Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Vindicator  (Read 17951 times)

Iron Mongoose

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Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« on: 28 April 2017, 15:21:28 »
Mech of the Week: Vindicator

Introduced in the second round of mech designs, in the wake of the unseen, the Vindicator was one of the mechs aimed at giving the various factions specific mechs, and it succeeded wildly.  No mech is more associated with the Cappellan Confederation than the Vindicator, the plucky little medium from the old days.  In the spirit of relative balance that pervaded before the Fourth Succession War, it was well balanced against mediums of the other states, with an eye towards the Enforcer, and remains one of the premier medium mechs of any era, despite being one of the slow mediums that came out in its era, largely rendered obsolete with the coming of the Clans and the XL engine.

That slow medium nature in many ways defines the Vindicator to this day.  Unlike the famed 55 ton trio at 5/8/x, or the comparable weight Phoenix Hawk at 6/9/6, the 45 ton Vindicator plods along at 4/6/4.  While the jump jets make it flexible over rough terrain and a trick to out maneuver in close, it can be easily distanced by mechs more fleet of foot, and has trouble dictating range to mechs other than its slow medium contemporaries or heavies.  Thankfully, that is less of a problem than it may seem; a full nine tons of armor was brick like in the day, and compared well to many heavies, giving up only a ton to the Dragon and Catapult, and nothing to the Enforcer. 

The Vindicator 1R also carried a solid long ranged arsenal, and despite fluff notes about being sort of lack luster, the guns taken with the armor make the Vindicator a mech to be feared.  A PPC, the most devastating weapon readily available, gave it a strong bite, matching or beating most other mechs.  A LRM 5 allowed it to match any weapon beyond an AC2 for range, meaning it could at least take a shot, how ever week, at any enemy.  Best of all, sixteen double heatsinks allowed both weapons to work overtime, even while jumping, a great perk in an era of heat hog mechs.  This was helped by the naturally deep magazines on the LRM 5, alleviating the mech of most ammo woes, save for the ever present explosions.  In close, when the PPC and LRM ran into trouble, a medium laser and a small laser came on line; while not great, they gave the mech a means to shoot accurately at point blank range.

The Vindicator was, and still is, the classic trooper.  Cheap, common, and potent.  The though armor means it can stand in the line, and the low speed means it will not be making any crazy flanking maneuvers.  A steady advance, pounding with the PPCs, is the way to work; few mediums can stand against the combination of heavy armor and constant PPC fire.  Singly, it can anchor lines of lighter faster mechs, and its range allows it to support heavier Cataphracts and other short ranged mechs.

An odd variant also came from the early period, as near as I can tell.  The 1AA was the speed variant, and managed a 5/8/5 movement curve at a hefty price; the mech mounts only 4.5 tons of armor.  Much like the Shadow Hawk D, this is just a death trap, and should be used only when things are really desperate.

Sadly, most of the 1AAs are likely gone; things got really, really desperate.  The Fourth Succession War came, and the Confederation went. The superior quality of the Vindicator could not make up for the inferior numbers.

It was then that the Confederation rebuilt.  With the Vindicator plant safe on Cappella, it was one of the chief mechs of the new CCAF, and what a mech it was.

Remaining were the heavy armor and low speed, the former augmented by CASE for the LRMs.  Also there was the PPC, upgraded to an ER model.  As before, the Vindicator could stand at range with any mech at range, with no need to close to fight.  Further, in close it could continue to use the PPC thanks to a lack of minimum range and one other addition: double heatsinks.  Unfortunately, the minimalist upgrade that stood other great old mechs in such good stead failed the Vindicator.  Perfectly sinked in the past, the removal of only a single heat sink rendered the mech vastly over sinked, able to fire all its weapons and jump after having taken an inferno hit.  The switch to an MPL from the ML and the loss of the SL are of mixed virtue; the SL was mainly useful to cover the short ranged blind spot in any event, which is gone now. 

