Quadvees

[wantec]

I would think the maximum weight limit for a hover unit would still apply, even to vees. So if you built a theoretical hover vee, I'd argue it needs to be a light or a medium. That isn't a terrible thing, but would leave you a pretty slim space to play in. It might still be worth it for the speed and ability to scoot over water, but you would definitely be light on weapons. I'd guess it would end up looking a whole lot like a Jenner: couple medium lasers and maybe an SRM rack.

Why apply a limit? The rules for superheavy hover vehicles allow tonnage up to 100 tons (pg 378 of TacOps). The suspension factor is calculated the same, it's just not as beneficial for units over 60 tons as it is for units 1-60 tons. Also their internal structure is 20% of total instead of the normal 10% of total for a combat vehicle.

Hypothetical HoverQuads would be spending 30% (10% conversion, 20% hover engines)+1ton (the cockpit extra) to QuadVee equipment while capped at 50 assuming normal hover vehicle restriction.
This a 50-ton HoverQuad (including whole cockpit) would have 31 tons for other stuff. 300-rated XLFE would take 9.5 tons and the gyro 3 tons more, internal structure another 5. This is 36.5 tons total already. Assume max efficient armor and you'd be left with 2 tons for equipment. With max efficent ferro we get 4 tons.
Obviously we can release some weight with endo-steel (2.5 tons) but 6.5 tons is not really impressive though with ClanTech it is plenty deadly still. Smaller engine starts losing the speed benefit, and XXL engine runs into space issues.

I think HoverQuad is not really a viable concept. Wheeled ones are adequate compromise.

I'm guessing this would be for a QuadVee moving 6/9 as a Quad and 8/12 as a hover? Moving at that speed, with 6.5 tons of Clantech, you could get half a Nova Prime on there with a spare half-ton. Or drop an ERML for a Supercharger and kick things up to 6/9(12) and 8/12(16). But that's starting to get a bit too much into the custom designs for this section of the forums. The point is with Clantech there's almost always options, even with only a few tons.

[Psycho]

The point is with Clantech there's almost always options, even with only a few tons.

The question then is: is that option better than something like the Cizin or Epona? Despite liking and using a variety of unit types, I've been pretty cold on the QV's. The Notos has some potential. The others have been underwhelming to me. With the weight costs of conversion equipment and wheels/tracks, the rest of the design basically has to be optimized for it to compare well to an equivalent weight 'Mech or vehicle. I haven't gone into BV/PV comparisons enough to know if those trade-offs come out reasonably well in point-balancing.

How can you tell if an opponent if the Hell's Horses has any brains? They avoid Depth 1 water at all costs. >:D

Okay, you get a Harpagos to fight with underwater.  ;)

[glitterboy2098]

could you use an interface cockpit on a quadvee? that could save you a few tons by removing the gyro requirement.

[elf25s]

I played around with the rules to create hover QuadVees. If tank treads weigh 10% of the total mech's weight, and wheels weigh 15% and also give a +1 to cruise MP in vehicle mode, then hover equipment weighs 20% of the mech's weight and give a +2 to cruise MP with flanking MP calculated normally.

Therefore, you'd get a potentially speedy mech, but the total payload is really hurt by the weight of the hover equipment. However, imagine a fast hover Omni QuadVee, with mounted Elementals...

a nightmare in urban setting or in covert ops

[monbvol]

There are a few tonnage/movement combinations where QuadVees actually spend less tonnage than an equivalent vehicle but not many to consider too.  And their ability to split fire without penalty.

So yeah compared to mechs they do suffer a lot but compared to vehicles they do start showing a few advantages where they can be better.

[wantec]

The question then is: is that option better than something like the Cizin or Epona? Despite liking and using a variety of unit types, I've been pretty cold on the QV's. The Notos has some potential. The others have been underwhelming to me. With the weight costs of conversion equipment and wheels/tracks, the rest of the design basically has to be optimized for it to compare well to an equivalent weight 'Mech or vehicle. I haven't gone into BV/PV comparisons enough to know if those trade-offs come out reasonably well in point-balancing.

Considering it was based on a hypothetical hover version, then yes there'd be options that were better than a Cizin or Epona. With only wheeled or tracked options, there still might be room, especially for vehicles that go heavy on energy weapons. In that case a QV is like a 'Mech so it has the benefits of double heat sinks and not needing to sink every weapon. I'm still running the numbers on what combo would work, but I'm sure there's something that can physically match it, not sure about BV/PV. Also, I think there are some benefits when it comes to taking damage and movement penalties, but I'd have to double check the rules.

could you use an interface cockpit on a quadvee? that could save you a few tons by removing the gyro requirement.

