Author Topic: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.  (Read 12882 times)

marauder648

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Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« on: 17 March 2017, 12:33:33 »
The Dragonfly – Someone REALLY hated Infantry when designing this thing.

A somewhat ‘young’ design the Dragonfly (or Viper to give it the Clan name, I prefer the Spheroid one though) was Clan Fire Mandrils earliest attempts to build an OmniMech.  Built to be a quick strike and harassing unit the Mech suffered reliability issues with its pods that made it fall out of favour with the Mandrils Kindraa until they just gave up with the whole thing and traded the design to Clan Ghost Bear.

The Bear’s upped the factory and inadvertently made possibly the first modular factories and moved the whole facility to Strana Mechty.  Here they fixed the Dragonfly’s finicky pods and got the Mech working and decided to run with it. 
Doctrinally the Dragonfly was teamed up with the nippy Fire Moth, possibly in a ‘big brother’ kind of way but all was not well.  To get its formidable performance the Dragonfly sacrificed a great deal of pod space, letting smaller Mech’s carry more weapons, making it almost uniformly under gunned and thus a liability in a trial or duel where even a Dasher could outgun a Mech twice its weight.

It wasn’t until decades later that the Dragonfly finally found its true home as a support unit for Combined Arms units using both Elementals and Mechs whilst more modern weapons offered more versatility.  Still this Mech is a balancing act that’s hard to get right.

At 40 tons the Dragonfly isn’t a big Mech but it is very fast for its size.  With a 320 rated XL engine the Mech can hit 129kph on open ground whilst a full array of jump jets can throw it into massive 240 meter leaps (8/12/8 in game terms.)  This is formidable by any standard and when encountered by the Inner Sphere it must have been worrying to find a 40-ton Machine that could run as fast as a Locust and out jump a Spider. 

Every bit of weight saving went into the Mech’s design, an Endo-Steel skeleton holds the XL engine whilst Ferro-Fibrous armour, a useful 7 tons of it shields the Mech from hostile fire.  The armour scheme is good, each major facing and limb can take a hit from a standard PPC and still have protection left whilst the chest can (barely) absorb a gauss rifle hit. 

9/13/16/13 (7/7/7)
12/12/19/19

But this speed and jumping agility comes at a cost in pod space, whilst the designers didn’t fit any extra heatsinks (they were all stolen by the Executioners and Gargoyles) you’re left with miserable 8.5 tons of pod space which on a 40-ton machine does not equate to much at all.  Still the design’s popularity (with it being built by the Bears, Mandrils, Hellions and Horses) saw a LOT of configs, most of them made to obliterate squishies for some reason.

Variants

Prime – I’ll be polite and say the Prime is not very good.  Firepower starts off promising with a pair of Medium pulse lasers and a SRM-4 but then two and a half tons of precious pod space are used on a pair of machine guns and an AMS with its ton of ammo.  The Prime is grossly under gunned for a Mech its size and it’s only a threat to light Mech’s who can’t run away from it or an equal sized Medium like a Sentry.  Anything bigger can either ignore the Prime or gun it down and it’s a very brave Prime pilot who takes on something like a Stormcrow or bigger.  You’re reliant on your speed and jumping to keep you safe whilst trying to get round your foe for back shots.  Otherwise you’re nibbling away all day with your limited firepower. 

Alfa – Here we go!  Firepower!  The Scientist responsible for this one seems to have stolen a Nova Prime’s arm and then dotted the 5 ER Mediums on the arm all over the Mech before also slapping on a SRM-6 with Artemis FCS added for extra punch.  Due to the limited pod space there’s no extra heat sinks so a full alpha will start overheating you but not so bad as to start causing immediate issues, and you’ve still got the speed and jump jets to get you out of trouble if you do overheat.  With 5 x ER Mediums the Alfa is a rather nasty backstabber and can be a serious threat to other mediums and can shred any light that can’t run from it.  This thing is the bane of Bugs and the Classic 55 tonners as it considerably outguns the larger designs whilst outrunning and outgunning the smaller ones.

Bravo – A bit of an oddball, a direct fire support Mech and thankfully the Scientists didn’t go “Hey this thing needs an Ultra AC-2.”  Nope instead they had taken their smart pills this day and went with an ER PPC, the famed and feared headcapper of Clan guns.  Then the smart pills wore off and they fitted a bevy of close range anti-infantry guns.  A pair of small pulse lasers and a flamer form the rest of the Mech’s firepower, but it’s all about the ER Peeper. Jump and run around at long range and keep vomiting lightning.  If you have to use your point defence weapons on a Bravo you’ve either done something very wrong or your enemy has done something very right.

Charlie – To me this config is a bit of an oddball.  If it was built in the VERY early 3000’s, this is still after the introduction of battle armour, at which point the Clans would have completely abandoned standard infantry unless it was for Solhama or Dark Caste hunting units.  So why did they build a walking anti- standard infantry war crime?  With four Machine guns and two Flamers the Charlie can obliterate an infantry formation in a few heartbeats whilst seeking out any survivors with its Active Probe.  Three tons of ammo for the MG’s is totally excessive and two ER Medium lasers round out the armament.  Until Operation Revival I can’t see this config being used at all outside of Smoke Jaguar riot control operations or if a nest of Dark Caste bandits was found that needed to be exterminated with extreme prejudice. 

Delta – Seemingly a multi-role Dragonfly the Delta tries to be a jack of all trades and like all Jack of all trades it does its job if not spectacularly.  A LRM-5 provides a very limited long range harassment fire capacity, although in later periods this could be put to better use firing smoke or thunder munitions.  As the range drops a pair of ER Mediums and a Streak SRM-6 come into play giving it adequate fire at mid-range whilst an ER Small laser fills out the final bit of tonnage and gives an extra boost up close.  All in all, its not bad, and honestly I’d have been happier if this was the Prime version, it’s not spectacular but it’s not (too) bad either.  The lasers and streaks also mean you can shoot up Battle armour or immobilize tanks with a good chance of success.

