Author Topic: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?  (Read 16313 times)

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25648
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« on: 31 December 2017, 05:57:35 »
So we have the near-identical wheeled, hover, and tracked heavy APCs.

Is there any logical, in-universe reason why we never got a heavy VTOL APC? It's bugging me.

Yes, there are some variants of combat VTOLs with some form of infantry bays, but the Pinto (WoB) is the only one with a 6-ton infantry bay. One faction, one period - hardly useful. Or the Falcon support vehicle, which according to the MUL is always extinct.

There are some more options at 3 ton bays, but ... a VTOL heavy APC has 8/12 move, much like its hover cousin, but offers some additional flexibility.

Ah well, one can always customise - but does anyone else a) have a good reason why we don't have one, or b) think it'd fill a niche?

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #1 on: 31 December 2017, 06:21:48 »
We got some in more recent books like the Cardinal - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cardinal  but it is odd that there's no Chinook/Sea King analogue anywhere for ages.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

AldanFerrox

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 314
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #2 on: 31 December 2017, 06:33:13 »
We have a Mi-24 Hind analogue, the Lamprey. But it has only a 4 ton bay. You could probably built a transport version that deletes the SRM's, adds two medium lasers (it has a fusion engine after all) and use the remaining tonnage to upgrade the infantry bay to 6 tons.
Only in death duty ends

lrose

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 261
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #3 on: 31 December 2017, 06:48:05 »
You're forgetting the Karnov UR and Cobra Transport.  Yes they look more like V-22s then Chinooks, but both are built using the VTOL rules and have large cargo bays. 

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #4 on: 31 December 2017, 06:49:54 »
Arguably, the Karnov.

There are even a few useful post-Helm upgrade variants.

edit: ninja'd, great minds think alike Irose

Sharpnel

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13414
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #5 on: 31 December 2017, 08:31:10 »
If you're looking for a solid introductory level VTOL APC. Just strip the Warrior of all its weapons, increase speed by one, mount two MGs and see if you can fit 6 tons of Infantry on board. I'm nowhere near my laptop or I'd post it my self. You also may want to drop weight down to 20 tons.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2017, 08:38:27 by Sharpnel »
Consigliere Trygg Bender, CRD-3BL Crusader, The Blazer Mafia
Takehiro 'Taco' Uchimiya, SHD-2H Shadow Hawk 'Taco', Crimson Oasis Trading Company

"Of what use is a dream, if not a blueprint for courageous action" -Adam West
As I get older, I realize that I'm not as good as I once was.
"Life is too short to be living someone else's dream" - Hugh Hefner

AldanFerrox

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 314
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #6 on: 31 December 2017, 08:45:58 »
If you're looking for a solid introductory level VTOL APC. Just strip the Warrior of all its weapons, increase speed by one, mount two MGs and see if you can fit 6 tons of Infantry on board. I'm nowhere near my laptop or I'd post it my self. You also may want to drop weight down to 20 tons.

It works. And if you stay at 21 tons you can even give it more armor.
Only in death duty ends

Wolf72

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3063
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #7 on: 31 December 2017, 20:33:22 »
If speed isn't a top priority go the Yellow Jacket route ... 30t, 40 rated engine (move only 6/9).  If they put a Gauss rifle on there, you can fit a 10-12 ton infantry compartment.
"We're caught in the moon's gravitational pull, what do we do?!"

CI KS #1357; Merc KS #9798

"We're sending a squad up."

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #8 on: 31 December 2017, 21:26:26 »
Mark VIIs and similar craft probably rendered dedicated VTOL APCs unnecessary.  Granted they're probably best served as nontactical transports, but tactical insertion by air of conventional infantry seems to have been accomplished via paratroopers.  Small craft or Planetlifters could also deploy Jump Platoons rather than paratroopers.  Either way, simply doesn't seem to be a lot of need for dedicated flying APCs when existing flying transports already are available.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2017, 21:32:57 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #9 on: 31 December 2017, 22:56:44 »
Until they fix the vertical take off and landing rules for Small Craft, Mark VIIs are no solution (despite how much I think they should be).

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #10 on: 31 December 2017, 23:03:14 »
Is there any logical, in-universe reason why we never got a heavy VTOL APC? It's bugging me.

There are some more options at 3 ton bays, but ... a VTOL heavy APC has 8/12 move, much like its hover cousin, but offers some additional flexibility. 

Because this baby is faster & faster = better
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Karnov
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #11 on: 01 January 2018, 00:38:51 »
Until they fix the vertical take off and landing rules for Small Craft, Mark VIIs are no solution (despite how much I think they should be).

My point was that they didn't have to land.

If you want some conventional infantry delivered into battle by air, you have them ride in an overflying aircraft and jump out the back with parachutes or jump packs.  Conventional infantry was never important enough to warrant drop, then pick up, then re-drop, then pick up again, then re-drop again... all in the same battle.  Not generally, anyway.  As for the Mark VII, if it's an airmobile rather than an air assault kind of deployment, you can have the Mark VII just land in an open field.  Don't need fancy runways; offload oodles of troops then take off again to return to garrison to pick up more troops and repeat.  As a small craft, you have what a VTOL APC will never have in the ability to deliver your troops from anywhere on the planet to anywhere else on the planet.

For recon and special forces purposes, there are a handful of specialist VTOLs in the introtech era like the Peregrine, Kestrel, and Ferret. But they're not the sort of VTOL's you'd want hopping on and off the ground in an active battle, so certainly wouldn't be considered flying APCs.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2018, 00:44:21 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Terrace

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #12 on: 01 January 2018, 00:55:02 »
It's probably best to pair VTOLs with Jump Infantry from a fluff perspective, simply because they can use their Jump Packs to disembark in mid-air. I have no idea whether the rules allow them to do this, and you'd probably have to land the VTOL to load the troops up once they're done with whatever mission they were doing. Which leaves it for the Special Forces role, dammit...

