Author Topic: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?  (Read 4941 times)

haesslich

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #30 on: 13 August 2017, 23:17:44 »
I can understand it as tech advancing in the Golden Century.  I mean an Clantech LRM shouldn't require magic minerals to be half as heavy as an IS tech LRM, it just benefits from hundreds of years of advancement.  Just like a computer from the 90's is smaller and has more power than a computer from the 80's.  Or like how armor can improve from BAR 5 to BAR 9 to standard to ferro.  New methods of manufacturing without an entire arbitrary 'tech base'.

But I assume that 'tech base' is like FASAnomics.  It's just something cooked into the game.

(and yes, I think the Improved PPC and Enhanced PPC should be IS tech base.  The Improved PPC is going to be more expensive than the standard PPC, so there would be that factor.)

There's also going to be a demand on the secondary market for an IS improved PPC.  Good for units that had a clan spec ER PPC and can't afford to replace losses.  Or for units that had a snubbie, and want more range.

To put your computer examples in context, in those ten years there wasn't a leap in technology like that between SL and Clantech - the architecture between the early 8088 and the 80486 didn't advance that much, and the improvements in performance weren't  the same type of advancement we get in Clantech.

Jumping from SL to Clan techbases is more akin to the twenty year gap between the 80286 and the Core series architecture used since 2005 or so.

The changes here didn't result come  from use of completely different minerals and elements, so much as how they were used, the tools and processes needed to make them work as they do, along with two decades of advancement in architecture design as well as how chips are built with the inclusion of a lot of the bridges and busses that used to require separate components on the motherboard becoming part of the CPU package itself, as well as the refinement of the equipment and development of new ways to etch circuitry.

Clan Tech assumes that you've not only gotten the right materials, but ask the manufacturing capability to produce it in bulk, with relatively low rates of  failure, and that you've also gotten the knowhow to adapt those processes to cope with issues previously unforseen.

While the jump between Clan and IS ERPPC technology from outside the universe looks like 50% more damage, one less ton and one less Critical slot, it's probably more that components which focus the particle beam or which generate them are far more efficient in Clantech (or just smaller so they can pack more into the same package) than IS tech bases can afford to output in large numbers,just because they're not as experienced or efficient due to poorer tools or understanding. And why would you assume it'd be cheaper to  make it or buy enhance IS-spec ERPPC, given that it competes with a product that weighs less, isn't as fragile, and does more damage in its own (Clan) technology base, and with a product that more people make and is otherwise identical save for a bit less damage?  If you need the gear and knowledge to make Clan ERPPC to make Enhanced IS-spec ERPPC, why Mahe them when I get more value out of going all-in?  Why invest in mass production of a product which competes with a better one (Clan spec) or one which has a more competitive market (IS spec)? Why risk it when there's no guarantee of a decent ROI due to it being in that odd position? Especially if it takes resources away from the better product (which I can charge that premium for due to undeniable effectiveness displayed in the invasion)?

So that jump in damage in the enhanced  ERPPC? If you can do that, what is the point when it probably depends on the same extra components or refinements in gear and manufacturing that Clantech requires?

Or to go back to the computer examples you dragged out, I could take a i9 back to 1980 with the specs, but while Intel existed then, I can pretty much guarantee that the fabs could not reproduce it as the etching tech we use now just didn't exist then. I'm also not sure if our xray machines had five enough resolutions with the films back then to make it possible to study this this structures were laid down. We'd have to advance the material sciences, chemistry, engineering, and refine the knowledge of how to program for that architecture do it could actually DO  things.

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« Last Edit: 13 August 2017, 23:31:44 by haesslich »

Col Toda

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #31 on: 14 August 2017, 05:46:07 »
Clan base tech is a development of culture and mind set as much as technical advantage . Their whole society revolves around Qualitative excellence and the avoidance of material waste. An individual Clan has to equip tens of thousands of troops while a successor state in the Inner Sphere has to equip tens of millions of troops. This means they can put up with  massive failure rate because anything that does not pass QC would just get recycled. The Clans do not sweat it as they are equipping three orders of magnitude fewer people.

