Author Topic: MotW: Gyrfalcon  (Read 4147 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #90 on: 17 April 2017, 13:03:43 »
Not quite. The double damage only works for the armor, not the internal structure too (unless it's composite IS, which it isn't in this case). Every point of damage from that 40-point TSM hatchet strike will cross off 2 points of armor, but only one point of IS. If you have an odd number of armor points it doesn't carry over to the IS. For example, 19 points of reflective armor and 5 points of IS will cost 10 points of physical damage. Also, 20 points of reflective armor and 5 points of IS will cost 10 points of physical damage as well.

The Gyrfalcon is still a medium mech.  It simply doesn't have enough IS to take a hatchet hit from a Berserker anywhere on its body: where ever it gets struck it will destroy the armor and IS.  With TSM active it will go through the adjacent location as well.

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sadlerbw

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #91 on: 17 April 2017, 13:50:41 »
I was futzing around in MegaMek this past weekend and decided to do a Dark Age Jade Falcon star against a star of Ghost Bears. I made sure there were a couple Gyrfalcon variants on the Falcon side. If I remember right (I was mostly using random stuff rolled from the 3145 RAT's) it was a Shrike, two Gyrfalcons and an Eyrie and something else vs. a Karhu, Arcas 2, Vulture Mk. III Prime, Beowulf IIC, and I think a viper. I tend to mess with the exact variants of Omni's so it's not all-primes, all-the-time, but don't remember exactly which ones I dropped in. I know the Karhu had a Gauss rifle though.

Now, the bot isn't exactly brilliant, but it did do a reasonable job of jumping the Gyrs into woods and trying to keep range open. Despite some juicy to-hit numbers, the Arcas and Beowulf didn't even bother shooting at the Gyrfalcon with reflective armor. I tried it once and it just wasn't worth it. I recall one round where the Arcas ended up two hexes away from the Gyr and shot at the Shrike 9 hexes away, even though the mods were worse. If you have the option, you just don't shoot at the stupid thing with lasers and PPC's.

The Vulture III Prime was more than happy to play with it though. It got beat up in the process, but the rain of missiles did about as good a job cleaning armor off the Gyr as the Gyr did taking apart the Vulture. Having four to-hit rolls helped keep things even, despite the hit mods tending to be in the Gyr's favor. Also, the Karhu sent a Gauss slug over to say hi, and it made one of the Gyr's arms very sad. The biggest problem was, on a battlefield with four other mechs, there wasn't as much opportunity to find a spot where SOMEONE wasn't reasonably close to you. Being able to shrug off the ERPPC and large pulse shots was very, very nice, but there were no shortage of LRMs and Gauss slugs that ended up doing the job just fine.

On the non-reflective Gyr, the Beowulf IIC was plenty happy to jump around with it and apply ER Pulse lasers to the affected area. It wasn't nearly as annoying as the version with reflective armor was because ERPPC's and ERLL's worked it over just fine when the range was kept open, and faster stuff like the Viper and Beowulf could keep close and trade pretty effectively with it.

It was just one fight, but I think the Gurfalcon's reputation held up well. I hated it and wanted it to die when fighting it, even with the Bot running it, so it must be doing SOMETHING right!
« Last Edit: 17 April 2017, 14:18:06 by sadlerbw »

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #92 on: 17 April 2017, 13:57:42 »
When you say 'Erinyes', do you mean 'Eyrie', like the light Mech? Or 'Erinyes' as in the worst of the lot of Protomechs? (Or 'Erinyes', as in you threw a giant ****** chunk of rock on top of your opponent? :D )
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sadlerbw

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #93 on: 17 April 2017, 14:17:46 »
Eyrie...as in I couldn't remember for sure and guessed!

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #94 on: 17 April 2017, 16:07:07 »
The Gyrfalcon is still a medium mech.  It simply doesn't have enough IS to take a hatchet hit from a Berserker anywhere on its body: where ever it gets struck it will destroy the armor and IS.  With TSM active it will go through the adjacent location as well.
True, although my point was more that it's not as simple as double the damage. In the case of the Gyrfalcon, it takes 29 points of physical damage to the CT to core it. A hit from the TSM Berserker to say the RT or LT will take out the side torso, strip the armor on the CT, and 8 points of IS on the CT (assuming full armor). Not great, but not a one-hit kill unless you hit the CT, Head, or a rear torso.
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #95 on: 17 April 2017, 18:27:24 »
People can have moments of uncharacteristic stupidity for a variety of reasons. Maybe he was overconfident from riding a combat high. Maybe he was enraged to the point of stupidity by something the Hatchetman pilot said about his lineage. But I've never read that novel, so I can't say.