In the end, however inefficient, the Vindicator 3L was a fine machine in combat, with no particular weakness, and formed the core of the CCAF, and made a fine base to work with until the introduction of more specialized machines.  Those came in the form of the Firestarter O, which filled the same weight slot and could take on Vindicator like armaments with much more speed.  This led the Vindicator team to make variants that could play in the new age.

The first, coming in the Stealth Armor revolution, was the 4L.  Taking a cue from the 1AA, it upped the engine to 5/8/5, but with the help of an XL it was able to actually improve the armor levels, mounting only a point less than the maximum, and of stealth armor.  With good speed, stealth tech, and more armor, 4L pilots may not care about their vulnerable XL engine. 

The new mech also adds weapons, incorporating an ER medium laser into the mix.  The heat balance is also cut much closer, with 13 doubles allowing stealthed use of the PPC, with the LRMs mixed in from time to time, or a full use of the lasers with combat gets close and the stealth can be dropped.  A solid mech, the Vindicator quickly grew into its roll as a stealth mech, continuing to be the standard bearer for the Confederation in sporting its best tech.

The other option is the 5L, which mounts a sward and TSM to be a deadly infighter.  Two ER medium lasers, two pulse mediums, a pulse small and a standard small complement the PPC to help balance the TSM heat, though the absence of heatsinks beyond the base 10 makes full use of the weapons problematic.  As an infighter, the 5L returns to the durable standard engine, using TSM for the boost in speed to 4(5)/6(8 )/4.

While a fine mech, the TSM is more useful for speed than it is for swinging the sward.  It is just a bit underpowered, and often a kick will do better, but that is a debate for another time.  As is, the mech has a solid complement of lasers that allow the user to chouse how they will fight.  Much more specialized than the generalist Vindicators of the past, the 5L must be used with care.

Finaly, there is a new version that came out in the newest TRO.  The 6L, the Super Vindicator, mounts all the newest tech to great effect.  Mounting stealth armor along with the TSM and sward, it is a bit of a new toy mech, but can be killer in ambushes, as a guard for other stealth mechs, in closing operations, and the sward just sort of looks cool.  It is the first non-PPC Vindicator, using instead a Plasma Rifle and a pair of ER mediums.  For added bonus, they are guided by a Targeting Computer.  While the Confederation can not produce the tech themselves, their success in battle has yielded quite a stockpile of the toys, it seems, and the Vindicator joins such units as the Regulator in mounting the captured computers.

As mentioned, the Super Vindicator is over generalized, and tries to do too much, resulting in it excelling at few dedicated roles.  It can not snipe as a stealth mech, as the 4L did.  It can mix things up in close as well or better than the old 5L, which is probably the best use of it.  The stealth armor is used to ensure that it takes few hits in closing, evening the odds against longer ranged mechs, preventing them from using their full long range.  It can also guard other valuable mechs, preferably stealth ones, and for hunting isolated units it can work well, able to counter many tactics with its versatility.  Plus, as it will have experienced pilots in all cases, it can make deadly aimed shots and directed sward attacks.

The Vindicator has gone from a generalist mech to a more specialized one, but it will still be the face of the Confederation for years to come, and the older models continue to hold up well.  The 1R can still compete in the modern era, a feat few can claim.

Next week, look for a special guest appearance with the Viking, and I’ll be back the week after with the Battle Cobra.  I hope you enjoy!


2017 Update:

In the last ten years, things have changed and things have stayed the same.  I’ve left my original thoughts from 2007 untouched, a snapshot in time as to my thoughts and feelings (editing mistakes and all) and I’m going to try and use this update to bring both the Vindicator and my thoughts on it into the present. 

There are a few new variants, though I don’t have all the relevant literature so if I miss some background I apologize.

