conventional Infantry AND Field Guns

[ianpelgrim]

I was looking into conventional infantry and converting them to Alpha Strike.

i have one question and one thing i found odd.
Why do mechanized platoons have  less armor compared to foot platoons of the same size and body armor? I assumed they would be better protected.

If i understand correct the damage dealt by infantry is not based on the max number but based on a intermediate number between undamaged and severely damaged.
however for field guns this rule does not apply. If you look at the card below they have 6 LAC5 resulting in 3/3 damage with AC3/3. however these 6 cannons require 30 guys
 to operate. The intermediate number for a 30 guy platoon is 18 that would allow them to operate 3 field guns and some  rifles. that would however change the dameage in 2/1
ac 2/1. Was this an oversight or can i also make a 30 guy platoon operate 2 UAC20 for 6/6 damage >:D.

[ianpelgrim]

And 1 additional question if i make some custom infantry platoons and convert them to Alpha Strike. Do i post them here or in the custom unit section?

[nckestrel]

For standard infantry attacks, you make one attack roll for hit/miss and then Roll in cluster table for how many of the individuals hit. For field guns, eachgunis itsown attack, there’s no cluster table roll.
So conversion to AS, you use the cluster table for standard infantry table,but not for field guns.
Customize units go to fan designs.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

i have one question and one thing i found odd.
Why do mechanized platoons have  less armor compared to foot platoons of the same size and body armor? I assumed they would be better protected.

I can't speak to the minds of the developers, but it makes sense to me for mechanized being easier to kill than foot platoons... it's not because they're better protected by their APCs and HMMVW analogues... it's because of them.  In TW most weapons only kill 1 trooper at a time.. but when you put a few to half dozen troopers in one vehicle, now one weapon can kill a few to a half dozen of them at once.  In truth they're only better protected vs enemy infantry small arms, and this being the game of stompy warbot action their weapons are the standard assumption rather than infantry troopers'.

Of course I do question mechanized infantry being as slow as they are, but that's a TW carryover rather than an AS design decision.

[ianpelgrim]

I understand Thank you for the answers. however i have more questions now.

if i have a thirty guy platoon and use 24 of them for fieldguns do the other 6 fire their rifles? so count as 4 rifles fired in AS?

And  how many flamers or heavy flamers does an infantry stand need  to generate 1 HT?

And are there any other weapons that can generate enough heat to get to HT? for example the Man Portable Plasma Rifle perhaps?

[nckestrel]

Infantry, in TW, take half damage while in cover. For AS conversion, it’s assumed infantry are in cover of some kind. Thus they divide their “armor” by 15 instead of 30 like every other unit. But mechanized infantry can’t take cover, so they have to divide by 30 like other units.

[ianpelgrim]

In my search on answer on the HT question i came across the unit below. i tried to copy the steps from the companion but i do not get better numbers then 1.41 for the damage which would round to 1. however if you do the math for support and normale separate you might get HT0,79/0,79 from just the plasmarifles (5 times the damage off the support weapon). AND to 0.62 normal damage on range 1 but then this unit would do. 1/0/0 damage AND HT1/1 which is still good but is awesome as the 4 damage on M this guys can put out on vehicles and other infantry.(according sarna these guys have 20 autorifles and 8 Man-Portable Plasma Rifles that can be fired by one man)

[ianpelgrim]

nckestrel and Tai Dai Cultist thank you for the answers on the armor that explains it for me.

[Hellraiser]

Infantry, in TW, take half damage while in cover. For AS conversion, it’s assumed infantry are in cover of some kind. Thus they divide their “armor” by 15 instead of 30 like every other unit. But mechanized infantry can’t take cover, so they have to divide by 30 like other units.

I think there is an error then in the stats for those Field Gun infantry.

That unit per the TRO is "Motorized" not "Mechanized"

So that would fall under the same rules for Foot/Jump platoons in regards to Armor.

At least I think that is how that works.

If it was Mechanized then it would weigh a lot more than 43 tons between the LACs, Ammo, & 30 Troopers.

Also, technically, shouldn't it be just 42.5 tons for the extra 2 guys?

