Author Topic: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)  (Read 14121 times)

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
(Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« on: 28 September 2017, 15:44:27 »
The Crossbow (IIC?) Oh..just the Crossbow then.

Background

The Crossbow started life way back in the late 2800s during the Clans Golden Century.  Designed by Clan Steel Viper who wanted to kickstart their OmniMech production, with them being newcomers to the field they were aided by group of Clan Snow Raven Scientists that had been captured and claimed by the Vipers. 

The design itself was hardly innovative, and could be called extremely conservative, featuring very little in the way of advanced technology in its construction and limiting the pods to the arms.  These arm pods are quite unique, more like a detachable turret with a plug and play link up, the arms can be swapped out and replaced with new pods very quickly.
Later variants did change this slightly with the addition of weapons to the torso but the Mech’s arms are where you will always find the primary armament.

Still, despite these drawbacks the 65 ton Mech is far from useless.  Its dirt cheap to produce, uses little resources but is tough and has a potent targeting system that, if you get into short ranges becomes lethally accurate.

Design

At 65 tons the Crossbow is very much a heavy Mech and its 325-rated standard engine let it hit typical Clan heavy Mech speeds of 86kph at a full run.  The designers didn’t try mounting jump jets and no advancer materials went into the Mech’s construction. So that’s no endo-steel and no ferro-fibrous armour, and with a large and heavy standard engine, it cuts down on what the Crossbow can carry.

But this also makes the damn thing very tough, and 12 tons of armour give it good protection, with a hide thicker than that of a Mad Dog or Loki (admittedly a soggy biscuit has more protection than a Loki) and the Crossbow boats similar protection to the wildly popular and successful Summoner.

9/19/26/19 (9/13/9)
18/18/26/26

But all this heavy standard equipment does bite into what the Crossbow can carry, and a somewhat meagre 16 tons of pod space are available.  Still despite this the Vipers and their Raven Scientists did manage to make it a viable machine, one that saw a lot more variants than one would think for a Mech that had clear design limitations worked into its hull.

And that tends to be simple but effective design choices and pairing up weapon systems of the same type.

One other thing was that the Crossbow design is VERY handsome, at least in my mind, its sleek and elegant, lots of artfully worked curves, not the brutalist styling of Clan Omni’s seen in REVIVAL, but something that’s more…1930’s sports car elegant.

Variants

Prime – The simple but effective weapon mix starts here.  A pair of LRM-20’s with Artemis IV fire control, each fed by a 2-ton ammo bin and that’s it. 
Under gunned for a Clan 65 tonner but still not bad, 40 missiles are a whole lotta spam, and the Artemis is a nice touch, less useful later on with the proliferation of ECM though.  Still 2 tons per launcher gives you adequate endurance by Clan standards, and of course, the Clan LRM’s don’t care what range you’re at when fighting so don’t be afraid to get close. 

Alfa – An attempt at a multi-role version the A is very much a jack of all trades and master of none.  A pair of LRM-5’s gives some long-range firepower but at best it’s a tickle, so if you can, load up with other ammo, but this is Clans, pre-REVIVIAL so they won’t.
The A is instead much happier at close range, a pair of Medium pulse lasers and SSRM-6’s gives it a good punch, but it’s still very weak for a 65-ton machine.  The good thing is that its BV is dirt cheap so that’s a plus for sure.  The Streaks and pulsers let you deal with faster foes and this thing can quite happily bully a light or medium, but its outgunned by many heavies.

Bravo
– The B takes the A’s “I’m a jack of all trades” approach and throws it out the window.  A quartet of Streak 6’s, two in each arm are what the Bravo packs and each has their own ton of ammo, so, thanks to them being streak launchers, you’re not going to have the typical Clan ammo problems any time soon.   Whilst it lacks a knock down punch, the B can sandblast a Mech’s armour off whilst also making a serious threat to tanks and Battle Armour.  This may well be its role as the missile spam can cripple Elementals outside of the battle armours effective range to reply.  Still, you don’t want to let this thing get close, and its fast enough to do it considering the period that it was encountered by the Inner Sphere. 

Charlie – New toys time and of course it’s not a H so we all know what that means, ATM time.  This time it’s an ATM-6 in each arm with a nice and generous 3-ton ammo bin per launcher allowing full use of the ammo types available.
The Charlie also features the first torso mounted weapons in the form of a pair of Heavy Machine guns, one in each side torso to help caramelize infantry forces.  An ECM is added to the mix too. 
The C like the B lacks a knock down punch, but like the B, it’s another sand blaster, the threat of 12 HE missiles can’t also be underestimated.  The C is screaming out to be paired up as a bodyguard, its big brother makes the holes and this fills them with explosives.

Delta – A bit of a weird one, I’m not sure where this is from but it screams SOCIETY to me.  Instead of missiles for support we see the newly introduced Mech Mortar get rolled out in a Crossbow variant.  The D has a Mech Mortar-8 in each arm and each draws from their own 3-ton ammo bin allowing for flexibility with the ammo choices available to the Mortars. 
Of course, the Mortars have their own drawbacks, they have a 180-meter minimum range and don’t do much damage.  But, their range is nice, the flexible ammo types are a bonus too.  Unfortunately, you only get 4 shots per ton so if you do break out the special ammo, beware you get only 4 shots of it.  (Seriously, what calibre is this mortar?  The largest mortar in service today fires a 240mm round and that weighs 130kg, a MM-8’s round is 250kg, is this thing a sawn-off battleship cannon?)
A pure support unit, the D is vulnerable to anyone who gets close and it can’t really fight on its own due to its limited damage.  Take with friends, put friends in front of threats and rain HE down on baddies.  Not your friends, it tends to irk.