There are some succession wars era variants that I didn’t cover earlier first.  One is the prototype with a machine gun, which isn’t memorable.  Another is the St Ives model, which is interesting.  It switches the PPC to a large laser and doubles the LRMs to a 10 pack.  It reminds me of the Griffin L, but I always liked that mech so its not such a bad comparison.  This is based on a personal Vindicator of a St Ives warrior, who must have had a bit of clout.

There are also Jihad era variants.

One is the 3Ld, the drone edition, from 3071.  It features two ER MLs in place of the LRMs, seemingly fewer jump jets, and of course a drone cockpit.  This isn’t really the right place to get too into drone tactics, but it is intresting that the Vindicator was chosen, and as a modification of the 3L and not some more advanced model, hinting that my 2007 predictions that the Vindicator would remain a common sight in the Confederation proved at least a bit true.  As a modern fighter, I do miss the LRMs to a degree since their range matches the LRMs a bit better, but the 3L always had an over abundance of heat dissipation so it can handle the ER lasers with no real trouble.

We also have the 3Lr from 3077, which uses a snub-nose PPC, MML5 and an ER ML.  I’m not sure what the “r” stands for; its ironic perhaps that LR usually means long ranged, yet the snub nose turns this model into a very short ranged fighter.  The SNPPC isn’t a weapon I really care for, and I don’t know if a modified Vindicator is the right platform.  At least the MML is a good pairing, since it can plink itself into range and then switch to SRMs in close, and the old tech engine and CASE do make the mech tough enough to be a slow infighter in the Jihad era.  I don’t really like it, but half of that is just my dislike of the main weapon and half is that it really turns the 3L it is based on upside down in a problematic way.

The most modern variant is seemingly a one off for some bounty hunter in 3078, briming with Clan tech, starting with the armor and chassis, on to a Clan ER PPC.  It also features a mech taser (seemingly a good choice for a bounty hunter) with a supercharger and an actuator enhancement system to get up close and personal.  Its more spcalized than I like, but it does well what it sets out to do.

What does that leave as missing?  Anything from the post Jihad era.   This is something I probably should have seen coming ten years ago, when I concluded that the mech would continue to be “the face of the Confederation for years to come.”  The greatest obstacle to this was the Confederation itself, and Xin Shang.  The Vindicator is a cheap and cheerful mech, a tough trooper that can stand up to larger mechs, with good range, that can hold a line; it’s a symbol of the Confederation in the succession wars.  But, since the 3060s, the Confederation had been in many ways the polar opposition of its Succession Wars self in one key way: they’re winning so much, they’re getting tired of winning. 

That winning has come on the back of more and more mechs with Chinese names and styling, starting from the 3060s and going on into the Dark Ages.  Some of these Clickytech mechs were out in 2007, and perhaps I should have taken that glimpse of the future and seen the writing on the wall.  The future would not be a future of Cataphracts and Vindicators and Ravens.  No, the future belongs to the Yao Lien, the Yinghouchoung, the Tian-zong, the Shen Yi, the Gun (I can’t do the mark on the u, but its there), the Lu Wei Bing, and so on.  Many of these are good, quality mechs.  Fully modern mechs that are designed from the out to take advantage of new tech.  Some of them are problematic, sure, and a modern Vindy might be competitive, perhaps, but that seems not to be the case.  The Vindicator was once the pride mech of the Confederation.  Candace Liao piloted a Vindicator (how Justin wounded her in a Blackjack is beyond me; he must have really been just that good).  Her great grand niece pilots a Centurion (granted, her husband’s mech, but he was a FedRat).  The Vindicator was once THE Cappellan medium mech; now it seems to have almost totally fallen off the master unit list (probably an error, since its still on the RATs from 3145, though not prominently).  While even in the Xin Shang era there were senior warrior who remembered Capellan Vindicators holding the line bravely against Andurian, the new generation was raised on tales from the Jihad, from the wars against the Republic. 