That is what the TRO states, or is CARgo not done in 1/2 ton slots in the AS conversion?

[nckestrel]

Infantry only have one attack, you have to calculate it's damage values before converting to AS.  For the Heavy Urban, TR3085 has them doing 23 damage with 28 troopers. The cluster table for 23 is going to be something slightly higher than 12 (the 7 result for 20).  Divide by 10 and round up to 2.  It has a range of 6, so it will have that 2 at short and medium range.
I don't know enough about infantry to do the calculation of where the 23 damage with 28 troopers came from.  I just took it from the TR.

[Hellraiser]

Why do mechanized platoons have  less armor compared to foot platoons of the same size and body armor? I assumed they would be better protected.

Was this an oversight or can i also make a 30 guy platoon operate 2 UAC20 for 6/6 damage >:D.

Good question, I think there might be an error in the conversion, see my note about.

In regards to UAC20, Yes I think you can.
Of course, the first time it looses a single guy the damage is cut in half (for BT anyway).

I wounder how damage reducing firepower works w/ FG's in AS?

That is why I tend to favor platoons with a little cushion for initial damage.
My favorite custom platoons for pre-Helm are a standard 28 Motorized with either 3 AC5 or 1 Sniper Artillery.
Gives me 4 or 8 "soak" hits respectively to still keep shooting at full power.

[Hellraiser]

Infantry only have one attack, you have to calculate it's damage values before converting to AS.  For the Heavy Urban, TR3085 has them doing 23 damage with 28 troopers. The cluster table for 23 is going to be something slightly higher than 12 (the 7 result for 20).  Divide by 10 and round up to 2.  It has a range of 6, so it will have that 2 at short and medium range.
I don't know enough about infantry to do the calculation of where the 23 damage with 28 troopers came from.  I just took it from the TR.

I think its 14 of 28 on a 7 so 11.5 (12) damage rounded to 2S/2M

[nckestrel]

I think there is an error then in the stats for those Field Gun infantry.

That unit per the TRO is "Motorized" not "Mechanized"

So that would fall under the same rules for Foot/Jump platoons in regards to Armor.

At least I think that is how that works.

Yeah, I just looked at the one line question "Why do mechanized platoons...".  But motorized are not among those listed as divide by 30 ("movement codes of h, n, s, t, w, or v").  And movement mode for the Heavy Urban Response is motorized, not mechanized.
It has 28 people.  28/15 = 2.  So it would have 2 armor. Except it has an armor divisor of 2.   So 28/7.5 would round normal to 4. So I believe you are correct that it's wrong on the MUL card.  Not sure if it was motorized v mechanized or the damage divisor that was missed.

or is CARgo not done in 1/2 ton slots in the AS conversion?

Bingo.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, I just looked at the one line question "Why do mechanized platoons...".  But motorized are not among those listed as divide by 30 ("movement codes of h, n, s, t, w, or v").  And movement mode for the Heavy Urban Response is motorized, not mechanized.
It has 28 people.  28/15 = 2.  So it would have 2 armor. Except it has an armor divisor of 2.   So 28/7.5 would round normal to 4. So I believe you are correct that it's wrong on the MUL card.  Not sure if it was motorized v mechanized or the damage divisor that was missed.

Bingo.

FYI, the Field Guns unit has 30 men, not 28, if that makes a difference. 

[Alexander Knight]

Actually, a twin UAC/20 field gun platoon would be 5 / 5 / - for damage as the UAC/20s lack sufficient ammunition for 10 rounds of fire at ultra rate.  That reduces damage by 25% from 60 down to 45 which becomes 4.5 rounding to 5.

[ianpelgrim]

I missed that fractions rounded up i assumed 1.2 would round down. Thank you on Te UAC20. However the 2 damage and 2ht are to much the heavy urban response platoon should have The Just 2/2/0HT?

[Hellraiser]

Actually, a twin UAC/20 field gun platoon would be 5 / 5 / - for damage as the UAC/20s lack sufficient ammunition for 10 rounds of fire at ultra rate.  That reduces damage by 25% from 60 down to 45 which becomes 4.5 rounding to 5.