Echo – The E was designed by someone who REALLY liked APGRs and had a serious hatred on for infantry.  Eight, yes eight Anti-Personnel Gauss Rifles live in EACH ARM, and these are all linked into a targeting computer.  This allows the E to spit out a huge volume of relatively light damaging shots to medium ranges (literally Medium laser range).  Sure, if all 16 APGR’s hit the same spot that’s more damage than a double tap from an Ultra-20, but you would have to have Lady Luck and Admiral Awesome smiling upon you that day if it did happen.  Oh and six tons of ammo let you hammer away.
So basically, what we have is another sandblaster, much like the Prime, A, B and C.  Put this near any infantry formation though if you want them to go away in a cloud of hypersonic flechettes.

Hotel – It’s a H so we all know what that means.  Finally, we move away from being a sandblaster!  The big showpiece of the H is its Heavy large laser, which brings a big punch to the table.  To counter the heat surge pumped out by the laser, four more heatsinks are installed.  The rest of the weapons are a curious hodgepodge.  A LRM-15 and its 2 tons of ammo live in the other arm and this provides cover whilst the H gets into range for its heavy laser, but then it falls a bit flat.  A quartet of LMG’s with half a ton of ammo between them fill out the rest of the weapons and these live in the torso.  This curiously makes the H over-sinked and removing one heatsink in favour of even a pair of ER Smalls would have been a better choice.  Still it’s got a good punch and its not totally defenceless at long range.

Uniform – A product of the Wars of Reaving the U is an ultra-specialized underwater fighter, meaning that you won’t see it outside of special deployments.  But its very very good at what it does, even if it is in a limited role.
To do its role the U has a pair of LRT-10’s as well as a pair of SRT-2’s for close in work.  As most Mech’s that fight under water don’t feature weapons specialized for the environment, so this gives the U the ability to engage at longer ranges than most threats can return fire. Finally, a pair of ER Mediums give good, dependable firepower.  The final polish on this underwater fighter’s sheen is a full group of UMU’s to allow it to move faster than a typical Mech when underwater. They have to walk, this thing can zum along thanks to its prop-pods. 
Although extremely specialized, its good at what it does, but don’t expect to see this in a pick-up game.
 
Thoughts

A family of sandblasters, the Crossbow is under gunned, cheap but quirky.  Fast and tough, with enough firepower to make it a viable threat on the battlefield but not suffering from Kit Fox-itus where you have too much firepower but are squishy and thus easily removed.  The Crossbow, to me, makes a good wing-man. It can engage a distracted opponent or move in to take out a badly damaged target with its many crit seeking weapons.  All but one lacks any real knock down wallop and rely on flaying the armour off with repeated strikes or relying on a lucky crit.  Still they can sandblast quite easily thanks to the weapons choices.  And, fortunately, there’s no donkey choices with LB or Ultra 2’s which would eat into the available tonnage far too much. 
Even the Crossbow D is okay, as its built to operate in a situation where Zell’s been thrown screaming from a building whilst on fire.  It’s a pure support unit and its designed to operate in an environment where it would be supported.  Hint, don’t take the D out and expect to solo someone who’s not an infantry platoon.

What we get is a good support platform, but not an outstanding one.  Don’t have too high expectations of it doing amazing things, but the Crossbow won’t underperform if it is allowed to do its job either. 

Fighting one, go for the arms, limb one and you get rid of 100% of their firepower in most variants. Otherwise it’s a case of leg it or core it.  Since all their ammo is carried in the arms, you can’t really kill them that way (also, standard engine) so it’s more a case of applying sledge hammer to object until it falls apart.









Presumably what the D's guns are based on, that's a 15-inch howitzer.


As always, thoughts and comments are most welcome.

« Last Edit: 28 September 2017, 15:55:41 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #1 on: 28 September 2017, 17:46:43 »
I'd initially thought that this one had been done before; I realized it had, just a decade ago (September 07).  Seems like less than that, somehow...

In any event, my decade old conclusions are broadly still valid.  It's problematic from a chassis standpoint, but manages to make itself usable by using some of the best weapons in the game for it's Prime and B variants (the A is pretty forgettable, and the others come from a different design team).  Fact is, 40 guided Clan LRMs is enough to make a threat out of any mech, or 24 streak SRMs if your zombie nature allows you to get in close.  As noted, it's as tough as you can make it, which combined with it's poor power means it will tend to be a mech that lasts late into battles.

Truthfully, I'd have liked to see a laser configuration or two.  The vast empty crit space just cries out for massive banks of heatsinks.  Something in the mold of the Nova H, perhaps, might have actually made use that space, or even something utterly silly with a mass of ER small or micro lasers or something. 

The revised fluff makes the mech make a lot more sense, as a very early Omni that simply hasn't been retired but rather just given fresh guns over it's two century old bones. 

One thing I have enjoyed is using it with an IS unit in a campaign.  The idea was that it would be tremendously easy for IS techs to repair and keep in the field, and not really that valuable to trade away.  Usually I'll do a single big energy weapon (HLL, ER PPC, HPPC) and a suite of MLs for close in work.  Still not a great mech, and even worse if you are forced to use IS weapons, but a fun change of pace and something you can be sure no one else will be using.
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #2 on: 28 September 2017, 23:26:24 »
I'd initially thought that this one had been done before; I realized it had, just a decade ago (September 07).  Seems like less than that, somehow...

In any event, my decade old conclusions are broadly still valid.  It's problematic from a chassis standpoint, but manages to make itself usable by using some of the best weapons in the game for it's Prime and B variants (the A is pretty forgettable, and the others come from a different design team).  Fact is, 40 guided Clan LRMs is enough to make a threat out of any mech, or 24 streak SRMs if your zombie nature allows you to get in close.  As noted, it's as tough as you can make it, which combined with it's poor power means it will tend to be a mech that lasts late into battles.

Truthfully, I'd have liked to see a laser configuration or two.  The vast empty crit space just cries out for massive banks of heatsinks.  Something in the mold of the Nova H, perhaps, might have actually made use that space, or even something utterly silly with a mass of ER small or micro lasers or something. 