So how does one use the Vindy in the modern era?  The quick answer is that one doesn’t.  Sure, if you’re using the RATs you could pull up a stealth 6L (on a roll of 11) or 4L (on a 7), good mechs, but designed before nearly anyone in the CCAF was born.  The key problem is simply a lack of really good modern variants.  The 6 and 4 are competent, but I really don’t care for the 3Lr.  There just isn’t anything from the 3100s, an no real evidence that anyone is still trying to put old 1R and 3Ls out in the field any longer.  They’re both good mechs, and would have some value; they’re tough, they have acceptable or good range, they can get around the field just well enough to keep up. 

The Vindicator then is something of a legacy mech, to be used in era specific games, to be fondly remembered, but it is not something that is a big part of the face of the modern Confederation.  It makes me sad.  But things aren’t what they were ten years ago, and just as the Confederation seems to have adapted very successfully to being the big dog, so must its players.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2017, 17:27:07 »
"r" models are Jihad-era refits to older 'Mechs.

3Ld is from Necromo Nightmare, a free Halloween adventure that is unusually canon. The variant is missing from MUL though, making it technically non-canon variant... Guess i need to go pester MUL team :P
It is actually a robotic 'Mech if i recall correctly, not a drone. And technically illegal original, since robots had to be quadrupedal until IO adjusted the robotic cockpit rules.


Post Clan-Invasion and the Jihad, i think the Vindicator has been getting increasingly replaced by the Huron Warrior, Snake, Calliope and Agrotera, and maybe even the Firestarter and Blackjack Omnis and Men Shen. (Of those, the Snake is a direct replacement/upgrade to Vindy though supposedly specializing in Battle Armor hunting and the Calliope is a replacement for it.) None are tough troopers per se, but then the time of a medium trooper has kind of receded with increased combat range and power.

The Vindicator was a jack of all trades and a trooper due to necessity, but it seems this time has gone.


Personally i love the concept of the Vindicator, especially how factional the 'Mech is. But in practice, i don't quite like it. It lacks the oomph the Enforcer has (8+10pts hits vs 10+small ones) and its upgrades came a bit too late. The 4L with stealth armor and increased speed is not bad but the speed feels slow during a time when 5/8 speed bracket is commonly available to HEAVY 'Mechs!
That said, it is a good filler for lances. And you can always leave unpleasant tasks (like mine clearance by walking) to it rather than some more important 'Mech.

EDIT What the Vindy kind of needed was a Avenging Angel II for 3050s. 6/9 speed with XLFE and heavier armor. Basically very similar to the Phoenix Hawk but so very logical upgrade.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2017, 17:28:39 by Empyrus »

Frogfoot

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #2 on: 28 April 2017, 18:19:34 »

Tech wise, in 3067 the average front line regiment in the CCAF was only about 40% upgraded. For the reserve regiments that percentage was even lower. I'd bet that a lot of vintage VND-1R models were still soldiering on, and would see action against Hasek and the Word of Blake. They might even have outnumbered the flashy newer variants.

After the Jihad it's another story. CCAF upgraded levels were a LOT higher, probably reflecting that they took heavy losses against both the Capellan March forces and the WoB before spending about 5 years straight rebuilding. Going by the numbers, most of those old 1Rs must have been either replaced or refitted. By the Dark Age there are probably just a handful knocking around in a militia or reserve regiment.

iamfanboy

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #3 on: 28 April 2017, 18:31:32 »
I think the fluff was that Candace and Justin were in dense terrain, where the range advantage of the Vindy couldn't come into play - but the 4xML of the Blackjack COULD.

Or maybe I'm getting it mixed up with another story about Tormana.

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #4 on: 28 April 2017, 18:52:45 »
I think the fluff was that Candace and Justin were in dense terrain, where the range advantage of the Vindy couldn't come into play - but the 4xML of the Blackjack COULD.

Or maybe I'm getting it mixed up with another story about Tormana.