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #32 on: 14 August 2017, 14:56:43 »
I'm sure a reading of Era Digest: Golden Century might clarify where the Clan Technology Base came from....
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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #33 on: 14 August 2017, 16:10:57 »
I'm sure a reading of Era Digest: Golden Century might clarify where the Clan Technology Base came from....

There are some interesting numbers there. 

If they settled in the Pentagon, in 2786, that's 37 years before the Enhanced ERPPC was in full scale manufacturing, 36 before the Adders had Streaks online (Amusingly there's overlap between the Enhanced and the Clan version in manufacturing)

These two sections catch my eye though. (Golden Century, page 6)
"The group primarily responsible for the advanced capabilities of the weapons that now grace our modern weapons? The
Star League."

"The limitations were not in creating the devices but primarily in manufacturing them, a problem the Inner Sphere faces as they gain access to our weapons. The cutting edge manufacturing skills of the Star League were scattered across countless resources and only the Great Father had enough of that data to move forward. .... They also have not been able to take that next step, requiring manufacturing on a level that we have not mastered.Nor likely will manufacture for a millennia."

Now since this is an in character document, some of the times are suspect, between the character's limitations and the revision of Clan history in the past.  But this does seem to lead to that it's not magic metals or tech but R&D and production.  Which makes me wonder why Terra/Wobbies didn't have more clan spec technology, given how Earth seems to have been able to keep all nice and shiny pre-jihad.

I find the last sentence the most suspect "Well those Spheroids with their trillions more people, hundreds more worlds and manufacturing won't be able to make Clan Tech in a thousand years!"

Were you referencing this or another section of the Era Report?



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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #34 on: 15 August 2017, 10:34:58 »
Which makes me wonder why Terra/Wobbies didn't have more clan spec technology, given how Earth seems to have been able to keep all nice and shiny pre-jihad.

Well, Kerensky picked over the most advanced stuff and a lot of the research probably wasn't happening on Earth.

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Hominid Mk II

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #35 on: 16 August 2017, 13:16:16 »
So that jump in damage in the Enhanced ER PPC? If you can do that, what is the point when it probably depends on the same extra components or refinements in gear and manufacturing that Clantech requires?

That just doesn't sound right to me. It weighs the same as the IS ER PPC, it has the same bulk and it even costs the same amount. It can't be anything like as radically altered from the IS ER PPC as the Clan ER PPC is. So it would need a lot less retooling of a factory to put it into full-scale production. It would be well worth doing and the Successor States should logically have done it decades ago, as of the 3045/3050 era.
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HABeas2

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #36 on: 16 August 2017, 14:22:06 »
It would be well worth doing and the Successor States should logically have done it decades ago, as of the 3045/3050 era.

Is this the point where someone points out that what the Inner Sphere should "logically" have been able to manufacture explodes exponentially over the course of hundreds of years and thousands of living planets they had since the fall of the Star League. Technically speaking, the crap from the Star League should be long obsolete by 3025.

But, you know, ComStar and stuff.

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #37 on: 16 August 2017, 14:30:25 »
Is this the point where someone points out that what the Inner Sphere should "logically" have been able to manufacture explodes exponentially over the course of hundreds of years and thousands of living planets they had since the fall of the Star League. Technically speaking, the crap from the Star League should be long obsolete by 3025.

But, you know, ComStar and stuff.

I meant some time in the the decades since The Blake Documents was published in-universe, letting everyone in the Inner Sphere know that the Enhanced ER PPC is possible even if it doesn't contain design specs for it.

Do we know for sure that Uncle Chandy didn't have access to such specs, BTW?

Edit: Oops, silly me... this is a member of the ruling family of the PPC-loving DC we're talking about. If he had access to specs, the DC would have put the Enhanced ER PPC into production. Period.
« Last Edit: 16 August 2017, 14:33:14 by Hominid Mk II »
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HABeas2

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #38 on: 16 August 2017, 14:43:32 »
I meant some time in the the decades since The Blake Documents was published in-universe, letting everyone in the Inner Sphere know that the Enhanced ER PPC is possible even if it doesn't contain design specs for it.