The revised fluff makes the mech make a lot more sense, as a very early Omni that simply hasn't been retired but rather just given fresh guns over it's two century old bones. 

One thing I have enjoyed is using it with an IS unit in a campaign.  The idea was that it would be tremendously easy for IS techs to repair and keep in the field, and not really that valuable to trade away.  Usually I'll do a single big energy weapon (HLL, ER PPC, HPPC) and a suite of MLs for close in work.  Still not a great mech, and even worse if you are forced to use IS weapons, but a fun change of pace and something you can be sure no one else will be using.

You'd done this O_o  it didn't show up when I did a search for it on the articles :s
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12021
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #3 on: 29 September 2017, 00:07:27 »
Anyone Else think the C config could easily be used as a basis for a Society iATM design? swap the launchers, then drop the HMG's to standards and  replace the ECM with a Nova CEWS..

or just drop the HMG's entirely for another 2 tons of ammo for the iATM's.

i agree the mech mortar version seems odd for the clans.. according to the MUL, it's earliest users are Blood Spirit, Snow Raven, and Steel Viper (though it is on the Clan general list).. which really doesn't help narrow it down.

Jihad era adds the Stone Lions, afterwards it is just the Ravens (due to lack of info on the homeworlds, probably)
« Last Edit: 29 September 2017, 00:09:18 by glitterboy2098 »

Firesprocket

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
  • Broke the Bandwagon
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #4 on: 29 September 2017, 01:36:45 »
I quite like the design except for the fact over half the configurations lack any use of the side torsos.  The worry being a critical roll against then ends up transferring to the center torso and quickly eating the engine or gyro.

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7904
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #5 on: 29 September 2017, 02:29:29 »
The mortar-8 is supposed to be an eight shot mortar, not one big one.  :P When it was first introduced in the Tactical Handbook of old, you were supposed to use the missile hits table to determine how many shots hit. In fact, the Mech Mortar-8 was the first such weapon to use a then non-standard means of resolving the number hit (roll on the 4 table and multiply by two).

In fact, the Mortar-8 might actually be firing smaller diameter shells than the smaller mortars, since it's got too many shots to align with the smaller ones.

As for the Crossbow, I've always been fond of it. I kinda wish the Snow Ravens had given the plans to the Outworlds Alliance. As omnis go, it's a great starter.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Sharpnel

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13414
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #6 on: 29 September 2017, 04:00:38 »
I've hated the Crossbow for a long time due its ridiculously low pod space and, initially, all of the weapons being arm-mounted only. I still hate it.
Consigliere Trygg Bender, CRD-3BL Crusader, The Blazer Mafia
Takehiro 'Taco' Uchimiya, SHD-2H Shadow Hawk 'Taco', Crimson Oasis Trading Company

"Of what use is a dream, if not a blueprint for courageous action" -Adam West
As I get older, I realize that I'm not as good as I once was.
"Life is too short to be living someone else's dream" - Hugh Hefner

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2308
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #7 on: 29 September 2017, 07:13:32 »
I've always been a fan, actually, since it's the perfect 'Mech for my Blood Spirits: low cost, low tech, high durability.  In fact, I firmly believe the H configuration was a Spirit-designed variant because they adopted the heavy lasers fairly quickly and the LRM-15 is one of their most-proliferated weapon systems.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4498
    • Tower of Jade
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #8 on: 29 September 2017, 09:41:44 »
I've always been a fan, actually, since it's the perfect 'Mech for my Blood Spirits: low cost, low tech, high durability.  In fact, I firmly believe the H configuration was a Spirit-designed variant because they adopted the heavy lasers fairly quickly and the LRM-15 is one of their most-proliferated weapon systems.

Agreed. The fact that the Ravens helped produce it makes it possible that the Spirits received some Crossbows from the Ravens.

Conversely, I see the Echo variant being developed by the Vipers/Adders to counter the large number of conventional infantry Stars the Spirits fielded.
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #9 on: 29 September 2017, 12:25:32 »
You'd done this O_o  it didn't show up when I did a search for it on the articles :s

It wouldn't, having been lost in the crash of 2011 and not reposted (by design, so that folks like yourself would never feel weighed down by prior authors' work).  There was also a CWD article in 2003 about it (that was before my time, so I have no memory of it).  You can see titles of the lost articles on the archive thread (you have to go down to the third and fourth post): http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=174.0

I just noticed, CWD also did his Crossbow article in September.  Makes it three for three.
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #10 on: 29 September 2017, 14:22:09 »
One thing to remember about the Echo: one crit to an arm and the mechwarrior's head is liable to melt.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Sjhernan3060

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #11 on: 29 September 2017, 18:47:16 »
I've always been a fan, actually, since it's the perfect 'Mech for my Blood Spirits: low cost, low tech, high durability.  In fact, I firmly believe the H configuration was a Spirit-designed variant because they adopted the heavy lasers fairly quickly and the LRM-15 is one of their most-proliferated weapon systems.

Same. Did you mod your minature?

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2308
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #12 on: 30 September 2017, 09:03:10 »
I don't actually have one.  Yet.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

Crow

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 387
  • Scientist-General
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #13 on: 30 September 2017, 10:08:56 »
While I've always been a bit of a fan of the Crossbow's sleek aesthetics, I find the 19 points of armor in the side torso to be a huge turn off given that there are no crit padding in either torso. Common weapons like ERLLs or LPLs, or even 3 ERML blasts will go straight through to crit the center torso.  #P 

IMO this design would be way better if it had ES or FF and just put even one more ton into armor. Oh well.

