thing, in about every direction ;)

Nice, Thanks for the info, and yes, it was very small, Like BMD small.
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kato

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #481 on: 24 June 2017, 14:32:34 »
I was actually first thinking Wiesel 2 (number of roadwheels fits) or Hotchkiss TT (engine grills at the front side are right) - then noticed the little plaque in one picture saying "2cm Mk66" :P

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #482 on: 17 July 2017, 00:39:36 »
So, not sure if tank, armoured machine gun post. Or awesome mobility scooter.






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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #483 on: 17 July 2017, 00:44:00 »
So, not sure if tank, armoured machine gun post. Or awesome mobility scooter.

Man, if medicare would cover that, I'd be much more likely to use a scooter...
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #484 on: 17 July 2017, 12:14:09 »


Prototype of the French Griffon VBMR (multi-role armoured vehicle) unveiled at Bastille Day parade.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #485 on: 17 July 2017, 13:48:26 »
(multi-role armoured vehicle)
Do we have an explanation what does that one mean?
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Van Gogh

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #486 on: 17 July 2017, 13:58:37 »
It is a direct replacement for the old VAB vehicle (Véhicule de l'Avant Blindé, armoured forward(-deployed) vehicle).
Basicly, a wheeled armoured vehicle that can be adapted for several uses: battlefield taxi, light support, field ambulance, armoured supply carrier, ATGM carrier...
I dare say, a wheeled M113.

The Griffon is the result of the Scorpion program, detailed here with a couple of additional pictures. One can note that the future standard light wheeled tank (successor to the EBR and AMX-10RC) shares the same chassis.
« Last Edit: 17 July 2017, 14:04:09 by Van Gogh »

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #487 on: 17 July 2017, 14:52:45 »
It is a direct replacement for the old VAB vehicle (Véhicule de l'Avant Blindé, armoured forward(-deployed) vehicle).
Basicly, a wheeled armoured vehicle that can be adapted for several uses: battlefield taxi, light support, field ambulance, armoured supply carrier, ATGM carrier...
I dare say, a wheeled M113.
Patria AMV for comparison.
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kato

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #488 on: 18 July 2017, 00:39:57 »
I dare say, a wheeled M113.
They also plan to use them for as long as the M113 (and, nearly, the VAB) has been around. I've heard planning reaching till the 2070s. In addition they do plan to acquire them in numbers comparable to how the M113 was fielded in the Cold War. Around 1400 units to enter service with France until ca 2028 as an initial procurement package plus another 400 with Belgium.

To a very limited extent it won't just replace the VAB APCs but also the VLRA trucks with light units where used as troop transports.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #489 on: 18 July 2017, 00:52:11 »
looking at images online.. i'd say the Stryker is probably a better comparison. it looks to be basically an armored truck, but it is too big to be a Humvee equivalent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBMR_Griffon



they are apparently going to use the same chassis to make a wheeled "Armored Reconnaissance and Combat Vehicle" with an anti-tank gun, the Jaguar EBRC. to replace the multitude of older wheeled recon and support vehicles with a single design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBRC_Jaguar


kato

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #490 on: 18 July 2017, 14:07:16 »
the Jaguar EBRC. to replace the multitude of older wheeled recon and support vehicles with a single design.
Only:
- the AMX-10RC (which similarly shared components with the AMX-10P main IFV),
- the ERC-90 Sagaies (bought because they were air-transportable in C-160s unlike the AMX-10RC)
- and the VAB in HOT launcher configuration aka Mephisto as anti-tank missile vehicles.

Although in my opinion the VAB-HOT replacement is more to bring up numbers and due to functional overlap than to directly replace them.

i'd say the Stryker is probably a better comparison.
The Stryker comparison is apt in another way too: France is planning "Scorpion Brigades" - replacing the current light armoured brigades first and establishing a new brigade by 2025. Belgium will effectively field a fourth "Scorpion Brigade" around the same time.

Both Griffon and Jaguar are STANAG 4569 Level 4 armored btw, i.e. 14.5mm / 155mm HE-FRAG / 10 kg mines. The Stryker is armored to Level 2A in basic protection (7.62mm AP or 6 kg mines non-central) and Level 4 if fitted with MEXAS-2C ceramic applique armor.