There's "moment of uncharacteristic stupidity".

And then there's checking to see if your weapon has jammed by pointing it at your face and pulling the trigger.  I'll let you guess which one this was closer to.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #96 on: 17 April 2017, 18:44:17 »
Sounds like typical Falcon behavior, then.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #97 on: 18 April 2017, 00:05:18 »
(Or 'Erinyes', as in you threw a giant ****** chunk of rock on top of your opponent? :D )
That would seem be an equitable way to fight fire with fire.  Nuke it from orbit.  It is the only way to be sure.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #98 on: 18 April 2017, 01:08:39 »
Hell, one unnoticed Urbanmech or Hollander will be the start of a very bad day for a Gyrfalcon.

You know, I just remembered that there's an Arrow IV variant of the Urbanmech...

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #99 on: 18 April 2017, 10:51:23 »
True, Gyrfalcons don't stand up to Davy Crocketts all that well.
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #100 on: 18 April 2017, 14:03:34 »
True, Gyrfalcons don't stand up to Davy Crocketts all that well.
No, that double damage from AE weapons can really hurt at times... ^-^

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #101 on: 18 April 2017, 17:52:38 »

I like a well-designed sniper, and the latest TROs are delivering quite a few good ones (the Wulfen, the aforementioned Vulpes, etc.).  In theory, this kind of out-ranging, highly mobile, and decently armored design should dominate, or at least be superior, on a realistic battlefield.

But BattleTech games usually do not deliver realistic battlefields.  Play areas (Circles of Equals?) are often only a little larger than the maximum range on the Gyrfalcon's weapons, limiting its ability to maneuver and keep the range open. And even if the play area is large (or rolling), modest terrain will block the LOS necessary to take advantage of the Gyrfalcon's extreme ranges.  A minimally observant and knowledgeable opponent seeing these kinds of direct-fire snipers in his opponent's force will neuter them before play starts by laying down some level 2+ hills and/or 3+ hex woods with his half of the mapsheets or terrain.

If BattleTech play was more realistic, I would use designs like the Gyrfalcon all the time.  But it's not, so for me, the Gyrfalcon and its kin, as much as I like the thinking that went into the design and fluff, are limited to niche play on large play areas with little terrain.

I'd also note that these exquisite, high-performance sniper designs can be pretty effectively countered in a BV-balanced game with fairly low-tech units.  For example, you can buy four Saladin hovertanks for almost the same BV as one Gyrfalcon.  On a terrain-less, rolling play area, the Saladins will gain five hexes on the Gyrfalcon each turn.  Unless the Gyrfalcon gets lucky hits and crits that kill a Saladin each turn (and it might with its LB 2-X cluster but still rarely), the Gyrfalcon will be facing multiple AC/20 shots in five or so turns.  And if there are some level 1 hills or woods that the Saladins can skirt to protect themselves while they advance -- or if the Saladins have access to armor-piercing or precision ammo -- then it becomes very hard for the Gyrfalcon to come out ahead.

Same goes for Pegasi, Drillsons, Eponas, and similar units... a high-BV, high-performance, melee mech (or artillery) is not necessary to counter a high-BV, high-performance sniper mech. 

(Of course, this holds true for mechs other than the Gyrfalcon.  Even a mobile, 3025-era, LRM boat like the Dervish could just be charged by the five or six Savannah Masters that could be purchased with its BV.)

But these kinds of vulnerabilities are something to consider before investing too heavily in these expensive, unfortunately niche mechs, IMO.

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« Last Edit: 18 April 2017, 21:39:43 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #102 on: 18 April 2017, 20:18:53 »
If I wanted to kill one of these I think I'd take Centaur BA

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #103 on: 18 April 2017, 20:27:17 »
If I wanted to kill one of these I think I'd take Centaur BA
That is actually pretty good idea. The Centaur has relatively short range but also low cost. All you need to do is to get a Centaur to an area and it will keep adjacent map sheets clear of Gyrfalcons.
I'm not sure it will actually be able to hit or kill a Gyrfalcon... but area-denial can be just as effective as actually hitting the enemy.