Fun fact is the Crossbow is on the 7 position of the 3150 Raven Alliance RAT. How weird is that?
« Last Edit: 02 October 2017, 14:54:58 by Crow »
YOU DARE REFUSE MY BOOF?

jklantern

  • LAM of Shame
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3408
  • Designated Snack Officer of the Diamond Khanate
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #14 on: 30 September 2017, 14:15:57 »
While I've always been a bit of a fan of the Crossbow's sleek aesthetics, I find the 19 points of armor in the side torso to be a huge turn off given that there are no crit padding in either torso. Common weapons like ERLLs or LPLs, or even 3 ERML blasts will go straight through to crit the center torso.  #P 

IMO this design would be way better if it had ES or FF and just put even one more ton into armor. Oh well.

Fun fact is the Crossbow is on the 7 position of the 3145 Raven Alliance RAT. How weird is that?

I mean, they battled the Vipers a LOT, and captured Raven Scientists originally made it, and I'm assuming it's cheap to make.  Could either be salvage or they put it back into production in sheer desperation.  Since I dig the Ravens, the Vipers, and this mech, I am okay with this.
I'm not sure how long you've been around on the forums, though you have a thousand posts. Never take anything JKlantern says seriously unless it's about food.

Firesprocket

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
  • Broke the Bandwagon
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #15 on: 01 October 2017, 00:42:11 »
Fun fact is the Crossbow is on the 7 position of the 3145 Raven Alliance RAT. How weird is that?

Which pub has that?  I have both FM and ER 3145 and neither of them has any mention of the Crossbow.  Not that it wouldn't make good sense to restart Omni production with as much KISS as possible when the Ravens relocated.  The only factory that was known to make them was vaporized during the sacking of the Vipers at New Kent.

JPArbiter

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3139
  • Podcasting Monkey
    • Arbitration Studios, your last word in battletech talk
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #16 on: 01 October 2017, 01:39:20 »
I always wondered why comstar was so focused on the Battle Cobra when this beauty could be built off the shelf, technology wise.
Host of Arbitration, your last word in Battletech Talk

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #17 on: 01 October 2017, 02:31:18 »
From the description in TRO: 3058U, it had to do with the number of Battle Cobras they captured more or less intact.

And honestly, reverse-engineering the Battle Cobra gave them a better than this thing.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13224
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #18 on: 01 October 2017, 03:40:01 »
One thing to remember about the Echo: one crit to an arm and the mechwarrior's head is liable to melt.
I've been calling it the Popcorn Crossbow since I first saw it.  One APGR crit means another crit roll which is probably going to be another one or two APGRs, ad nauseam until the lid comes off.  The pilot, of course, is quite long since expired, and what's even funnier is that Clan-tech CASE means even a worst-case arm loss still means the seat can be hosed off and the 'Mech driven out as salvage.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7178
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #19 on: 01 October 2017, 05:41:09 »
The lack of side torso equipment was likely an act of sabotage from the Raven scientists.  ;)
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #20 on: 01 October 2017, 09:19:13 »
I've been calling it the Popcorn Crossbow since I first saw it.  One APGR crit means another crit roll which is probably going to be another one or two APGRs, ad nauseam until the lid comes off.  The pilot, of course, is quite long since expired, and what's even funnier is that Clan-tech CASE means even a worst-case arm loss still means the seat can be hosed off and the 'Mech driven out as salvage.

It's got 16 explosive slots in case of crit.  I don't think there's any other mech that comes close to that (not counting mechs like the Fafnir since they can only be critted once on a given side).
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Firesprocket

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
  • Broke the Bandwagon
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #21 on: 01 October 2017, 11:03:47 »
The Kraken 3 has 16 I believe.  Have to feed all those LRMs ammo somehow.

wantec

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3875
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #22 on: 02 October 2017, 07:08:57 »
The mortar-8 is supposed to be an eight shot mortar, not one big one.  :P When it was first introduced in the Tactical Handbook of old, you were supposed to use the missile hits table to determine how many shots hit. In fact, the Mech Mortar-8 was the first such weapon to use a then non-standard means of resolving the number hit (roll on the 4 table and multiply by two).

In fact, the Mortar-8 might actually be firing smaller diameter shells than the smaller mortars, since it's got too many shots to align with the smaller ones.

As for the Crossbow, I've always been fond of it. I kinda wish the Snow Ravens had given the plans to the Outworlds Alliance. As omnis go, it's a great starter.
What he said. I'm pretty certain a Mech Mortar 8 is 8 mortars, like it's done with LRMs. In that case, a single round for the MM8 would be 31.25 kg.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7904
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #23 on: 02 October 2017, 13:16:26 »
What he said. I'm pretty certain a Mech Mortar 8 is 8 mortars, like it's done with LRMs. In that case, a single round for the MM8 would be 31.25 kg.

That being said, there's a couple pieces of art (the Antlion and a vehicle whose name I forget) that depicts their mortars as single tube weapons. Even then, though, I expect it's more a rapid fire autoloading thing.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Crow

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 387
  • Scientist-General
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #24 on: 02 October 2017, 14:56:01 »
I've been calling it the Popcorn Crossbow since I first saw it.  One APGR crit means another crit roll which is probably going to be another one or two APGRs, ad nauseam until the lid comes off.  The pilot, of course, is quite long since expired, and what's even funnier is that Clan-tech CASE means even a worst-case arm loss still means the seat can be hosed off and the 'Mech driven out as salvage.

This really makes me reassess how I feel about the Summoner Z, to be honest.  :-\
YOU DARE REFUSE MY BOOF?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #25 on: 02 October 2017, 16:59:11 »
That being said, there's a couple pieces of art (the Antlion and a vehicle whose name I forget) that depicts their mortars as single tube weapons. Even then, though, I expect it's more a rapid fire autoloading thing.

IIRC, every depiction of a Mech Mortar in the artwork has been a single-tube weapon.  Obviously it fires in bursts.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7904
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #26 on: 02 October 2017, 18:36:29 »
IIRC, every depiction of a Mech Mortar in the artwork has been a single-tube weapon.  Obviously it fires in bursts.

