Author Topic: Combined Arms questions  (Read 2928 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #30 on: 24 March 2017, 00:20:09 »
I am very suspicious of the Hanse RCT. It comes from an era made to make Hanse look good when his great strategic insight was to mass his forces in an age when people used small raiding forces.

In this context the RCT looks more like padding out numbers with tanks.

Wasn't the FedSuns RCT created in the 2nd SW by Melissa Davion a couple hundred years before Hanse was born?
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Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #31 on: 24 March 2017, 00:27:31 »
deathfrombeyond is right. I think, we should distinguish between "heavy on combat vehicles" and "heavy on combined arms." Davions are heavy on combat vehicles for sure, but do they use real combined arms tactics, apart from the mentioned regiments?

For me a Capellan augmented lance is the combined arms formation. Capellans developed this tactics during the Jihad. Since Fa Shih was mentioned, I recon you are setting a game during the late Civil War or very early Jihad. So, the question...

Other than the Ceti Hussars, I have yet seen any fluff that mixes Battlemechs, tanks and infantry together in the AFFS. Just because an RCT has so much doesn't mean that they are deployed tactically in combined arms formations.

The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

No, its not ELH Mixed Lances level, really only the Ceti Hussars & Comstar do that.
Even the Cappies aren't mixing "lances" its more they are reinforcing them w/ support units to create mixed companies.
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The Eagle

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #32 on: 24 March 2017, 07:56:54 »
Ontos is actually produced in the FWL, on Shiro III in the Duchy of Andurien.  But Grumman exports it to anybody who wants it.


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Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #33 on: 25 March 2017, 17:24:12 »
Ontos is actually produced in the FWL, on Shiro III in the Duchy of Andurien.  But Grumman exports it to anybody who wants it.

I thought there were multiple factories, 1 in the FC & 1 in the CC,  I swore I've seen it produced elsewhere.

EDIT.

Found it, another factory on Nanking & both were originally owned by the CC before being lost to the FWL & FC respectively.

So its common in all 3 realms
« Last Edit: 25 March 2017, 17:30:05 by Hellraiser »
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ajcbm

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #34 on: 25 March 2017, 20:40:58 »
The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

No, its not ELH Mixed Lances level, really only the Ceti Hussars & Comstar do that.
Even the Cappies aren't mixing "lances" its more they are reinforcing them w/ support units to create mixed companies.

err... No. An Augmented Lance is exactly what it says. A Combined-Arms Lance from the very start. They are not reinforcement.

fyi... the CCAF have Augmented Regiments by 3145.

Wrangler

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #35 on: 27 March 2017, 09:24:10 »
I forgot about Duchy of Audurien.  The 1st Defenders of Andurien had seriously reinforced Regiment.  In 3025 they were listed as reinforced regiment, but they had a really odd structured force. Essently the reinforcements were 26 additional lances consisting of combat vehicles, artillery batteries, and aerospace fighters. Due to the age of the source book it mentioned, it didn't break down like later Field Manuals into attached independent regiments/battalions/fighter wings/etc.  These conventional reinforcements were directly attached to Mech regiment and used solely from what source info was to protect capital.
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deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #36 on: 27 March 2017, 14:16:35 »
The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.

Source?
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Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #38 on: 27 March 2017, 14:41:11 »
  I would also add that in the FedCom Civil War sourcebook RCTs would sometimes detach subunits to different planets and these were invariably mixed composition units.  Plus, in the NAIS Atlas, they frequently show RCTs dividing their mech, infantry, and armor units into company or battalion sized components and mixing them together.  From this it would appear that a Davion RCT functions at least somewhat similar to a real life RCT.
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deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #39 on: 27 March 2017, 15:07:52 »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regimental_combat_team
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_command

I was more looking for a source from some BattleTech book, rather than how real life RCTs/Combat Commands operate.

I mean, a Star League Division is a much different animal than a US Army/USMC division, right? At the very least, a Star League Division has organic fixed wing support. As I understand it, a US Army division does not have organic fixed wing support outside of the Airborne divisions.
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Kidd

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #40 on: 27 March 2017, 15:24:43 »
I was more looking for a source from some BattleTech book, rather than how real life RCTs/Combat Commands operate.

