Author Topic: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans  (Read 1344 times)

Deadborder

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Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« on: 16 March 2017, 19:55:57 »
Quick question. By 3130, the Capellan Confederation had captured three worlds from the Taurians, Laconis, Brisbane and Bromhead (The latter of which was taken from the FedSuns by the Taurians during the Jihad). Is there any information as to when this happened? The three worlds are still in the Concordat as of the Victoria war, but there's no maps of the region between 3103 and 3130. If there's some reference as to when this happened, I seem to have missed this.
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Kojak

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #1 on: 04 April 2017, 18:01:41 »
I researched this quite heavily a few years back when I did a TtS-esque writeup of Laconis for one of my campaigns, and the short answer is no, there doesn't appear to be any canon explanation. Given the apparent timing, though, I surmised it might have been a chastened Daoshen, fresh off the humiliation of his defeat in the Capellan Crusades, choosing to lash out at a weakened neighbor to demonstrate his strength to his foes, lest they smell weakness. But obviously that is 100% conjecture on my part.
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VhenRa

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #2 on: 19 April 2017, 14:51:41 »
Quick question. By 3130, the Capellan Confederation had captured three worlds from the Taurians, Laconis, Brisbane and Bromhead (The latter of which was taken from the FedSuns by the Taurians during the Jihad). Is there any information as to when this happened? The three worlds are still in the Concordat as of the Victoria war, but there's no maps of the region between 3103 and 3130. If there's some reference as to when this happened, I seem to have missed this.

I researched this quite heavily a few years back when I did a TtS-esque writeup of Laconis for one of my campaigns, and the short answer is no, there doesn't appear to be any canon explanation. Given the apparent timing, though, I surmised it might have been a chastened Daoshen, fresh off the humiliation of his defeat in the Capellan Crusades, choosing to lash out at a weakened neighbor to demonstrate his strength to his foes, lest they smell weakness. But obviously that is 100% conjecture on my part.

Actually, if you check Kaff Doru's profile in ER 3145...

Well, it says in ER3145 that he lied about his age to see service against the Capellan encroachment on the Concordat. Thats PROBABLY Laconis and it's nearby worlds.

In 3145 he is 56 years old. That means the events occurred around ~40 years prior. Which means... its probably right after the Victoria War, not the Capellan Crusades.

sillybrit

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #3 on: 22 April 2017, 12:59:24 »
"From the 3090s to 3128, the Concordat saw a gradual loss of worlds from its sphere of influence. The Capellan Confederation preyed upon its former ally, capturing the worlds of the “Laconis Front”." (FM3145 p185)

"From 3122 to 3137, the Second Highlanders were deployed on the Capellan worlds of Brisbane, Bromhead, and Laconis. As each of these worlds was formerly a part of the Taurian Concordat, they were continually raided by forces from the TDF." (FM3145 p193)

The map on WotRE p62 shows the three worlds are still part of the TauCon after the end of the Victoria War in Jan 3105.

So from the above we can deduce that the CapCon invaded Brisbane, Bromhead, and Laconis after Jan 3105 and before 3122, making it very likely indeed that this is the CapCon aggression VhenRa points out in Kaff's fluff. There aren't any other TauCon worlds conquered by the CapCon during this time frame, nor any mention of worlds conquered, but then re-taken.

It could be argued that Kaff joined the TDF in response to the loss of the three worlds, not that he actually fought in their defense, but the wording in his fluff in ER3145 strongly implies he fought during the actual invasion.

"Kaff entered the Taurian Defense Force even before he was old enough, lying about his age in order to see service against the Capellan encroachment on Taurian space" (ER3145 p112)

Given that Kaff fought the CapCon prior to his 18th birthday, which was when his two year conscription in the TDF should have begun by TauCon law, then the date range for at least one invasion, if not all three, can be fine tuned to between Jan 3105 and sometime in 3107, depending upon which month Kaff was born.

Arguably, Kaff could have signed up due to CapCon raiding mentioned in FM3145, but the FedSuns were also raiding, so if it was just raiding that spurred him into action, then why specifically mention the CapCon? The CapCon invasion of Brisbane, Bromhead, and Laconis is a much more likely motivator.

ajcbm

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #4 on: 23 April 2017, 01:49:59 »
The word, "encroachment", is interesting. It implies moving in without violence. And why "raiding" instead of counter-invasion? No mention of any battles at all for these planets, just Taurian irritation.

This is interesting too:
"The carelessness with which Protector Urratia used the TDF wore the force down to less than three regiments of active units by the time Marshal Doru removed Urratia from office. The most recent reports from the Concordat show that the TDF is just now recovering its strength to the levels seen just after the end of the Jihad.
"

So the TDF poked a semi-insane Chancellor and got proportionally punished? The article also mentions the Fronc Reaches hitting them too.
What are the odds these planets rebelled against the Concordat and made a deal with the CapCon for protection?
« Last Edit: 23 April 2017, 01:59:31 by ajcbm »

sillybrit

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #5 on: 23 April 2017, 14:54:32 »
I'd say that the odds are remote. Note the second sentence of the first quote I posted:

"The Capellan Confederation preyed upon its former ally, capturing the worlds of the “Laconis Front”." (FM3145 p185)

If we're going to get into the game of analyzing the words used, then "preyed" and "capturing" imply aggression against an unwilling target.

As for why the TDF are just raiding and not counter-invading: raiding keeps their hand in the game without provoking a response from the CCAF that they would not be able to handle.