Honestly, now that you mention it the only depictions I can think of are the two I mentioned earlier. I wonder if there are any other examples.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #27 on: 02 October 2017, 19:58:56 »
The Ha Otoko-HR in XTRO The Clans is the only other one I know of.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13224
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #28 on: 03 October 2017, 02:29:43 »
Mechmortar 8 reminds me of something like a faster-firing AMOS that's automatically ToTing its fire.  *chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk* "You got time to duck?"
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Sjhernan3060

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #29 on: 03 October 2017, 11:01:36 »
Does anyone have picts of other configs of this they made?

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #30 on: 04 October 2017, 09:44:08 »
*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk*chunk* "You got time to duck?"

I see what you did there...and I approve!

Anyway, the Crossbow is one of those mechs I tend to largely ignore. It isn't good enough OR bad enough to hold my attention. For a clan mech, it does feel overweight for the performance, but I guess that is what happens when you throw out any advanced construction options the clans have available. Honestly, it feels more like something the Inner Sphere should have come out with around 3100 and been super-proud of, "Hey guys, we finally figured out how to make Clan-spec LRM launchers! Haven't figured out how to do any of their other stuff yet, but it's a start!" It even looks like a Hammerhands that had its arms replaced with missile pods (yes, I know that makes no sense in real-world chronology.)
I feel like there were other Clan designs that did fire support or boated missile weapons better in both heavier and lighter mechs. Sure the Summoner does 'missile boat' better with its five extra tons, but in my opinion, the Puma also does missile boating better than the Crossbow and it is only 30 tons! The Ryoken also does 'missile mech' better than the Crossbow. The Ryoken F even does 'kill all the crunchies' better than the 'all the AP Gauss' Crossbow.

I guess, if the intent was to make the Crossbow feel like an old, less effective version of the 3050's Omnis then it succeeded. If it was supposed to be a GOOD mech at any point in its life...not so much. Why anyone bothered to keep making variants in the Civil War or Jihad eras is beyond me, and why it still shows up on the Raven's RAT in 3145 is even more inexplicable. The best reason I can think of is that the Crossbow was so effective at melting the pilots brain, but otherwise still working, when the arms went up that the core chassis rarely got destroyed.

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #31 on: 04 October 2017, 12:01:15 »
Though it's a bit of a surprise to me that the Vipers still use them in the 3050s, it's little surprise the Ravens and co would want them post Jihad.  After all, the engine, armor and structure are all built to a standard the Outworlds Alliance can handle.  Makes the mech easier to repair and maintain than perhaps any other Omni.  The nearest example is the Nova, and we know from TRO50U that it remained at least semi-common after spending 130 years out of production, so it's little surprise that the Crossbow would last as long in a Clan in even more desperate straights than the Clans in the Homeworlds were. 

Were it me, I'd have picked it for an IS conversion pretty early.  It would be easy enough to refit a factor that made the 60 ton Marlin to make a Crossbow (the OA knows how to make DHS and Omni tech, as seen in the Corax), which could then be fitted with Clan weapons for Raven front line units, and whatever old IS weapons were lying around for top OA units or Raven second line units.

As to it's matchup with lighter mechs, a Crossbow is only moderately more expensive than a high end light and yet has twice the armor.  Now, we all know that cost isn't really a good metric, since we all imagine that a high tech Clan could probably make XLs cheaply, but for the Ravens in the OA or perhaps a Clan like the Wolves or Foxes moving homes, it might well be easier to get a Crossbow with an IS standard engine in it into the field than an Adder or Cougar, either of which the Crossbow could best in battle (even with it's poor configurations being matched up against the Cougar's sublime configurations; port over a few variants from the Battle Cobra, send a twin LPL Crossbow out there, and folks will be singing a different song still).
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #32 on: 04 October 2017, 16:16:31 »
Certainly one 'problem' I have with it sticking around is that many of the official variants are super gimmicky. Really? Two Mortar 8's? 16 AP Gauss rifles? So, you are going to go infantry hunting...with a heavy OmniMech...and make it so focused that it is likely to get taken apart by any mech it runs across with more than a couple medium lasers? Sorry, that is the sort of goofy un-clan-like stuff that solhama in standard battlemechs would get stuck with, or maybe Elementals. In the civil war era when these variants supposedly appeared, the Clans were still reasonably Clan-like. No one who rates an OmniMech is going to put up with being a dedicated infantry hunter, or attacking their enemy hidden behind a hill like a coward. That sort of stuff is grounds for a trial of refusal!

If you ignore the gimmick variants, I just don't see much left that would justify keeping this thing around. I'm pretty sure the Clan version of the Ha Otoko from 3060 would do anything the Prime, B, or C variants could do, and might actually be cheaper with its single heat sinks and standard LRM launchers! It might be a tick slower, but it significantly out-armors the Crossbow. There isn't much you can do with two LRM20's with Artemis, or 4 SSRM6's, or two ATM6's that you can't do just as well with 60 standard LRM's. The last two configs that aren't totally ammo dependant...well they look like they belong on a low-end medium mech. It's like the mech somehow managed to skimp on both firepower AND armoring, but still didn't end up getting much speed for the trade?

It's not that standard-engined omni's can't be done well. The Stooping Hawk would take a crossbow apart, and it has a standard engine and ten less tons. Yes, it does have Endo and Ferro, but still, it is a much bigger improvement than just those two space-savers can account for. Heck, a Nova, which has the Clan XL, but no Endo or Ferro, would probably still murder a Crossbow in most configs. The Crossbow just doesn't work for me. Most of it's Omni configs either feel like a flavorless missile boat, or gimmicky. To top it all off, the one variant that is actually different without being silly, the H, violates the whole 'only the arms were omni-capable' fluff! I would have respected its mediocrity more if they had at least kept all the weapons pod-mounted in the arms, but it doesn't even though there was enough space to do so!