I mean, a Star League Division is a much different animal than a US Army/USMC division, right? At the very least, a Star League Division has organic fixed wing support. As I understand it, a US Army division does not have organic fixed wing support outside of the Airborne divisions.
Oh sorry I misunderstood.

"Combat command" in Battletech fiction/sourcebooks is sometimes interchangeable with "task force", but can also refer specifically to the Federated Suns' Ceti Hussars regiments which operate Combat Commands supposedly inspired by Star League RCTs; each Fed Suns-style RCT breaks its Mech, armour, infantry etc. forces into thirds and fight as 3 combined-arms units.

Though as noted, since practically all Successor States practice combined-arms to different extents, the uniqueness of the Ceti Hussars' Combat Commands is simply that they train and fight in this manner more than other regiments do.

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #41 on: 27 March 2017, 15:52:53 »
Oh sorry I misunderstood.

"Combat command" in Battletech fiction/sourcebooks is sometimes interchangeable with "task force", but can also refer specifically to the Federated Suns' Ceti Hussars regiments which operate Combat Commands supposedly inspired by Star League RCTs; each Fed Suns-style RCT breaks its Mech, armour, infantry etc. forces into thirds and fight as 3 combined-arms units.

Though as noted, since practically all Successor States practice combined-arms to different extents, the uniqueness of the Ceti Hussars' Combat Commands is simply that they train and fight in this manner more than other regiments do.


Apologies, I should have been more specific. 

I was looking for some BattleTech source that supports the claim that the RCTs of the Federated Suns canonically all have Combat Commands that integrate armor and infantry to 'Mech forces below the battalion level as claimed by the following quote.

I mean, otherwise, this statement about Combat Commands is just moving the goalposts to non canon status, right?

The Term Combat Command pretty much comes directly from how RCT's operate.
The regiments of an RCT are trained to work closely together & regularly mix smaller Company-Battalion sized units from several regiments into Mixed Combat Commands to operate on missions together.
« Last Edit: 27 March 2017, 15:59:30 by deathfrombeyond »
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Kidd

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #42 on: 27 March 2017, 20:26:16 »
I was looking for some BattleTech source that supports the claim that the RCTs of the Federated Suns canonically all have Combat Commands that integrate armor and infantry to 'Mech forces below the battalion level as claimed by the following quote.
Well, uh... basically all Successor State Mech regiments operate with attached units. Fedsuns RCTs dictate who those attached units are, so the units are more familiar with each other and work more effectively/efficiently together. That much is certainly canon.

The nature of BT combat is that combined arms is definitely the way to go, and we have quite a few instances in the fiction of RCTs fielding task forces of Mech lances supported by tanks and infantry. Mechs aside*, the various combat arms in BT don't usually fight in homogenous individual battalions, so it can be deduced if not explicitly stated that the original statement is correct.

*due to their superior mobility, firepower and survivability combined

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #43 on: 28 March 2017, 01:22:12 »
Well, uh... basically all Successor State Mech regiments operate with attached units. Fedsuns RCTs dictate who those attached units are, so the units are more familiar with each other and work more effectively/efficiently together. That much is certainly canon.

With all due respect, if it is canon, where is the canon source that says so? Moreover, if Federated Suns RCTs routinely operate in terms of combined arms Combat Commands, why are there separate commanders for the infantry, armor, aerospace and 'Mech components of an RCT?

I mean, I can cite where the Ceti Hussar/St. Ives Janissaries Combat Commands come from. I can cite where augmented lances and augmented companies come from. I can cite where Com Guard Level IIs aren't necessarily pure formations.

I don't think I've ever seen a canon source that says that the 'Mech forces of a Federated Suns RCT routinely combine arms below the battalion/company level.
« Last Edit: 28 March 2017, 01:44:45 by deathfrombeyond »
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Archangel

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #44 on: 28 March 2017, 02:43:40 »
The AFFC/AFFS deployed two kinds of combat commands - permanent and temporary/adhoc.  Only the Ceti Hussars formed permanent combat commands, the rest of the military use temporary combat commands which were organized according to need/availability.  For example, during the FCCW, the 5th Donegal Guards RCT deployed a combat command to Kentares IV to secure the planet in Katherine's name.  In instances like that, the combat command could alternatively be called a task force.  On occasion, a combat command will be formed to participate in a campaign and will be so large as to require that a Field Marshal be put in command.

While there are numerous instances of RCTs deploying units drawn from the different branches into the field (for a patrol, securing a checkpoint, a raid, etc), I don't recall them being called a combat command although I guess technically the term could apply to them as well.
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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #45 on: 14 April 2017, 02:42:31 »
With all due respect, if it is canon, where is the canon source that says so? Moreover, if Federated Suns RCTs routinely operate in terms of combined arms Combat Commands, why are there separate commanders for the infantry, armor, aerospace and 'Mech components of an RCT?

I mean, I can cite where the Ceti Hussar/St. Ives Janissaries Combat Commands come from. I can cite where augmented lances and augmented companies come from. I can cite where Com Guard Level IIs aren't necessarily pure formations.

I don't think I've ever seen a canon source that says that the 'Mech forces of a Federated Suns RCT routinely combine arms below the battalion/company level.
I think it goes back to original Davion source book, that's where RCT were first described.

Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #46 on: 16 April 2017, 23:06:08 »
I was looking for some BattleTech source that supports the claim that the RCTs of the Federated Suns canonically all have Combat Commands that integrate armor and infantry to 'Mech forces below the battalion level as claimed by the following quote.

1.  That isn't what I was saying.
I said they used Combat Commands as a formation, not that they are permanent.

2.  Sources.  I'm not at my books at the minute, but, from memory.
Original House Davion Source Book talks about RCT regiments working & training together better than regular commands.
Historical: War of 3039 & FedCom Civil War both discuss temporary Combat Commands formed from sections of RCTs to operate directly together on the same mission.

Possibly even FM:FS mentions what a combat command is & how they use parts of an RCT temporarily.

Then as you stated, there is the Ceti Hussars who have taken temporary Combat Commands & made them the permanent formation for the unit.



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glitterboy2098

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #47 on: 18 April 2017, 15:48:50 »
everytime we see a planetary assualt (not just a raid), we see fighters, artillery, armor, and infantry being brought along with the mechs. even by forces that don't have RCT's.

what seems to set the Davion RCT's apart is that they permanently attach the non-mech forces as part of a single constant command structure. this gives the RCT's better experiance in operating together, and ensures the force always has a sufficient mix (and training level).

prior to RCT's you assembled such formations on an adhoc basis based on what was available in that theater and time for the operation. this meant that many of the components would not be experienced in operating together, and you could not always be assured that all the components have sufficent skill levels and training in combined operations.

(it is telling that the Combine's response to the davion RCT's, at least the one spearheaded by Theodore Kurita's training program, was to train all their forces in such tactics, rather than create new units. though his was a grassroots program, and Takashi Kurita was wary of creating any more such formations other than the Ryuken, which he directly controlled.)

Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #48 on: 18 April 2017, 19:36:02 »
  True, although I think the number of conventional units used by non-RCT factions is sometimes overblown.  From the old House Steiner Book the Commonwealth uses about 3+ for every mech regiment, and in FM:FWL we get 3 for every mech regiment.  In the First Succession war book about 3 to 1 is the "normal" ratio (for example the Combine lead an offensive with 50 mech regiments and three times that number in infantry, armor, and aerospace), in the NAIS War Atlas the Combine made several attacks with seemingly only mech regiments and in the Combine book they lead several attacks with mech dominated task forces.  In the Clan Invasion the Combine rarely used independent armor forces (other than militia) to support their mech regiments. 

  Compare this with the RCTs 9 to 1 ratio of mechs to aerospace, artillery, infantry, and tanks and you get a sense of how support heavy RCTs are.  Although in all fairness RCTs are usually teamed with independent or mercenary mech regiments.