Woods, if memory serves, and Candace was running, which is to say trying to get out of the woods to a place where she could open up the range.  Still, why she'd enter the woods in a mech who's main weapons have minimum ranges and long maximum ranges is beyond me, since outside of that she's depicted as being a competent warrior.  Of course, we don't know the whole story; maybe she was damaged previously, or one of Justin's ACs scored a golden BB of some type. 

But, I think we're agreed that an intelligent Vindi pilot will defeat a Blackjack 8 or 9 times out of ten, with the losses when terrain is tight or the maps are tiny or when crazy AC2 luck strikes, right? 
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #5 on: 28 April 2017, 20:56:21 »
It occurs to me that a lot of what's been said here about the Vindy also applies to its smaller cousin, the Panther.  Both were kind of stopgap trooper 'Mechs filling in for larger BattleMechs in their respective factions, neither really caught on much outside their primary factions, and both seem to have largely gotten left behind by a shift in their primary factions' preferences and the advance of technology in the Inner Sphere.  I suspect the big issue is that the slower light/medium trooper suffers heavily in the post-Jihad era, and there are too many limitations on what you can do with either 'Mech without completely altering its character, with 'Mechs like the Yao Lien or Wight serving as their replacements.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #6 on: 28 April 2017, 21:52:47 »
Yeah, who in the Inner Sphere is still producing slow mediums?  Honestly, the Eisenfaust is the only new 4/6 medium mech that comes to mind.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #7 on: 28 April 2017, 22:10:20 »
And the Eisenfaust prototype dates back to 2471.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #8 on: 28 April 2017, 22:14:50 »
Yeah, who in the Inner Sphere is still producing slow mediums?  Honestly, the Eisenfaust is the only new 4/6 medium mech that comes to mind.
The Apollo 4M, Osprey (4 jump), Rook NH-2 (6 IJJ), Thunderfox (quad, 3 jump), Hunchback 7R. This all TRO (75, 85, Prototypes, 3145) featured ones i could think of and could find.
Undoubtedly there are more new variants for older 'Mechs that are slow mediums. EDIT Strike that, none in RSNTNU3145 at least.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2017, 22:18:49 by Empyrus »

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #9 on: 28 April 2017, 22:22:08 »
Absolutely, there's absolutely a similarity with the Panther.  It didn't help that the Panther 10K was comically, historically bad, while the Vindicator 3L got double heatsinks and so while imperfect is actually pretty usable, and that even in the Succession Wars the Panther was a bit too light for its role, while the Vindi matched up pretty well with many other mechs like the Enforcer despite still being slightly light.

But, the Panther I think has made more of a come back.  Its not that it has great new models (they're pretty basic really) but it did get a clicky tech figure and a few notable pilots, the MUL gives it four new models in the 3070s and one as recently as 3139 (compare that with two 70s Vindicators, and none post 3078), and four Panther models appear on the MUL for the Combine in the Dark Age (compare to one Vindicator, and two more suspected).  For refrence, the Enforcer basically transitions into the Enforcer III, and has four 70s variants and one from 3104, with five entries on the FedSun MUL in the Dark Age.  The Panther is more prominent on the DC RATs from 3145 than the Vindicator, while the Enforcer is less prominent than either.  The Lyrans don't have a signature medium I can think of, but the Zeus (that's a medium for the Elsies, right?) is still doing very well thanks to the Zeus X, and the FWL is a hot mess at the best of times so I don't know which iconic mech to compare for them (and this is as a serious League aficionado).  Maybe the Orion, which is doing better than the Vindicator, but less well than the Zeus or Panther (though the League lost Kalidasa, while the CC at least still owns Capella).

And of course, position in the RATs and number of entries in the MUL don't tell us everything about how prominent a given mech is, to be sure. 

