Author Topic: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold  (Read 225731 times)

Highball

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #60 on: 24 July 2017, 01:02:26 »
Guys -

Cool it. CGL's website is NOT the place to assemble pitchfork- or torch-bearing lynch mobs. Further inflammatory posts will result in warnings.

You do not riot in our place, thank you very much.

Worktroll, Ombudsman [copper]

This is not about pitchforks, torch-bearing mobs or riots boss. This is about the community congealing to put a stop to Harmony Gold messing with the Battletech IP once and for all. This can be the Clarion Call for the Battletech Community to stand up as a whole against the bully known as Harmony Gold.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #61 on: 24 July 2017, 01:04:33 »
I thought the Hasbro suit was settled out of court...

The hasbro suit was dismissed with prejudice (so Harmony Gold can't refile), and Hasbro resumed selling the set in question.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #62 on: 24 July 2017, 01:05:42 »
This is not about pitchforks, torch-bearing mobs or riots boss. This is about the community congealing to put a stop to Harmony Gold messing with the Battletech IP once and for all. This can be the Clarion Call for the Battletech Community to stand up as a whole against the bully known as Harmony Gold.

On the official site of one of the named defendants doesn't seem the best place for that. 
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #63 on: 24 July 2017, 01:10:37 »
I am in the process of having this case reviewed by an actual copyright attorney. I am also working on a summary of previous legal actions, at least those known publicly, for someone who is interested in doing a commentary video on the current lawsuit and what it could mean for the video game side of things. If or when these people release their thoughts on the matter, I will share them with everyone.

That said, Piranha may be in trouble. While HG's claim that the Atlas, Locust, and Shadow Hawk are derivative of Macross machines is laughable, those aren't the main subjects of the lawsuit. The primary models involved are Piranha's versions of the Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Phoenix Hawk. Those machines do resemble the original Macross models quite a bit, and deliberately. Scanning through the documents filed doesn't reveal Harebrained's defense, as far as I can see, but they did demand a trial by jury, which already has a date set: September of 2018. As CGL is a wholly-owned subsidiary of InMediaRes, HG seems to be skipping them to go right for the parent company.

Honestly? This doesn't look great. IMR/CGL may be able to squeak away from this by disassociating themselves from HBS/Piranha (after all, they are different IPs now) and showing that their "Classics" are substantially different from the originals. But HBS/Piranha is playing with fire, and in particular that Archer may come to bite them in the ass.

The bottom line is that this is not an obviously "bad faith" nor a frivolous lawsuit. It is a very serious and real action, and one that the court may very well decide in Harmony Gold's favor. I think HG is jerks, but you cannot ignore their IP rights.

This is not about pitchforks, torch-bearing mobs or riots boss. This is about the community congealing to put a stop to Harmony Gold messing with the Battletech IP once and for all. This can be the Clarion Call for the Battletech Community to stand up as a whole against the bully known as Harmony Gold.

DON'T. I'm going to say this (hopefully) once: taking independent action against Harmony Gold not only opens you up to legal action by them, it also weakens HBS and IMR's defense. This is what the courts are for, and internet vigilantism will not help. Let the professionals do their jobs.
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Highball

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #64 on: 24 July 2017, 01:18:54 »
So are you folks saying that fans wanting the company to set up a funding page for the defense of the company that people can contribute to is wrong and borders of vigilantism?
Marshal Russell Trest Oberlan. "War to the sword ..... the sword to the hilt!"

pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #65 on: 24 July 2017, 01:19:54 »
Considering Lucasfilm never sued over the Urbanmech... I mean lets face it. It's R2D2 with legs and guns :o

Liam's Ghost

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #66 on: 24 July 2017, 01:24:03 »
So are you folks saying that fans wanting the company to set up a funding page for the defense of the company that people can contribute to is wrong and borders of vigilantism?

There are a lot of reasons why organizing it here would be the wrong thing to do.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #67 on: 24 July 2017, 01:27:56 »
I am not a lawyer, so I might be off on this thought... but wouldn't it be ironic if the Playmates vs. FASA (MadCat Ripoff...) was one of the legal precedents cited on behalf of the defendants in this case? It would just feel somewhat poetic to me.