Nope, no cockpit or gyro options at this point, only the standard gyro and QuadVee cockpit (+1 ton, +1 crit over standard 'Mech cockpit).

[sadlerbw]

Why apply a limit? The rules for superheavy hover vehicles allow tonnage up to 100 tons (pg 378 of TacOps).

Just a hypothetical situation, but mostly it was because the weight restrictions prevented quadvees from using any of the other superheavy vehicle rules, so it seemed inconsistent and possibly unfair, to let hovers get away with it. I suppose you could, but it makes construction rules even more disjointed on top of adding another basic motive type. Plus, it is a boat load of tonnage to spend. You are welcome to consider it if you like, just seemed like a bridge too far to me.

[Talen5000]

The question then is: is that option better than something like the Cizin or Epona? Despite liking and using a variety of unit types, I've been pretty cold on the QV's. The Notos has some potential. The others have been underwhelming to me. With the weight costs of conversion equipment and wheels/tracks, the rest of the design basically has to be optimized for it to compare well to an equivalent weight 'Mech or vehicle. I haven't gone into BV/PV comparisons enough to know if those trade-offs come out reasonably well in point-balancing.

Okay, you get a Harpagos to fight with underwater.  ;)

The mistake you are making is in comparing it with a Mech.

That is a contest the Quad Vee will always lose.

QuadVees are much closer in effectiveness to vehicles as they bypass some of the arbitrary construction limitations. Vehicles will arguably still be more effective, but QuadVees have a  number of advantages that offer at least niche value.

[Gus]

Just a hypothetical situation, but mostly it was because the weight restrictions prevented quadvees from using any of the other superheavy vehicle rules, so it seemed inconsistent and possibly unfair, to let hovers get away with it. I suppose you could, but it makes construction rules even more disjointed on top of adding another basic motive type. Plus, it is a boat load of tonnage to spend. You are welcome to consider it if you like, just didn't seemed like a bridge too far to me.

This is a good point. In my experimentation with hover quadvees, I'd also considered limiting the maximum weight given that hover vehicles have an upper limit. It is worth noting that, ignoring superheavy vehicles, wheeled vehicles have a cap at 80 tons but wheeled quadvees don't face this limit. Even so, if we consider that hover equipment would be even heavier than wheels, that extra weight penalty would really hurt even an assault hover quadvee.

[Gus]

...and another interesting idea I had regarding QuadVees: some of the fluff indicates that the Hell's Horses field QuadVees liek vehicles; that is, two per Point and ten per Star. Imagine a QuadVee-based Nova: ten QuadVees and five Points of Elementals. Obviously, for this to work the QuadVees have to be Omni units.

I've thought that wheeled QuadVees in particular, with the speed bonus, might make for interesting Elemental carriers.

[Wrangler]

...and another interesting idea I had regarding QuadVees: some of the fluff indicates that the Hell's Horses field QuadVees liek vehicles; that is, two per Point and ten per Star. Imagine a QuadVee-based Nova: ten QuadVees and five Points of Elementals. Obviously, for this to work the QuadVees have to be Omni units.

I've thought that wheeled QuadVees in particular, with the speed bonus, might make for interesting Elemental carriers.

I hadn't though of the QuadVee's as Battle Armor carriers.  That is good point.  2 Stars worth of Battle Armor could be carried into battle if their doing the 2-Vehicle star configuration with the QuadVees.  Talk about force multiplier!

[Psycho]

QuadVees are much closer in effectiveness to vehicles as they bypass some of the arbitrary construction limitations. Vehicles will arguably still be more effective, but QuadVees have a  number of advantages that offer at least niche value.

I guess that's where the hang-up still exists for me; I'm looking at them trying to find more than niche value. For example, Weirdo's fascination with deploying them in water. For that to be viable, it's predicated on 1) quadvee's being allowed in the game, 2) hidden units being allowed in the game, 3) knowing that there will be depth 1 water to deploy into, 4) there being an objective or compelling reason for my opponent to enter said water, and 5) being able to outfit the QV with weapons that make it dangerous in water. Sure, if all those conditions are met, they'll be nasty. If not, I may well be better served by a different 'Mech or vehicle.

