Hypothetical question regarding the founding

[Drewbacca]

I am sure this has been asked before, but has anyone ever thought what the result would have been if Nicholas had died during Operation Klondike and not Andery? Who would have taken over? Would the operation have continued? What would have been the long term fall out?

[Orwell84]

Here's one,  and I remember another but can't locate it.

Historical: Operation Klondike also touched on the question. According to this source Andery was potentially too soft to have prevented the Clans from collapsing into another round of civil wars, but his influence could also have nipped the Crusader-Warden divide or Revival before they arose. Ultimately I guess it depends on whether you view Andery as a smart voice of reason or as weak and overly emotional.

[Drewbacca]

Thanks.

[Drewbacca]

While I agree that Andery would not have had the strength of will to bind the clans together, I get the feeling had he survived in Nick's place the clans would have been less antagonistic.

The way I see it, Nick played them off against each other. He gave them a common goal in Klondike but even then his," which clan earns me", trick was as much to keep them competing as it was to get them motivated.

Andery was far more perosnable, from what we get in the books. While this did not mean the others respected him, they did seem to trust him. Andery was also more open to cooperation. He would have built the clans as individual parts of a machine rather than seperate machines working towards the same end. Not by force, but by convincing the other leaders they would be heard and treated as equals.

Remember the Clans are supposed to be a meritocracy within the various castes. As someone without preconcieved notions, Andery would have been, in my opinion, more likely to fall back on that meritocracy. Get the best people in place to do their jobs and treat them like they have earned the spot. I am sure the Grand Council would have been just as divided, but without the press to prove themselves against each other, with clear goals set by someone willing to take input, there MAY have been less animosity.

Plus another thing I think Andery would have been able to do is keep the senseless fighting to a minimum, the Blood Spirit/ Burrock feuding for instance. I am not sure why, but I get the feeling he would have handled this differently.

[Archangel]

While I agree that Andery would not have had the strength of will to bind the clans together, I get the feeling had he survived in Nick's place the clans would have been less antagonistic.

There was plenty of antagonism between several Clans even before Operation Klondike and it wasn't guaranteed that Andery would have even succeeded his brother or would even have wanted to.

[Drewbacca]

There was plenty of antagonism between several Clans even before Operation Klondike and it wasn't guaranteed that Andery would have even succeeded his brother or would even have wanted to.

Good point. So if not Andery, who?

[Iron Mongoose]

No one, especially since every other potential leader was already part of a Clan.  Maybe, just maybe, Mrs. Kerensky, the only other one to be kept apart from the Clans, could have had both the neutrality and the Great Leader connection, but what I know about her (damningly little) doesn't hint she has the charisma and leadership skills to get the job done, much like Andre.

Nicholas created a rather unstable system by making 20 Clans rather than one new SLDF.  Had he died in the campaign, the pentagon worlds probably would still have been liberated (though possibly at a higher cost, given the small number of situations where Nicholas had to step in) and then wars of reaving right off the bad.  There's no way the Wolverines and Wolves and Spirits and Falcons and Jags could have agreed on a next ilKhan, especially if Kerensky hasn't already anointed the Wolves.  Andrey and Jennifer might have kept things together for a few years, but even if one of them can become the titular next ilKhan, I think its too little too late.

[Sjhernan3060]

This brought up something which has been Been rolling around in my head.
Have the Clans failed?
Failed as a society?
Especially if we take into account the new background which seems to show Nick as power mad nut job who purge, people, places and things he disliked not just to build a better society but when it was convenient to do so. So have they failed? I am not sure but this weighs in favor of that IMO:
1)   Most of the original clans have been kicked out or destroyed as “ failures or tainted”
2)   In their biggest joint clan effort since Klondike the Invasion they failed to achive their objectives
3)   After the truce and great refusal they battered themselves silly
4)   After years of neglect/heavy handiness the scientist cast manage to attempt a wide ranging coup
a.   The after affects tainted the genepools and stunted technology progress even further
5)   After the word of blake wars some of the clans abandoned Zell and limited combat all together which would seem to make them no better than what they claimed to be fighting against…
So what do you all think?

[Archangel]

That is a different discussion that belongs in its own thread.

[Sjhernan3060]

Noted!

[Archangel]

Good point. So if not Andery, who?

Unclear,  Nicky hadn't tied himself to Clan Wolf yet.

[Ice Hellion]

Nicholas created a rather unstable system by making 20 Clans rather than one new SLDF.

This is perhaps the key.
Why should anyone keep the Clans like they are when their founder is dead and people have or might have different ideas on how it works?
With someone different as their leader, the Clans could have taken a look at Operation Klondike and decide to change things that didn't work well.
I know that 20 years (the time between the Second Exodus and the launch of Operation Klondike) is a generation but with the heavy loses suffered during the campaign, a new path could have been walked upon.