That case was dismissed with prejudice, meaning Playmates effectively won. Since the "heavy attack E-frame" never actually made it into production, it was - in the end - not a violation of copyright. In fact, FASA was in the wrong to sue Playmates. Aside from that one toy prototype, their case was extremely weak, and all it did was open FASA to the countersuit that brought in Harmony Gold.

Look, I want to see BattleTech strong and proud. I want to see the Classics on the battlefield. Just look at my avatar! But we must face the facts instead of mindlessly rooting for our "team."

So are you folks saying that fans wanting the company to set up a funding page for the defense of the company that people can contribute to is wrong and borders of vigilantism?

*sigh* I'm not new to the internet. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: no, don't do that, either. If IMR/HBS need money for their defense, let them ask first, or just buy their products.
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Charbok

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #68 on: 24 July 2017, 01:39:50 »
The really interesting potential outcome- my dream scenario, if you will, would be for Studio Nue to lean into this with the verdict from Japan saying that they own the Macross rights and Tatsunoku's deal with HG should be voided.  That chases off IP Squatting Patent Troll HG from the Macross rights and brings in a far less litigious entity that presumably could be dealt with like adults.

I'm more in favor of people who make things as opposed to 1%ers who got rich by scamming and suing everything in their path.

That said, I've already opined that the day the elderly Mr. Agrama goes to his reward should become a nerd holiday.  Perhaps like a Labor day, with an outdoor picnic and lots of beer if weather is appropriate, or a Thanksgiving-esque large meal celebrated with like-minded individuals.  If the latter, I'd be in favor of a  possible taco-centric meal, because tacos are delicious.

Spenetrator

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #69 on: 24 July 2017, 01:44:49 »
As Colbosch said, Pirahna may be in trouble about the classics, but in my honest opinion CGL's reseen Marauder and Warhammer look more like the original source (though still clearly different) than the Pirahna equivalent.

I just can't honestly believe that Pirahna, HBS, and CGL didn't or don't have a plan in place to deal with an infamously litigious IP holder, especially as they have clearly invested in getting these produced. I Assumed the new designs had been run past HG's lawyers and had been found to be fine.

We can only cross our fingers and hope: A: that's the case, and B: that that the plan in place is enough to torpedo HG's small army of lawyers.

pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #70 on: 24 July 2017, 01:51:34 »
It is stated in the claim that PGI sent HG 2 different prototype mock ups of new art and both were rejected and never used. Reading that then one would wonder did the same get done for the others including the art from CGL? Would PGI/CGL use art that HG didn't like if they had prior interactions in 2013? If that was done and there was no issue prior to HBS joins the reseen fun, why then would HG sue unless it is because HBS is owned/run by by Jordan and HG is still pissed about the HG/FASA settlement, that or they just have it out for anything Jordan is working on...

Sartris

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #71 on: 24 July 2017, 01:53:01 »
Honestly? This doesn't look great. IMR/CGL may be able to squeak away from this by disassociating themselves from HBS/Piranha (after all, they are different IPs now) and showing that their "Classics" are substantially different from the originals. But HBS/Piranha is playing with fire, and in particular that Archer may come to bite them in the ass.

Yeah, I cringed at the Archer comparison while reading the brief. Unsure what to make of IMR's involvement besides being roped in as part of the crowd of usual suspects.

Also, it normal for a company in IMR's position to allow a default judgment against them? What does such a judgment actually do? It's not like CM: Mercs and CampOps have been pulled.

I just can't honestly believe that Pirahna, HBS, and CGL didn't or don't have a plan in place to deal with an infamously litigious IP holder, especially as they have clearly invested in getting these produced. I Assumed the new designs had been run past HG's lawyers and had been found to be fine.

That CM: Mercs even saw the light of day with the warhammer on the cover was quite a surprise to me. I'd be floored if they just looked at the designs and said "yup, that'll hold in court. print it."

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Spenetrator

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #72 on: 24 July 2017, 02:09:30 »
I'd be floored if they just looked at the designs and said "yup, that'll hold in court. print it."

My thought exactly... Fingers and toes crossed.