EDIT The Centaur can do 24 or 8 damage to the Gyrfalcon if it hits the Reflec armor, depending on whether the Centaur hits the Gyrfalcon's hex or adjacent hex. AE damage gets applied in 5-pts clusters, no? It will take time to kill a Gyrfalcon with this but it is sufficient damage it should work as an area denial tool.
« Last Edit: 18 April 2017, 20:30:19 by Empyrus »

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #104 on: 19 April 2017, 12:07:44 »
That was Flight of the Falcon, I believe. (Pretty sure)

I did re-read that passage (and I'm planning to re-read the book; I'd forgotten it was Victor Milan who wrote it) and it does explicitly describe his decision to close as a mistake, noting that staying back (not falling back, just not charging head long) would have brought sure victory.  We don't see from his view point in that moment, and Tara Campbell attributes it to a need to lead from the front as the remainder of his forces charge.

However, in the opening scene of the book, we she Alex chastise an elemental he is fighting for failing to see the value of tactical retreat, of keeping distance open.  Reckless charges aren't in his nature.  So why race in?  I will offer two rational reasons, and an extra half a human motivation.

In his previous battle, he had faced a massive artillery barrage, which the narrative notes that he skillfully avoided by rapidly closing with his enemy. His enemy had air superiority, and had just been reinforced by a force known to have many fighters of their own, so it was reasonable for him to fear either a renewed artillery attack or bombs, since his enemy had shown no honor and employed multiple traps.  Given that, ordering his lines into close combat was a prudent tactical move, despite the fact that his forces almost surely out ranged their opponents, and given his reflective armor, being the only one not to close ranks would have made him an extremely tempting target, making that a poor tactical decision. 

Alternatively, as I mentioned above, doing the long ranged dance is a safe way to win, but a slow way, and less than sure against an opponent who can break contact and fall back behind her own lines.  Sometimes, you can play the long game.  But, sometimes you need to win quickly.  Sometimes, you have a chance to bring down the skillful and charismatic leader of a force on the edge of breaking before it can be fully reinforced, and you have to take it, even if at great risk.  Had be brought Tara Campbell in her Hatchetman down, it might have broken the back of enemy resistance.  This is not an unlikely outcome, if he can close and still manage to use his jets to stay more than 30 meters away, or if he can simply blast that Hatchet off, since the Hatchetman isn't a tough mech.

Lastly, it is noteworthy that Tara Campbell in her Hatchetman had just recently put Alex Hazen's beloved sibkin in the hospital.  While I don't think it would be enough on its own to make him lose control, given the sound tactical reasons to close, it may have pushed him to close maybe just a bit faster and closer than he needed to.

And lastly, Tara's Hatchetman seems to be some sort of super Hatchetman, since it had stood up to Malvina's Shrike the day before.  I don't know if its got some sort of super armor, or if its actually a Berserker masquerading as a Hatchetman, or if its Hatchet is actually an Elvish hatchet, made in Gondolin for the wars with the Orcs, but I don't think it was just a regular old Hatchetman.
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #105 on: 19 April 2017, 12:22:48 »
I have vague recollection that Tara Campbell piloted an Ultra AC equipped Hatchetman, which would mean the 5D variant.
Autocannon it had for sure.
Also pretty sure it wasn't actually modified or anyhow special.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #106 on: 19 April 2017, 13:04:10 »
I have vague recollection that Tara Campbell piloted an Ultra AC equipped Hatchetman, which would mean the 5D variant.
Autocannon it had for sure.
Also pretty sure it wasn't actually modified or anyhow special.
Plenty of mods that can be made without swapping out the Ultra AC. Off the top of my head, XXL Engine and modular armour would have given it more survivability than expected.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #107 on: 19 April 2017, 13:09:38 »
My point was, there was nothing to indicate it was modified, or at least extensively.
Also, considering when the books were written and what kind of tech the units used, i would rule out anything terribly advanced (like XXL engines or modular armor that didn't even exist back then, i think). The Gyrfalcon was almost certainly the more advanced of the duo.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #108 on: 19 April 2017, 22:07:25 »
No, that double damage from AE weapons can really hurt at times... ^-^

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #109 on: 19 April 2017, 22:15:27 »
My point was, there was nothing to indicate it was modified, or at least extensively.
Also, considering when the books were written and what kind of tech the units used, i would rule out anything terribly advanced (like XXL engines or modular armor that didn't even exist back then, i think). The Gyrfalcon was almost certainly the more advanced of the duo.