Doh, good catch!

[Hellraiser]

I think its 2dmg OR 2heat, not 2+2.

But maybe I'm wrong.

[Firesprocket]

Any weapon with the HT special automatically produces the effect on hit.  It isn't like other abilities such as LRM/SRM/AC munitions where you might have to make a choice to use the special.

[ianpelgrim]

Thank you for all the answers and while the jury is still out on the HT question. a thought experiment. if i take a 30 man motorized squad. 2 lbx ac10. 6plasmarifles. and laser rifles.would that give me? 1.26 ac10 damage total adding up to 2/2/2 AND FLK 2/2/2. AND the other 8 shooting with Heat causing Weapons for 5x.1.15=5.75 = HT1/1/0?

[Thunder]

Kinda need to know if you're using 5 man or 10 man squads...  Will assume 10 man squads for this.

The damage from the infantry's normal attack is .54 per trooper. X18 from the AS conversion chart is 9.72.  Divide by 10.

.972/.972
2 LBx-10's
1.26/1.26/1.26

Final damage after rounding
3/3/2
HT 2/2/2
FLK 1/1/1


Points of contention.
Infantry Heat.  Why are we allowing it to go out to longer then short range?  Can't find anything that says to do so.  At the same time can't find anything that says not to.  But you do run into the above where the HT ability would go beyond what it should be capable of.  (The HT ability is odd in that weapons that should have Medium range, are still treated as having only short range HT affects. And the conversion rules only mention the Infantry's Short range damage.)

How to calculate Field gun infantry's damage in the first place.  Because
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48907.0

According to that, Field gun damage is added on top of the infantry's normal attack.

[ianpelgrim]

the rules state the if an infantry weapon has more reach than 3 hexes it has range M the Man portable plasma rifle has range 2 so 8 hexes range(correct me if i'm wrong).

If infantry damage is not reduced by the amount of field gun crew
the field gunners in the MUL are wrong.

6 LAC is 3/3 damage AND 3/3 AC
crew is 0,58*18=10,44 divide by 10=1,04
makes
4/4 damage 3/3 AC if you take the range of the support ppc
4/3 damage 3/3 AC if you take the range of the Auto-rifle

i really don't care what the rules are just trying to clear them up.

[Thunder]

6 hex range.  Still medium range for AS.

1.044 damage would round up to 2.

Base damage rounds up.  Ability damage rounds normally.

[ianpelgrim]

Ah so 1.5 damage does that round up or down when rounding normaly?

So the squad shpuld be 5/5 ac3/3?

[Thunder]

.5's Rounds up normally.

Only exception to the basic attack damage rounds up is if you have less then .5 damage.  Then you get a Minimum Damage * instead.

5/5, AC3/3
2 armor 1 structure  4"m

If you decide to go for Infantry attack damage + field gun damage combined is the Alpha strike damage.

A conversion that would be closer to how it is in CBT would be to figure the Infantry's attack damage and the field gun damage separately.  Then at each range bracket whichever attack does the most damage, use that value.  This would represent The pick one or the other nature of CBT usage.

As for potentially needed changes in the MUL, don't worry about it.  The PV reflects what stats are written on the card.  So long as the PV is correct, irregularities in conversion don't matter much.

[nckestrel]

A conversion that would be closer to how it is in CBT would be to figure the Infantry's attack damage and the field gun damage separately.  Then at each range bracket whichever attack does the most damage, use that value.  This would represent The pick one or the other nature of CBT usage.

Looks like it's going to be field guns only when the next errata document comes out.

[ianpelgrim]

One more question is there any reason to choose wheeled infantry over tracked infantry in Alpha Strike?

[Weirdo]

Speed. Wheeled troops that don't carry lots of armor or support weapons are faster than tracked troops.

I'm not sure, but there's probably some kind of terrain type where they may be marginally better than tracks.

[pheonixstorm]

Open terrain is all I can think of. If ther terrain restrictions are the same as TW/TO anyway. But motorized over wheeled mechanized... Motor platoons can go many places mechanized can't.