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #13 on: 01 January 2018, 05:07:56 »
Guys' your missing the question which is actually two fold:
1) Why when the original Heavy Hover, Tracked, and Wheeled APC's where designed wasn't there a Heavy VTOL APC designed as well?
2) Why hasn't this been corrected since then?

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19853
  • Cap’n-Generalissimost
    • Master Unit List
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #14 on: 01 January 2018, 07:30:04 »
Wheeled APC —> Heavy Wheeled APC
Tracked APC —> Heavy Tracked APC
Hover APC —> Heavy Hover APC
Ferret VTOL —> ???

Give us the Super Ferret we all want and deserve

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

bluedragon7

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 187
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #15 on: 01 January 2018, 07:36:33 »
Karnov?

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7187
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #16 on: 01 January 2018, 08:00:14 »
Guys' your missing the question which is actually two fold:
1) Why when the original Heavy Hover, Tracked, and Wheeled APC's where designed wasn't there a Heavy VTOL APC designed as well?
2) Why hasn't this been corrected since then?
1&2. They all had the same ugly body, a VTOL version might have been too horrific to contemplate. 
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #17 on: 01 January 2018, 08:24:19 »
I agree... The Ferret --> Karnov relationship was around long before Heavy versions of the other APCs were published.

Takiro

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1426
  • BattleTech: Salient Horizon
    • Your BattleTech
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #18 on: 01 January 2018, 09:47:59 »
Currently i am trying to make the Peregrine VTOL more useful as a spotter craft but i suppose the fragility of the helicopter it the Battletech world maked it undesirable for already fragile infantry.

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #19 on: 02 January 2018, 16:33:41 »
I like many others have used Karnovs to deploy troops very, very often. It's nice to have a transport that can clear a LZ with underwing rockets, then drop a nice group of infantry for a friendly "chat" with your enemies.

Though not a VTOL, I've also used the planetlifter to great effect.
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #20 on: 02 January 2018, 18:55:46 »
Really, a pair of Warrior H-7As, AC/5 Guships, backed up by another pair of H-7Cs, LRM-10 toters, following a pair of Karnov / Cobra carrying troops makes for a fun Combat Drop! You could even swap out the H-7Cs for a flight of MechBusters!

TT

Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #21 on: 03 January 2018, 11:55:14 »
Really, a pair of Warrior H-7As, AC/5 Guships, backed up by another pair of H-7Cs, LRM-10 toters, following a pair of Karnov / Cobra carrying troops makes for a fun Combat Drop! You could even swap out the H-7Cs for a flight of MechBusters!

TT

I love mechbusters so much! Sure, they ARE going to die whenever someone shoots anything other than a spitball at them, but AC/20 to the back is always worth it.
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

Sharpnel

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13414
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #22 on: 03 January 2018, 13:08:12 »
If you're looking for a solid introductory level VTOL APC. Just strip the Warrior of all its weapons, increase speed by one, mount two MGs and see if you can fit 6 tons of Infantry on board. I'm nowhere near my laptop or I'd post it my self. You also may want to drop weight down to 20 tons.
I've posted an APC variant of the Warrior HERE
Consigliere Trygg Bender, CRD-3BL Crusader, The Blazer Mafia
Takehiro 'Taco' Uchimiya, SHD-2H Shadow Hawk 'Taco', Crimson Oasis Trading Company

"Of what use is a dream, if not a blueprint for courageous action" -Adam West
As I get older, I realize that I'm not as good as I once was.
"Life is too short to be living someone else's dream" - Hugh Hefner

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10402
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #23 on: 03 January 2018, 15:50:15 »
Guys' your missing the question which is actually two fold:
1) Why when the original Heavy Hover, Tracked, and Wheeled APC's where designed wasn't there a Heavy VTOL APC designed as well?

Because they all use almost identical rules for generation and publication. The VTOL is a bit different.


Quote
2) Why hasn't this been corrected since then?

Clearly other stuff was deemed more important.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #24 on: 05 January 2018, 00:07:25 »
Well there is now the Crane VTOL with its eight ton infantry compartment isn't there?
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #25 on: 05 January 2018, 15:38:37 »
Crane is newer, for tried and true VTOL... there isn't any Real Vtol APCs.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #26 on: 05 January 2018, 17:41:10 »
Ferrets and Karnovs are as real as you get with a rotor on top.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #27 on: 05 January 2018, 19:21:00 »
Technically, Karnovs ARE tilt-rotor.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #28 on: 05 January 2018, 19:35:21 »
And by the rules, they can still only put two points of armor on them...

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #29 on: 05 January 2018, 21:33:09 »
Technically, Karnovs ARE tilt-rotor.

TT
What's wrong with that? Doesn't disqualify em from being utility VTOLs... just ask the US Marine Corps.


I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10161
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #30 on: 06 January 2018, 06:32:58 »
I thought the Karnovs were more of a modern version of the V22 Osprey.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2963
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #31 on: 06 January 2018, 08:44:42 »
For me a Heavy APC has an 8 ton infantry compartment . Since I liked fielding Kanazuchi Battle Armor with a speed of 1 , I had to come up with a solution . Mine was to scratch build one in a Solaris VII garage in 3058 . TROs catch up with the precieved need with s WIGE in 3075 and many in 3085 . Before a TRO provides you have to make do with scratch builds or repurposed canon like changing the 40 ton cargo compartment on a Buffolo hover Transport into an infantry bay . No one is happy with what the TRO do not provide and when they provide them . For my point of view filling an unprovided for need is the biggest reason to design your own . This has its drawbacks mostly expense . As for a VTOL transport make 100 ton trailer put infantry quarters in it from Aerospace and fly it to where you want it with a TUNBO VTOL that has 112 ton lift capacity .