Frabby

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #73 on: 24 July 2017, 02:21:58 »
FASA did not, to my knowledge, lose the Exosquad (MadCat) lawsuit because it didn't go into production, but because the court positively ruled that the similarities between that Exosquad thingy and a FASA MadCat weren't close enough for the action to succeed - though the court then also ruled that Playmates had pushed the envelope to the absolute brink, so FASA was ruled to have acted in good faith versus Playmates deliberately seeing what they could get away with, and FASA thus didn't have to bear Playmates' costs.

Still, I believe HG is facing an uphill battle against Piranha Games in the light of that earlier ruling.

As far as Jordan Weisman and Harebrained Schemes are concerned, it may be worth noting that Harmony Gold is basing their action on breach of contract allegations here, the contract in question being the secret settlement agreement from 1996. They can only bring this to bear on Weisman and HBS, but Piranha is unlikely to be affected by that contract in any shape or form.

I believe Harmony Gold somehow mixed up the images in their action against Weisman and HBS. They just don't make sense as-is. I suppose this can be remedied in court, though, by presenting new or additional images.
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ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #74 on: 24 July 2017, 02:43:16 »
FASA did not, to my knowledge, lose the Exosquad (MadCat) lawsuit because it didn't go into production, but because the court positively ruled that the similarities between that Exosquad thingy and a FASA MadCat weren't close enough for the action to succeed - though the court then also ruled that Playmates had pushed the envelope to the absolute brink, so FASA was ruled to have acted in good faith versus Playmates deliberately seeing what they could get away with, and FASA thus didn't have to bear Playmates' costs.

No, not quite. FASA sued Playmates, but the "heavy attack E-frame" was just one point of contention. FASA claimed that the entire Exosquad property violated their copyrights, using examples like "mecha" and "genetically-engineered enemies." But you are correct that the judge did actually rule that the e-frame wasn't close enough to the original Mad Cat to be infringing, so that's my mistake.

That said, "dismissed with prejudice" is a ruling for the defendant. FASA absolutely lost, but the judge did feel that their lawsuit was legally justifiable - that is, not frivolous nor in bad faith - so both sides paid their own fees. Copyrights are meant to be defended in civil courts, so if FASA was concerned then the judge could not penalize them for using the system as intended.
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ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #75 on: 24 July 2017, 02:49:08 »
I think we're arguing over agreeing here, Frabby. :D The precise, fiddly details are not super-important here. Let's move on.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #76 on: 24 July 2017, 02:50:52 »
Let us hope that between the Playmates ruling and the Hasbro ruling all parties no named Harmony Gold have both legs to stand on.

And am I the only one who hates comparing battlemechs to nekkid women?? Playmates used to mean something to us old *&%#*@$ *&$^@*#

Feenix74

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #77 on: 24 July 2017, 03:30:48 »
"The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable." - Sun Tzu (the original one from 500 BC)

Well the silver-lining is that we might get a definitive court-enforceable ruling on the classic mech imagery for PGI/HBS/CGL/IWM/et al  which would mean that all TPTB could then start rolling out the classics with extreme prejudice and without fear.

I personally like the idea of contributing to a crowd-funding effort to help fund PGI/HBS/CGL/IWM/et al's legal defence vs the Not-Named Company but I fully understand the sensitivities against organising such an effort here. So I will scrimp and save up my pennies to buy the BattleMech Manual and TRO:Succession Wars along with my purchase of SW2 even thought I do not really need either of those sourcebooks because this is the most effective way I can help in the "war effort".

PGI/HBS/CGL/IWM/et al - Good luck and good hunting O0
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ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #78 on: 24 July 2017, 03:42:41 »
Skipping back a little here...

Yeah, I cringed at the Archer comparison while reading the brief. Unsure what to make of IMR's involvement besides being roped in as part of the crowd of usual suspects.

Randall Bills has blog posts extolling HBS' BattleTech video game, and stating his participation with it (and thus implying IMR/CGL's participation). Per the lawsuit, until those posts, HG wasn't really aware of anything they'd consider infringing, but once they saw the MWO/BTPC Warhammer they dug deeper and found a bunch of stuff they feel violates both their copyrights and the contract they signed with Jordan Weisman settling the 1996 lawsuit. Now they've added a lot of the "Classic" imagery found in CM: Mercs, etc., to the suit.

