Author Topic: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser  (Read 5193 times)

The Eagle

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Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« on: 16 March 2017, 09:06:24 »
The Menelaus is one of only two surviving FWLN WarShips, and I'd like to know more about it and it's capabilities from our more aerospace inclined members.  From  layman's perspective, it has a decent armament and a solid fighter complement, but the armor looks atrociously low.

Is this a good ship or not?
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marauder648

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #1 on: 16 March 2017, 10:13:48 »
The Agamemnon is what happens when a 3050 era Hellbringer/Loki has a fever dream about being big. REALLY big. 

The Aggy is horrifically, terrifyingly fragile. Its armour is more based on happy thoughts, crossed fingers and feverent prayer, and this backed up by very very very light structural integrity that gives it one hell of a glass jaw.

This is then promptly combined with a rather polygot armament that lacks the capacity to bracket fire and thus successfully engage at long range, meaning you've got to get close.  Which in something this fragile is terrifying. 

The good points are its very nice anti-missile defences and not bad anti-fighter armament.  18 fighters and 4 dropships is nice but you've got to look at this doctrinally.  The Aggy was probably not meant to go around alone.  Rather it would be part of a Thera class carriers escort group, probably playing goalkeeper for the big carrier.  As part of an integrated taskforce that might be 1 Thera, 2 Eagles and 1 Aggy its fine, but alone, its horrifically vulnerable, with little more armour than a SLDF era destroyer and about the same structural strength.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #2 on: 16 March 2017, 10:21:41 »
Marauder hit it on the head (which means it probably penetrated the Aggie's armor).

Like Marik ground forces, individual units tend to look a little haggard compared to similar units from other nations. But as part of a unified group (ironically enough for Marik), they work well together. It's a cog in a larger machine, rather than a stand-alone unit. We're used to seeing that from ground units, but it's just as true for their naval forces.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #3 on: 16 March 2017, 11:32:07 »
Is this a good ship or not?

Honestly, not really. It's got plenty of good points, but that thin shell drags it down, as does poor bracketing ability. That said, it's not quite the deathtrap many people portray it as. Use it right, and you can get a fair amount of utility out of this ship.

At 4/6, the Agamemnon's speed is fairly average for a modem IS cruiser(it exactly matches every other House cruiser save the psychotic Kirishima), though against the ex-SL Clan ships it was likely built to counter, it would have an advantage, especially against the ponderous Cameron, Sovetskii Soyuz, and Aegis classes that make up so much of the invaders' fleets. Given the amount of Blakist assistance went into these ships, I'm pretty sure more than a few minds were also envisioning taking these vessels against the Com Guard Navy, even if the planners in question weren't the Agamemnons' legal owners. This speed advantage lets you dictate the range, outmaneuver your opponent if the fight gets close, or match maneuvers while keeping some thrust in reserve for ECHOs.

Fighter and DropShip capacity is decent, enough to provide your own escorts, though you'll need more if your Aggie is going to be leading a task force. In terms of fighters it carries more than the Avalon or Kirishima, but less than the Feng Huang or Mjolnir. DropShip capacity is similarly middle of the road, having more than the Kirishima, matching the Mjolnir, but falling behind the Avalon and Feng Huang.

That armor...ugh. Don't take hits. If you do get hit, don't take more hits to the same spot. Sounds simple, but given the lack of terrain or movement mods in space, you need to use every little modifier you can get. Angle of attack mods, evasive maneuvers, ECM...you need to use it all, even at the expense of your own to-hit numbers. My advice is to put a rank coward at your helm, and tell him he can fly however he wants, provided he keeps target X at least within the long range bracket. If his piloting skills are as strong as his self-preservation instincts, you just might last a lot longer than most people might expect. It goes without saying that the Agamemnon ranks behind every other House cruiser in this category.

The guns are a mix of good news and utter disappointment. They come *this* close to making the Agamemnon genuinely scary(even with the armor problems), but lets us down in just a couple subtle yet significant ways. Total firepower is VERY nice, with a solid mix of heavy and light capital guns that can do real damage at any range. The Aggie actually makes it to second place in our cruiser lineup here, with only the Mjolnir packing more heat, and even that monster is at a notable disadvantage at long range. Even better, you've got the heat sinks to use those guns, only needing to drop a single firing arc per turn to stay under your limit. While being surrounded may seem like a very bad idea, it does mean that incoming fire well be spread around all of your armor facings instead of concentrating on one or two and punching through that much more quickly. While I still wouldn't recommend getting in close with enemy WarShips, this can be of great use when facing a swarm of DropShips and fighters.