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #32 on: 06 January 2018, 09:34:43 »
Look, first the Cobra VTOL, then the Karnov and Ferret, then the Tonbo and finally the Crane.

In that order, if I miss one, sorry.

What I am saying is we have a 3025 heavy APC VTOL, the Karnov or the Cobra. Original has 14 to cargo, later models has 9 or so tons to play around.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25648
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #33 on: 06 January 2018, 13:39:21 »
But they're not the minimalist "spam in a can" approach taken by the Heavy APCs.

Still, it's easy enough to come up with alternatives.

ColToda, consider the stock heavy APC, but dump all the MGs and ammo. That provides the sort of "BA truck" you're looking for on a stock chassis, with easily sourced spare parts ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #34 on: 06 January 2018, 13:47:09 »
But they're not the minimalist "spam in a can" approach taken by the Heavy APCs.
*snip*
???

3025 Karnovs have the exact same capacity (6 tons) as the Heavy APCs... the only thing they're missing are the machine guns.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #35 on: 06 January 2018, 15:38:42 »
The Gunship Karnov has 3 ton Cargo, and 2MGs w/  :o 400 rounds!  :o

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #36 on: 06 January 2018, 15:44:07 »
Guys' your missing the question which is actually two fold:
1) Why when the original Heavy Hover, Tracked, and Wheeled APC's where designed wasn't there a Heavy VTOL APC designed as well?
2) Why hasn't this been corrected since then?

G'damit. Where's my Heavy Hydrofoil APC?

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #37 on: 06 January 2018, 15:56:16 »
G'damit. Where's my Heavy Hydrofoil APC?

Sea Skimmer.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #38 on: 06 January 2018, 17:59:02 »
The Gunship Karnov has 3 ton Cargo, and 2MGs w/  :o 400 rounds!  :o

TT

I think it's actually more like six or eight MGs. It's great for dashing across the field into the middle of a field arty battery, and wiping out multiple platoons at once.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #39 on: 08 January 2018, 10:06:59 »
Since I don't see it mentioned anywhere, you should give the Shun a good look. I didn't before doing the VotW article on it a few years back, and now it's a must-have for me. A little pricey for mere 'APC' status, but much, MUCH more likely to actually reach the LZ to drop the troops off thanks to heavy (and stealth!) armor, a cavernous cargo bay, and the ability to call in artillery to help out as well.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

pheonixstorm

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5548
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #40 on: 08 January 2018, 22:48:24 »
It's probably best to pair VTOLs with Jump Infantry from a fluff perspective, simply because they can use their Jump Packs to disembark in mid-air. I have no idea whether the rules allow them to do this, and you'd probably have to land the VTOL to load the troops up once they're done with whatever mission they were doing. Which leaves it for the Special Forces role, dammit...

Yes the rules allow this. Foot and I think Motorized have to use the zip line rules. Not sure if both are Tac Ops rules or just the zip line.

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19853
  • Cap’n-Generalissimost
    • Master Unit List
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #41 on: 09 January 2018, 09:55:39 »
I think it's actually more like six or eight MGs. It's great for dashing across the field into the middle of a field arty battery, and wiping out multiple platoons at once.

eight, two per side

the 3055 upgrade variant has the twin MGs, one per side

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

Korzon77

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2441
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #42 on: 09 January 2018, 20:42:16 »
ASF's are VTOL right?  So why not a 20 ton ASF chassis with cargo space for infantry?  It'd be far more durable than your traditional V/stol.

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #43 on: 10 January 2018, 01:36:44 »
ASF's are VTOL right?  So why not a 20 ton ASF chassis with cargo space for infantry?  It'd be far more durable than your traditional V/stol.

No, I don't believe ASF are VTOL, pretty sure they require prepared strips to take off and land.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #44 on: 10 January 2018, 04:21:21 »
No, I don't believe ASF are VTOL, pretty sure they require prepared strips to take off and land.
Total Warfare. page 87:
Quote
Conventional fighters mounting VSTOL equipment may also attempt vertical landings in atmosphere, as may all aerospace fighters.

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16596
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #45 on: 10 January 2018, 08:35:02 »
I thought the Karnovs were more of a modern version of the V22 Osprey.

They're really not similar in any sense other than the artwork.  The V-22's speed has a much closer parallel to a conventional fighter or fixed-wing support vehicle with the VSTOL modification, not a VTOL like the Karnov, which is much closer to something like a real world cargo helicopter.  For a really close match to a V-22, use a fixed-wing VSTOL SV, then add the prop modification too.  (With a fusion engine, they don't fuel!)

Total Warfare. page 87:

Take a look at the modifiers on page 86 while you're considering your options for an upcoming game.  ASFs take a +2 on the landing roll for trying it.  Aerodyne small craft - like the Mark VII mentioned up thread - can't make vertical landings.  You also need to consider vertical takeoffs.  Conventional fighters with VSTOL and ASFs take a +2 penalty on those, too.

This is the flip side of the performance differences I mentioned above: VTOLs don't deal with these headaches about landing and takeoff.

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #46 on: 10 January 2018, 08:44:35 »
I admit I don't have the books handy, but I'm also not sure what the rules are on offloading cargo from a fighter. A VTOL pretty much lowers the ramp and the troops come rushing out yelling 'ooh-rah!', but if you land your modified Vandal and tell everyone to get out I'm not sure that they work the same way. (They might, for all I know, but I'm not SURE.)