That becomes a "what's the point?" moment. They had several proven flavors of PPCs and the PPC Capacitor, plus (thanks to having the Nova Cats as pets), the DC had access to Clan PPCs. They didn't NEED what amounted to the proto-Clan ER PPC.

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #39 on: 16 August 2017, 15:18:12 »
That becomes a "What's the point?" moment. They had several proven flavors of PPCs and the PPC Capacitor, plus (thanks to having the Nova Cats as pets), the DC had access to Clan PPCs. They didn't NEED what amounted to the proto-Clan ER PPC.

Not sure I can agree with that. Capacitors are explodey and take time to charge. And the creeping Black Dragonization of the DC would have made a slowly but steadily increasing proportion of the DCMS unwilling to rely on the Nova Cats. The Enhanced ER PPC would have given them an additional option. No military can ever have too many of those!
« Last Edit: 16 August 2017, 15:21:13 by Hominid Mk II »
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Sartris

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #40 on: 16 August 2017, 15:35:01 »
Not sure I can agree with that. Capacitors are explodey and take time to charge. And the creeping Black Dragonization of the DC would have made a slowly but steadily increasing proportion of the DCMS unwilling to rely on the Nova Cats. The Enhanced ER PPC would have given them an additional option. No military can ever have too many of those!

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #41 on: 16 August 2017, 15:40:07 »
A weapon installable today is vastly superior to anything that only exists on paper.

True. But the IS has had decades of peace/minimal warfare between the Jihad and the Dark Age/Age of Destruction to get around to putting the Enhanced ER PPC into production. And I think logically they should have done.
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HABeas2

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #42 on: 16 August 2017, 15:48:25 »
True. But the IS has had decades of peace/minimal warfare between the Jihad and the Dark Age/Age of Destruction to get around to putting the Enhanced ER PPC into production. And I think logically they should have done.

But, again, that's only if anyone took an interest. In this universe, nobody has. You could win this argument and convince everyone in this discussion that they *should* have (well, this being the internet, convincing anyone of anything is really unlikely), but for whatever reason, they simply didn't. Anyone who looked at it seriously clearly considered it a waste of time and/or resources, shrugged, and moved on. These things happen. We shrug, and we move on to better things.

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #43 on: 16 August 2017, 15:52:28 »
But, again, that's only if anyone took an interest. In this universe, nobody has. You could win this argument and convince everyone in this discussion that they *should* have (well, this being the internet, convincing anyone of anything is really unlikely), but for whatever reason, they simply didn't. Anyone who looked at it seriously clearly considered it a waste of time and/or resources, shrugged, and moved on. These things happen. We shrug, and we move on to better things.

Different things, yeah. Whether or not they're better is another matter - and a different argument too, I suppose. But life's too short.
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Robroy

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #44 on: 16 August 2017, 16:40:35 »
I think the problem with anyone developing the eERPPC is the timing. When it shows up the IS is focused on the PPC variants they have created and building the clan ERPPC.

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Col Toda

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #45 on: 16 August 2017, 17:46:38 »
By the Dark Age inner sphere manufacturers are making very limited amounts of Clan weapons . Many Inner Sphere Dark Age unit comes with a single primary or 2 secondary Clan Spec weapon out of the factory as a Stock mixed tech unit. If you went to the trouble of reverse engineering a Clan ER PPC why would you bother with going to an inferior one.

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #46 on: 19 August 2017, 11:11:27 »
But, again, that's only if anyone took an interest. In this universe, nobody has. You could win this argument and convince everyone in this discussion that they *should* have (well, this being the internet, convincing anyone of anything is really unlikely), but for whatever reason, they simply didn't. Anyone who looked at it seriously clearly considered it a waste of time and/or resources, shrugged, and moved on. These things happen. We shrug, and we move on to better things.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #47 on: 19 August 2017, 11:14:28 »
Except the Scorpions...
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Re: Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?
« Reply #48 on: 19 August 2017, 11:47:21 »
But would that be new construction or the absolute bottom of their last Caches?

Well they're marked 'returned to production'
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