[Talen5000]

I guess that's where the hang-up still exists for me; I'm looking at them trying to find more than niche value. For example, Weirdo's fascination with deploying them in water. For that to be viable, it's predicated on 1) quadvee's being allowed in the game, 2) hidden units being allowed in the game, 3) knowing that there will be depth 1 water to deploy into, 4) there being an objective or compelling reason for my opponent to enter said water, and 5) being able to outfit the QV with weapons that make it dangerous in water. Sure, if all those conditions are met, they'll be nasty. If not, I may well be better served by a different 'Mech or vehicle.

QuadVees are also...in some ways...tougher and more mobile than vehicles. They are allowed to use Endo Steel and Double Heat Sinks. They don't pay extra for a turret. They can make use of technologies Vehicles cannot. They share some of the advantages of Mechs and can operate in environments where vehicles cannot. They don't need shielding for fusion reactors. They just need two crewmen

Overall....vehicles are probably more effective, but as a vehicle substitute, QuadVees aren't entirely without value or use. Having said that, I think that they do need something more to really justify their use.

[Cryhavok101]

Quadvees also have amusing synergy with vibrobomb minefields, since they can transform and roll right over them, or transform and set them off at a distance with your own walking (because you set the weight trigger to a level that lets you do that). I'm still not sure it's terribly effective, but I still find it amusing.

I guess that's where the hang-up still exists for me; I'm looking at them trying to find more than niche value. For example, Weirdo's fascination with deploying them in water. For that to be viable, it's predicated on 1) quadvee's being allowed in the game, 2) hidden units being allowed in the game, 3) knowing that there will be depth 1 water to deploy into, 4) there being an objective or compelling reason for my opponent to enter said water, and 5) being able to outfit the QV with weapons that make it dangerous in water. Sure, if all those conditions are met, they'll be nasty. If not, I may well be better served by a different 'Mech or vehicle.

Or you could just use depth 1 water like it's cover against attacks, dropping down below it to avoid incoming fire, and transforming back above the surface to attack again, all without actually leaving your hex.

On a map with a lot of water, I wonder if you can use it to move along the coast to reposition yourself safely, where other mechs would just be falling all over themselves?

[Gus]

I guess that's where the hang-up still exists for me; I'm looking at them trying to find more than niche value. For example, Weirdo's fascination with deploying them in water. For that to be viable, it's predicated on 1) quadvee's being allowed in the game, 2) hidden units being allowed in the game, 3) knowing that there will be depth 1 water to deploy into, 4) there being an objective or compelling reason for my opponent to enter said water, and 5) being able to outfit the QV with weapons that make it dangerous in water. Sure, if all those conditions are met, they'll be nasty. If not, I may well be better served by a different 'Mech or vehicle.

Again, I mourn the lack of hover QuadVees. Water would suddenly seem much less of an obstacle...

[Maingunnery]

Again, I mourn the lack of hover QuadVees. Water would suddenly seem much less of an obstacle...

This makes me think that we need a Flotation Hull option for Mechs.

[Gus]

This makes me think that we need a Flotation Hull option for Mechs.

Naval Vessel QuadVees! Hydrofoil QuadVees! Submarine QuadVees! The possibilities are endless...or at least, until we run out of vehicle types.  :D

[Sharpnel]

In two words, Hell NO!

[Wrangler]

From what i got so far, is the UMU maybe possible.
From Interstellar Ops, it does say it (currently) a QuadVee must have Tracks or Wheeled.  The equipment must 15 percent of the weight of said vehicle and both hover and tracks must occupy 1 critical in each leg. 
I'm curious how much heavier hover equipment will be if this were to be allowed on QuadVees.

UMU could be put on since JumpJets are allowed on Quads, they can be on the QVs as well.  UMU usually swapped in to replace the Jump Jets.  If i were to have a specialist as a UMU quadvee.  I'd hope heck that you could make it darn thing omni, so your not stuck with underwater based weaponry.  Make amphibious from a ship, cruise to the coast and then use your land base weaponry would be useful to a degree.  Like i said specialist.

It be smashing if fixed equipment like the Tracks/Wheels were modular as well.  I'm realistic saying that would definitely be likely out of the question. 

[Wrangler]

Something accrued to me that hasn't been discussed before.

Drone QuadVee.   Most Mech based drones typically are quads.  Tanks can be made into drones as well.
Forgetting that Clans would likely never use them (Quadvee Clan exclusive unit currently) wouldn't, wouldn't be possible to make a drone out of one?  I imagine you'd need two operators to run it due to way it's setup and the drone controls be just as heavy/crits needed.