I'll admit though that my mindset is that if you have such overwhelming air dominance in place that you're using fighter jets as troop transports, you probably don't need to move troops around with this kind of desperation anyway.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #47 on: 10 January 2018, 09:48:00 »
They do indeed offload the same way as other APCs once they're on the ground. Larger aeros such as Small Craft or DropShips are a bit different, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.

The risks of takeoff and landing, lawn-dart rolls, lack of cover, lack of TMMx the fact that a lot of folks don't understand aero rules and/or view them as a hassle...there's a lot of reasons why someone might prefer VTOLs over aeros for their soccer mom transport needs.

On the other hand, aeros do have advantages. It's safe to assume that your typical aero will NOT have a hit location with only two armor on it. Most troop-carrying fighters are far more heavily armed than any transport VTOL, giving your infantry contingent organic fire support. (For laughs, try keeping the fighters on the ground and using them as rolling assault guns that don't suffer vehicle motive crits.) Aeros have more offloading options than VTOLs, able to land and unload normally, drop jump troops from very low altitude using the rules in TW(think of the "Downloading" maneuver from Wolves on the Border), or drop troops from higher altitudes using the Dropping Troops rules in SO.

As for how many factions actually think this is a good idea...it should be pointed out that while uncommon, there are still multiple troop-carrying fighter configurations or variants out there, from the ubiquitous Planetlifter, Kirghiz and Troika variants, and the purpose-designed Yun, plus any others I've forgotten.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #48 on: 10 January 2018, 13:51:00 »
JH mentioned the Shun, and I have to agree that thing is a boss for carrying troops. Stealth on the way in, drop off your guys and then circle the area lighting people up with your TAG and taking accurate pot shots with those little mag shots. Ever since I saw it, I fell in love with the idea. Damn Capellans get the cool transports. :)
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #49 on: 10 January 2018, 19:36:29 »
*snip*
Take a look at the modifiers on page 86 while you're considering your options for an upcoming game.  ASFs take a +2 on the landing roll for trying it.  Aerodyne small craft - like the Mark VII mentioned up thread - can't make vertical landings.  You also need to consider vertical takeoffs.  Conventional fighters with VSTOL and ASFs take a +2 penalty on those, too.

This is the flip side of the performance differences I mentioned above: VTOLs don't deal with these headaches about landing and takeoff.
Aerodyne Small Craft can make vertical landings with the rules in StratOps (pages 72-73), but good luck surviving the experience.  I've been trying to get that fixed for years now...

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9595
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #50 on: 10 January 2018, 20:05:58 »
Someone talked up the Vector not too long ago in a VotW fan article.
« Last Edit: 10 January 2018, 20:22:53 by SteelRaven »
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Korzon77

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2441
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #51 on: 11 January 2018, 00:03:10 »
A big advantage of ASF troop carriers is strategic-- a V/tol isn't going to be going faster than mach one, let alone trans atmospheric.  It may not be an issue in a lot of pick up games, but the ability to have your infantry/battlearmor be anywhere on the planet within 45 minutes is a huge force multiplier.

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #52 on: 11 January 2018, 05:18:16 »
Total Warfare. page 87:

Heh, that so?

Ahh well, I'll just chalk it up with the other things in teh BTU that make little to no sense.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #53 on: 11 January 2018, 09:35:37 »
Aero fusion engines are powerful enough that being able to expend a mere 2 thrust points downward completely negates the pull of standard gravity. Basic maneuvering thrusters can deal with half of that with no effort. It's no surprise that a skilled pilot can pull off a vertical landing or takeoff using brute force, but it's still a dicey thing in all but ideal circumstances.

Even without the interference of enemy units, a regular ASF pilot with a perfectly intact bird needs a 9+ to land in clear terrain without damage. You don't want to fail that roll even by one, because every point of MoF means ten damage, and TW says nothing about splitting that up into smaller groups, it's all one chunk. That means even a minor mishap results in a big chunk of armor gouged out, and since most fighters can't take a hit that big without being critted, anything less than a perfect landing brings a real chance of a critical hit to a major system...such as the cargo bay full of infantry that is your current raison d'etre.

Long story short: If VTOL ASFs rub you the wrong way, don't worry. The risks involved means such landings will be even rarer than DFAs if your opponent is smart. If they aren't smart....that's usually good news too. :)
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #54 on: 11 January 2018, 09:43:35 »
Someone talked up the Vector not too long ago in a VotW fan article.

Lampreys are interesting as well. Not nearly as scary as the Hind that it borrows its looks from, but dropping a load of SRMs on someone while unloading the kitchen sink is fun. And it's a lot more available openly than the Shun, of course (which is rare outside Liao space).
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #55 on: 11 January 2018, 09:55:28 »
My favorite big VTOL transport is the Cardinal. The weapons load isn't much to scare mechs or tanks, but everything there is still effective at helping it do its job(which is good, because at only 8/12, it needs all the help it can get). The LB-X is a credible threat to enemy VTOLs and ASFs, the LRM rack can launch smoke to provide cover for your approach, and the APGRs can pin down enemy troops near the LZ. Combine that with solid armor and a truly cavernous cargo bay, and you only need a couple Cardinals to deploy a very serious infantry force.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9595
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #56 on: 11 January 2018, 13:26:19 »
You can always have your Cardinal or Lamprey escorted by a Warrior or Yellow Jacked.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #57 on: 11 January 2018, 13:52:20 »
If your Yellow Jacket is closer than two mapsheets away from the enemy, the pilot needs to be sacked for incompetence.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #58 on: 11 January 2018, 15:14:46 »
Pretty sure there's a Gauss version of the Yellow Jacket

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #59 on: 11 January 2018, 15:30:00 »
I'm aware of many non-Arrow IV versions. The only use they have is for the pilot to fly to the quartermaster depot and put a hypersonic slug through a traitor to the state. If the pilot actually takes such a Yellow Jacket to a battlefield, then the treason is a conspiracy and he is part of it.