I'm not sure about modular armor, but XXL engines were introduced in Max Tech so they were definitely around, just not something that was really utilized.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #110 on: 19 April 2017, 23:43:51 »
My point was, there was nothing to indicate it was modified, or at least extensively.
Also, considering when the books were written and what kind of tech the units used, i would rule out anything terribly advanced (like XXL engines or modular armor that didn't even exist back then, i think). The Gyrfalcon was almost certainly the more advanced of the duo.
Well, because the tech specs weren't published at the time, it can be sort of retconned with gear that needn't have been mentioned in the text.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #111 on: 20 April 2017, 00:05:55 »
And lastly, Tara's Hatchetman seems to be some sort of super Hatchetman, since it had stood up to Malvina's Shrike the day before.  I don't know if its got some sort of super armor, or if its actually a Berserker masquerading as a Hatchetman, or if its Hatchet is actually an Elvish hatchet, made in Gondolin for the wars with the Orcs, but I don't think it was just a regular old Hatchetman.

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #112 on: 21 April 2017, 12:24:27 »
******, dude, you made me shoot scotch out of my nose, that burns like you wouldn't believe...
That's probably how that crocket feels on the gyrfalcon's face.

.... Is throwing junk a physical attack, btw?
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #113 on: 21 April 2017, 13:04:27 »
.... Is throwing junk a physical attack, btw?

I think it is in Halo multiplayer matches. They call it something else though.
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marauder648

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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #114 on: 21 April 2017, 13:31:16 »
Hellbie will you be doing the Shrike and Eyrie?
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #115 on: 21 April 2017, 13:41:59 »
Hellbie will you be doing the Shrike and Eyrie?

I honestly hadn't planned on it, but if people want me to I suppose I can. Eyrie shouldn't take long anyway with only the one version, Shrike shouldn't be too hard either. Just not this week, I'm buried at the office today (where ironically a MWDA Shrike is perched on top of my phone)
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #116 on: 21 April 2017, 16:11:24 »
I think you'd do them great justice :)  And there's no need to rush :)
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #117 on: 21 April 2017, 21:49:20 »
Even worse, if it's shut down, it's now a target for battle armor swarming. Now, the Gyrfalcon isn't an Omnimech, so it isn't able to deliver the kids itself, but a spare RL10 or something similar would be a great delivery system- rush up, get in a few swipes from the APC's guns and unload the point, swarm the target while it's shut down the following turn, and even if it does start up again it's got a major problem. (Remember that the Falcons ended up with the Ice Hellion Afreet suit... if you're not familiar, its weapons suck but it can jump four hexes at a time. O HAI!)

You definitely wouldn't want to use this in a duel (well, maybe?), but as part of a team it could get pretty ugly. I'd be curious to see if having Inner Sphere-developed weapons give it any dishonor in the eyes of warriors or not, but the benefits probably outweigh the taint.

The Gyrfalcon with TSEMP is actually my absolute favorite medium duelist--two TSEMPs will do bad things to an enemy, often shutting them down; if they do not shut down, they'll have a hard time hitting back--if they do shut down, they automatically fail the PSR when you hit them with two ERLLs the next turn, meaning they have a harder time avoiding your next TSEMP shot, which continues the death spiral...

Long story short, it's maddeningly beautiful.  >:D
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Re: MotW: Gyrfalcon
« Reply #118 on: 22 April 2017, 00:43:45 »
The Gyrfalcon 2 is a mech that I like and fits my style for cavalry play- even if I am not a JJ fan . . .

To me it takes the Huntsman H or Stooping Hawk C and uses new technology to extend their capabilities, and they are favorite mixed battle designs for me.  Not sure why a pair of cERLL are considered just for sniping since a pair of solid 10 point hits works in most eras.  I do grant it wants to keep out of typical short range, 5 hexes or less since lighter short range weapons are more likely to out do the damage of the ERLLs.

Instead of other autocannons, I wonder what a pair (to keep the visual) of Plasma Cannons would do for the design.  Your melting infantry, BA, armor and if you hit ASF you are giving them problems.  You can also toss on a few more DHS on the 2 if you go that route.
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