Honestly, I don't know why I feel compelled to write so much about this mech. I don't like it all that much and tend to ignore it most of the time. Apparently I've got some pent-up disappointment in this design I needed to get out!

Firesprocket

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
  • Broke the Bandwagon
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #33 on: 04 October 2017, 23:55:38 »
Certainly one 'problem' I have with it sticking around is that many of the official variants are super gimmicky. Really? Two Mortar 8's? 16 AP Gauss rifles? So, you are going to go infantry hunting...with a heavy OmniMech...and make it so focused that it is likely to get taken apart by any mech it runs across with more than a couple medium lasers? Sorry, that is the sort of goofy un-clan-like stuff that solhama in standard battlemechs would get stuck with, or maybe Elementals. In the civil war era when these variants supposedly appeared, the Clans were still reasonably Clan-like. No one who rates an OmniMech is going to put up with being a dedicated infantry hunter, or attacking their enemy hidden behind a hill like a coward. That sort of stuff is grounds for a trial of refusal!
Pretty easy to explain away the whys.  The Crossbow is a mech that they have in large quantities and yet is still significantly less glamorous than any other heavy mech they have.  Having perhaps the means of construction of pretty much any other Clan mech out there, it makes sense to test out the more recently developed weapon systems on a reliable and assumed low maintenance platform.  The D is definitely over specialized.  The E on the other hand is just another extreme volume fire platform that happens to also carry 16 weapons best suited to AP.  It still hurts quite a bit when you get hit by all those shots.

The pro here are:

-The design has decent, not max armor.

-It hits for crit or in the case against infantry or tanks its target is going to probably be a pill box after motive checks after it has completed its fire.

-The BV is 1558 for a Clan heavy mech that can put out a solid bleed.

The cons:

-The exploding gauss rifle(s) could be quite the show.

-It's a less than ideal Clan weapon system for a mech, but not entirely useless when you consider you only have 16 tons to work with.

Quote
If you ignore the gimmick variants, I just don't see much left that would justify keeping this thing around. I'm pretty sure the Clan version of the Ha Otoko from 3060 would do anything the Prime, B, or C variants could do, and might actually be cheaper with its single heat sinks and standard LRM launchers!
Somehow I don't see the Vipers interest in a standard IS geared throwback.  The version of the Ha Otoko that features LRMs and Mortars is something the Vipers probably would have seen very little of.  Why trade for a design that has to be shipped light years to deliver when they can just pod it into a mech they are comfortable with.?

Quote
It might be a tick slower, but it significantly out-armors the Crossbow.
It is 1 ton of armor.  That isn't a significant difference.

Quote
There isn't much you can do with two LRM20's with Artemis, or 4 SSRM6's, or two ATM6's that you can't do just as well with 60 standard LRM's. The last two configs that aren't totally ammo dependant...well they look like they belong on a low-end medium mech. It's like the mech somehow managed to skimp on both firepower AND armoring, but still didn't end up getting much speed for the trade?

It's not that standard-engined omni's can't be done well. The Stooping Hawk would take a crossbow apart, and it has a standard engine and ten less tons. Yes, it does have Endo and Ferro, but still, it is a much bigger improvement than just those two space-savers can account for. Heck, a Nova, which has the Clan XL, but no Endo or Ferro, would probably still murder a Crossbow in most configs. The Crossbow just doesn't work for me. Most of it's Omni configs either feel like a flavorless missile boat, or gimmicky. To top it all off, the one variant that is actually different without being silly, the H, violates the whole 'only the arms were omni-capable' fluff! I would have respected its mediocrity more if they had at least kept all the weapons pod-mounted in the arms, but it doesn't even though there was enough space to do so!
It is a Clan's first omni mech.  You don't do everything right on the first go around.  If once accounts for the terrain not being simply an open field and BV I'd be curious to see how these matched up.  As for the fluff, it is spread around between Bloodright and more recently 3058 pubs.  The Battle Cobra was the laser test bed and the Crossbow the missile test bed.  The original Crossbow was exclusively a arm only pod system.  Later developments overcame the issue that did not allow for anything to be otherwise mounted in the torsos. 

Quote
Honestly, I don't know why I feel compelled to write so much about this mech. I don't like it all that much and tend to ignore it most of the time. Apparently I've got some pent-up disappointment in this design I needed to get out!

That is fairly apparent.  This whole response though has led me to look over some the designs numbers for AS.  PV wise  I need to see what the numbers look like as compared to some other units I've been running recently.

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4498
    • Tower of Jade
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #34 on: 05 October 2017, 06:36:58 »
After re-reading the comments about the APGR explosion issue* I realized that the Crossbow could carry 16 Light Machine Guns and more ammunition for the same weight, giving the Vipers a slower, more heavily armored Piranha. But 1200 rounds of MG ammo is a bit much for most BattleTech games, so maybe a long range weapon or two could be installed.


* A.K.A. Terminal Pilot Brainfry
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

wantec

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3875
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #35 on: 05 October 2017, 06:46:51 »
Instead of AP Gauss, something similar could be made with a bit shorter range, but more damage per shot, the ER Small Laser. Add a supercharger and either a targeting computer or some other electronics/secondaries and you've got a potent close-range machine.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #36 on: 05 October 2017, 11:05:39 »
Actually, I think what you'd have there is a couple of Phantom Cs welded together.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

wantec

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3875
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #37 on: 05 October 2017, 11:36:56 »
Actually, I think what you'd have there is a couple of Phantom Cs welded together.
A little bit slower, but without an XL engine to worry about and more armor.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #38 on: 05 October 2017, 17:49:41 »
Lots of rebuttals

I’d say there is a difference between testing out new tech on a chassis, and making enough of them that it is listed as an official variant. If they were just using the crossbow as a T&E machine, those variants would have been in an XTRO or something. I understand that argument, but don’t find it terribly convincing.

Fair point about the Vipers not giving a fig about the Ha Otoko. I was mostly thinking about the IS clans.