Exceptions are allowed if the pilot was on his way to execute the quartermaster and a battle came to him. High Command is aware that war rarely goes according to plan, and sometimes Yellow Jacket happens.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Deadborder

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7883
  • Technical Victory!
    • Elmer Studios Blog
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #60 on: 11 January 2018, 16:57:40 »
The Lamprey is my go-to transport VTOL. It's the only good thing the Taurians have ever done.
Author of BattleCorps stories Grand Theft Agro and Zero Signal



How to Draw MegaMek Icons the Deadborder Way. Over 9000 so far. Determination or madness?

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #61 on: 11 January 2018, 18:11:23 »
There is the Hiryo if you are willing to accept a Wige. 8t of capacity. on an 8/12 frame that carries a snub-nosed PPC (or two light PPCs)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hiryo

There is also the peacekeeper VTOL which has BAR10 armor, is from 3021.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Peacekeeper_(VTOL)
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #62 on: 11 January 2018, 18:12:17 »
Aero fusion engines are powerful enough that being able to expend a mere 2 thrust points downward completely negates the pull of standard gravity. Basic maneuvering thrusters can deal with half of that with no effort. It's no surprise that a skilled pilot can pull off a vertical landing or takeoff using brute force, but it's still a dicey thing in all but ideal circumstances.

Even without the interference of enemy units, a regular ASF pilot with a perfectly intact bird needs a 9+ to land in clear terrain without damage. You don't want to fail that roll even by one, because every point of MoF means ten damage, and TW says nothing about splitting that up into smaller groups, it's all one chunk. That means even a minor mishap results in a big chunk of armor gouged out, and since most fighters can't take a hit that big without being critted, anything less than a perfect landing brings a real chance of a critical hit to a major system...such as the cargo bay full of infantry that is your current raison d'etre.

Long story short: If VTOL ASFs rub you the wrong way, don't worry. The risks involved means such landings will be even rarer than DFAs if your opponent is smart. If they aren't smart....that's usually good news too. :)
Which could be easily remedied by simply allowing ASFs and Aerodyne Small Craft to mount V/STOL gear like conventional fighters for the benefit of much reduced chances of destroying themselves when landing (or taking off!) vertically.  I've proposed such a solution in the past, but it hasn't seen the light of day yet...

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #63 on: 11 January 2018, 18:43:28 »
There is the Hiryo if you are willing to accept a Wige. 8t of capacity. on an 8/12 frame that carries a snub-nosed PPC (or two light PPCs)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hiryo

There is also the peacekeeper VTOL which has BAR10 armor, is from 3021.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Peacekeeper_(VTOL)

I've tested that WiGE out a few times now, and it's not let me down yet. Can drag along a full assault squad, moves pretty quick, and that snub nose is a nice way to say "Get the hell out of my LZ".
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #64 on: 11 January 2018, 19:49:18 »
Which could be easily remedied by simply allowing ASFs and Aerodyne Small Craft to mount V/STOL gear like conventional fighters for the benefit of much reduced chances of destroying themselves when landing (or taking off!) vertically.  I've proposed such a solution in the past, but it hasn't seen the light of day yet...

Maybe the rules devs see risky aero VTOL not as a bug, but a feature.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7187
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #65 on: 11 January 2018, 20:14:36 »
Maybe the rules devs see risky aero VTOL not as a bug, but a feature.
The lack of infrastructure and the amount of exploration in BT makes Aero VTOL quite a design requirement.

However I would accept risky aero VTOL, if the Aero is taking hits during landing, then it is fully understandable.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #66 on: 11 January 2018, 20:32:18 »
Maybe the rules devs see risky aero VTOL not as a bug, but a feature.
I certainly hope not!  The amount of risk they put into Aerodyne Small Craft doing this (deliberately or otherwise) is virtually insurmountable.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #67 on: 12 January 2018, 00:49:24 »
Have you considered a horizontal landing? Or dropping the troops from altitude? Both options surmount this hurdle quite nicely.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Dark Jackal

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #68 on: 12 January 2018, 01:07:52 »
Karnov's blades are too large and must land vertically. I just wish there was 10 tons of cargo space so that you could transport 1 APC rather than 6.

pheonixstorm

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5548
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #69 on: 12 January 2018, 01:25:51 »
Hot dropping jump infantry from a VTOL or aero can really wreck someones day.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #70 on: 12 January 2018, 04:21:00 »
Have you considered a horizontal landing? Or dropping the troops from altitude? Both options surmount this hurdle quite nicely.
Sure, but the Mark VII was always intended to do it vertically.  The 3057 version even put tonnage toward V/STOL gear.

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #71 on: 12 January 2018, 07:47:39 »
Have you considered a horizontal landing? Or dropping the troops from altitude? Both options surmount this hurdle quite nicely.

Pfft, runways are for civilians and chumps. VTOL or CFIT is my motto.  ;)
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #72 on: 12 January 2018, 08:35:59 »
Hot dropping jump infantry from a VTOL or aero can really wreck someones day.

Hot dropping standard infantry from a VTOL or aero can wreck the infantry's day if you don't tell them first. Fun fact.  ;D
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #73 on: 12 January 2018, 09:14:02 »
Sure, but the Mark VII was always intended to do it vertically.  The 3057 version even put tonnage toward V/STOL gear.