Archangel

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #6 on: 24 April 2017, 00:57:16 »
Of course when you are talking about Daoshen Liao even simply raiding might be too much.  He just might decide to have the 3rd MAC or the Death Commandos pay them a visit.  ;)
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sillybrit

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #7 on: 24 April 2017, 11:24:38 »
Very true, with Daoshen in charge there's always the possibility that whistling on a Tuesday is going to earn you a regimental-scale assault drop, but a counter-invasion would change a possibility to a certainty.

The CapCon is really, really possessive about territory it owns, visited on vacation or saw on a postcard, and I've no doubt that in many Capellan minds Brisbane, Bromhead and Laconis are now Capellan! and somehow have always been Capellan, with any claims to the contrary just filthy enemy propaganda.

Amusingly for any outside observers of the CapCon/TauCon confrontation, the Taurians have kind of the same mentality, maybe a little more rational, but still very clingy about what they see as theirs. Both factions can hold a grudge to the heat death of the universe, so these three worlds have the potential of being the focus of a lot of future conflict.

It's about time that these two factions butted heads, in my opinion. They had a major conflict at the start of the Age of War that was heavily watered down in a retcon, but after that it's been too quiet.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #8 on: 24 April 2017, 15:20:04 »
They had a major conflict at the start of the Age of War that was heavily watered down in a retcon, but after that it's been too quiet.

That could have been a fun read.

ColBosch

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #9 on: 24 April 2017, 15:41:07 »
That could have been a fun read.

Wish I could've done it justice in ED: Age of War, but the second edition of The Periphery threw the baby out with the bathwater in trying to "fix" the first version.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2017, 22:28:38 »
Wonder what it might take for Julian to convince the Taurans its time to take a run at taking back those worlds?
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Archangel

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #11 on: 27 May 2017, 23:14:42 »
Wonder what it might take for Julian to convince the Taurans its time to take a run at taking back those worlds?

Give them ALL Taurian worlds EVER taken by the Federated Suns and pledge to never lay claim to them again (not that the Taurians would believe that), establishment of a buffer zone where the AFFS couldn't post any military units, New Avalon, unrestricted access to NAIS/DMI technical and intelligence databases, Pocket WarShips...am I missing anything?

(You did ask what it would take for Julian to convince the Taurians not what it would take for the Taurians to convince themselves to try and take them back.   ;))
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Colt Ward

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2017, 00:21:30 »
Oh yeah, I figure it would have to be a indirect approach . . . but if the Marshall has a interest in those worlds, might be time to point out the CCAF is occupied towards the center of human space.
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Archangel

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2017, 02:33:46 »
The problem is that the TDF is in no shape to take on even a small portion of the CCAF while maintaining sufficient forces to defend its borders.  Especially with the New Syrtis front not being that from the Taurian border, the AFFS facing enemies on two, sorry three, fronts meaning they can only tie up so many CCAF units and the possibility of MAF units intervening.
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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2017, 11:17:47 »
The Taurian gov is facing another kind of challenge other than retaking world from the CC (or the FS). The TDF is in shambles (but recovering), and while the TC is still under military dictatorship, if you read between the lines of the last FM: 3145, there is a chance of reunification with the Calderon Protectorade.  Getting that would be a bigger challenge for the taurian people that would be way better than getting a couple of worlds back.
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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #15 on: 29 May 2017, 16:06:49 »
Quick question. By 3130, the Capellan Confederation had captured three worlds from the Taurians, Laconis, Brisbane and Bromhead (The latter of which was taken from the FedSuns by the Taurians during the Jihad). Is there any information as to when this happened? The three worlds are still in the Concordat as of the Victoria war, but there's no maps of the region between 3103 and 3130. If there's some reference as to when this happened, I seem to have missed this.

Capellan ambassador: "taurian worlds? you mean the liberated former Capellan worlds, which our archivists had only recently rediscovered records of?"  ;D

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #16 on: 29 May 2017, 17:47:01 »
Realistically, it'd probably take a change of leadership to make the Taurians even think about going after those worlds. The current government came to power through a coup, and has spent the better part of the last twenty years trying to fix a broken state and undo the damage it's predecessor wrought. Military adventurism is the last thing they need.
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Kojak

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #17 on: 29 May 2017, 22:30:56 »
Of course when you are talking about Daoshen Liao even simply raiding might be too much.  He just might decide to have the 3rd MAC or the Death Commandos pay them a visit.  ;)

Very true, with Daoshen in charge there's always the possibility that whistling on a Tuesday is going to earn you a regimental-scale assault drop, but a counter-invasion would change a possibility to a certainty.

If you're correct about the date range of those worlds' capture being somewhere between 3105 and 3107, it would've happened under Sun-Tzu; Daoshen didn't become Chancellor until 8 March 3113, when his father died on Liao.
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Archangel

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #18 on: 30 May 2017, 03:18:02 »
You might want to reread Wars of the Repubic Era, Daoshen had begun building up his personal base long before Sun-Tzu's death and already had a lot of influence with the military and he wouldn't have been the first future Chancellor to launch an attack against an enemy without approval from the current Chancellor (remember Romano?) assuming the Chancellor didn't approve the attack of course.  And lets not forget that Daoshen is known to keep grudges.  Remember Angela Hasek?  He couldn't simply have her executed, he had to travel to New Syrtis and attend her execution personally.
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Iracundus

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Re: Taurian worlds lost to the Capellans
« Reply #19 on: 10 June 2017, 21:10:41 »
I could certainly see this as Daoshen acting on his own initiative and then for the sake of presenting a unified front, Sun-Tzu Liao retroactively approving it.  Or alternatively maybe Sun-Tzu did approve it as a means to build up Daoshen's image as designated heir/crown prince, or perhaps to give him something minor to do to keep him from meddling in other matters. 

 

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