As of last I checked, only Harebrained Schemes has responded to the lawsuit, and their response was pretty much "Yes, Jordan works for us, yes we're from Washington, we don't know anything else, and we deny everything." They're passing this off on Piranha who are, after all, the folks who came up with did the controversial designs. We'll have to wait and see what they and IMR respond.
« Last Edit: 24 July 2017, 03:46:45 by ColBosch »
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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Major Headcase

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #79 on: 24 July 2017, 04:27:59 »
I have been pining away fipor the return of the classics since the new Warhammer pic was released, what, 2 years ago? Longer? So I understand the angst, but a revelation came over me just tonight.
I have been putting off getting a number of minis, hoping to be able to get the new designs, especially the Marauder, but after reading about HGs newest round of fun-destroying Trollery I looked back at getting the currently available  IWM designs ( you know, the anorexic Marauder and the Warhammer that got hit in the face with a shovel...) and i finally made up my mind:
Forget the classic unseen style designs! Let HG and the dead Robotech ip have them! This issue has dragged Btech down and held it back for DECADES! Let them go. Forget the old mistakes and move on. Embrace the mechs as they are now and move on. I won't wait any longer, I'll fill my gaps with current IWM  designs and learn to love them and clean the Btech slate.
Seriously, if this game is to survive and not keep lugging around "back in the good old days" comparisons and grudges, then it needs to focus on the designs and creations NO ONE ELSE can call into question ever again! Just give the current designs a makeover to maybe fix some minor issues, and embrace them!
Again, I'm an old Btech veteran. First mechs were the plastic unseen core set, I UNDERSTAND! But enough is enough.

pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #80 on: 24 July 2017, 04:46:07 »
I wouldn't mind the reseen if they weren't so hideously UGLY. I won't pay for them for any reason. Never never never never. I would rather mold my own designs as proxies.

Domi1981

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #81 on: 24 July 2017, 04:47:50 »
Meanwhile on the Harmony Gold executive floor


ANS Kamas P81

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #82 on: 24 July 2017, 05:01:36 »
The lawsuit against PGI is pretty on-point from what I saw.  Not sure that Piranha's got much in defense, other than potentially claiming they had no idea of anyone else owning copyright.  ...Good luck with that.

From what I understand, the Classics art that was provided was determined to be legally different enough that it could be used.  I would have imagined this would have been done as some kind of legal review, even to the point of (the legal equivalent of) contacting HG and saying 'does this violate your IP in your opinion' - at which point, if HG said 'no go ahead and use it' then CGL has carte blanche.  If that wasn't done, then CGL is in trouble.  (And honestly might well deserve it)

The crux of the legal argument is the use of the PGI imagery - most of which is extremely similar to the Classics designs.  Compare the Rifleman and Archer between CGL and PGI; they're practically exactly the same.  In my entirely non-legal opinion, this is where the trouble comes in - if HG wins its argument that one set of art is an IP violation both sets of art are.  At which point CGL, having used those images to sell product (i.e. generate profit), is knowingly in breach of agreements made previously, and exposed to penalty fines.  THAT kills the Battletech, and this is my fear.  Hopefully I'm mistaken in this; I'll happily accept Bosch's commentary.

Honestly, at this point CGL's best option IMO is just let the Classics and Unseen go completely, switch everything to the Reseen, and call it a day.  If they can, at this point.
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Sharpnel

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #83 on: 24 July 2017, 05:09:02 »

,Snip>
Honestly, at this point CGL's best option IMO is just let the Classics and Unseen go completely, switch everything to the Reseen, and call it a day.  If they can, at this point.
I agree wholeheartedly agree with this part of your post. As soon as the Project Phoenix (PP) came out, the TPTB and the fandom should have just retconned the Unseen out of existence and their collective memories. Hell, I like most of the ReSeen and most, if not all, of them are so well done that we all should have been happy with got from PP that we should have forgotten about what was lost.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #84 on: 24 July 2017, 05:12:01 »
Also, if people are wondering WHY this is happening now?  Besides the continuing rollout of "Classics" in MWO, there's this little thing brewing.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/robotech-movie-director-andy-muschietti-direct-1021744