What about the 3057r stats, which are currently the most accurate ones?
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #74 on: 12 January 2018, 09:15:19 »
Hot dropping standard infantry from a VTOL or aero can wreck the infantry's day if you don't tell them first. Fun fact.  ;D

That's what zip lines, parachutes, and Ghurkas are for. :)
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Fidel Cashflow

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 223
    • believe
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #75 on: 12 January 2018, 09:22:35 »
That's what zip lines, parachutes, and Ghurkas are for. :)

Love that Ghurka story.
You know what rhymes with Sloth?

Cipher

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #76 on: 12 January 2018, 10:08:24 »
I don't see parachuting as a replacement for a heavy VTOL combat transport.

For one thing, the infantry once dropped has no fire support, unlike a gunship/transport hybrid which can at least provide some cover. Even APCs would be potentially ruinous if the opposition is competent, worse if they have hovercraft transports with infernos loaded...with even basic gunship available the enemy has less time to contest and needs heavier response to dislodge troops. Plus, the extra mobility means that if your infantry needs evac or is needed elsewhere, they don't have to huff it on foot or wait for ground vehicles.

The second issue is attrition. You can pretty much expect between two to ten percent in parachute jump injuries, per jump with a combat load. Concussions, ankle fractures and sprains and so on. (Based on various studies and combat drops) Training jumps have about two percent injury rate, in comparison. This is with relatively modern equipment.

Paradrops can also go really, really badly.
During Operation Just Cause (Invasion of Panama '89) Rangers, who can be assumed to be well trained, in full combat load and night took fifty percent injuries from dropping. This was landing on an airfield, so hard surface, which is supposedly worse than sand. Now to be fair, lot of those injuries would not be severe, but that means that even with one in five injuries being severe you have hundred out of your potential thousand plus if you get unlucky if we assume a battalion sized drop.

Even '91 Al Salem, Kuwait combat drop had fifteen percent injured. Again, hard surface, night drop.

Basically: combat loads, night drops, high winds, hot temperatures, concrete and substantial humidity are bad for parachutists. So for planets with high wind, high humidity and high heat, parachutes at least aren't ideal.

No idea on what the injury rate on a jump infantry drop is though.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2018, 10:38:08 by Cipher »

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #77 on: 12 January 2018, 15:38:21 »
Karnov's blades are too large and must land vertically. I just wish there was 10 tons of cargo space so that you could transport 1 APC rather than 6.

Then the Cobra VTOL Original is your friend! 14 tons of space...

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #78 on: 12 January 2018, 16:12:45 »
What about the 3057r stats, which are currently the most accurate ones?
I don't have 3057r, but I'm willing to to bet they rely on the StratOps rules for vertical landing, virtually guaranteeing self-destruction.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #79 on: 12 January 2018, 16:22:46 »
So the most current stats are meant to go with the most current rules, it sounds like.

If you want to use older stats, what's wrong with using the older rules they're meant to go with? I know my copy of AT2r didn't spontaneously combust when SO was published, did anybody else's? ???
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #80 on: 12 January 2018, 17:30:39 »
Is it so bad to advocate for consistency in the current rule set?  I sent a quite detailed proposal to the writer who asked me for it, and I'm (not so) patiently waiting to see if it pans out.

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #81 on: 14 January 2018, 06:15:39 »
Is it so bad to advocate for consistency in the current rule set?  I sent a quite detailed proposal to the writer who asked me for it, and I'm (not so) patiently waiting to see if it pans out.

How is it inconsistent?

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #82 on: 14 January 2018, 07:56:31 »
The StratOps rule (pages 72-73) presents something that should be possible for an Aerodyne Small Craft to do (i.e., land/take off vertically in atmosphere), but as presented, the rule virtually guarantees destruction of the craft (that automatic damage table is in Capital Scale).  Further, Aerospace Fighters and Aerodyne Small Craft are explicitly forbidden (Tech Manual, page 190) from mounting V/STOL gear because "they already have that capability" (which stems from their ability to land/take off vertically in vacuum).

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #83 on: 15 January 2018, 02:12:24 »
The StratOps rule (pages 72-73) presents something that should be possible for an Aerodyne Small Craft to do (i.e., land/take off vertically in atmosphere), but as presented, the rule virtually guarantees destruction of the craft (that automatic damage table is in Capital Scale).  Further, Aerospace Fighters and Aerodyne Small Craft are explicitly forbidden (Tech Manual, page 190) from mounting V/STOL gear because "they already have that capability" (which stems from their ability to land/take off vertically in vacuum).

Should means only that there is a chance that they can do it, not that they can do it with no risk. Nothing wrong with making a high roll requirement. Look at it this was, you should be able to hit with a weapon at long range, even with a to hit number of 9 or 10, that doesn't mean you are likely to. Makes it an act of necessity, not choice.

It's also not unusual in the BTU to have arbitrary rulings to limit or prevent options, look at CVs mounting DHS or XL engines. The reason these are rules is because it's something that the Devs don't want in the game, so they become outright impossible or extremely unlikely. Consistency is maintained throughout.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #84 on: 15 January 2018, 05:30:02 »
The inconsistent thing is that unless you can roll well in excess of 13 on 2d6, the craft is taking multiple Capital Scale damage points.

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #85 on: 15 January 2018, 07:26:33 »
The inconsistent thing is that unless you can roll well in excess of 13 on 2d6, the craft is taking multiple Capital Scale damage points.

From what Weirdo wrote up thread, it requires a 9+ in a normal environment...

I have to admit, I've only bought TW and Techman, never bought the others as I ran out of motivation to keep playing. So I can't perform my own due diligence on it, but others are telling me it's possible, but unlikely, you're telling me it's flat out impossible, which is it? Are you using all the modifiers to come to 13+?