[Gus]

UMUs are certainly allowable on a QuadVee, although like jump jets, they cannot be used in vehicle mode. (I asked this in the rules section of the forums; I just can't find the right post ATM!) It's also worth noting that QuadVees cannot change mode whilst submerged.

Regarding drone equipment, I'm a little unsure here. P. 134 of IO states that QuadVees can only mount the 4-ton QuadVee cockpit. Both drone (remote operated) and Robotic (fully autonomous) systems are commonly listed on record sheets as modifying the cockpit, which probably excludes QuadVees from these systems.

Another issue is weight. Given that QuadVees really suffer with payload given the weight of their conversion gear, even more weight for a robotic control system would really hurt.

[marauder648]

I like the fact that the Horses also use Quadvees to dick around with bidding when they do it.

"We bid two stars of....'tanks...'"
"Why did you add that long pause?"
"No reason..*coughs*"

Quadvee's are a nice concept and idea and one I hope keeps evolving.  Strange concepts like the Quadvee or blatant advantages Interface cockpits will make the Clans stand out again in the modern era as thanks to the spread of Clantech across the Inner Sphere, its makde it rather hegomonised. 

[Psycho]

After running the numbers on the Boreas and Notos, the QV's stood out versus vehicles when they opted for energy-heavy weapon loadouts. For example, the Boreas Prime gains a half ton over a similarly built vehicle. This does not account for heat efficiency, simply the mass of loading the same engine type, armor amount and weaponry on a vee. The Notos gains more with the movement boost; a 5/8 moving vehicle would be able to mount considerably more weaponry, but the larger engine required for a 6/9 movement curve greatly restricts its available tonnage. How much value there is in that 1 extra MP (2 with supercharger) is debatable. At least it's one notable advantage that doesn't require specific circumstances to make use of.

[marauder648]

Would an assault Quad be viable or would it suffer from 100 tonner with IJJ syndrome IE way too much tonnage devoted to the mobility systems?

[monbvol]

They do wind up with some interesting options at 80+ tons.

You can make a wheeled QuadVee at 80 tons that moves 5/8 that still has enough tonnage for weapons, armor, and heat sinks to compete with a 5/8 wheeled vehicle fairly well thanks to the differences in engines needed to pull off the mobility(47.5 tons for all the gyro, engine, conversion, cockpit, and motive systems of the QuadVee versus 43 of the wheeled combat vehicle without environmental sealing, armored motive system, or amphibious capabilities both using XL Fusion Engines).

Or if you want to go full insanity you can make the 80 ton QuadVee go 6/9.  Or make a 100 ton wheeled QuadVee that will go 5/8.

I actually made up a spreadsheet that compares the base mech mode movement of QuadVees to Wheeled and Tracked Vehicles using XL Fusion engines as the assumed standard.  Drop down for valid weights in the orange shaded cell.  Enter desired base walking MP of the QuadVee in yellow shaded cell.  Then compare.

[edit]Slight typo in the spreadsheet needed fixed.[/edit]

[SCC]

I like the fact that the Horses also use Quadvees to dick around with bidding when they do it.

"We bid two stars of....'tanks...'"
"Why did you add that long pause?"
"No reason..*coughs*"

Quadvee's are a nice concept and idea and one I hope keeps evolving.  Strange concepts like the Quadvee or blatant advantages Interface cockpits will make the Clans stand out again in the modern era as thanks to the spread of Clantech across the Inner Sphere, its makde it rather hegomonised.

Except that bidding doesn't work like that, bidding occurs between two allied groups attacking a place, so proerly it should be:

"What forces defend <objective?"
"Two stars of....'tanks...'"
"Why did you add that long pause?"
"No reason..*coughs*"

[marauder648]

Thank you for the spreadsheet monbvol its really handy :)

[monbvol]

You are welcome.

That spreadsheet has presented some interesting situations.  I may improve it's functionality a bit this up coming week since I'll be traveling a bit and my laptop isn't good for much else.

[marauder648]

From what I can establish a 100 ton 3/5 Quadvee would still be viable, sure its inefficient but thats not stopped the Clans before. 

I kinda want it to look like this but with tracks.



And keep the split cockpit style of the prototypes instead of the ****** ugly double decker cockpit of the three we see in TRO3145.

[I am Belch II]

Can quadvees do the lateral shift like quad mechs???