  Other than situations where a mech regiment is backing up a large planetary defense force my guess is the "usual" (quotation marks to emphases that there is a lot of variation with some forces having more or less support) task force will have a regiment of mechs, a wing of fighters, a battalion of mixed armor, a battalion of mobile artillery, and a couple regiments of infantry.
« Last Edit: 18 April 2017, 19:38:08 by Death by Lasers »
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Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #49 on: 19 April 2017, 00:27:04 »
  True, although I think the number of conventional units used by non-RCT factions is sometimes overblown.  From the old House Steiner Book the Commonwealth uses about 3+ for every mech regiment, and in FM:FWL we get 3 for every mech regiment.  In the First Succession war book about 3 to 1 is the "normal" ratio (for example the Combine lead an offensive with 50 mech regiments and three times that number in infantry, armor, and aerospace), in the NAIS War Atlas the Combine made several attacks with seemingly only mech regiments and in the Combine book they lead several attacks with mech dominated task forces.  In the Clan Invasion the Combine rarely used independent armor forces (other than militia) to support their mech regiments. 

  Compare this with the RCTs 9 to 1 ratio of mechs to aerospace, artillery, infantry, and tanks and you get a sense of how support heavy RCTs are.  Although in all fairness RCTs are usually teamed with independent or mercenary mech regiments.

  Other than situations where a mech regiment is backing up a large planetary defense force my guess is the "usual" (quotation marks to emphases that there is a lot of variation with some forces having more or less support) task force will have a regiment of mechs, a wing of fighters, a battalion of mixed armor, a battalion of mobile artillery, and a couple regiments of infantry. 

The #'s aren't overblown, so much as, the method of use & the training together.

I don't think I've ever seen any faction noted as having more or less Tanks/Infantry in their military than any other, short of the Periphery & Militias all being short on Mechs/ASF.

The IS as a whole has over 5 Tanks for every Mech & assuming the FS is similar to the rest, over 14 Infantry Squads for every mech.


It just comes down to 2 things.
How often does XYZ faction use Infantry/Tanks on the Offensive?
How does XYZ faction use Conventionals & Mechs together?

But does XYZ nation hate their vehicles & leave them only defensive jobs, or do they give them offensive (glory) goals?   And if they do use them on the offensive, is it solo missions or are they deployed right next to the mechs? (RCTs)


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Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #50 on: 19 April 2017, 02:45:07 »
  Oh yes I agree that roughly speaking the states probably have similar ratios of mech to convention regiments.  For example in the House Books (from the 80s) we know that the AFFS in 3025 had 118 regiments of mechs and over ten times that number in other regiments and that the FWLM had 60 mech regiments and 700 regiments of other units.  My main point being is that all the states don't necessarily use RCT style ratios when launching assaults and regulate their armor to mainly garrison duty.

  On the "five mech to tank" ratio though there is one thing.  I'm pretty sure the five-one ratio of armor to mechs you are referring to comes from FM Fed Suns although this number is a little deceptive.  FM Federated Suns divides the AFFS into four parts, the Regular Army (RCTs and independent line regiments), the Militia (planetary and march militias), Training Units, and Mercenaries.  According to the book the five to one number refers directly to the ratio of mechs to armor in the Regular Army and not to the entire AFFS.  Now apparently planetary militias are not part of the AFFS but March Militias are as they are included in the FM unlike the planetary militias.

  Using rough estimates (ie lots of rounding) for infantry, armor, and mechs (but not aeros as we aren't given complete data on these) the AFFS in FM:FS has about 50 Mech, 250 Armor, and 600 Infantry regiments in the Regular Army, 30 Mech, 60 Armor, and 150 Infantry regiments in the Militia, 10 Mech, 5 Armor, and 10 Infantry in Training Units, and 20 Mech, 10 Armor, and 20 Infantry in Mercenary Units.  This gives us a total of about 110 Battlemech, 325 Armor, and 790 Infantry Regiments for the AFFS or roughly ten conventional regiments per mech regiment.  This ratio matches that given in the Davion House Book that states that the AFFS has in 3025 118 Mech Regiments and a little over ten times that number in conventional units.

  It's somewhat of a moot point though because once you throw in the planetary militias the ratio would probably be bumped up to something approaching (or possibly exceeding) the five-to-one ratio anyway.

Edit: Corrected a typo.
« Last Edit: 23 April 2017, 13:51:48 by Death by Lasers »
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Kidd

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #51 on: 19 April 2017, 03:14:06 »
FYI

Standard Combat Command Compositions (3025), Interstellar Ops p.348

CCAF: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 2 Artillery battalions
DCMS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 3 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
AFFS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
FWLM: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 8 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
LCAF: 1 Mech, 5 Armour, 7 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion

Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #52 on: 19 April 2017, 19:49:59 »
FYI

Standard Combat Command Compositions (3025), Interstellar Ops p.348

  I own Interstellar Ops and know of the combat commands.  Interstellar ops uses The Combat Command System for simplification and gameplay purposes and it is an alternative to creating detailed armies (p. 348).  Personally I don't think every regiment (aside from mercs) having RCT style ancillary units with 9 or more support regiments matches the fluff very well but it's a fair enough source to make that claim with.
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SCC

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #53 on: 20 April 2017, 17:13:46 »
Detailed Armies doesn't work like that. Detailed Armies is the lists of all 'Mech units from books like 1SW.

Any wondering which set up is the most advantageous?

ajcbm

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #54 on: 21 April 2017, 12:45:08 »
It should be noted that transportation is a major factor in any combined arms set up. I don't think it was an accident that the Powers That Be never mention how many Jumpships/Dropships each realm has available. How many regiments can you move with dedicated military transports? How many if civilian transports added? How long before the economy collapses?

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #55 on: 22 April 2017, 01:43:10 »
My main point being is that all the states don't necessarily use RCT style ratios when launching assaults and regulate their armor to mainly garrison duty.
Actually a lot of the older fluff stories will not that XYZ mech regiment attached with 3 support regiments or 10 support regiments.
The LCAF has a lot of notations like that, or 3 Mech Regiments supported by 30 Conventional Regiments, etc etc.
They used them, they just didn't have them permanently attached & cross-trained like the FS RCT does.

Quote
  On the "five mech to tank" ratio though there is one thing.  I'm pretty sure the five-one ratio of armor to mechs you are referring to comes from FM Fed Suns although this number is a little deceptive.  FM Federated Suns divides the AFFS into four parts, the Regular Army (RCTs and independent line regiments), the Militia (planetary and march militias), Training Units, and Mercenaries.  According to the book the five to one number refers directly to the ratio of mechs to armor in the Regular Army and not to the entire AFFS.  Now apparently planetary militias are not part of the AFFS but March Militias are as they are included in the FM unlike the planetary militias.
Actually the "over 5-1" comes from TRO 3067 vehicle section intro IIRC.
March Militias are part of the "Militias" but because they are full Mech Regiments assigned to a Region they get covered in the text w/ all other mech units.


Quote
AFFS in FM:FS has about 50 Mech, 250 Armor, and 300 Infantry regiments in the Regular Army, 30 Mech, 60 Armor, and 150 Infantry regiments in the Militia, 10 Mech, 5 Armor, and 10 Infantry in Training Units, and 20 Mech, 10 Armor, and 20 Infantry in Mercenary Units.  This gives us a total of about 110 Battlemech, 325 Armor, and 790 Infantry Regiments for the AFFS or roughly ten conventional regiments per mech regiment.  This ratio matches that given in the Davion House Book that states that the AFFS has in 3025 118 Mech Regiments and a little over ten times that number in conventional units.
Your going to be off a bit there.
Because Infantry is 2/3 of all military forces in the AFFS
So total the Mech, ASF, & Tanks, then Double that for Infantry.

I go with the following.
Per Mech "Marker/Unit"
Tanks are Over 5 but less than 6 times as common as Mechs, so 5.33-5.5
ASF Are less common than Mechs but the only ratio that I have ever found is that the FWL produces about 2 Fighters for every 3 Mechs.  So call it 0.5-0.67 ASF to account for less ease of repair.
Collectively its about 6 Vee/ASF to 1 Mech.
So 7 is the Non-Infantry total.
Double that for 14 more in Infantry.