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #86 on: 15 January 2018, 08:36:06 »
Ah, you haven't read the StratOps rules I'm talking about.

The key part of them is this paragraph:
Quote
The unit suffers automatic damage based on its tonnage (see Size Class Damage Table, above). Modify this damage by the MoS or MoF of the Control Roll and then apply any Atmospheric Conditions modifiers to the final damage.  Damage is split evenly between the Nose and Aft armor.  If damage exceeds the damage threshold for that arc, roll for a critical hit as normal.

The other thing to know is the "automatic damage" in the table for units under 500 tons is 6+1d6 Capital Scale, PLUS another 1d6 for attempting a landing.  So that's 6+2d6 Capital Scale damage to start.  You get to subtract 6 for every MoS (and add 1d6 for  every MoF), but Small Craft specifically get a +2 target number, and that's on top of all the usual modifiers Spheroids have to contend with.  Any roll you'd actually make in a game would require somewhere north of 13 to get away unscathed.  For something units already "have the capability to do" (back to that Tech Manual reference that forbids installing V/STOL gear).  Beyond that, an Aerodyne unit lifting off with its landing gear deployed automatically destroys it, period.  That in particular isn't a feature of a capability a unit "has".

Hopefully that makes more sense now.

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #87 on: 15 January 2018, 08:42:16 »
So the most current stats are meant to go with the most current rules, it sounds like.

If you want to use older stats, what's wrong with using the older rules they're meant to go with? I know my copy of AT2r didn't spontaneously combust when SO was published, did anybody else's? ???

No, but when I bought Total Warfare my old Compendium started leaking blood and moaning. I asked about it and was told it's not a problem, it's a feature.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10161
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #88 on: 15 January 2018, 09:17:07 »
Can only do so much with standard rules and 30 tons. I did make a 40 ton helo APC on the lines of a Mi-24 hind.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #89 on: 15 January 2018, 10:19:07 »
I have a question then, how does this rule fit in then?

Quote
Strategic Ops Page 73

Spheroid and aerodyne units can land vertically with the
following conditions and modifers (effectively the unit hovers
over the water and then cuts its drive when two elevations up,
dropping the remaining distance to avoid plasma backwash):


It doesn't mention Aerospace fighters, just the two types of small craft and dropships.
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #90 on: 15 January 2018, 10:26:35 »
Good question!  I fear the thread drift is becoming acute, though... perhaps we should start a separate thread for this? :)

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #91 on: 15 January 2018, 11:38:06 »
Very good idea, as the discussion of surface-to-orbit shuttles and their landing modes has very little to do with helicopter troop transports.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7187
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #92 on: 15 January 2018, 11:58:59 »
From what Weirdo wrote up thread, it requires a 9+ in a normal environment...
In universe it is very strange, because why add a feature if it is going to fail most of the time? And fail horribly at that.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10402
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #93 on: 15 January 2018, 12:07:42 »
In universe it is very strange, because why add a feature if it is going to fail most of the time? And fail horribly at that.

Like DFAs?
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4828
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #94 on: 15 January 2018, 14:29:32 »
Like DFAs?
technically only 1 mech was ever designed to do dfa's and depending on how you read the fluff (not gameplay rules) a person could argue that it shouldn't take damage from the an actual successful DFA all of the other mechs were using "improvised tactics"

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #95 on: 15 January 2018, 14:30:38 »
In universe it is very strange, because why add a feature if it is going to fail most of the time? And fail horribly at that.

Because so much of Battletech is about risk vs reward. There's lots of things you can do that are risky, but useful if you can pull it off.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7187
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #96 on: 15 January 2018, 14:35:56 »
Because so much of Battletech is about risk vs reward. There's lots of things you can do that are risky, but useful if you can pull it off.
In universe it is not balanced to be designed for it.

Now a proper risk vs reward balance would be if such a roll is only needed if hit just before landing. So land safely away from combat or rake a risk to land troops directly at the objective.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #97 on: 15 January 2018, 14:39:23 »
Because so much of Battletech is about risk vs reward. There's lots of things you can do that are risky, but useful if you can pull it off.

*slowly raises hand*

Have we met?  [blank]
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #98 on: 16 January 2018, 01:49:21 »
Ah, you haven't read the StratOps rules I'm talking about.

The key part of them is this paragraph:
The other thing to know is the "automatic damage" in the table for units under 500 tons is 6+1d6 Capital Scale, PLUS another 1d6 for attempting a landing.  So that's 6+2d6 Capital Scale damage to start.  You get to subtract 6 for every MoS (and add 1d6 for  every MoF), but Small Craft specifically get a +2 target number, and that's on top of all the usual modifiers Spheroids have to contend with.  Any roll you'd actually make in a game would require somewhere north of 13 to get away unscathed.  For something units already "have the capability to do" (back to that Tech Manual reference that forbids installing V/STOL gear).  Beyond that, an Aerodyne unit lifting off with its landing gear deployed automatically destroys it, period.  That in particular isn't a feature of a capability a unit "has".

Hopefully that makes more sense now.

That does indeed make sense. So, the unit will always take damage, and that damage is applied no matter what, just a variable amount. I see. I agree that the rules would definitely need clarification and would suggest that they are applying rules for dropships to small craft.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #99 on: 16 January 2018, 04:40:50 »
Thank you!  I always appreciate affirmations of my sanity...  :D

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #100 on: 16 January 2018, 04:49:04 »
Thank you!  I always appreciate affirmations of my sanity...  :D

Lol, so long as you doubt it occasionally, you are definitely sane. After all, crazy people never doubt their sanity.  >:D

My interpretation of the issue, after a little thought, is that CGL don't want VTOL small craft to be in the game, however they are willing to let a good pilot attempt the vertical landing part in the event of necessity. Sort of like the US army "amphibious" (once) ships from WWII, where they drove an old cargo carrier up to the beech and offloaded. That ship would never leave the beech, thanks to structural issues far greater than just having the power to drag itself off.