Echo – New toys and as it’s not a H its ATM time.  An ATM-6 and three tons of ammo gobbles up a big chunk of the tonnage but on such a mobile platform the ATM-6 is a nasty weapon.  The Dragonfly can dart into HE missile range, slap you with them and then dart out again, making it a good harasser and flanker. Supporting the missiles is an ER medium laser and a pair of ER Smalls allowing it to blast away if you need to conserve ammo or don’t want to take a shot with the ATM.  The Echo is one of the better configs out there and the versatile ATM finds a good home on the Dragonfly, making them a good combination of weapon and weapon platform. 

Foxtrot – More new toys, the F is what happens when someone who REALLY hates infantry and likes living dangerously gets to make a Mech config.  EIGHT heavy machine guns spread between a pair of Machine gun arrays can spew out a surprisingly heavy punch between them but a mere ton of ammo means you can actually run out of ammo rather quickly.  A trio of ER medium lasers also add to the punch but the F does its best damage at point blank range.  This is a Mech to live VERY dangerously in.  Sure, you can slap someone with 24 points of damage from the Machine guns alone but you’ve got to get so close you’ll be able to count the individual rivets on your opponent to do so.  Not a place you want to be in a rather fragile 40 tonner.  This variant naturally suits using the Mechs agility and speed to its fullest. 

Golf – More new toys and this time its bleeding edge stuff, a newly developed Plasma cannon and its somewhat limited 1 ton of ammo let you do horrific things to infantry, battle armour and harass Mechs with heat issues.  More anti-infantry murder comes in the form of a quartet of AP Gauss rifles whilst a Heavy Medium laser forms the only ammo independent weapon whilst a Light Active probe lets this infantry killer hunt for its prey.  With the plasma the Golf is infinitely more flexible than the F or C as it can shut down tanks and kill infantry with ease and at longer range than their machine guns whilst the APGRs can also slaughter infantry and plink away at tanks and Mechs whilst the heavy large laser can also cut holes in hostile Mech’s.  Still against big targets that are not tanks, the Golf’s firepower is woefully limited (but still greater than the Primes) and you’ll have to fight carefully against a Mech. 

Hotel – Heavy laser time and the Dragonfly H is surprisingly sane to the point that it’s a bit..boring for a heavy laser boat.  Instead of reaching for the Heavy Large laser, the H features paired ER Mediums as well as a duo of Small pulse lasers and two Heavy Medium lasers, whilst an AMS provides a decent layer of protection.  The ER Mediums mean you don’t immediately have to run into another Mech’s personal space to do damage but the H does its best work at short ranges where it can either bring all its guns to bare or you’ve got the best chance of hitting someone.  Still its only a 40-ton Mech so don’t go into slugging matches against bigger machines, use the speed and agility inherent to the design to dance around bigger foes.  But this Mech can also totally bully smaller Mechs and it’s a fearsome killer of light’s. 

India – The I is another Heavy laser boat but more akin to the traditional H designs we expect to see.  An ATM-3 with 1 ton of ammo provides some ranged firepower, depending on the ammo choice of course.  For close in punch a trio of Heavy Medium lasers can do messy things to bigger Mech’s if it gets behind them whilst a targeting computer counters the lasers inherent inaccuracy.  The close in punch betray this variant’s Hellion origins and make the I well suited towards the Hellions unique take on Zell and their preferred pack tactics.  Finally, a Light active probe let the I hunt for hiding foes whilst an AMS shields it on the approach, probably meaning this variant started out as a H.
This variant is a 40-ton bully, use the speed and agility to make a mess of hostile light and mediums whilst also look to give any big Mech that gives you its back a heavy laser surprise. 

Uniform – A REAL oddball and one I don’t know who it was designed by.  Built for space operations and boarding actions the U is very specialised in its role it’s also a rarity in Clan designs as it mounts a melee weapon, and this was far before the Falcons went claw/talon crazy.  To support its space operations the U carries a liquid storage tank to provide fuel for its jump jets whilst an ECM and AMS provide two layers of protection.  Firepower is very limited with it being nothing more than a pair of ER Medium lasers, meaning this is the one config that the Prime outguns (which is something I guess?)  Finally, it mounts an eye opener, or can opener, in the form of a hatchet. The ONLY Clan Mech to do so.  Because of its hyper specialised nature, the U config will almost certainly not be seen on the ground and would only be found in space battles.

Zulu – DAS IST VERBOTEN!!! THIS CONFIG DOES NOT EXIST!!!  Joking aside, it does.  The Society did quite a number on the Z and made the most of the Dragonfly’s limited pod space but what they essentially made was basically an I and may indeed be based on the Hellions config, just updating the weapons as was the Societies want.  With a trio of Improved Heavy medium lasers the Z isn’t lacking for punch even if the lasers will explode if hit.  A iATM-3 (or StreakTM if you want) with a single ton of ammo provides ballistic firepower, but with the focus on short range crunch you’ll probably choose HE ammo for the Z.  A laser-AMS protects the Mech whilst a Light TAG lets it call in artillery strikes but its real secret weapon is the C3 esque Nova CEWS.  This system allowed the usually poorly trained Society Warriors to act with a surprising amount of coordination and enhance the accuracy of their guns by feeding targeting telemetry to other members of their Trey.  Because of this and its close range crunch the Z probably acted as a spotter for its Trey, using its speed to get in range and allow bigger Mech’s to engage safely from longer range.

Thoughts

The Dragonfly is to me a Mech that tries to do too much with too little. Really the Clan’s didn’t need another Medium 8/12 mover, the larger Fenris can hit this speed whilst the Koshi is smaller and can jump nearly as far.  If it was a 7/11/7 the tonnage saved could have been put to better use but oh well, we go with what we’ve got.

Variants wise it’s a mix bag.  The Prime’s quite frankly terrible and is of more use as an Elemental taxi and support unit rather than going after a hostile Mech but things like the A, B and E for example pack enough of a wallop to be respectable.  This is a design that comes into its own with the later generation configs as the early REVIVAL ones are generally adequate at best.  Still this thing is fast and agile, and can outrun most Inner Sphere Mech's its size or smaller allowing it to get into position to nibble away with its guns.

Fighting one is more a case of hitting the damn thing.  Its a 40 ton Mech, you hit it hard, its going to suffer for it, but with its mobility and speed, actually hitting one is not as easy as it sounds.  Also beware the Dragonfly not for its firepower, but what its carrying, if its got 5 tons of ablative armour...err..I mean Elementals onboard then don't let this thing come close otherwise its a case of "And you get a Swarm attack and YOU get a Swarm attack!"



A Dragonfly Prime dropping off its Elementals early in Operation REVIVAL





As always! Thoughts and comments are most welcome!
« Last Edit: 17 March 2017, 13:35:46 by marauder648 »
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #1 on: 17 March 2017, 13:34:13 »
I'll actually speak in favor of the C and other configs with anti-infantry weaponry.

Think of it this way- Dragonflies are fast, far-jumping units that are often used as heavy scouts, or as rear-area harassing units. That means they'll likely encounter second-line forces or ambushes (including infantry formations)- and nothing sucks more than finding you hopped right into a trap. Those small pulse lasers or MGs are just the thing for defusing a bad situation- far more than they would be on something like a Ryoken or Cougar.

As for the Clan's lack of standard infantry, remember that sohlama formations do happen... as do Dark Caste. And since it IS the Clans we're talking about, sometimes it's good to have the ability to remind the lower castes who's in charge if they get a bit grumbly...
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #2 on: 17 March 2017, 14:01:47 »
Ok, the Dragonfly-U is a particularly odd duck.

I just took a look at the MUL, which shows an intro date of 3088, and lists five of the Homeworld Clans as having access during the Jihad: Fire Mandrills, Cloud Cobras, Goliath Scorpions, Steel Vipers and Star Adders.  By the early Republic era, it goes Hell's Horses, Rasalhague Dominion and Republic of the Sphere, and stays there through the Dark Age.

Say what? ???

Like I said, this is a particularly odd duck.
« Last Edit: 17 March 2017, 14:07:06 by Giovanni Blasini »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #3 on: 17 March 2017, 15:23:13 »
I've played with the A a couple of times- find it to be rather boring, honestly, though I did kill a Falconer with one a few weeks ago (the guy running the Falconer having inexplicably chosen to simply stand still while I ran next to him and alpha striked before jumping away three times in a row).  Never had a chance to test out any of the other variants.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #4 on: 17 March 2017, 15:43:57 »
I've played with the A a couple of times- find it to be rather boring, honestly, though I did kill a Falconer with one a few weeks ago (the guy running the Falconer having inexplicably chosen to simply stand still while I ran next to him and alpha striked before jumping away three times in a row).  Never had a chance to test out any of the other variants.

Stood still? In a Falconer?!?!?!

Bro, do you even Battletech?  ;D

(Give the B a try- fun little sniper, sort of the prototype to the Pack Hunter. Gets a bit warm if you fire the PPC and jump around a lot, but you can always hop away and cool down for a turn or two if you need to. The anti-infantry stuff is handy if you step in the wrong squishy-nest, but that PPC should always be firing at long range- even if your numbers suck, theirs will probably be worse, and at the very least it's unpleasant to have those shots flying at you from an unhittable Dragonfly or two while you're trying to deal with the rest of its Star)
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #5 on: 17 March 2017, 15:45:29 »
I've become a big fan of the G. If you jump one of those into the back line with some elementals it requires immediate attention by your opponent. It's equipped to deal with almost any threat and serves as a great head hunter and artillery killer. In many ways it's everything the Assassin wanted to be.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #6 on: 17 March 2017, 15:53:45 »
Stood still? In a Falconer?!?!?!

Bro, do you even Battletech?  ;D

I know, right?  He's a guy who keeps showing up to play in our games while complaining about how much he hates it the whole time and frequently not paying attention.  I've told the GM that we should probably just give him an Annihilator.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #7 on: 17 March 2017, 15:57:05 »
I love the Dragonfly.  In part, I got a very since limited edition D in my first ever back of BattleTech cards, with the lovely art and all, and so I always had a strong affinity for it, but since then because I think its a genuinely good mech.

The joy of the mech isn't in its pure pod space, which you correctly point out isn't much, but in its total payload.  When you look at the jets, you realize its got 12.5 tons of stuff on it, and when a further look revels that a third of that is jets, to me it shows what this mech is for and how it wants to fight.  No, it can't hit hard, but neither can it be hit hard in return, and as a just barely medium mech it has enough armor to soak up the odd lucky hit.  I've tied mechs as tough as Turkinas in knots with these even in duals, because there is almost no other mech that can dictate the terms of engagement to a Dragonfly.  You want to be the woods, you jump to them.  More cover seven or eight hexes away, I'm there.  You can pick long or medium or short range as you will, and again even a sublimely mobile mech like a Stormcrow or Summoner can't really tell you no. 

On those grounds, I think you sell the prime badly short.  No, its not a great over all payload, but its a pulse payload, which means low heat and high accuracy, which is what you want on a mech intended to jump each and every turn.  The SRMs are to help finish later in the battle as the enemy is more worn down, or in situations where you can set up a lovely 10+ hex run into close range (if you dare).  Even the AMS makes sense, since it addresses the fact that it does take a while for that strategy to work, and a bit of protection can't go amiss in trying to out last an enemy (the fact the AMS isn't actually very good undermines this a bit, note that in 1991 it would tend to shoot down a few whole flights of missiles and then be out of ammo, which I like better on a mech like this).

I'm not a huge A fan, because of the crazy heat, but in very broken terrain you can strike and then hide to cool down and give mechs designed to alpha strike every turn fits.

A lot of players gravitate to the B, but since I use the jets so often I always heat it up too much.  Would that the SPLs were heatinks, I'd like it better, but that's just me. 

I won't address the C, or the F.

The D is the one I love.  This is the one that a decade ago once (and probably never again) beat a Turkina B with a good pilot controlled by a skilled player.  There was a lot of terrain, lots of woods and partial cover, and after about 15 turns of shaving off ten points of armor or so at a time I got into the internals and scored perhaps the underdog victory of the year for me.   Honestly, on paper its not great.  Why the mismatched missiles?  Why no more lovely pulse lasers?  But, somehow someway, it works.  I've sent it against all sorts of crazy things, and though I don't always win, I'm never disappointed. 

I don't care for the many ATM variants, on the basis that ATM has no place on a mech like this that can dictate range consistently.  On a Turkina or a Savage Coyote that can but trudge along and let its enemy do as she will, then they really shine I think, and I do quite like them, but a Dragonfly would nearly always be better off with either SRMs over HE ammo, or LRMs or an ER LL or ERLRMS or something over ER ammo.  The HL veriant, by contrast, I like for the same reason, that a 8/12/8 mech can put itself in heavy laser range when it wants, though they do clash with the jets I love too much to use.

Lastly, there does seem to be something about this mech that hates infantry.  I'd guess its because as such a fast mech, it can get into rear areas and make mischief, and we know the Clans absolutely endorse head hunter missions.  For which the G, and the two veriants I don't speak of (though I did take the C once in a BV1 battle as a gag, because it was very inexpensive) excel at.  In a post Jihad/DA type setting, I can see why you might want to keep the pods for those around, and if you're someone who doesn't have much affinity for the Dragonfly in the first place you might say its the best way to use the mech to fight tanks and infantry, but to me I'd sooner send it after mechs, big mechs, and I think that driven well I'd see it win.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #8 on: 17 March 2017, 17:18:58 »
Never cared for the Viper. Dragonfly. Whichever it is, i never remember which one was the IS designation and which the Clan one, and it doesn't help that one or both names are actually shared...

It lacks firepower for a Clan machine of this size and yet it is good enough it basically makes many lighter Clan 'Mechs kinda useless by by being better than them in mobility, armor and maybe even firepower. Makes some, like the Mist Lynx, somewhat questionable unless BV or material limits are a problem (logically this is more resource-intensive than a Mist Lynx due to greater tonnage).
Also ugly. Duckface.

I'm inclined to use something else really. If i can, i'll grab a Shadow Cat for the flexibility, or Mist Lynxes for scouting, or Jenner IICs for striking...
*Takes a look at listed options*
I think i might be biased toward Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat 'Mechs... But then i'm not really a Ghost Bear fan.


Notes on configs:
-Prime's good, jack of all trades. Not special, but cheap. Between the mobility, good armor for size and the AMS, it is pretty tough in theory.
-A is slightly overgunned, nothing a Clanner can't handle but the heavy heat generation combined with explosives on-board is risky.
-B's secondary armament is questionable. A mobile ER PPC is good though.
-C is one of those "WTF they were thinking" cases. I'm convinced this one was made by FASA for GM's that realized how good Clan tech was and wanted to give players some chance of killing one. Except even that doesn't make sense.
-D is good. It is not flashy, but it is good. I'd be inclined to load the LRM with FASCAM though, not sure long range plinking weapon has much point with this mobility.
-E is for eh.
-F is for **** infantry. Kinda hilarious really. Also kills 'Mechs quick if it gets to backstab them. I like.
-G is new toy machine for urban combat. Not bad but meh.
-H is undersinked. Not a fan really. Maybe not bad but not my thing.
-I, meh.
-U space 'Mech with no HarJel, not good.
-Z nasty, shame about only one ton of ammo, maybe best left for Inferno or MagPulse for special tool rather than using HE for straight up extra damage.


Oh, and... We actually had a Viper/Dragonfly article already. http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,22741.0.html
Not complaining though, like reading about 'Mechs.


Ghostbear_Gurdel

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #9 on: 17 March 2017, 17:36:17 »
As a Ghost Bear player, the Viper has seen a lot of use over the years. But i think my favorite game was years ago during the Martial Olympiad. I remember using the Viper B in this battle, the enemy had an Alacorn and a Maxim in his force among other things. My memory is a bit hazy, but I do remember it was late in the fight, my Mad Dog had savaged the Alacorn before going down. This left my battered Viper to fight the Alacorn and the Maxim its own, and there was a turn limit that was running out.  Using the maneuverability to avoid the return fire, I PPC'd the Alcorn, just leaving the Maxim, which was in dogged pursuit to try and finish me off, doing significant damage over several turns. On the last turn of the game, i had to jump to avoid fire, the heat had been built up, and the Maxim was closing in. The Maxim was juuuuuust barely within the arc of the PPC, but still has 12s to hit. Luckily I was on point this round, and the PPC cored out the Maxim, for a win in the last round.

The Viper is not a 'line' combatant, but stay mobile, and fight on your terms, and you can handle just about anything. My favorites are by far the B and A, but the F,G,and H, look like they could be fun to try.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #10 on: 17 March 2017, 17:56:43 »
Of the "big four" of the Invasion-era Ghost Bear Omnis, the Viper is the one I like the least. . . but I do still like it.  Mongoose hit the nails pretty firmly on their heads already, but the Viper can be played successfully into a wide array of opponents so long as you play to its strengths (namely, its impressive agility).
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #11 on: 17 March 2017, 20:18:49 »
Give the B a try- fun little sniper, sort of the prototype to the Pack Hunter.

Yeah, except that it's faster and has about three times the durability of the PH.  Seriously, that thing's like a thin sheet of toilet paper wrapped around a cardboard tube.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #12 on: 17 March 2017, 23:09:25 »
Aside from the inflated amount of ammo of the C configuration, I think it makes perfect sense.   Given CHH was the primary Bear rival and undoubtedly had plenty of uses for conventional infantry it makes sense to make a configuration to eliminate.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #13 on: 17 March 2017, 23:35:51 »
Aside from the inflated amount of ammo of the C configuration, I think it makes perfect sense.   Given CHH was the primary Bear rival and undoubtedly had plenty of uses for conventional infantry it makes sense to make a configuration to eliminate.

And it probably became a more popular configuration during and after Operation REVIVAL because the Bears were encountering a lot of conventional infantry.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #14 on: 18 March 2017, 00:06:33 »
The C configuration seems like a good candidate for trying out the rapid fire machinegun rules. Those rules eat a huge amount of ammo, which the C has plenty of, and if you get a huge heat spike from them (heat and damage both being random), you still have full jump capability to leap to cover to cool down.

It's not really something you would want to configure your mech for, but if you've already got it configured, don't have time to change over, and you expect non-infantry resistance, it's an easy switch.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #15 on: 18 March 2017, 08:37:15 »
I tend to find the odd secondary weapons are all about heat control. For example. The B's SPLs make a lot of sense as crit seekers when jumping around and burning 23 points of heat a turn.

The Prime is all about accuracy and heat management. The A is too hot and inaccurate with the D being a better substitute.

With the U remember that melee weapons offer bonuses for grappling a hull.

The Viper is a Mech that I comfortably put up against any Mech in the game. Too hard to hit and carrying the armour to survive when you stuff up.

Too many look to more gun heavy Clan Mechs but one trained in the Ghost Bears big four you have to learn subtlety.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #16 on: 18 March 2017, 08:51:43 »
"The Dragonfly is to me a Mech that tries to do too much with too little. Really the Clan’s didn’t need another Medium 8/12 mover, the larger Fenris can hit this speed whilst the Koshi is smaller and can jump nearly as far"

"The Prime’s quite frankly terrible and is of more use as an Elemental taxi and support unit rather than going after a hostile Mech"


I think, your conclusion is a bit too harsh there. If you compare this mech to the Inner Sphere mechs that have his or comparable movement... Spider, Ostscout, Locust (no jumping), Assassin (slower),Hussar (added a bit later)... it comes out on top of them in nearly all aspects. Even the maligned Prime... Lets compare the max damage output: 10, 5, 9, 14, 8 vs 24. And it has a -2 on shooting! I agree with the AMS as wasted tonnage, though.

And dont forget... at the time this mashine came into existence, it was as fast as the most manouverable IS mashine, only outrun by the Dasher, had decent armor and better firepower than IS stuff with compareable movement. And it was the most manouverable clan mech. 7/11(/7) is argueably a more effective curve in game... but if you went and liked the 8/12(/8) mashines.... THIS was the one to take.

And for the B-loadout... we players called it 3 names here "Lucky Luke" "The fastest gun in the Wild West" or "He, who is quicker than his shadow". We absolutly loved this mashine and it basically was the Prime for us. Headcapper with no ammo problems on a 8/12/8?? I want one ...

Until we playtested it. hehe It was good... but actually even with the better clan stats you missed to many shots with the PPC to really make it useful in a normal battle. But its a great dueling mashine even against bigger guys.

So... looking back... i would say, this (as other now maligned mashines) ride was a good one, not a bad one at all. And quite workable on the table.

All that changes though with the arrival of new techs and new units... and a bit of retconned fluff...

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #17 on: 18 March 2017, 09:22:15 »
The B is the only one I've actually used and is a nice little unit that I tend to use for harassment purposes. Stay on the edge of the battlefield at speed and snap off ERPPC shots to keep the big guys heads down. Damage is appreciated but the oh crap value of a headcapper that is difficult-to-impossible to hit with return fire makes for a great distraction.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #18 on: 18 March 2017, 10:32:06 »
Viper B is flexible enough for generalist duty against Inner Sphere forces, and a real terror to most any scout Mech out there.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #19 on: 18 March 2017, 10:45:22 »
The Viper U really is only useful for space battles, particularly when assaulting space stations. The Hatchet helps it latch onto its target like Jellico said, while the rest of the weaponry is useful in the cramped conditions it's likely to find once it gets inside.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #20 on: 18 March 2017, 14:34:50 »
The Viper is, to me, the fast striker that set the bar for the type. You can argue whether it is more efficient to go 7/11/x (Grendel), but in the context of the initial clan invasion (in real world terms) nothing could match it's combination of power and speed. Compare it to the 3025 era mechs that were around before the retcon. The Viper prime can do up to 26 damage on an alpha strike (with pulse bonuses to-hit on top of that). A CN9-A Centurion, for comparison, could manage a maximum of 25 damage on a forward alpha, has 2 additonal points of armor, and moves at half the speed while weighing 10 tons more.

Against its peers in the clans, there needs to be something that distinguishes the chassis. From a movement modifier standpoint, the extra speed compared to 7/11 allows for one facing change while still walking for a +3. It allows two facing changes rather than one to run for +4. It also allows for a more distinct role compared to the 6/9 cavalry and striker designs.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #21 on: 18 March 2017, 19:58:40 »
I do want to share a story from many years ago about my favorite Dragonfly moment.

This was 2004, at MileHiCon in Denver. We had a large number of players who were taking part in a Clan Grand Melee, with the rule being BV-balanced medium Mechs as the rule. And yours truly showed up with a Dragonfly B, planning to avoid the fracas and snipe from the edges- when the field cleared up a bit, a near-mint Hellbie would be able to clean up the survivors... right?

The deployment rules, however, did me no favors. I started within four hexes of four other Mechs, and decided it was time to make that trip to the perimiter ASAP. The fastest way to do so was a full jump behind a hill that didn't have anyone near it other than a Hunchback IIC driven by Denver-area demo agent 'Septicemia'. I know with the numbers he's going to have that he's not going to try pooching me with the big guns, and even if he pops the lasers I'll be fine- I can take a couple of hits from those and be okay. I'll even zap him with the PPC for his trouble. So I take my leap, over the top of the Hunchie, and prepare for trouble.

Sure enough, we exchange shots and he declares both lasers, I throw the PPC... and miss, unsurprisingly. He misses with one laser, but the other one scores a hit... and for the location, a '2'. We're using standard rules only, so that means a center-torso crit. He rolls a 12, then three engine hits. Dead.

A 45-ton Omnimech went soaring over the head of that Hunchback... and it stitched the engine clean out on the way overhead. The rest of the Mech landed in a crumpled heap, and the mint-condition fusion engine landed at the feet of the victorious Hunchback driver.  ;D
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #22 on: 18 March 2017, 22:10:55 »
I only ever have that sort of thing happen to me when I try to run a Daishi.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #23 on: 18 March 2017, 23:11:13 »
I do want to share a story from many years ago about my favorite Dragonfly moment.

This was 2004, at MileHiCon in Denver. We had a large number of players who were taking part in a Clan Grand Melee, with the rule being BV-balanced medium Mechs as the rule. And yours truly showed up with a Dragonfly B, planning to avoid the fracas and snipe from the edges- when the field cleared up a bit, a near-mint Hellbie would be able to clean up the survivors... right?

The deployment rules, however, did me no favors. I started within four hexes of four other Mechs, and decided it was time to make that trip to the perimiter ASAP. The fastest way to do so was a full jump behind a hill that didn't have anyone near it other than a Hunchback IIC driven by Denver-area demo agent 'Septicemia'. I know with the numbers he's going to have that he's not going to try pooching me with the big guns, and even if he pops the lasers I'll be fine- I can take a couple of hits from those and be okay. I'll even zap him with the PPC for his trouble. So I take my leap, over the top of the Hunchie, and prepare for trouble.

Sure enough, we exchange shots and he declares both lasers, I throw the PPC... and miss, unsurprisingly. He misses with one laser, but the other one scores a hit... and for the location, a '2'. We're using standard rules only, so that means a center-torso crit. He rolls a 12, then three engine hits. Dead.

A 45-ton Omnimech went soaring over the head of that Hunchback... and it stitched the engine clean out on the way overhead. The rest of the Mech landed in a crumpled heap, and the mint-condition fusion engine landed at the feet of the victorious Hunchback driver.  ;D

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #24 on: 19 March 2017, 00:52:56 »
JadeHellbringer rides again!

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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #25 on: 19 March 2017, 00:59:22 »
Seems about right.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #26 on: 19 March 2017, 15:16:10 »
While I'm as big a fan of the B as anyone who's used it a few times, I actually find myself gravitating more toward the H in recent years. If you put a good pilot in it, it will absolutely gut most mediums and heavies when you jump into their rear arc and let 'em have it.


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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #27 on: 20 March 2017, 08:05:01 »
While I'm as big a fan of the B as anyone who's used it a few times, I actually find myself gravitating more toward the H in recent years. If you put a good pilot in it, it will absolutely gut most mediums and heavies when you jump into their rear arc and let 'em have it.

It's an H config done right (really, so is the I config actually). Big, slow Mechs like the Warhawk (for example) may be able to haul lots of heavy lasers and heat sinks, but the reduced ranges mean it's going to need to get closer to its target to use them than ER models would allow- and a big, lumbering machine may not be able to do that against a swifter opponent. (Try using a Nova Cat to chase down a Grendel sometime- you may outgun it, but you'll never pin it down.)

But the Dragonfly? It runs as fast as the old Locust- so, half again as fast as Mechs nearly twice its weight in the Thor and Mad Cat. It jumps further than almost anything else in its era- even in the Dark Age, with the zany tech we have at that point, it's a very small number of machines that jump further, and they tend to make severe compromises for that ability. Which means that you can very rapidly close the distance on a target- even get behind it- and unleash heavy laser hell on the target without having to stop halfway there because you ran out of movement points. And once you do get behind it, you can STAY there because you'll likely be able to jump further than it can run. When you inevitably overheat your Dragonfly (because heavy laser + jumping, duh), who cares? Hop away somewhere to cool off for a turn or two, and do it all over again (assuming the target survived, or go find a new best friend to play with!). And of course, because you move as fast as you do, you'll be hard to hit in reply by a target that turns an arm backwards to hit you back- obviously pulse lasers are a threat, so pick targets wisely, but... there's not a lot of H-boats that I'm a big fan of, but this is definitely one done right.
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mbear

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #28 on: 20 March 2017, 10:24:00 »
Variants wise it’s a mix bag.  The Prime’s quite frankly terrible and is of more use as an Elemental taxi and support unit rather than going after a hostile Mech...

I think that might be the point. After all we are talking about the Ghost Bears, who have metric DropShip loads of Elementals. I could easily see the Prime as part of a supernova. It runs in, drops off the Elementals that engage an enemy unit, then supports them in battle. (Could that be a Point Supernova instead of a Supernova Trinary or Supernova Trinary?)
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #29 on: 20 March 2017, 10:31:09 »
It's an H config done right (really, so is the I config actually). Big, slow Mechs like the Warhawk (for example) may be able to haul lots of heavy lasers and heat sinks, but the reduced ranges mean it's going to need to get closer to its target to use them than ER models would allow- and a big, lumbering machine may not be able to do that against a swifter opponent. (Try using a Nova Cat to chase down a Grendel sometime- you may outgun it, but you'll never pin it down.)

But the Dragonfly? It runs as fast as the old Locust- so, half again as fast as Mechs nearly twice its weight in the Thor and Mad Cat. It jumps further than almost anything else in its era- even in the Dark Age, with the zany tech we have at that point, it's a very small number of machines that jump further, and they tend to make severe compromises for that ability. Which means that you can very rapidly close the distance on a target- even get behind it- and unleash heavy laser hell on the target without having to stop halfway there because you ran out of movement points. And once you do get behind it, you can STAY there because you'll likely be able to jump further than it can run. When you inevitably overheat your Dragonfly (because heavy laser + jumping, duh), who cares? Hop away somewhere to cool off for a turn or two, and do it all over again (assuming the target survived, or go find a new best friend to play with!). And of course, because you move as fast as you do, you'll be hard to hit in reply by a target that turns an arm backwards to hit you back- obviously pulse lasers are a threat, so pick targets wisely, but... there's not a lot of H-boats that I'm a big fan of, but this is definitely one done right.

So it's a Spider with heavy lasers? Sign me up! I'll take two of them.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #30 on: 20 March 2017, 11:13:35 »
So it's a Spider with heavy lasers? Sign me up! I'll take two of them.

Basically, yeah. Did you like the Venom with four powerful short-ranged energy weapons pointed at someone's keester? Then you'll love the Clan version, trading accuracy for raw power. When you're a 240-meter-jumping can opener, every opponent's ass looks like a can of tinned meat.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #31 on: 20 March 2017, 11:57:07 »
Now I'm trying to find a copy to double-check, but I'm pretty sure a previous revision of TRO3050 (not the Upgrade version, but the original or the revised) in the intro to the Clan section stated that the Omni variants were tagged Prime, A, B, C, etc. based on the frequency they were seen by the IS forces during the Clan Invasion. Remember, the TRO series was initially written in-universe by Comstar, so they wouldn't necessarily have all the background info on Clan stuff and what was the favorite configuration in Clan-space. My copy to double-check is at home, not where I thought I could access it easily, I'll have to try tonight or tomorrow. So things like the Gargoyle Prime is the Prime not because the Clans found it the most useful in inter-Clan fighting, but because of how often it was seen during the Clan Invasion.


Whether the above is true, or something my memory made up, we have to consider the different ways these variants could be used, not just in a straight duel, etc. While some variants will work stellar as a duelist, the Viper is a fast, medium-weight, armed recon 'Mech.

The Prime is a generalist scout, with MPLs to handle fast movers, MGs for infantry, and SRMs for fun. The AMS helps provide cover to escape if it encounters something it'd rather leave to a starmate.

The A is an obvious over-powered duelist, able to overheat to unleash a lot of damage and then jump away.

The B is an obvious long range duelist. The SPLs and Flamer allow for some crit-seeking if absolutely necessary, but more importantly, they allow it to start fires for extra cover and slaughter any enemy infantry it stumbles across.

The C is one I believe was developed specifically for the Clan Invasion. Anticipating facing swarms of infantry and tanks, this variant works great as a scout to flush hidden units and quickly destroy those infantry units and vehicles.

The D I'm unsure about. It looks like someone took the A and decided they wanted a cooler running version that could plink at long range.

The E is the typical ATM configuration for a light/medium 'Mech, an ATM 3/6 and 2-3 tons of ammo, plus some secondary weapons. Since the weapon was new I can forgive its shortcomings, but I would have preferred dropping a ton or two of ammo and maybe an ERSL to upgrade to an ATM9. Even if it meant only having a single ton of ammo, I would have been happy with that for the shear punch of 9 HE missiles.

While the MG Arrays of the F will work for infantry, on a 'Mech like this, those are designed for critting an enemy to death. While the enemy still has most of its armor, fire the MGs individually to crit-seek. Once the armor is open in a key area (engine, ammo, Gauss, etc.) switch to linked mode for the chance to land all 4 MGs per array in the same location. This gives you a better chance to crit that key component and bring down the enemy faster.

The G is a more modern version of the C, that allows it to fight at longer ranges. I wish it could have kept the full-size Active Probe to take advantage of this range, but alas. If you compare the C and G, both have a flame-related threat for infantry, BA, and 'Mechs. Both have additional anti-infantry guns (MGs, vs APGauss), both have an Active Probe, and both have some kind of Medium Laser backup for bigger targets.

The H is similar to the A, but opts for SPLs instead of SRMs for crit-seeking. It can jump and fire the HMLs without any heat gain until a target is nice and opened up, then hit the big red fire button before jumping away to cool off.

The I config is geared more towards ground-bound fighting in my mind. By running you can fire all three HMLs most of the time, dropping one to cool off or jump away. Similar to my ideal version of the E, this one only mounts a single ton of ATM ammo. In this case I would go for either standard or ER ammo, to give it the ability to hit a target at longer ranges.

The Z is a Society version of the I, swapping for improved versions of the weapons. However, in this case I might have preferred dropping the LAMS and Light Active Probe for more iATM ammo simply for the more versatile extra ammo types.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #32 on: 20 March 2017, 14:31:33 »
Basically, yeah. Did you like the Venom with four powerful short-ranged energy weapons pointed at someone's keester? Then you'll love the Clan version, trading accuracy for raw power. When you're a 240-meter-jumping can opener, every opponent's ass looks like a can of tinned meat.

Key problem is that it takes an above average pilot to pull that off with heavy lasers, while any fool can do it with pulses. The Venom is a great mech (a IIC would be a nightmare) and I quite like the Prime, but if rather see the H as an Ice Ferret or Phantom, rather than make my fight my jump jet addiction in a Dragonfly (I can quit any time I want...). Its still a fine mech and the H I wish those other two mechs had, but I don't favor it over the Prime or D or even the A.
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mbear

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #33 on: 20 March 2017, 15:06:08 »
Now I'm trying to find a copy to double-check, but I'm pretty sure a previous revision of TRO3050 (not the Upgrade version, but the original or the revised) in the intro to the Clan section stated that the Omni variants were tagged Prime, A, B, C, etc. based on the frequency they were seen by the IS forces during the Clan Invasion.

FWIW, my 1990 edition of TRO:3050 doesn't have that anywhere.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #34 on: 20 March 2017, 17:13:05 »
I'm a pretty big Viper fan. I tend to enjoy jumpy speed-demons in general, but this guy has a number of imperfect-but-fun configs that I enjoy. I do think it's at it's best as a battle taxi. A Nova of Vipers and Dashers covered in Elementals is how I've always envisioned the Ghost Bears got things done in a Recon or possibly Striker formation. Several of the variants concentrate weapons in the arms, which can be troublesome on some mechs, but makes all kinds of sense if you plan to strap on battle armored infantry and run them around the map. Even without Elementals hanging on, I still like the extreme mobility with just enough protection to survive a couple lucky hits and still hang in the fight. As it is the only one with pulse lasers, I actually like the prime as it helps offset the mods from jumping in to backstab, but I really don't mind playing most of the variants. Massed MG's and Heavy Lasers aren't my favorites, but with 8/12/8 to work with, I can usually still get something useful done.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #35 on: 20 March 2017, 20:48:39 »

Over two decades ago, I was taught a lesson about mobility in my first tournament by an opponent running some Viper Bs.  Picked me apart at range while I could barely score a hit.  Painfully educational but good times.

The Viper and Grendel always needed a stock canon pulse large laser configuration.  The newer ER pulse large laser would also work well.  TC for maximum munch, but that's asking too much.

FWIW...
« Last Edit: 20 March 2017, 20:55:17 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #36 on: 21 March 2017, 00:29:49 »
This was actually my ride, beautiful mech (the A variant mostly) easily dictates range makes IS player's with regular pilots cry as you give them nothing but 12+'s to hit while only needing 8s.

Unfortunately I gave an Atlas 10s and it missed with everything BUT the AC/20, very sad bear

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #37 on: 21 March 2017, 02:14:04 »
Over two decades ago, I was taught a lesson about mobility in my first tournament by an opponent running some Viper Bs.  Picked me apart at range while I could barely score a hit.  Painfully educational but good times.

The Viper and Grendel always needed a stock canon pulse large laser configuration.  The newer ER pulse large laser would also work well.  TC for maximum munch, but that's asking too much.

FWIW...

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #38 on: 22 March 2017, 23:07:33 »
I thought the Viper was the chassis the Clans were supposed to use when inspired by the TR1 Wraith . . .
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #39 on: 23 March 2017, 01:39:27 »
Did the Wraith fall into a wormhole or something?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #40 on: 23 March 2017, 01:42:47 »
I was joking about the Clans doing it at 8/12/8 . . . but it cannot fit that 2nd MPL on anyway.

I have not used the H, but it sounds like something to try.
Colt Ward
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Kojak

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #41 on: 03 April 2017, 23:43:25 »
I just noticed that the Dragonfly has the Improved Targeting (Long) quirk in the BattleMech Manual, which makes the B significantly more dangerous.


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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #42 on: 04 April 2017, 13:07:18 »
I thought the Viper was the chassis the Clans were supposed to use when inspired by the TR1 Wraith . . .
The Osiris (35 ton light) is based on the Dragonfly but has half the jump capability but similar firepower (for a Spheroid 'Mech anyway...).

The Wraith isn't really based on anything, just made by a company that had never before done any military products.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #43 on: 04 April 2017, 13:21:15 »
It was a joke, I know which was published first . . .

Actually one of the variants of the Osiris jumps just as far IIRC.
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #44 on: 04 April 2017, 13:25:23 »
Yes, and it's an all-laser version, to boot.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #45 on: 04 April 2017, 13:29:23 »
The Osiris is one of those 'Mechs whose variants i ignore. They lose all the feel the original has. Maybe they're more effective but that's never been a factor for me.

Odd that the Osiris isn't a 40-tonner, the Dragonfly is one of the Clan 'Mechs that can be almost copied with Spheroid tech without losing but some damage and range.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #46 on: 04 April 2017, 14:23:44 »
Well you really cannot make such definitive statements then . . . IIRC the variant also came out in the same book the 'original' did.  Considering the SRMs were a secondary weapon to the lasers I am not sure how it loses the feel.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #47 on: 04 April 2017, 14:40:58 »
Between the increased jump capability and armor and removing ammo-based weapons, it loses part of its looks (empty left arm) and becomes just plain good.
Meh.

Would've preferred removing an ERML and MPL for a LRM-5 in place of the SRMs, to keep that mixed armament and looks.

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #48 on: 04 April 2017, 16:53:05 »
Odd that the Osiris isn't a 40-tonner, the Dragonfly is one of the Clan 'Mechs that can be almost copied with Spheroid tech without losing but some damage and range.

At the same time, I think you can look at a mech like the Dragonfly and what it pulls off with its 8.5 tons of pod space, and be reminded of how far the Inner Sphere has to go.  The variants with two ER MLs give up but two points of damage to twin large laser mechs of the Inner Sphere, the A has 50% more power than a comparable IS mech, the MPLs on the Prime outrange IS LPLs.

Now, granted, that's got nothing to do with the Viper itself; the same can be said on a larger scale of a Stormcrow or Dire Wolf.  But, I do think the Viper has several variants that make some good choices (for example, none mount ACs, mostly because only the 2 would fit) that highlight how Clan tech allows you to squeeze a lot of power into a mech that can really haul ass.  Most variants outgun the original Grasshopper which I reviewed, and the A at similar levels to the very best 6K (granted, the Viper runs scorching hot while the Grasshopper is cool as an ice bucket, but the Viper is one of the few mechs that can reliably break contact to cool down when it wants).
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #49 on: 05 April 2017, 19:18:33 »
Hmm, what about PACs?
Colt Ward
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sadlerbw

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #50 on: 06 April 2017, 09:15:43 »
Hmm, what about PACs?

They were not really an option when many of the variants were created, especially the time period when most of the 'what were they thinking?' autocannon-mounting variants of the clan Omni's were made. So, at the point when most of the oddball AC variants were created, they just didn't exist.

Now, you could mount two PAC/2's, but still only enough weight for one PAC/4 or PAC/8. Of course, instead of a PAC/2, you could mount a Clan LRM15, which has almost the exact same ranges. You could mount the PAC/4, or you could take that LRM15 and add Artemis to it. With the PAC/8 and one ton of ammo, you could take a clan ERPPC and be a half ton ahead. Or, if you don't want energy, you could get three SRM6's and two tons of ammo. So, you COULD mount PAC's, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Stuff like AP Gauss are still probably the most sensible option for ballistics on the Dragonfly. I'm not sure what a PAC would let you do that a pile of missiles and some backup medium lasers wouldn't more effectively.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #51 on: 06 April 2017, 11:07:24 »
PACs make use of special ammo just like AC/LAC IIRC.
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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #52 on: 07 April 2017, 12:54:12 »
PACs make use of special ammo just like AC/LAC IIRC.

The problem is you then need to spend more of your limited tonnage on special ammo which often comes with smaller warloads than a normal ton meaning yet more tonnage goes on ammo.  Basically a PAC is wasted on a Dragonfly.
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ManicMaestro

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #53 on: 07 April 2017, 15:25:15 »
Maybe I've missed something, but it sounds like PACs are just awful. Is there any application where they're good?

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Re: Mech of the Week - Dragonfly.
« Reply #54 on: 07 April 2017, 15:40:15 »
Maybe I've missed something, but it sounds like PACs are just awful. Is there any application where they're good?

They're a way to give a small unit or large protomech extra anti-air capability through the use of flak shells.

They also have some potential as infantry field guns.

But fundamentally, they're clan tech light autocannons, with all the weaknesses that implies.
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