Now for the bad news. While you've got long-range firepower galore, most of those guns are mounted in twin turrets instead of triples or quads, so you can't bracket that well, thus limiting the full potential of your firepower. Most of the other House cruisers are also poor bracketers, but Star League-vintage ships may very well peck you to pieces while range penalties are making several of your shots fly wide. To compound this issue, the NACs that are the bulk of your armament have limited ammunition bays. The 30s only have ten rounds per gun, and the triple-20 mount in the aft quarter that is your most reliable damage-dealer only has 16 shells per gun. You're encouraged to fight from long range, but your accuracy is going to be spotty, and you can't afford to spray and pray from back there lest you run the guns dry. You're also completely lacking in capital missiles, so you can't use bearings-only shots to try and score some equalizing crits. On the upside, your extensive point defenses mean the odds of someone doing this to you aren't very good either.

Needless to say, an improved gunnery skill on an Agamemnon is worth its weight in gold, despite the astronomical BV cost you'll be paying for it.

Back to some good news. In terms of anti-fighter defenses, you're actually doing fairly nicely. Having a sizeable capital laser battery, solid 4-point can opener and a pair of 2-point crit seekers in each arc(and as above, the heat sinks to use almost all of them at once) means that no fighter squadron that makes it past your screen well emerge from an attack run unscathed, and several may not be in any condition to try for a second run. I would have liked more 2-point bays, but overall things aren't too bad.

All in all, I do have to rank the Agamemnon at the bottom of the House cruiser lineup, but not THAT far below everyone else. If you're taking an Agamemnon into battle the odds are not in your favor, but defeat is by no means assured. And even if you do go down in flames, the odds are actually very good that you'll leave the other guy with one hell of a repair bill.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #4 on: 16 March 2017, 11:39:41 »
Objectively, as a fighting warship, its terrible. To paraphrase Sleeping Beauty, its armor is a wish its heart makes, and while it has lots of guns, they're not well selected (though to its defense, I don't believe bracket fire was a rule when it was designed).

That said, as a ship that reflects its times, I do think it succeeds. Its designers had never seen a warship outside of storybooks, so you wouldn't expect them to do a good job. But, they had fought dropships and fighters, hence the diverse weapons array; the Aggie aside from hiding behind the cloud of fighters a Thera carries, I think wants to be a bully. It can crush dropships, it can deal with average numbers of fighters, and it could probably beat the only warship it was likely to face, the much lighter Fox, without getting too terribly beat up. In the 3150s, I think it could have a bit of life in it, since there are so few other warships left.

In the end, though, the FWL had just enough mojo for the Thera, and everything else, upto and including their very nationhood, sort of went to hell.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #5 on: 16 March 2017, 11:56:15 »
Very true. In the 3050s and 3060s, WarShip-on-WarShip fights were far less common than ones that pitted a single WarShip against a large number of DropShips. While just about any capital ship is likely to do well in that situation, an Agamemnon would have been particularly terrifying.

Honestly, I'm kinda sad that Aggies never saw action during Bulldog or Serpent, nor do I know of any engagements between a Blakist Agamemnon and the Clans during the Jihad. A fight between one of these and a Clan equivalent cruiser(basically, anything save a Black Lion) would be VERY interesting to see.
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Wrangler

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #6 on: 16 March 2017, 14:23:02 »
I never did understand why most of the FWL's "new" WarShips Classes were so horribly armored.  It like who made the stats used old BattleSpace one instead of AT2.  Using Star League style Armor vs rules made the Mjolnir and New Avalon scary armored Cruisers.
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Decoy

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #7 on: 16 March 2017, 14:28:55 »
I matched the Agamemnon vs. the Texas under BV1 a long while ago when both were equal in battle value. 4x4 maps did not give the Agamemnon enough room. The worst that happened to the Texas was a random crit to the KF Drive. The Agamemnon wound up as chaff.

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #8 on: 16 March 2017, 15:48:15 »
It like who made the stats used old BattleSpace one instead of AT2.

Battlespace was the most current ruleset when they were first published.
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The Eagle

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #9 on: 16 March 2017, 16:28:12 »
Thank you guys for the break down.  So as part of a Thera group, it would have been scary, and in the Dark Ages' "WarShips are rare" paradigm, it can be scary despite its thin shell.  Good to know.  Thanks again!
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #10 on: 16 March 2017, 16:55:32 »
Where are we told that it operated with the Theras? Everything I've read only talks about the Eagles being assigned to carrier groups, never anything saying any of the other ships were.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #11 on: 16 March 2017, 17:05:58 »
Battlespace was the most current ruleset when they were first published.
Wish they had fixed them.  The Aggy needs stay away from the big fire being layed out by anything has SubCaps and up if wants to survive.   