I'd say the rules need to either be clarified to cover this, or changed to permit VTOL.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #101 on: 16 January 2018, 09:03:50 »
I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll just quote this
Very good idea, as the discussion of surface-to-orbit shuttles and their landing modes has very little to do with helicopter troop transports.
and remind folks that ignoring moderator directives almost always results in Warnings being issued.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #102 on: 16 January 2018, 09:31:47 »
What I'd like to see someday is a heavy APC-style WiGE. Which we have SOME examples of WiGEs that can carry troops on board (Hiryo), it doesn't carry a large load. And while there's larger examples like the Ryu, a support WiGE is a little concerning to run too close to a combat zone- if the idea is to drop battle armor off into a combat situation, it needs to be pretty much into the fray, otherwise what's the point? A Ryu is a bit vulnerable for the job.

So what I'd like to see is a 'normal' sized WiGE that basically does the Shun's job- a 12-ton infantry bay, only the most simple of defensive weapons, able to dash in and drop off its troops and get the hell out of there immediately without bells and whistles. The ability to take a few hits is nice, but since a WiGE (like most vehicles) die from motive hits rather than being cored out it doesn't have to be anything wild and crazy.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #103 on: 16 January 2018, 10:00:27 »
Didn't the Lyrans get one with a twelve-ton bay or somesuch? It's the one with a Heavy Gauss of some flavor, so after it lands and unloads the troops, it makes a good rolling assault gun.

Admittedly it's not exactly what you seek, since it's less of a drop-and-dash and more of a self-deploying bunker, but still...
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21743
  • Third time this week!
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #104 on: 16 January 2018, 10:48:46 »
Didn't the Lyrans get one with a twelve-ton bay or somesuch? It's the one with a Heavy Gauss of some flavor, so after it lands and unloads the troops, it makes a good rolling assault gun.

Admittedly it's not exactly what you seek, since it's less of a drop-and-dash and more of a self-deploying bunker, but still...

Fensalir? It has a variant that loses the MML racks to gain an enormous infantry bay, yeah. But it has an enormous drawback. Remember that a WiGE has to maintain five hexes' movement at all times to remain airborne (and that's five actual hexes moved, not 5 MP used!). Which is fine, but the Fensalir isn't particularly fast (5/8)- so a motive hit that would be annoying to most units (even other, faster WiGEs) is utterly crippling to this thing.

Drop the HGR for higher speed or the armored motive system a different version carries, and you're coming more towards what I'm thinking of. As it is, despite its firepower the Fensalir suffers mightily due to that speed problem, and I'd have to personally avoid it in the kind of role I'm looking for here.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37359
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #105 on: 16 January 2018, 19:55:16 »
I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll just quote thisand remind folks that ignoring moderator directives almost always results in Warnings being issued.
Perhaps the mods could split the offending posts off for us into a separate thread? Please? :)

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #106 on: 16 January 2018, 23:53:59 »
I know that in AS a unit can disgorge as many Infantry as it may have onboard, but is that also true in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech?  I think I remember that you can only load/offload 1 platoon per turn?  If that's true, it seems to me that being able to carry 3 platoons/BA squads is an advantage over 2 that is beyond the point of diminishing returns...

anastrace

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #107 on: 17 January 2018, 06:59:12 »
I know that in AS a unit can disgorge as many Infantry as it may have onboard, but is that also true in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech?  I think I remember that you can only load/offload 1 platoon per turn?  If that's true, it seems to me that being able to carry 3 platoons/BA squads is an advantage over 2 that is beyond the point of diminishing returns...

Maybe that's one of the reasons we haven't seen many, beyond things like the Shun. That one at least has stealth armor so it provides some defensive measures when she's grounded or hovering and dropping their payload. I could see an argument for a massive VTOL capacity for transports that are designed to drop multiple squads of heavy or assault armor.

What is funny to think is that a Shun can carry up to 96 people in it's hold. I just keep imagining that many people crammed into a VTOL like a phonebooth.
Missiles, how do they work? (Seriously, guided bottle rockets?)

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10402
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #108 on: 17 January 2018, 08:23:28 »
Perhaps the mods could split the offending posts off for us into a separate thread? Please? :)

Or we could give the unpaid moderators a break and just start a new thread on our own.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #109 on: 17 January 2018, 09:50:35 »
(For laughs, try keeping the fighters on the ground and using them as rolling assault guns that don't suffer vehicle motive crits.)

 }:)
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #110 on: 17 January 2018, 10:12:22 »
I know that in AS a unit can disgorge as many Infantry as it may have onboard, but is that also true in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech?  I think I remember that you can only load/offload 1 platoon per turn?  If that's true, it seems to me that being able to carry 3 platoons/BA squads is an advantage over 2 that is beyond the point of diminishing returns...

This is correct. There are numerous exceptions for things like support vees, very large combat units, big aeros, and so forth, but for regular old combat vehicles in most circumstances, it's one infantry platoon(or BA squad) per turn, even if stacking limits would allow for more. For combat vees with large bays, my advice is to either find some hard cover to do your unloading behind, or plan your strategy to involve spread out troops. That way you can move to one spot, unload, move to the next spot, unload, all while keeping your TMM up. If your force has multiple such transports and a sizable infantry force, you can use interweaving movement paths and deploy multiple concentrations of troops across a broad front in very short order.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll