Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser

[SD501st]

Since there seem to be no new Warship of the Week/Month/Year articles in the foreseeable future and I can't find one for the Mjolnir, which is a ship class that always fascinated me for it's sheer "IN YOUR FACE" style, I would love to hear about this particular ship class from the community.

What are it's strengths and weaknesses compared to other "new" warships constructed by the Successor States? How does it hold up against Clan Warships? Which conclusions do you draw from the design, how should it be used to maximize it's strengths, and minimize it's weaknesses? How could it have been more optimized for it's intended role? Do you have any particular experiences or stories about playing with one?

Basicly, tell me everything you know and think about it! :))

[marauder648]

The Molly is VERY tough, with a massive structural integrity and biblical amounts of armour they are tougher than anything in service anywhere else save the Leviathan II.  They are also fast for their size, being faster than most Clan ships save the York and Lola III (and some smaller vessels). 

Armament wise they are built for close to mid range brawling and suuuuuuuck at long range engagements relying on luck with their few long range weapons to hit at ranges where you might find a Texas or McKenna sitting.  Compared to Clan ships in theory they outgun anything smaller and basically anything save the Potemkin and McKenna, but they are built with different roles in mind.

A Texas and McKenna are both designed to fight at long range, using their big gun batteries to get nice bracket firing bonuses before popping away at extreme range.  And at those ranges the Molly simply can't reliably reply save with its missiles or the odd lucky hit with the heavy and Medium PPC's or heavy guass rifles.  With them at best you can get a maximum of -1 to hit, whilst the Clan ships will be getting -3 or -4 to hit and in space battles thats HUGE. 

Up close where they can bring their NAC-40's to bare the Molly can easily outgun a Texas but you've got to get into range where you can use them accurately as you've only got a limited number of shots so you can't just go DAKKA DAKKA! and hope for hits, with 13/12 roungs per gun you NEED to be sure of the hit.

The Molly has some defences against fighters with her ER large laser and LRM batteries but these are really little more use than deterrence, her main defence will be her 32 fighters and 4 dropships. But here you get a problem.

The Molly has an absolutely TINY cargo capacity, just over 14k tons, and whilst in a pick up game this basically means bugger all, in a campaign this is a HUGE drawback.  This means that the Mjolnir has an absolutely pathetic range as you'll burn through your food and water VERY quickly with a fully loaded ship (including the crews of her dropships).  She'd literally have to go *jump* ATTACK SOMEWHERE *come home again*.  Or what you do is give her say two cargo dropships and load them up with food, water, spare parts etc if you want her to go a little more than one or two jumps before having 3/4 of the crew die of scurvy.  Also there's only 1 (large) grav-deck making life uncomfortable on long missions. This all points to a ship that was designed to go out, punch someone in the throat and then call it a night and go home. Not patrol the borders.

And if you take some cargo dropships (which you would need to do in a campaign) then you've only got two escorting dropships and for the love of Blake don't put a carrier dropship with her as that will just gobble up her supplies even quicker.

There's also no shuttles or small craft so you'd probably have to fit some of those which would reduce your aerospace fighter complement as well.

The way I look at the Mjolnir is she's a big strong body builder of a vessel, but she has no endurance. If you can get close with her, you'll delete anything that gets in her way save a Leviathan II as you can take a pounding on the approach, but if she's unable to close she can't do much.  But if you can get into a brawl with a hostile ship or two, then they are in trouble, and the Molly with her thick hide, can take a real battering before thinking about withdrawing and her heavy guns at short range can smash opposing ships into kindling.

As for Strengths and weaknesses

Strengths

Absurdly strong hull and armour
brual firepower up close
Fast for a ship her size.
Adequate fighter compliment

Weaknesses

weak at long range
No AMS or point defence weaponry (which would become an issue in the Jihad when EVERYONE save the Clans was lobbing nukes around in space battles)
Absolutely no edurance without affecting her dropship complement
Light anti-fighter defences that are of better use of scaring off a fighter strike rather than defeating it.

She's still superior to pretty much anything in House service, and would do well against other House warships from the 3057 or 3067 book as they are all built with the same kind of focus on close in fighting, this also applies to most Clan ships although something like a well handled Black Lion could be an issue and the Texas, Potemkin and McKenna are far more nasty, and if there's a Leviathan II or Blake help you a Leviathan III, time to close your eyes and be prepared for a lot of stinging.  Cpmpaired to the big ships of the other Houses at the time the one she'd not want to face is the Thera.  That many fighters will drown her and disable her, but everything else, as long as she gets in range she can remove them with ease.  The Feng Huan is woefully undergunned (the Feng Huan II cruiser carrier though...) Against an Avalon its a case of not being too badly damaged by missile hits on the approach before engaging at close quarters, the Agamemnon is laughably fragile and a few hits could destroy one. 

A nightmare for this thing to face would be a Kimagure class.  Its both faster and has lots of very long ranged guns with decent bracketing numbers. In a pure gun on gun battle, if the Kimagure can dictate the range (and with her higher thrust rating she pretty much shall) the Mjolnir would have issues hitting her whilst the Kimagure would have to wear down the Molly's armour. 

[Ruger]

What was just said...there are many design decisions on the Mjolnir that I personally would have done differently (not a big fan of the two largest NAC's; I prefer either triple banks of NAC-20's, or double banks of NAC-30's for the range vs. damage potential...and the limited cargo,  and lack of ammo and AMS...yeesh).

Then again, I also prefer a lot of uniformity in my WarShips' armament rather than a few weapons of all different types here and their...especially in ammo consuming weapons (except missiles...I can deal with a variety on those), as the logistics of supplying all those different weapons would be a nightmare...

But as a brawler (if you can get into range), this WarShip is a bully...

Ruger

[marauder648]

What was just said...there are many design decisions on the Mjolnir that I personally would have done differently (not a big fan of the two largest NAC's; I prefer either triple banks of NAC-20's, or double banks of NAC-30's for the range vs. damage potential...and the limited cargo,  and lack of ammo and AMS...yeesh).

Then again, I also prefer a lot of uniformity in my WarShips' armament rather than a few weapons of all different types here and their...especially in ammo consuming weapons (except missiles...I can deal with a variety on those), as the logistics of supplying all those different weapons would be a nightmare...

But as a brawler (if you can get into range), this WarShip is a bully...

Ruger

Agreed, she's not perfect but then again, i'm glad that none of the ships really are.  Sure it would make more sense to have a big bank of NAC-20's for longer ranged fire and bracketing but designing a perfect ship is kinda boring. Its like facing a Clan 100 tonner with 5 x LPLs and a targetting computer, sure its effective (and it can be done so you're moving 3/5, full armour and enough HS to remain heat neutral whilst running), but dear god is it boring and no fun to face.  With ships having flaws (See almost all of the SLDF ships in TRO 3057, they all have a LOT of issues, but that could be written off as doctrine, you wont' face one SLDF destroyer, you'd face a dozen, and 3 cruisers, and a battlecruiser.  House warships are built to operate alone, hence them being tougher, better protected and having more varied firepower.

As you said, this things a bully. If you can get in range.

[Hellraiser]

She'd literally have to go *jump* ATTACK SOMEWHERE *come home again*. 

Weaknesses
weak at long range
No AMS or point defence weaponry (which would become an issue in the Jihad when EVERYONE save the Clans was lobbing nukes around in space battles)
Absolutely no edurance without affecting her dropship complement
Light anti-fighter defences that are of better use of scaring off a fighter strike rather than defeating it.

For all the reasons above, and the lack of LFBs as well, to me, she is deployed as a "Defensive" ship.

Few in #, had the Jihad not happened the Lyran's could have probably kept producing them & slowly deployed them to park in orbit over Capitals & Factories  (Tharkad, Alarion, Hesperus, Skye, Coventry).

Offensively, her only real use is to have a single target in mind, go in, bludgeon your way to it, vaporize it, & then come home.

[Arkansas Warrior]

If I was the admiral in charge of one, I'd have a Monolith full of cargo droppers permanently assigned to follow me around with supplies.  If we're going into a hot combat zone, they'd initially jump well outside the system proper, but close enough to radio.  A few light-minutes, perhaps.  Once I'm done trashing the defenses, I radio them to drop in and fill me up, but have them keep a point out-system plotted all the time in case trouble jumps in.

[Weirdo]

The Mjolnir's greatest flaw is its heat sink grid, or lack thereof. You've barely got enough heat sinks to fire in one, maybe two directions at once. When you're one of the biggest and most expensive ships in space(and therefore almost every fight will be against greater numbers of weaker enemies), the inability to engage large numbers of targets at once is a serious issue.

[Decoy]

Offensively, her only real use is to have a single target in mind, go in, bludgeon your way to it, vaporize it, & then come home.

Sounds like a certain throwing hammer from a certain myth.

[SD501st]

From what you all are saying(thanks by the way!), it looks like the Mjolnir-Class is designed as a fast response unit, a defensive design on the strategic level, but all out offensive on the tactical level.

I guess the original intention was probably to build more than just 2, park them in vital systems, able to respond to anything within 30 lightyears but able to jump back ASAP if that turns out to be a ruse... it is equipped with Lithium-Fusion Batteries , right?
Well, the same thing could work the other way around too... jump in, smash something, jump back to base.
But then the Civil War threw a wrench into the plan, the Jihad didn't help either, and afterwards warships are rarer than a full vintage Mackie, all original parts. :))

Mhm... here is an interesting question: If you were in charge of developing a partner warship for the Molly, say something in the cruiser/light cruiser category, how would you design it? I am not at all familiar with the Warship construction rules, so all I can do is give a very rough outline of what I would envision.