Sony currently has the film rights to Robotech, and is working on a production.  This is a potential multi-hundred-million-dollar investment in a franchise.  Harmony Gold has every legal requirement to lock down its IP before this happens, and frankly?  A Robotech movie (or even a series) interests me a hell of a lot more than further BT products.  I love the game, I love the setting, but it's very small scale and is barely a blip on anyone's radar.  A giant robot movie done well (bite me, Bay) has a lot of great potential.
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Feenix74

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #85 on: 24 July 2017, 05:21:53 »
I have been pining away fipor the return of the classics since the new Warhammer pic was released, what, 2 years ago? Longer? So I understand the angst, but a revelation came over me just tonight.
I have been putting off getting a number of minis, hoping to be able to get the new designs, especially the Marauder, but after reading about HGs newest round of fun-destroying Trollery I looked back at getting the currently available  IWM designs ( you know, the anorexic Marauder and the Warhammer that got hit in the face with a shovel...) and i finally made up my mind:
Forget the classic unseen style designs! Let HG and the dead Robotech ip have them! This issue has dragged Btech down and held it back for DECADES! Let them go. Forget the old mistakes and move on. Embrace the mechs as they are now and move on. I won't wait any longer, I'll fill my gaps with current IWM  designs and learn to love them and clean the Btech slate.
Seriously, if this game is to survive and not keep lugging around "back in the good old days" comparisons and grudges, then it needs to focus on the designs and creations NO ONE ELSE can call into question ever again! Just give the current designs a makeover to maybe fix some minor issues, and embrace them!
Again, I'm an old Btech veteran. First mechs were the plastic unseen core set, I UNDERSTAND! But enough is enough.

As a purveyor of fine miniature pewter armaments, can I interest you in some primitive versions that look much nicer than the reseen?

Marauder MAD-4X [20-5085]


Hammerhands HMH-3D [20-443]


Rifleman RFL-1N [BT-322]


Note for Mods - Yes I am aware of Forum Rule No. 10. No I am not trying to sell minis to this fine, upstanding gentleman. I am trying to use humour to make him aware that there beautiful primitives as an alternative to ugly reseens. [Waves hand in a vague gesture] You don't need to see my identification . . . These aren't the miniature that you are looking for . . . I can go about my business . . . Move along. ^-^
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pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #86 on: 24 July 2017, 05:39:07 »
As much as I would love a live action Robotech movie I don't think it will happen. How many time have the film rights been picked up over the years?? They haven't even gone beyond Shadow Chronicles to my knowledge and that is animated.

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #87 on: 24 July 2017, 05:42:21 »
PGI's mecha are VERY more different from Macross related designs that they certainly have a fighting chance.  I would be more nervous with CGL's versions than those.
Someday those old men will retire, I wish it would happen sooner.  I keep praying Sony would buy them out of existence. 
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lrose

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #88 on: 24 July 2017, 05:46:13 »
That said, Piranha may be in trouble. While HG's claim that the Atlas, Locust, and Shadow Hawk are derivative of Macross machines is laughable, those aren't the main subjects of the lawsuit. The primary models involved are Piranha's versions of the Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Phoenix Hawk. Those machines do resemble the original Macross models quite a bit, and deliberately. Scanning through the documents filed doesn't reveal Harebrained's defense, as far as I can see, but they did demand a trial by jury, which already has a date set: September of 2018. As CGL is a wholly-owned subsidiary of InMediaRes, HG seems to be skipping them to go right for the parent company.


And one of the key points in the suit is that HG is trying to link HBS to Piranha Games - See sections 23, 28 and 29.   Apparently HBS has a license of some sort from Piranha Games and HG is using that as a basis to sue them even though it does not appear that HBS has used any questionable images so far (even in that Beta none of the mechs that are available are based on the HG Unseen).  HG may have an action against Piranha Games, but the inclusion of HBS seems more then a bit questionable.

Domi1981

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #89 on: 24 July 2017, 05:48:35 »
Could this be the first time its actually "good" that the IP is split up between so many companies? Better call Saul!

 

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