Planned versions for Griffon are:
- 1033 troop transport (split into: troop carrier, 81mm mortar team carrier, sniper team carrier, anti-tank team carrier)
- 333 C3
- 196 ambulance
- 117 artillery observer
- 54 engineer (split into: engineer/recovery, response team carrier, refueling)

There are plans for an additional VBMR-L, a lighter 12-ton version of the Griffon. These would replace most VLRA and some P4 trucks and PVP uparmored jeeps in Scorpion Brigades; about 3,800 unarmored P4 trucks throughout the forces are planned to be updated instead of replaced. Tender for VBMR-L was expected mid last year, but to my knowledge postponed.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #491 on: 18 July 2017, 14:36:00 »
Doesn't a "sniper team carrier" AFV seem a little counterproductive?  Hard to sneak into an area undetected when you're tooling areound in a big armored box.  Also, rather a niche concept, hard to see why it needs its own variant.
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #492 on: 18 July 2017, 14:49:07 »
It's probably designed to get them to the rough area of their mission, then they hoof it on foot. Probably a lot quieter than a helicopter.

As for the variant, I've got no clue. It's designed to carry less people than a normal AFV, so you've got a bit of room to play with. Were I tasked with this, my completely uneducated guess would be to try and extend the vehicle's driving range, and improve comm gear so that the sniper team can get mission updates before going out on foot.
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kato

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #493 on: 18 July 2017, 15:28:19 »
The three special variants of the troop carrier are for the company "support" platoons which are present with all French infantry companies.

These platoons currently have 4 VAB and are used to transport:
  • Mortar Squad (2x 81mm mortars / 11 men)
  • Sniper Squad (2x .50cal Hecate II anti-material rifle + 2x 7.62mm FRF2 sniper rifle / 7 men)
  • Anti-tank Squad (2x Milan / 6 men)
plus a 4-man command section and the 4 drivers and 4 gunners on the vehicles.

The specialized variants - which are only subvariants of the troop carrier and reconfigurable - probably have racks and such specific for the weapons used by these teams.

VABs similarly come in a variety of variants and subvariants - the target of Scorpion is actually to cut down on those; there are only 11 subvariants of Griffon compared to 33 for VAB today.
« Last Edit: 18 July 2017, 15:31:09 by kato »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #494 on: 19 July 2017, 07:55:00 »
It's probably designed to get them to the rough area of their mission, then they hoof it on foot. Probably a lot quieter than a helicopter.

As for the variant, I've got no clue. It's designed to carry less people than a normal AFV, so you've got a bit of room to play with. Were I tasked with this, my completely uneducated guess would be to try and extend the vehicle's driving range, and improve comm gear so that the sniper team can get mission updates before going out on foot.
If you're using scout-sniper teams, they also make great recon units that can nestle in and watch an area for a while.  Having extra radios and power for them could mean several teams operate from one vehicle and act as some impressive observers.  Probably also an asset you'd at least give some access to artillery and FAC radios.
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worktroll

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #495 on: 20 July 2017, 19:04:39 »


41st AIR halftracks at Catz (Normandy)



A small section of a vehicle column parked up in Carentan.

Worth noting - pictures taken last week. About 200 re-enactors and 45 vehicles ranging from M8 Greyhounds to Harley WLAs spent 10 days following the route of CCB of the 2nd Armored division during Operation Cobra. Photos taken with WW2 cameras using WW2 lenses, and WW2-equivalent film stock.
« Last Edit: 20 July 2017, 19:51:10 by worktroll »
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #496 on: 20 July 2017, 19:15:42 »
What's that vehicle in the foreground of the lower pic?  It reminds me a lot of BT's Chevalier.
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #497 on: 20 July 2017, 19:30:34 »
What's that vehicle in the foreground of the lower pic?  It reminds me a lot of BT's Chevalier.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #498 on: 20 July 2017, 20:33:23 »


41st AIR halftracks at Catz (Normandy)

How'd that line in Patton go?

"Is it true that German machine gun rounds go straight through our half-tracks?"

"Naw, they just go through one side, then rattle around a bit."
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #499 on: 20 July 2017, 22:44:17 »
How'd that line in Patton go?

"Is it true that German machine gun rounds go straight through our half-tracks?"

"Naw, they just go through one side, then rattle around a bit."
Do we know what veterans have said about it?
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #500 on: 20 July 2017, 23:38:43 »
Well, American half-tracks were intended to be used primarily for transportation, not combat, so they weren't heavily armored.
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #501 on: 21 July 2017, 02:05:20 »
Do we know what veterans have said about it?

My home town fire department had an old M16 Half Track that they got surplus from the US Navy, the cab is still armored, it is about 1/2 inch of steel plate. My guess (to the best of my knowledge that vehicle has never been shot at) is that it would stop .30-06 ball but not AP (and the German equivalent), but that is just my best guess.

Long story as told to me, the US Navy pulled it off the assembly line and took the turret off put a water tank and painted it red, used it as a dock fire engine. After the war they surplussed it out as no longer needed, my home town (all four by six blocks of it) got it for free as one agency to another transfer. Used it as one of their main rigs for years, and in the late 80's put it into reserve duty, now it is the department mascots vehicle that they take to the town parades and such. Back when I was a volunteer in the department I think we only had three trucks that were not military/CD hand me downs.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #502 on: 21 July 2017, 04:20:53 »


41st AIR halftracks at Catz (Normandy)



A small section of a vehicle column parked up in Carentan.

Worth noting - pictures taken last week. About 200 re-enactors and 45 vehicles ranging from M8 Greyhounds to Harley WLAs spent 10 days following the route of CCB of the 2nd Armored division during Operation Cobra. Photos taken with WW2 cameras using WW2 lenses, and WW2-equivalent film stock.

I have to say thats astonishing and well done to the people involved in pulling all that together
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #503 on: 21 July 2017, 15:25:39 »
My home town fire department had an old M16 Half Track that they got surplus from the US Navy, the cab is still armored, it is about 1/2 inch of steel plate. My guess (to the best of my knowledge that vehicle has never been shot at) is that it would stop .30-06 ball but not AP (and the German equivalent), but that is just my best guess.

Long story as told to me, the US Navy pulled it off the assembly line and took the turret off put a water tank and painted it red, used it as a dock fire engine. After the war they surplussed it out as no longer needed, my home town (all four by six blocks of it) got it for free as one agency to another transfer. Used it as one of their main rigs for years, and in the late 80's put it into reserve duty, now it is the department mascots vehicle that they take to the town parades and such. Back when I was a volunteer in the department I think we only had three trucks that were not military/CD hand me downs.

Funny; I just got a copy of Hunnicut's "Halftrack" and it specs the armour as 1/4" overall, with 1/2" on the drop-down for the windshield.

No, That would not stop very much, would it? But nor is it much better than a Universal Carrier at 7-10mm overall.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #504 on: 21 July 2017, 15:54:59 »
the bit about bullets "entering one side and rattling around" came from comments the crews made during the war. the first one actually came from an after action report in Tunisia. the line in Patton was a minor reworking of that report.

partly the issue was like with the M113 post war.. the M3 halftrack was designed as a 'battletaxi', meant to move troops to the fighting, where they would disembark to actually fight. but since it was more mobile than foot troops and had a machinegun, it tended to get used as a support vehicle and fighting platform in practice, meaning the lack of armor was an issue.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #505 on: 21 July 2017, 17:55:51 »
The also fact that the M3 and many other Battle Taxis didn't have some type of protection from the top was very dangerous to the passengers in side.
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #506 on: 21 July 2017, 17:57:08 »
The also fact that the M3 and many other Battle Taxis didn't have some type of protection from the top was very dangerous to the passengers in side.


canvas roofing not a great way to save weight for armoured fighting vehicles, see also helmet versus beret
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #507 on: 22 July 2017, 05:46:47 »
Astros II MLRS firing - sure we've seen a lot of these but I think this is 1 of the really few if not the first view from a pretty unique angle - all hail drone photography!


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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #508 on: 28 July 2017, 11:45:58 »
Meanwhile fear the pre WW2 Danish mechanised forces!



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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #509 on: 28 July 2017, 13:00:29 »
Well, it's got a shovel. That makes it Tactical...right?