If we put that into AFFS RCT terms you get the following.

1 Mech Regiment (RCT)
3.33 Armor/Artillery Regiments
5 Infantry Regiments
2 Fighter Wings
PLUS
2 Armor Regiments:  (See Below)
9 Infantry  Regiments  (Grouped into a pair of brigades of 4-5 Infantry Regiments & 1 Tank Regiment
2 Fighter Wings:  (Assigned to Fleet Command Groups or Planetary System Defense.)



Now account for roughly 50% of all Mech Regiments not being RCTs but still having that amount of Fighters, Vehicles, & Infantry to account for.
You start to see just where all those (3 Mech Regiments + 30 Conventional Regiments) lines come from in the books, or, where those lines about unattached fighter wings/regiments come in.
There are plenty of conventional brigades to go around to have some on offense supporting invasions while others are stiffening up defense on major worlds that rate more than just PUG/Militia for defense.


The FS RCT just takes a decent amount of support troops & trains them to operate closely together so that you get better tactical coordination when assaulting a planet in force.
You'll still likely have those conventional support brigades following on to assist in conquest & assimilation of the populace, but the RCT gives you a decent starting force trained to work side by side with big walking giants that might accidentally step on someone that isn't used to being around them.   :)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #56 on: 22 April 2017, 01:45:58 »
FYI

Standard Combat Command Compositions (3025), Interstellar Ops p.348

CCAF: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 2 Artillery battalions
DCMS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 3 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
AFFS: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 5 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
FWLM: 1 Mech, 3 Armour, 8 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion
LCAF: 1 Mech, 5 Armour, 7 Infantry regiments, 2 Aero wings, 1 Artillery battalion

Interesting, this makes for a good example of all those "XYZ Mech Regiment supported by ABC Conventional Regiment" fluff lines.   Now there is an answer to "How many troops support an invasion?"
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #57 on: 22 April 2017, 02:07:27 »
It should be noted that transportation is a major factor in any combined arms set up. I don't think it was an accident that the Powers That Be never mention how many Jumpships/Dropships each realm has available. How many regiments can you move with dedicated military transports? How many if civilian transports added? How long before the economy collapses?

Its long been my opinion that most RCTs don't move the entire RCT in just Military Dropships.

Its far more efficient to move "Most" of the Mechs and "Some" of the Armor/Infantry in combat dropships & secure an LZ with that & bring the rest in on bulk cargo carriers.


"Sample RCT Transport Division"

Overlord
Union x3
Leopard x3
Excalibur
Triumph
Condor
Fury
Seeker
Avenger
Vengeance
Buccaneer
Mules  x3

Monolith
Invader  x3


The above force of 4 Jumpships & 18 Dropships shouldn't have too much difficulty moving an RCT 1-2 jumps across the boarder for an invasion and even contains an assault dropper & extra ASF wing to help clear the way to orbit.

A total of 96 Mechs can drop from orbit, 8 Companies, most of the Regiment, & more than enough to secure an LZ & destroy initial 1st wave targets.  (Radar, C3, Air Defenses, etc etc)

Even w/o a prepared LZ 3 battalions of tanks & an infantry company can be offloaded quickly in an open area with a 4th battalion & full Infantry battalion unloaded as soon as a runway is secure.
A 5th infantry company can be parachuting on another of those high priority 1st wave targets in support of a mech lance, etc etc.

Finally the 4 Cargo ships land & added regiments of Infantry, Tanks, Support Vehicles, & a few more companies of mechs off load & set up a base of operations.

With that beachhead made the Jumpers can move back to pick up an added wave of dropships & more troops.

I assume in the above, that 1 Invader, 2 Mules, & the Buccaneer are Civilian ships & gives us a good example of why sustained offensives need the merchant marine help & why the economy takes a hit when they do.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #58 on: 22 April 2017, 02:39:13 »
  Actually the 5-1 ratio is not for the entire AFFS because the book specifically says that is the ratio for the regular army (FM: Federated Suns, 23).  Also, in 3025 the AFFS in total was composed of "119 mech regiments" (notice the source includes march militias and mercenaries as a part of the AFFS like FM:FS does) and "more than ten times that number in aerospace fighters, infantry, and artillery" (House Davion: Federated Suns, 159).  Your 20+ conventional regiments per 1 mech regiment is massively off from canon.  Furthermore, the ratios of conventionals to mech regiments in invasions is usually much closer to 4 to 1 rather than 20 to 1 if you comb through the sourcebooks.  You only see large conventional compliments beyond this ratio in rare cases or with very large planetary militias like on Tikinov.

  I do like the idea that RCTs rarely have transport for all there conventionals though.  This is mentioned occasionally in canon, for example at Twycross the 10th Lyran dropped with only its mechs and at Huntress all the RCTs brought only a token armor force.

P.S.  I combed through TRO:3067 and under the vehicles section it states "conventional vehicles outnumber BattleMechs at a ratio of between three and five to one" (TRO 3067, pg.6).  So, even with planetary militias tanks only outnumber mechs somewhere between 3 and 5 to 1 in the Inner Sphere in aggregate.  Awesome source O0
« Last Edit: 22 April 2017, 03:56:54 by Death by Lasers »
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Hellraiser

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #59 on: 22 April 2017, 16:15:17 »
Quote
Also, in 3025 the AFFS in total was composed of "119 mech regiments" (notice the source includes march militias and mercenaries as a part of the AFFS like FM:FS does) and "more than ten times that number in aerospace fighters, infantry, and artillery" (House Davion: Federated Suns, 159).  Your 20+ conventional regiments per 1 mech regiment is massively off from canon
You do realize that 20 is "More than 10" right?
That statement from 3025 does not invalidate the additional math from TRO3067 & FM:FS


Quote
Furthermore, the ratios of conventionals to mech regiments in invasions is usually much closer to 4 to 1 rather than 20 to 1 if you comb through the sourcebooks.  You only see large conventional compliments beyond this ratio in rare cases or with very large planetary militias like on Tikinov.
Not every conventional unit is going to go on the Offensive.
Any smart commander is going to leave garrison troops on his own worlds.
Or do you think that every world is stripped of every last infantryman when someone goes on the offensive?
Tikonov had, IIRC 8 Full/Partial Mech Regiments & 80 Conventional Regiments.
So a 10-1 Ratio for that important world.  But the CapCon still had other Conventional Regiments on all nearby worlds even if they didn't rate a Mech force.  That would be where the rest of that 20-ish to 1 ratio would be deployed.


Quote
P.S.  I combed through TRO:3067 and under the vehicles section it states "conventional vehicles outnumber BattleMechs at a ratio of between three and five to one" (TRO 3067, pg.6).  So, even with planetary militias tanks only outnumber mechs somewhere between 3 and 5 to 1 in the Inner Sphere in aggregate.  Awesome source O0
That might not be the source that I'm thinking of, I'm going by memory, but if it is then the Regular Army has a higher than normal level of tanks which I'm fine with.

So lets rework that at a ratio of 4 to 1 then to split the difference between 3 & 5 with ASF at 0.5 gives you 5.5 Regiments of Non-Infantry.
With infantry being 2/3 of the regular army we get 11 Infantry Regiments.

So instead of 1BM to 0.67AS to 5.33CV to 14 Infantry, we get, 1BM to 0.5AS, to 4CV to 11INF.
This drops the Non Mech troops to Mechs from 20-1 down to 15.5 to 1.

We know that in Militias the % of Infantry goes up, & this makes sense since the Reg Army is 5+ Tanks per Mech while the IS whole is only 3-5 (4) per mech, so those extra tanks would be cut out of the Milita ranks dropping them to a "Just under 3-1" rate or a 1BM-0.5AS-2.9CV-11Inf
 (We are not actually required to have 11 Inf Regiments as just 9 would still be a boost over the 2/3rds rate quote, but we are not limited to 11 either & it could be quite a bit higher)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

 

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