Ok, I worded the bit about the armor being significantly better poorly. It isn’t just that 1 ton of armor was added, but more was moved from the rear to the front torsos, and I feel the Crossbow has too much armor on its rear torsos. So, the overall effect is that I feel the Ha Otoko is much better protected thanks to both a better allocation and the additional armor.

Lastly, if the Blood Spirits, clan we-have-no-resources, can make the Stooping Hawk as their first Omni (and really that was a discarded Ghost Bear prototype) I feel like the Crossbow could have turned out better than it has.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #39 on: 05 October 2017, 18:47:02 »
I’d say there is a difference between testing out new tech on a chassis, and making enough of them that it is listed as an official variant. If they were just using the crossbow as a T&E machine, those variants would have been in an XTRO or something. I understand that argument, but don’t find it terribly convincing.

Remember that those variants showed up in the same collection as the X variants for mechs like the Kingfisher and Cauldron Born, which obviously were test-beds for experimental weaponry.  XTROs aren't the only place for experimental designs.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2308
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #40 on: 05 October 2017, 20:37:26 »
Lastly, if the Blood Spirits, clan we-have-no-resources, can make the Stooping Hawk as their first Omni (and really that was a discarded Ghost Bear prototype) I feel like the Crossbow could have turned out better than it has.


The Stooping Hawk wasn't their first Omni.  It was just their first successful Omni.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

JPArbiter

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3139
  • Podcasting Monkey
    • Arbitration Studios, your last word in battletech talk
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #41 on: 06 October 2017, 00:45:03 »
Maybe the Ravens should engineer a Crossbow II. Flood the legs and torso with endo and ferro crits to up the weaponry tonnage .leverage artimes V and jump jets
Host of Arbitration, your last word in Battletech Talk

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12021
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #42 on: 06 October 2017, 01:09:08 »
actually i'd rather see the Crossbow get some mixed tech variants leveraging the more unique IS tech options. like MML's, MRM's, Thunderbolts, ELRM's, whatever. or maybe just a few with IS tech weapons in general. since the only real clan technology in the base chassis is the DHS and CASE, and the Ravens can almost certainly manufacture plenty of those items, the Crossbow would make a really good Omnimech for the Ravens to be supplying the regular Outworlds forces with. loading them with IS weapons would ease some logistical issues, and even after the clan weapons become more common, there are still a lot of IS specific weaponry options that the clans haven't duplicated.

Thunderbolts with say, X-pulse lasers would make for an interesting dynamic. or MML's with C3. etc

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #43 on: 06 October 2017, 01:33:53 »
Yeah the Crossbow is just screaming out for the Sharks to sell as a base chassis, stripped of weapons and you can then fit what you want.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Luciora

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5796
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #44 on: 08 October 2017, 01:34:38 »
I loved this mech since its introduction in Bloodright and it just screamed INGRAM to me.  So of course 2 decades or so later I finally but a second one and magnetized it to be able to swap weapon arms.  I'll post pics up at some point. I did the Prime to the B and was stumped on how to make the D, but i might have an idea now since the mech mortar isn’t a multi-tube weapon.

Does anyone have picts of other configs of this they made?

misterpants

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Bringing you the beats and grooves of Xin Sheng
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #45 on: 08 October 2017, 14:36:55 »
Yeah the Crossbow is just screaming out for the Sharks to sell as a base chassis, stripped of weapons and you can then fit what you want.

The Sharks were accused of doing just that to the IS market with the Ha Otoko (TRO 3060)
Avatar by Blackjack Jones

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #46 on: 09 October 2017, 07:49:10 »
So, I may be late to the party, but... what's so bad about spamming APGRs?
Besides explosion cascades.
I certainly think the design is 5 tons too heavy, but it's otherwise durable, dirt cheap, and with the tonnage it has, what specifically is bad about dancing on one party at a time?
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #47 on: 09 October 2017, 11:25:08 »
If I had to keep it short, my problems with this mech would be, in order: Explosive crits, lack of range, excessive tonnage for ammo, and having no ammo-independent weapons. To expand on that a bit:

- The range isn't that impressive. 3/6/9 is OK if you are in the Inner Sphere, but in clan-land...that's pretty much brawling range, and 5/8 isn't necessarily fast enough to get you in range without getting shot to shreds first.
- the damage isn't all that impressive either. 8T of guns, plus 6T of ammo and 2T of Targeting Computer for a max of 48 damage. Oh, and 6T of ammo is 15 rounds of fire. Or you could use SRM's. 4SRM6's is 6T, you only need 4T of ammo to get 15 rounds of fire, and the max possible damage is still 48. Ok, so the SRMs will do less damage on average than the APGR's thanks to cluster rolls, but if we add two more so that the average SRM damage is 48, we get 9T or weapons, 6T of ammo, and you can use the left over ton for an additional heat sink to keep the design very close to being heat neutral, or use it for a laser weapon of some sort. That leaves you with only 6 explosive crits instead of 16. Or, you can just use the Crossbow B with 4 Streak 6's. Max damage is 48, range is actually longer, generates the same heat on a running alpha as the APGR's, and only has 4 explosive crits for 15 rounds of fire. Oh, and the streaks give you MORE potential crit rolls than the APGR's.
- Literally, the ONLY thing APGR's do better than other standard weapon systems is damage conventional infantry, and really, how many 2D6 rolls do you need to off a platoon of infantry? Honestly, three APGR's is probably enough to render most conventional infantry units either wiped out or so depleted they aren't a threat. The Crossbow has 16 APGR's. Just how often do you get so much infantry in one place, with such easy to-hit mods on the multiple secondary targets that you could realistically want 16 APGR's? You could slap on six or eight LMG's instead and still be able to reliably reduce two stands of infantry a turn while also having a bunch of weight and heat left over for better anti-everything-else weapons.