But, I don't have for my part much else to go on (at least on the quick) so that's the best sort of analysis I can do, and it hints that the Vindicator has been much more forgotten than other mechs that were once its peers.  And considering that it was absolutely the indelible symbol of the Confederation (the FedRats appropriated the Cataphract and the Raven was a boondoggle after all) its fall from grace is quite stark.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #10 on: 28 April 2017, 22:24:11 »
I read somewhere that a lot of the 1AA variants that survived the 4th War were "gifted" to the nascent FRR.  Which probably did very little for their longevity.  I really would like to see a new take on the AA concept.  You can do "too fast for its own good" so right in the 3100s, and don't even have to gimp it like the original.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #11 on: 28 April 2017, 22:29:15 »
The MUL would back that up: it disappears from the CC in Late SW Renaissance, and shows up with the FRR instead through the Jihad, after which it's extinct. The Taurians also pick it up for the Civil War and Jihad eras.

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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #12 on: 28 April 2017, 22:33:48 »
I read somewhere that a lot of the 1AA variants that survived the 4th War were "gifted" to the nascent FRR.  Which probably did very little for their longevity.  I really would like to see a new take on the AA concept.  You can do "too fast for its own good" so right in the 3100s, and don't even have to gimp it like the original.

I quite agree.  Doing that above look at what survived, one of the new darlings of the Davions seems to be the Centurion.  Now, the fluff explicitly attributes that to Yen Lo Wang in several time periods, and I suspect that's as true in as out of character.  But, unlike the Enforcer and Vindicator and Panther, it got an XL engine and a speed boost.  The Avenging Angel has been around for years (since the 80s near as I can tell) so the idea isn't new, it's just one waiting for someone to run with it.  The 5L was a good shot, but a lovely 32nd century variant with an XL and some fancy new toys would really be a shot of life for the old war horse (which we're told was more common than any mech in the Confederation save the bug trio in 3025).

Of course, I think the reason is partially the mech's sloth and partially Xin Shang.  Would that I knew Chinese for "Vindicator" I'd say just rename the mech to that, tune the 6L up a bit (not stealth armor, but some other fancy new thing) and call it good.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2017, 22:36:54 »
Where the hell did Taurians get their Avenging Angels? The only plausible explanation i can think of is that the St. Ives Compact had mothballed their AAs, and these were then donated to the Taurians after the St. Ives was absorbed into the CapCon.
Otherwise, the FRR must have sold/donated some of theirs to the Taurians.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2017, 22:38:43 by Empyrus »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2017, 23:04:27 »
Or the Tauries are just crazy enough to make some on their own time.  They've got to have some 1Rs in a shed somewhere.  Or maybe the Cappies didn't give all of their 1AAs to the FRR, and foisted some off one the TC during the Trinity Alliance.  "Look, here's some upgraded Vindicators for you!"
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iamfanboy

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #15 on: 29 April 2017, 00:25:06 »
Absolutely, there's absolutely a similarity with the Panther.  It didn't help that the Panther 10K was comically, historically bad, while the Vindicator 3L got double heatsinks and so while imperfect is actually pretty usable, and that even in the Succession Wars the Panther was a bit too light for its role, while the Vindi matched up pretty well with many other mechs like the Enforcer despite still being slightly light.
It says something about how terrible the designs were in 3050 when you can say, "At least this one is usable because it's only oversinked by 5 points even on a jumping alpha."

I really wish that if CGL retconned ANYTHING, it would be TRO3050. Maybe have the models in the book be 'showroom' models being produced by factories and designers who didn't know a bloody thing about how to use Star League tech, but with some commonsense field upgrade kits, the ones that Hanse negotiated for and sent to the front, made canon. "Here's your WHM-6Rr with ERPPCs and DHS, oh, we knocked two DHS, half a ton of MG ammo, and the Small Lasers out to put in more armor..."

Instead we get retcons like the Rampage - a fine design, to be sure, but it irks me that four years before Amaris started buttering Richard Cameron up he somehow convinced the Hegemony to give up XL Engines, DHS, Endo Steel. Y'know, all the stuff that the Hegemony relied on to retain their edge?