I would picture something intended to work as both a supply vessel for the larger ship and her fighters and droppers, as well as a warship in it's own right, covering the weaknesses of the Mjolnir... namely Anti-Fighter and Anti Missile defenses as well as some long range punch(it doesn't need to be a lot of firepower), but avoiding ammo dependency... we want as much of the cargo capacity to be available for the Molly  and her complement of fighters as possible.
So, AMS and/or LAMS, batteries of Naval Lasers able to bracket fire as well as swatting enemy aerospace fighters and dropships out of the sky.
Since it's intended as an escort, it would need to keep pace with the Mjolnir, too. Maybe some small craft bays to facilitate fast resupply runs?
What I am unsure about is how much that would leave for armor, and how much armor would be necessary. Another big question mark is the dropship capacity and which kinds of droppers, if any.

Well, back to the professionals then!   O0

[marauder648]

The ironic thing is that the Space Tuetons had a perfect escort for her.  Just one that had been extinct since the 2nd Succession War.

The Commonwealth class Light Cruiser - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Commonwealth_(WarShip_class)

6 dropships for escort roles, 18 fighters, heavy AMS, guns for long and short range, all in all a superb cruiser.

The Avalon - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Avalon would also be a good escort, as its absurdly tough like the Molly, and its big battery of missiles can swat down fighters and engage at long range too.

[Wrangler]

I just have big issues with big ships escorting big ships.  Anything over 500k is a large combatant in Battletech terms, your using a battleship to escort your slightly large battleship.  It's too bad Navies of 31st Century were extremely hobbled and limited. DropShips never cut the mustard on that role.

[sillybrit]

it is equipped with Lithium-Fusion Batteries , right?

No, the Mjolnirs don't have LF batteries, nor do they have the spare mass to have batteries fitted without removing something else first.

[YingJanshi]

The ironic thing is that the Space Tuetons had a perfect escort for her.  Just one that had been extinct since the 2nd Succession War.

The Commonwealth class Light Cruiser - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Commonwealth_(WarShip_class)

6 dropships for escort roles, 18 fighters, heavy AMS, guns for long and short range, all in all a superb cruiser.

The Avalon - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Avalon would also be a good escort, as its absurdly tough like the Molly, and its big battery of missiles can swat down fighters and engage at long range too.

Except the Avalon is much more likely going to be shooting at the Mjolnir rather than protecting it . 

[JPArbiter]

Except the Avalon is much more likely going to be shooting at the Mjolnir rather than protecting it .

when both ships were on the design table, that was not the case.

[Arkansas Warrior]

No, the Mjolnirs don't have LF batteries, nor do they have the spare mass to have batteries fitted without removing something else first.

Too bad there's no way to "pod-mount" a jumpship's LF batteries in a dropship.  "Just plug it in and jump again!"

[Dragon Cat]

No, the Mjolnirs don't have LF batteries, nor do they have the spare mass to have batteries fitted without removing something else first.

Which wouldn't necessarily hurt the ship since she can't fire everything at the moment anyway

when both ships were on the design table, that was not the case.

It's true during the FedCom era the Avalon and Mjolnir would have gone together and given their armour would have hurt many ships unfortunately both lack cargo reserves I guess that's why the Fox is around to act as an armed DropShip carrier with pop gun armament

Parking a Mjolnir and Avalon in a system would have given the FedCom a decent defence over March capitals or important systems

[marauder648]

IIRC the Molly actually started out as a Alliance made/designed 'light cruiser' that would work with the Avalon, but after the split the Alliance decided to scrap it being a small vessel and added a LOT of mass, completely changing the design and making it into the battlecruiser we now know.

Had the FedSuns stuck together the Avalon/Molly tag team would have been very formidable.

I mentioned the Commonwealth as she's got a good mix of lasers with 10 gun batteries for broadside work and a nice AMS defence.  She's got 6 dropship ports for additional firepower as well as 18 fighters.  Seeing as they were the escorts for Tharkad class battlecruisers they'd do the job nicely if they were built again and could potter around with the Molly.

[Hellraiser]

It's true during the FedCom era the Avalon and Mjolnir would have gone together and given their armour would have hurt many ships unfortunately both lack cargo reserves I guess that's why the Fox is around to act as an armed DropShip carrier with pop gun armament 

As mentioned.  The Mjolnir was on the drawing boards as a Light Cruiser smaller than the Avalon.
We don't actually know if it had limited cargo.  It might have actually had a lot more cargo than the Avalons & Foxes.
Only with the 57 split was a decision made to revamp it into a mega Battle Cruiser to outclass the Avalon.

I think somewhere it was mentioned to be in the 700KT range but I don't know that for sure.
All I can guess about it is that the original plans probably had 4 DC & no LFB since those 2 wouldn't likely have dropped.  The size, guns, & even speed would have been a lot different however.

[DarthRads]

I just love how it was a light cruiser...then the Lyrans took over the design process and it became the biggest thing outside of the SL/Clans

[Wrangler]

I wonder what she was suppose to be like as a Light Cruiser.  I love Mjolnir, but the original be interesting to see stat wise.

[Dragon Cat]

While personally I'd have preferred to see something along the Commonwealth lines I have a feeling Davion was driving the WarShip program so I'm guessing a mix of NAC or Gauss, AR10 or cudas, and maybe a couple of token NLs

She'd have flown the wrong way probably carried not enough fighters and cargo but had plenty ammo and armour

[Wrangler]

On things i says it frustrating with WarShips in general (fluff wise) lack of diversity.  Mjolnir is all powerful big boat of the Lyran Navy, but she stand alone in her role.  Battlecruiser needs screening elements.  It needs other ships to do stuff, Lyrans arguable have worse selection of escort ships available before.   

When they had a Warship fleet, they Battlecruiser Tharkad, while screened by the ancient Commonwealth Light Cruiser and (lucky it exists) Mako Class Corvette. 

The Fox is hold over from it's FedCom years, but not designed support the big hammer.  Lyrans don't have alot A3 anymore due to loss of Skye to the Republic in later years of it's existence. 

[The Eagle]

Really, though, the only House navy that grew large enough to merit those kind of distinctions and squadron organization was the Mariks.  And once the Jihad started, that didn't survive very long.

[marauder648]

The whole Battletech fleet balance is a mess from head to foot.  There's no logistics support vessels other than Yardships, there's no anti-fighter escort destroyers, no missile heavy ships (in service), no fleet carriers etc etc etc. 

[I am Belch II]

Its one of my favorite ships, lots of armor.

[The Eagle]

no fleet carriers

The FWLS Santorini would like a word with you.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The FWLS Santorini would like a word with you.

The Potemkin class as well, albeit in a rather different manner.

[Jellico]

The whole Battletech fleet balance is a mess from head to foot.  There's no logistics support vessels other than Yardships, there's no anti-fighter escort destroyers, no missile heavy ships (in service), no fleet carriers etc etc etc.

Last time I checked cargo droppers with 50,000 ton cargo bays were a thing and WarShips could deploy their own scaffolding.

Where is the calling for anti-fighter escort destroyers, missile heavy ships, fleet carriers etc beyond a wargamers desire to tick off boxes on a list?

Honestly were is the call for anything more than a Starlord with a Mammoth, Vengeance, and four Avengers?

[Weirdo]

The whole Battletech fleet balance is a mess from head to foot.  There's no logistics support vessels other than Yardships, there's no anti-fighter escort destroyers, no missile heavy ships (in service), no fleet carriers etc etc etc.

Any particular reason you're ignoring the great many DropShips that fulfill these roles so that WarShips can focus on carrying the big guns that only they can?

[Kit deSummersville]

Any particular reason you're ignoring the great many DropShips that fulfill these roles so that WarShips can focus on carrying the big guns that only they can?

Given enough cargo room, DropShips can carry them too!  :D

[Weirdo]

Given enough cargo room, DropShips can carry them too!  :D

Not usefully.

[marauder648]

Any particular reason you're ignoring the great many DropShips that fulfill these roles so that WarShips can focus on carrying the big guns that only they can?

Because it still creates imbalances.  The old 2750 book said the Potemkin was hamstrung by her being reliant on tankers due to the huge fuel consumption loads of her dropships in a combat environment.  So where are those tankers?  Would you use other dropships, because they need fuel too. 

Carriers are a problem too as I see Carrier dropships as a stopgap.  Now this is just me but lets consider slapping a few carrier dropships on a WarShip during the SLDF era.  If that carrier dropship is destroyed, you've now got anywhere between 18 - 40 orphaned fighters with no berths assuming your ships berths are full or you actually have one (most SLDF destroyers didn't carry more than 12 fighters and the 'cruiser' most commonly seen, the Sov Soy, could only carry 18). 

Also where are you going to put those crews from the dropships?  I would assume that for a long patrol etc they would have to be birthed aboard the warship carrying them, this means more cramped crew spaces, higher rates of supply consumption, and you're going to have to carry all the spares, ammo, etc for that carrier dropship in addition to your own.  This is fine on SLDF ships with their quite frankly absurd cargo capacities, but on modern house ships with many having storage space that could politely be described as overhead storage, this is a HUGE problem. 

Lets assume that you try to make a 'carrier' using a Potemkin and equip her with NOTHING but Titan class Dropships (SLDF era in this example).  Thats berths needed for 1,850 extra crew and pilots onboard with the dropships own fuel requirements and supply demands of those extra men.  And then there's habitability issues unless you basically turn some of the cargo space into bunk space and that's not gonna be comfortable or good for morale.  This, as I see it is the problem of carrier dropships. They are great for short term deployments, but for larger deployments, you really need a dedicated carrier WarShip with its own launch, repair and C3 facilities as well as room for the crew and air wing. 

I know I think too much in terms of blue water navies but the SLDF fleet and House fleets are unbalanced messes with seemingly the Clan's level of appreciation of logistics, if not worse. 

[Weirdo]

Because it still creates imbalances.  The old 2750 book said the Potemkin was hamstrung by her being reliant on tankers due to the huge fuel consumption loads of her dropships in a combat environment.  So where are those tankers?  Would you use other dropships

Yes. See the Mammoth's fluff about often being converted into a tanker, or the dedicated Aqueduct-class.

, because they need fuel too.

You've just discovered one of the many logistical challenges Battletech admirals had to overcome. Just like ammo and food, bringing more often entailed spending more. Their job was to bring more than they spent, and/or preposition stockpiles they could refuel from.

Carriers are a problem too as I see Carrier dropships as a stopgap.  Now this is just me but lets consider slapping a few carrier dropships on a WarShip during the SLDF era.  If that carrier dropship is destroyed, you've now got anywhere between 18 - 40 orphaned fighters with no berths assuming your ships berths are full or you actually have one (most SLDF destroyers didn't carry more than 12 fighters and the 'cruiser' most commonly seen, the Sov Soy, could only carry 18). 

Using a carrier WarShip doesn't solve this problem. A fighter is still stranded if his carrier gets zorched, regardless of wether the expanding cloud of wreckage used to be a DropShip or a WarShip.

Also where are you going to put those crews from the dropships?

On the DropShip. Those things carry quarters for a reason.

I would assume that for a long patrol etc they would have to be birthed aboard the warship carrying them

Why? ???

[Caedis Animus]

You could still save the pilot if there was a friendly ship in the area, even one with minimal cargo space.

And the Aerospace Fighter might be lucky enough to at least get cannibalized to repair/refit the surviving fighters lucky enough to get some parking space on the nearest friendly carrier, assuming there is one.

EDIT; Wait... Birthed? What?

[marauder648]

On the DropShip. Those things carry quarters for a reason.

But probably not for a long deployment.  Then its going to be getting uncomfortable and if a Warships thrusting around then you're having to launch the dropships every time she lights her main engines, burning their fuel to keep up. 

The way I see Dropship CV's is as the WW2 equivalent of a CVE, yes they can carry fighters, but they don't have the capacity to support them for long in the field due to lack of carrying space for spares etc.  Using my Titan example, she carries just over 2000 tons of cargo (2085 to be precise) and if you're berthing your crew aboard then thats going to be food, water, consumables + ammo for fighters + any spare fighters etc, it don't leave much.  So on a longer mission that's not *jump* PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE THROAT *go home* but say a multi-month patrol, you're going to have to draw off the ship you're attached to.  Dropships have been described as being uncomfortable and with iffy air recycling and a unique smell to them in the books, and even at the height of the SLDF you're probably going to run into habitability problems if you keep the crews onboard these small, short ranged vessels for a long period of time. 

Also where are the support vessels?  We know that space mines are a thing, so there should be a mine hunter/sweeper ship that can dismantle a field or act as a base for small craft that can do so.  Yes we know the Newgrange was a thing, but you'd not be able to deploy those everywhere, so where's the smaller repair/supply vessels to support you on missions far from your support structure and bases.  The Newgrange is a strategic asset, not something you break out for every deployment. 

Yes I know i'm thinking blue water navy, but the SLDF's fleet structure, its support infrastructure makes little sense.  And its more top heavy in combat units and lacking in support units than the US navy was pre-WW1. 
By which I mean that Pre WW1 the USN had a big fleet of battleships and armoured cruisers, but if you went to them

"Okay what about escorts and scouts?"
"Escorts?"
"You know...destroyers?"
"Deeh-stroy-urs?"  *blank faces all round*

The fleet had literally no modern destroyers, even for the period, and it wasn't until the huge emergency building programs of 1917 that the USN went "Oh yeah...we'd actually better screen our ships....doi-hoi-hoi."  Whilst this was just the result of budgetary stuff (you could fund a BB easier than a DD) it was a huge problem.  And this is kind of whats happened here.  The SLDF has like ALL the warships EVER. But nothing to actually support them in canon outside of the Newgrange.  And yes you can use dropships, so what carries them, more warships? Jumpships waiting behind the line, all alone and vulnerable?  Why not have a logistics transport, its whole life dedicated to carrying fuel, ammo, spare parts, crated fighters etc.  DropShips dock, take what they need and go to their ship in need.  But no, there's next to no logistic support for the SLDF once it operates outside of the hegemony.

[Arkansas Warrior]

But probably not for a long deployment.  Then its going to be getting uncomfortable and if a Warships thrusting around then you're having to launch the dropships every time she lights her main engines, burning their fuel to keep up. 




The way I see Dropship CV's is as the WW2 equivalent of a CVE, yes they can carry fighters, but they don't have the capacity to support them for long in the field due to lack of carrying space for spares etc.  Using my Titan example, she carries just over 2000 tons of cargo (2085 to be precise) and if you're berthing your crew aboard then thats going to be food, water, consumables + ammo for fighters + any spare fighters etc, it don't leave much.  So on a longer mission that's not *jump* PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE THROAT *go home* but say a multi-month patrol, you're going to have to draw off the ship you're attached to.  Dropships have been described as being uncomfortable and with iffy air recycling and a unique smell to them in the books, and even at the height of the SLDF you're probably going to run into habitability problems if you keep the crews onboard these small, short ranged vessels for a long period of time. 

Well...yes.  That's it exactly.  If you're burning in-system, the dropships detach.  That's how it always works.  If you're just sitting at the jump point, they probably stay hooked on unless they need to go out patrolling or something.  While they're hooked on, it's easy to transfer supplies from the WarShip to the dropper.


If not on their dropships, where might dropship crews live while traveling interstellar distances attached to conventional jumpships?  Because those things certainly don't have the quarters to spare for everyone.  Dropship accommodations may not be 5 star, but they're perfectly serviceable for long journeys. 

[Weirdo]

But probably not for a long deployment.  Then its going to be getting uncomfortable and if a Warships thrusting around then you're having to launch the dropships every time she lights her main engines, burning their fuel to keep up.

Dropship accommodations may not be 5 star, but they're perfectly serviceable for long journeys. 

Exactly this. Unless you specifically spring for improved quarters during construction, the accommodations for pilots assigned to DropShips and WarShips are exactly the same. WarShip crews get access to a grav deck on occasion that likely has some rec facilities on it, but that's it.

And yes you can use dropships, so what carries them, more warships? Jumpships waiting behind the line, all alone and vulnerable?

Yes to both.

Why not have a logistics transport, its whole life dedicated to carrying fuel, ammo, spare parts, crated fighters etc.  DropShips dock, take what they need and go to their ship in need.  But no, there's next to no logistic support for the SLDF once it operates outside of the hegemony.

That's called using a Potemkin or Volga or Carrack or an Invader with a few Mules/Mammoths/Behemoths/you get my drift attached.

[marauder648]

That's called using a Potemkin or Volga or Carrack or an Invader with a few Mules/Mammoths/Behemoths/you get my drift attached.

Yep but if you're using a Potemkin as an freighter, unless you're Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox you're doing something wrong.  thats kinda like using a Nimitz class carrier as a car ferry.  Volga's too are more a warship like a LSD rather than a supporting role.  The Carrack is fine in this, all be it a tad vulnerable and with 2 dropship collars your gonna have fun trying to organise that if you use her as a AOR for a squadron.

Jumpships are slow and horrifically vulnerable and pre-ares convention folks would have gunned for them, which means they have to be escorted.  Which means more of a logistics strain supplying the escorts and so on. 

As i've said i'm thinking too much in terms of blue water navies, and I know I am trying to fit that framework onto the SLDF. 

With something like the Molly, you'd HAVE to have her with a Mule carrying food, fuel, spares etc due to her having small bedside cabinets as cargo space, and the Molly seems built for short range  deployments or defensive duty where she's got a plentiful supply of friendly dropships.

[Weirdo]

Yep but if you're using a Potemkin as an freighter, unless you're Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox you're doing something wrong.  thats kinda like using a Nimitz class carrier as a car ferry.

Potemkins have always been cargo transports. It's players that look at the docking collars and see an excuse to spam Titans/Vengeances/Whatever DropShip has caught their eye that day. There is no indication this is ever done in-universe.

Jumpships are slow and horrifically vulnerable and pre-ares convention folks would have gunned for them, which means they have to be escorted.  Which means more of a logistics strain supplying the escorts and so on.

How is that different from the blue water navies you keep going back to? Did their supply ships traipse around the ocean unescorted?

  With something like the Molly, you'd HAVE to have her with a Mule carrying food, fuel, spares etc due to her having small bedside cabinets as cargo space, and the Molly seems built for short range  deployments or defensive duty where she's got a plentiful supply of friendly dropships.

Complete agreement. I don't ever think I've ever praised the Mjolnir's operational range.

[Iron Mongoose]

It should be remembered (as I'm sure many do) that the Houses and SLDF deserve very different criticism. Sure, the Star League should have been more efficient or well rounded, but if warships are a dime a dozen why not use a nimitz as a car carrier (not a perfect analogy, but why not)? I haven't studied the newer historicals so I can't say much here.

As for the houses, that's different. If boats were lostech for 300 years, then the first new fleets would look pretty goofy too.  I think the crazy hodgepodge of IS ships is actually quite reasonable given tactical, political and economic realities of the time.

[sillybrit]

Carriers are a problem too as I see Carrier dropships as a stopgap.  Now this is just me but lets consider slapping a few carrier dropships on a WarShip during the SLDF era.  If that carrier dropship is destroyed, you've now got anywhere between 18 - 40 orphaned fighters with no berths assuming your ships berths are full or you actually have one (most SLDF destroyers didn't carry more than 12 fighters and the 'cruiser' most commonly seen, the Sov Soy, could only carry 18).

Land the fighters in bays, transferring them to cargo to free up the bay for the next fighter, rinse and repeat until all are landed.

Also where are you going to put those crews from the dropships?  I would assume that for a long patrol etc they would have to be birthed aboard the warship carrying them, this means more cramped crew spaces, higher rates of supply consumption, and you're going to have to carry all the spares, ammo, etc for that carrier dropship in addition to your own.  This is fine on SLDF ships with their quite frankly absurd cargo capacities, but on modern house ships with many having storage space that could politely be described as overhead storage, this is a HUGE problem.

Why am I berthing the DropShip crews on my WarShips? The DropShips only dock with the WarShip for jumps, resupplies, etc and they already have their own crew quarters, so their crews can stay where they are.

Dropships have been described as being uncomfortable and with iffy air recycling and a unique smell to them in the books

Some DropShip designs might have those issues and perhaps only after the fall of the Star League and the decline of manufacturing. Do you have a particular SLDF DropShip design in mind that had such problems during the Star League era?

and even at the height of the SLDF you're probably going to run into habitability problems if you keep the crews onboard these small, short ranged vessels for a long period of time.

But the quarters in a DropShip get the same tonnage as the quarters in a WarShip, so there's no reason the former should be worse than the latter. Range, or endurance to use a more correct measure, is a matter of cargo space and that can always be supplemented by friendly ships.

Yep but if you're using a Potemkin as an freighter, unless you're Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox you're doing something wrong.

Or if you're the SLDF and have plenty of other WarShips for your other needs. Using a Potemkin reduces the number of WarShips you require to escort your troop DropShips, potentially removes the need to provide additional WarShips to escort the JumpShips that would otherwise have to deliver those DropShops, and also gives you an on the spot self-escorting supply base. For a ground force orientated military, which is what the SLDF was become post-Reunification War and remained until Admiral Peterson's reforms, it probably makes a lot of sense.

As for the Potemkin' supposed fuel issues, that fluff dates from the Star League sourcebook, which was published before TRO2750, which was in turn published before there were any form of design rules for large craft. It's no wonder the fluff makes little sense.

[glitterboy2098]

Because it still creates imbalances.  The old 2750 book said the Potemkin was hamstrung by her being reliant on tankers due to the huge fuel consumption loads of her dropships in a combat environment.  So where are those tankers?  Would you use other dropships, because they need fuel too. 

you know, it occurs to me that situations like that might explain why most Star league warships were 50% cargo space.. why build dedicated tanker ships when you can just load up the entire escorting task force with fuel bladders and transfer it over with a few specialized dropships?  ???

[Jellico]

It should be remembered (as I'm sure many do) that the Houses and SLDF deserve very different criticism. Sure, the Star League should have been more efficient or well rounded, but if warships are a dime a dozen why not use a nimitz as a car carrier (not a perfect analogy, but why not)?

It is not a silly analogy. In WWII frontline aircraft carriers were routinely used to ferry land based aircraft.

you know, it occurs to me that situations like that might explain why most Star league warships were 50% cargo space.. why build dedicated tanker ships when you can just load up the entire escorting task force with fuel bladders and transfer it over with a few specialized dropships?  ???

It has been suggested before.
Post Reunification War hostile fleets don't exist. The main threat is asymmetric warfare.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Honestly were is the call for anything more than a Starlord with a Mammoth, Vengeance, and four Avengers?

Guardians of the Galaxy 3? (sorry)

It is not a silly analogy. In WWII frontline aircraft carriers were routinely used to ferry land based aircraft.

Original intent was the same for Shinano, as I recall.  Regards the Potemkins, they always struck me as "how to transport a bunch of troopships on the cheap when you don't want to risk civilian shipping" - that 25% cargo fraction said 'spares and consumables onboard' in addition to the large number of dropships.

Another thing to point out is that her only real ammunition requirement is missiles - there's not a NAC or NGauss aboard.  That feels like the starship equivalent of a flashbulb 'Mech, something that's supposed to operate without needing a lot of resupply. And in this case, Potemkin carries a massive amount of cargo (more than the mass of some warships) anyway.  Hell, it's almost like you could take one of those into the deep and send it lurking around a long trip to sneak-attack an unsuspecting target on its own, and still drop a division on a world.  Think about it; a couple transports to balance out requirements, a couple Avengers and Achilles for escort duty, and a bunch of assault transports to move your ground forces.  Go disappear for two or three months, using that giant cargo space for fuel and whatever else, and then reappear on a nation's back patio without warning.  And you only need one WarShip to do this with, not a whole fleet.

Potemkins almost sound like the biggest threat a House can face; they're able to just up and disappear with their cargo cap and show up wherever you least want them to be.  Interstellar raiding at division scale, with WarShip backup (that's a LOT of HNPPCs) is just the thing to keep the Houses in line.

[Wrangler]

One rule i never like ( i know there was reasons) that WarShip can not move while it has any DropShips attached. 

Give how the rules were, Dropships were safer attached than detached if there was heavy WarShip concentration near by.  I'm not sure if AT2 didn't mention they could not be attached.

I do recall a Mjolnir in the novel Blood of Skye depicted that the Yggdrasil only detached it's Dropship compliment only until it got range of Skye, not before then to engage the Emerald Talon.