The massive number of explosive crits is a big part of the problem, but even if that were a more sane number boated APGR's just aren't all that impressive. Also, by using so dang many of them, you need a fairly crazy tonnage in ammo to match the endurance of other clan mechs, which isn't much to begin with. If you drop it down to four APGR's per arm, you get three tons back from ammo, four tons of weapons, and one ton less on the TarComp. That is eight tons for lasers and missiles, and you STILL have enough APGR's to murder more infantry a turn than you can effectively target. Throw on an ERPPC, or ER Large and a couple mediums, maybe a few heat sinks, and now you have a much more useful mech. Still not a great one, but a much less limited and one-dimensional one.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #48 on: 10 October 2017, 02:27:13 »
On the 'Mech Mortars the D is equipped with why has no one ever developed a high speed version using the same tech that went into Ultra AC's? It would probably be easier to bug test on /4 and /8 Mortars.

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4498
    • Tower of Jade
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #49 on: 10 October 2017, 06:04:38 »
On the 'Mech Mortars the D is equipped with why has no one ever developed a high speed version using the same tech that went into Ultra AC's? It would probably be easier to bug test on /4 and /8 Mortars.

Aren't the mortar rounds are a little more explosive than the autocannon shells of an Ultra AC? I mean that could make a jammed 'Mech Mortar rather more exciting than anyone would like. :)
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #50 on: 10 October 2017, 09:56:29 »
Quote
Literally, the ONLY thing APGR's do better than other standard weapon systems is damage conventional infantry, and really, how many 2D6 rolls do you need to off a platoon of infantry? Honestly, three APGR's is probably enough to render most conventional infantry units either wiped out or so depleted they aren't a threat. The Crossbow has 16 APGR's. Just how often do you get so much infantry in one place, with such easy to-hit mods on the multiple secondary targets that you could realistically want 16 APGR's?

Time Travelling Crossbow at the Battle of Thermopylae?  Totally agree with you, unless you need an army wiped out, there's NEVER any need to use this many APGRs on a single unit.  But against Battle armour or protos however....
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12021
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #51 on: 10 October 2017, 12:27:08 »
The APGR config is definately a Elemental hunter hunter.. IMO, probably more of a specialist suit hunter.. the spread of heat resistant armor for BA means that the normal tool of BA hunting, Inferno's, aren't as universally effective any more.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #52 on: 10 October 2017, 22:14:00 »
Aren't the mortar rounds are a little more explosive than the autocannon shells of an Ultra AC? I mean that could make a jammed 'Mech Mortar rather more exciting than anyone would like. :)
Not likely as MM/8's only get 64 points of damage per ton

Ghost_msl

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #53 on: 11 October 2017, 00:49:42 »
The APGR config is definately a Elemental hunter hunter.. IMO, probably more of a specialist suit hunter.. the spread of heat resistant armor for BA means that the normal tool of BA hunting, Inferno's, aren't as universally effective any more.

I can see that - and with 16 hits of 3 points each you stand a resonable chance of killing 2 suits with about 10 to 11 points of armor each given a standard distribution of hits.
That's a good chunk of a Point down for the count in one salvo.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #54 on: 11 October 2017, 01:48:58 »
The APGR config is definately a Elemental hunter hunter.. IMO, probably more of a specialist suit hunter.. the spread of heat resistant armor for BA means that the normal tool of BA hunting, Inferno's, aren't as universally effective any more.

The quad Streak SRM 6s on the B do that just as well, though.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #55 on: 11 October 2017, 03:06:05 »
To me, APGRs aren't interesting over SRMs because of their damage or AI (though damage per ton is superb), but in that they can benefit from a Targeting computer.
And yes, 16 is too much, but 10 would be just fine.
Is the crossbow a great platform for that?
Well, no. But it's got a theme of sticking a lot of the same weapon in the arms, and I don't think this is much worse than any of the SRM configs.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #56 on: 11 October 2017, 13:55:22 »
The TC compatibility is extremely useful, both against infantry (not always the easiest to hit) and mechs alike.  But, much of the time, more accuracy can be achieved with more range.  Some LRMs will be more in a shorter range bracket right until three hexes, or a plasma canon could be used if you're not worried about mechs. 

That said, no one wanting an optimized mech will ever really seriously be looking at the Crossbow, so I'm not sure why an optimized configuration is really desirable. 
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #57 on: 11 October 2017, 17:27:27 »
The 'Mech Mortars are potentially a better anti-BA weapon then AP Gauss, they attack the hex, not a unit, and do AE so the two of them together will do 16 damage to every suit in a squad.

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #58 on: 11 October 2017, 17:37:42 »
Yes, Mech Mortars are one of my favourite weapons. The BV!
Though they kind of fail at a lot of things.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25772
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #59 on: 11 October 2017, 19:21:58 »
That said, no one wanting an optimized mech will ever really seriously be looking at the Crossbow, so I'm not sure why an optimized configuration is really desirable.

There's optimized, and then there's simply not head scratchingly anti-optimized.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: (Slightly early) Mech of the week - Crossbow (Omni)
« Reply #60 on: 12 October 2017, 16:05:42 »
In some ways, the APGR variant reminds me of the Hunchback 5M. The 5M only has one ton of ammo for the AC/20, but it has thirteen double heat sinks. That mech could take two engine hits, fire every weapon it has, and run, and it would only generate one point of heat. Clearly, that is too many heat sinks. While it is still a useful mech, and can certainly contribute to a fight, there is just no good reason for such massive over-kill on the heat sinks (yes, I know the fluff explanation.) The APGR Crossbow is the same way for me. It can be useful, but there is really no reason for that many APGR's, and it would be much better off with just about anything else in place of a few of them. Same with the HBK-5M and heat sinks. You could put almost anything in place of a couple of those heat sinks and it would be an improvement. It sort of crosses a line for me between 'sub-optimal' and 'there is no way anyone would ACTUALLY make this'.

 

Register