But oh well. I'm not in charge of development. Probably for good reason - I'd tick off a LOT of players...  ;D

sadlerbw

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #16 on: 30 April 2017, 11:46:12 »
I find it a bit annoying that the FRR ended up saddled with the -1AA variant. It makes sense in a 'these are junk and we are dumping them on you' way, but the regular -1R would have fit so much better. I mean, the other unit the FRR had boat loads of, thanks to being able to produce them, was the Panther. So, instead of having two tough 4/6/4 mechs that are perfectly speed matched and affective at the same ranges, you end up with one tiny trooper and one moderately agile glass cannon. Panthers and regular -1R's would have been a tougher nut to crack, but oh well.

I can't say I ever really loved the Vindi, but I do respect it. I've played against many of them as OpFor, and they are almost universally annoying! Maybe not the most deadly of mediums, but frustrating to kill with just enough of a punch to mess up my plans. It is a bit of a shame it has been left behind by Xin Sheng, but time moves on I guess.

Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #17 on: 30 April 2017, 12:17:52 »
I find it a bit annoying that the FRR ended up saddled with the -1AA variant. It makes sense in a 'these are junk and we are dumping them on you' way, but the regular -1R would have fit so much better. I mean, the other unit the FRR had boat loads of, thanks to being able to produce them, was the Panther. So, instead of having two tough 4/6/4 mechs that are perfectly speed matched and affective at the same ranges, you end up with one tiny trooper and one moderately agile glass cannon. Panthers and regular -1R's would have been a tougher nut to crack, but oh well.


Annoying? Beggars can't be choosers. Giving away the AAs was basically double-ploy for the Capellans. First, it makes a show of strength: "Despite the Fourth Succession War, we can afford to gift 'Mechs to other states". Second, it allowed them to get rid of the AAs and replace them with newer equipment.

Though to be honest, i'm not sure the Cappies could really afford to give away anything... I would assume the Cappies deemed it uneconomical to break down them to parts, presumably transportation was arranged with diplomats traveling to the FRR, otherwise even transporting them can't have been economical.

I love the flavor the Vindy AAs give to the Free Rasalhague Republic. What other nations uses Steiner, Kuritan and Liao designs in their army? Shame this state of affairs didn't last...

I may need to transfer a Vindicator from my Capellan unit (it has two at the moment) to my generic 'Mechs so that i can use them for the FRR. That will leave a hole in the roster though...

glitterboy2098

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #18 on: 30 April 2017, 14:39:30 »
too bad the FRR never really had the resources to retrofit the -1AA's back to standard. or to come up with their own variant. (perhaps downgrading the PPC to a LL in order to fit some armor back on.)

Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #19 on: 30 April 2017, 14:47:38 »
I doubt it was a resource issue. More likely it the 'Mech was not worth the effort to modify.
Also, i seem to recall that the Vindicator was never a hit among mercenaries due to limited spare parts availability, the FRR might have had the same problem.

Simply coating the Avenging Angel with ferro-fibrous would offer a modest boost to armor, that is something i wish someone had made.

Ruger

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #20 on: 30 April 2017, 14:52:00 »
I personally love the Vindicator and have at least 3 or 4 miniatures of it...However, I always wished we had seen a better refit of it for the 3050 timeframe...say drop all extra heat sinks, make the rest doubles, replace the PPC with an ER PPC and the small laser with a pair of MG's and a half ton of ammo, add CASE, and upgrade the engine and jump jets for 5/8/5 speed on a standard engine...

Not as oversinked as the actual 3050 model, but still a cheap unit with improved versatility...

Then again, I also like the thought of a "Flaming Vengeance" model armed with Plasma Rifle and flamers...

 }:)

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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #21 on: 30 April 2017, 15:20:34 »
Flaming Vengeance, eh? That gives me an idea for a custom variant...