[SD501st]

I do recall a Mjolnir in the novel Blood of Skye depicted that the Yggdrasil only detached it's Dropship compliment only until it got range of Skye, not before then to engage the Emerald Talon.

Out of curiosity, and since I do not possess the novel in question, how did the Yggdrasil fare against the Emerald Talon(a Nightlord if I remember correctly)? I would assume that the Emerald Talon was defeated, but was it a hard fought battle or a curbstomp? How much of a difference did the dropships and aerospace fighters make in the fight? I need input details! [drool]

[Arkansas Warrior]

Not well, if we can take Sarna's word for it.[/font]




Ok, where is this stupid "[ /font ]" thing coming from?  I've deleted it three times, and every time I save, there it is again. And why is it making the entire post a URL?  I put [ /url ] after the original sentence.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Damn it, I don't know what's going on with my previous post.  Here's the URL: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yggdrasil_(Individual_Mjolnir-class_WarShip)#The_Dark_Age

[SD501st]

I've already read the Sarna article but let's just say it is lacking exactly the details I am interested in. ::)
Thanks for the link anyway.

Also, according to Sarna the Yggdrasil is still in service, guarding Hesperus II in 3145... that would make the Lyran Commonwealth one of the few factions with access to a real Warship(and second only to the Leviathans in terms of armor, to boot!).

[Weirdo]

From what I recall of the novel, fighters and DropShips were largely a nonentity in that fight. The gist was that both ships closed with each other head on and exchanged shots at range, with Yggy taking it worse(along other things, the captain was killed, and an observing DropShip skipper took temporary command). When they passed broadside, Emerald Talon let rip(doing more damage), but Yggdrasil held fire until they passed, then yawed and shoved a close-range salvo up the Nightlord's drive cones, largely disabling them. At that point the battle was essentially over, as the Lyran ship had taken too much damage to keep fighting a serious opponent, and the Talon's maneuverability was crippled for the time being. Yggdrasil jumped out shortly afterward.

Tactically, the battle was a draw, with both ships unable to keep fighting. Strategically, it was a Lyran victory, as Emerald Talon was no longer a threat to their DropShips or ground forces in that system, and Yggdrasil wasn't needed for any more of their plans.

This was a Mjolnir's ideal engagement, a close-range brawl against a single opponent. It's unsurprising that the Nightlord fared worse, as that ship is more optimized for fighting large numbers of DropShips and smaller WarShips, as opposed to a single big enemy.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I've already read the Sarna article but let's just say it is lacking exactly the details I am interested in. ::)
Thanks for the link anyway.

Also, according to Sarna the Yggdrasil is still in service, guarding Hesperus II in 3145... that would make the Lyran Commonwealth one of the few factions with access to a real Warship(and second only to the Leviathans in terms of armor, to boot!).

Ok.  You seemed to think the Ygg would have gotten the better of the Talon, and the article says the Lyran ship 'barely survived', so I didn't think you'd read it.  My mistake.

[Iron Mongoose]

One thing is is indicative of is tactics in an era where warships are, if not lostech then the next best thing.  The Falcons have a large and powerful fleet, and even the loss of their largest and proudest ship would be a fair trade for 100% of their enemy's fleet, while the Lyrans have no doubts of the idea  living to fight another day. 

[Wrangler]

Yggdrasil was badly damaged, last time checked.  Lyrans didn't have any significant shipyards left that could service her properly.   She a Fox Corvette is all they have left.   Falcon's have at least 3 ships left after the "War of Reavings" aka Civil War, minus Emerald Talon.

[mbear]

So after reading the first few responses before the thread drifted into logistical issues, it sounds like the Lyrans created a WarShip equivalent to the Hunchback. Big cannons and slow, but deadly when close to an enemy. Fair assessment?

[Weirdo]

Not really slow as far as WarShips go, but otherwise yeah. :)

[Arkansas Warrior]

Perhaps more like a Blitzkrieg, really.  Pretty fast, for its size.

[BrokenMnemonic]

Having read through First Succession War a few times, I'm curious if the Mjolnir class was intended to spend a fair amount of its time as a class defending strategically important systems like Hesperus, rather than tasks that required it to go long distances. I'm thinking of situations like the Combine or FWL attacks on Hesperus II that arrived and found squadrons of Tharkads waiting for them, only updated to the 31st Century and Clan Whoever'swinningtoday turning up with their WarShips. Hitting advanced Clan WarShips in the face with something designed to be a big, short-range hammer feels very Lyran.

[HobbesHurlbut]

It is not a silly analogy. In WWII frontline aircraft carriers were routinely used to ferry land based aircraft.

And destroyers often get refueled from the carriers and/or battleships they escorted as they do from replenishment ships and tankers.

[Flieger]

Yggdrasil was badly damaged, last time checked.  Lyrans didn't have any significant shipyards left that could service her properly.   

The Gibbs yards were upgraded to service WarShips after the Jihad. Even if they were less than optimal to deal with a ship the size of the Yggdrasil (were they, though?), they had ten years to repair the ship.