It would been interesting to have seen Agamemnon operate as was originally intended with the Thera Battlegroup. 

League were only ones to have assemble a near balance fleet of some kind.  Had the Combine's navy big project had not been cut (what i think was author fiat as believe the anti-Warship moment got into play.) it would had a nice fleet to go against the League and properly beat tar out of both the House Steiner and Federated Suns who's fleet were barely assemblance of Foxes and Avalon/Mjolnirs (barely 2 of the later).
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The Eagle

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #12 on: 16 March 2017, 17:36:02 »
Where are we told that it operated with the Theras? Everything I've read only talks about the Eagles being assigned to carrier groups, never anything saying any of the other ships were.

I'm not sure we were, actually; I know for my part I always assumed it, though.  Each of the Carrier Groups consisting of four ships -- the carrier, two escort frigates, and one cruiser as a command vessel/bully -- fits nicely into the aforementioned "greater sum of lesser parts" doctrine that seems to permeate Marik military designs.  That leaves the Zecs and Impavidos and the recovered SLDF ships like Nueva Badajoz and Xanthos as outliers, though.
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marauder648

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #13 on: 17 March 2017, 01:15:49 »
The Zec's to me are the patrol boats, they are also rather fast and pack a wallop too, but like other FWL ships are verrrry fragile.  The Impvadio's would probably also work as patrol boats in more high risk areas where showing off a DD makes a bit more of a statement. 

I can't remember how many ships the FWL had recovered from SLDF hulks but wasn't it something like 20+ ships if not more?  But they were not publically acknowledged until the WOB did Grand Theft Battlefleet and took 99% of them.
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The Eagle

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #14 on: 17 March 2017, 06:58:22 »
It actually wasn't that many.  Off the top of my head, there's the Xanthos (Black Lion-class), Nueva Badajoz and Olympic (iAegis-class), Raven and Schrack (Essex-class), and a Vincent or two.  I'm pretty sure everything else was home-grown.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #15 on: 17 March 2017, 07:05:27 »
I can't remember how many ships the FWL had recovered from SLDF hulks but wasn't it something like 20+ ships if not more?
5-6. One Black Lion, one or two Aegii(depends on how you count Olympic, which was actually a FWLN vessel from the SL era), two Essexes, and one Vincent.
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marauder648

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #16 on: 17 March 2017, 08:14:56 »
Ahh cheers for clearing that up, I thought they had a far larger contingent, but I assume those were WoB ships that were reactivated/pulled from the Ruins of Gabriel etc.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #17 on: 17 March 2017, 12:25:16 »
IIRC, officially they were wrecks/abandoned hulls the WOB directed them to. however i would not be surprised if the WOB didn't emplace a few ships to be found.

The Eagle

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #18 on: 17 March 2017, 13:54:47 »
IIRC, officially they were wrecks/abandoned hulls the WOB directed them to. however i would not be surprised if the WOB didn't emplace a few ships to be found.

In all my time (re)reading the WarShip sections of FM:FWL, it never once occurred to me that the WoB would do something like that. . . but that is very in keeping with their modus operandi.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #19 on: 18 March 2017, 20:04:15 »
In all my time (re)reading the WarShip sections of FM:FWL, it never once occurred to me that the WoB would do something like that. . . but that is very in keeping with their modus operandi.

That actually DOES make a lot of sense. Even if it's not canon per se, I'll make it my head-canon.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #20 on: 19 March 2017, 11:57:26 »
WoB fleet hidden out in the open.

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The Eagle

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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #21 on: 19 March 2017, 13:59:17 »
Yes, well.  The extent of the Word's infiltration of the FWLM -- not just the navy, but the 'Mech regiments, too -- always rubbed me the wrong way.  I wouldn't have minded them stealing a few WarShips and maybe a couple regiments, but they suborned the majority of the FWLN and, what, half a dozen regiments?  It just seemed excessive to me, though I understand why they did it. . . Had to eliminate the WarShips.
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Re: Tell me about...the Agamemnon class heavy cruiser
« Reply #22 on: 04 April 2017, 23:45:23 »
My advice is to put a rank coward at your helm, and tell him he can fly however he wants, provided he keeps target X at least within the long range bracket.
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