I'll borrow the name.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2017, 15:27:05 by Empyrus »

ajcbm

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #22 on: 30 April 2017, 16:30:46 »
There is also a Vindicator armed with SRMs used by the WoB/Marian Hegemony. It was written about in "Double Blind".

Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #23 on: 30 April 2017, 16:37:19 »
Master Unit List has only 11 Vindicators even when looking for units without Battle Value. If there is another Vindicator, it has never received a record sheet. EDIT MUL missing something is not impossible. As i noted above, the robotic Vindicator variant is missing a MUL entry.

Naturally, this is not terribly unusual, there are a lot of variants that appear only once, probably customized by individuals instead of being production variants or common refits.

JadedFalcon

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #24 on: 30 April 2017, 17:55:18 »
The VND-3L does have the advantage of being able to deliver jumping alpha strikes while on fire. The oversinking also lets it fight on despite engine damage.

Can't help but wonder if the Vindicator was starting to be seen as a symbol of leaner times for the Confederation, making it harder for the mech to make a comeback.

Kinda wish there were more ad-hoc or specialized variants from the late succession wars, for when adequate parts weren't easily secured, or when the Vindicator had to step in for a role for which it wasn't originally intended.

Elcor05

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #25 on: 30 April 2017, 22:05:35 »
I'm disappointed that the Vindicator isn't really being made anymore :( It was my favorite trooper 'mech when I first got into the game when I was a kid, and it's my mech of choice whenever I play MWO. It'll never win races, but if the Confederation ever needed to mass produce a bunch of mechs, the Vindicator is a good choice. Although, that said, if they're ever in that position again they're in trouble. I'm sure the modern Cap pilot would rather have a Sha Yu, Agrotera, Eyleuka, Yao Lien, Calliope, Omnimech or Clan Mech. That said, I think that if it ever comes back its return will be be...vindicated  8).
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #26 on: 30 April 2017, 22:12:15 »
There is no indications it is not being made anymore... unless some source i don't have states otherwise.

If it is being made, the the variants produced are probably the 4L, 5L and maybe 6L. The latter two suffer from low speed though, not counting TSM.

Of course, if it is getting made, it ain't no longer a frontline 'Mech but something for reserve and militia units.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2017, 22:14:14 by Empyrus »

The Eagle

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #27 on: 30 April 2017, 22:41:53 »
I always liked the Vindicator; it started my trend of "I like this 'Mech but I dislike the dirty Capellans."  It was simply a tough little trooper with nothing flashy but good at its job.  Compared to its neighbors' nation-specific trooper mediums, it stacks up well:

vs. Enforcer: Same speed.  Enforcer has superior firepower, but the Vindicator has a longer range.
vs Hermes II:  Hermes II is faster -- significantly so, actually -- but the Vindicator has better hitting power at a similar range.  The Hermes II pilot needs to really leverage his/her speed to get the upper hand here, and the two are fairly evenly matched even at point blank range.
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Elcor05

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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #28 on: 30 April 2017, 23:30:36 »
There is no indications it is not being made anymore... unless some source i don't have states otherwise.

If it is being made, the the variants produced are probably the 4L, 5L and maybe 6L. The latter two suffer from low speed though, not counting TSM.

Of course, if it is getting made, it ain't no longer a frontline 'Mech but something for reserve and militia units.

Very good point! I'd love a new variant, but that doesn't seem likely :(
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Re: Mech of the Week: Vindicator
« Reply #29 on: 01 May 2017, 00:47:22 »
Well, if we take the MUL as authoritative (as we're told to do) then we see that only the refit is available to the Confederation in the Dark Age era. Now, RATs tell a difrent story.  Either way, I don't think we can speak to production; we know Ceres is still around, but not that they make the Vindi. We know other factories make Cataphracts and Crusaders and such, so its not all Xin Chang all the time.  But, I think we can say the mech is no longer a Capellan staple or the most common non-bug mech, as it once was.
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