Author Topic: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section  (Read 11185 times)

Daryk

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #30 on: 24 November 2015, 19:50:02 »
*snip*
In general, people spend as much time asleep as working at full capacity during each day with the remained spent maintaining their own bodies and sanities.
That's not been my experience in a war zone, nor what I observed other people doing in a war zone.

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #31 on: 24 November 2015, 23:07:48 »
Point is no sleep at all isn't an option, unlike what that proposed calculation appears to assume.

FedComGirl

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #32 on: 24 November 2015, 23:20:34 »
Which is exactly what I was arguing against the below statement:

That formula will, as I read it, at best lead to a third of the time needed to advance to the desired experience level (as most people work 8 hours out of every 24), assuming a scenario occurs every day.

You're arguing against this, correct?

Quote
8 hours per maintenance/repair cycle + one m/r per scenario + the number of scenarios needed to advance a level.

Let's break it down a bit.

Without knowing which rule to look at, I'm guessing the first 8 hours on top of the one per scenario. How often does that maintenance/repair cycle take place? Everyday? Once a month? Once a year?

The 8 hours in between scenarios isn't a sure thing. It's only 8 if the players can't agree. It could be more or less. If it's less the techs would need more scenarios to make up the time right?

How many scenarios does it take to advance a level? Is that also dependent upon having enough hours on the job? For example do you need a minimum of 5 scenarios and 60 hours, would you still go up a level if you had 10 scenarios but only 50 hours?


Also you're presuming that people are working a currant day 56 hour work week. I don't think that's the case. I don't remember where it is but I do remember reading about workers rioting over not getting a 4 day work week. So how long is the average work week? That's really going to determine how quickly one advances in level.


Point is no sleep at all isn't an option, unlike what that proposed calculation appears to assume.

Where's it say that? I'm not seeing it at all.

theagent

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #33 on: 25 November 2015, 08:24:29 »
I gave specific quotes in the followup here http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=49502.msg1144989#msg1144989 .  To convince me that the StratOps rules say otherwise, you'll need to be similarly specific.   (Yes, I understand that there is some contradictory Q&A now http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=49502.msg1145341#msg1145341)

W.r.t. time to train you just need to connect the dots: 8 hours per maintenance/repair cycle + one m/r per scenario + the number of scenarios needed to advance a level.

StratOps (2nd printing), p. 187.  No mention is made of hours. It's strictly stated that the scenario count is what matters. The only time factor is the time in between scenarios.  So take two teams, A and B, both starting at Green.  Both need 5 scenarios to reach Regular.  Team A is attached to a unit that does quickie raids (one per month or less), & the team is kept safe back at the DropShip during actual combat. The soonest they can reasonably expect to level up is after 5 raids, so maybe by the 5th month they'll level up.

Team B, OTOH, is involved in a running campaign, like you see in some of the official sourcebooks, where the unit has a day or two in between scenarios (if they're lucky).  Within a week or two of in-game time, they could easily reach the 5 scenario count they need to level up... assuming they aren't killed off (requiring a brand-new team) or replace their team casualties (which restarts the scenario count).

Just as stated in the examples in the book, it's the scenarios they survive without replacing casualties that tracks their skill improvement, not how many hours they spend working on the job.

The only issue that needs determined is if 2 or more linked scenarios count as separate scenarios every time, or if the team needs time to attempt repairs between scenarios for them to be considered 'separate'. I lean towards the latter, but also feel it's up to the GM & players in each gaming group.

Daryk

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #34 on: 25 November 2015, 16:51:49 »
Point is no sleep at all isn't an option, unlike what that proposed calculation appears to assume.
It's a side point, but no sleep is absolutely an option.  It's why amphetamines were invented.  I can't imagine a mercenary unit being less willing to issue them than a government.

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #35 on: 25 November 2015, 18:07:34 »
Without knowing which rule to look at, I'm guessing the first 8 hours on top of the one per scenario. How often does that maintenance/repair cycle take place? Everyday? Once a month? Once a year?

The 8 hours in between scenarios isn't a sure thing. It's only 8 if the players can't agree. It could be more or less. If it's less the techs would need more scenarios to make up the time right?

How many scenarios does it take to advance a level? Is that also dependent upon having enough hours on the job? For example do you need a minimum of 5 scenarios and 60 hours, would you still go up a level if you had 10 scenarios but only 50 hours?


Also you're presuming that people are working a currant day 56 hour work week. I don't think that's the case. I don't remember where it is but I do remember reading about workers rioting over not getting a 4 day work week. So how long is the average work week? That's really going to determine how quickly one advances in level.


Where's it say that? I'm not seeing it at all.

I am presuming that a game meant to simulate the actions of human beings considers the biological needs of human beings. If the rule says 8 hours are available per scenario for repairs and maintenance, and doesn't limit this for extended periods of time, I will assume that the people involved will require extra time to sleep eat and poop on top of those 8 hours.
8 hours are available for work to be done in
is not the same as
only 8 hours pass.

It's a side point, but no sleep is absolutely an option.  It's why amphetamines were invented.  I can't imagine a mercenary unit being less willing to issue them than a government.
Not for prolonged periods, which is what these calculations are suggesting.

And I would absolutely expect a government to be more willing to overwork and drug their employees than a MechWarrior who has to ride a warmachine filled with explosive ordnance handled by the drugged and overworked techs into battle.
BT already plays fast and loose with ordnance safety by not requiring that mechs dump or at least unload all their unspent ammo before greasemonkeys with blowtorches descend upon it to fix up the armour.

Daryk

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #36 on: 25 November 2015, 18:58:07 »
*snip*
Not for prolonged periods, which is what these calculations are suggesting.

And I would absolutely expect a government to be more willing to overwork and drug their employees than a MechWarrior who has to ride a warmachine filled with explosive ordnance handled by the drugged and overworked techs into battle.
BT already plays fast and loose with ordnance safety by not requiring that mechs dump or at least unload all their unspent ammo before greasemonkeys with blowtorches descend upon it to fix up the armour.
That's actually the point... the rules play fast and loose with non-combat activities.  The "eight hours of repairs if the players don't agree" thing is exactly that.  In a more real world, the next scenario happens whenever one of the two combatants calls repairs good enough and moves to hit the other while they're still in the repair bay.

And as far as drugging the techs, this is a universe that has factions with actual slave labor performing complex technical work.  I'm not saying everybody does it, but it certainly happens.

FedComGirl

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #37 on: 25 November 2015, 22:52:32 »
I am presuming that a game meant to simulate the actions of human beings considers the biological needs of human beings. If the rule says 8 hours are available per scenario for repairs and maintenance, and doesn't limit this for extended periods of time, I will assume that the people involved will require extra time to sleep eat and poop on top of those 8 hours.
8 hours are available for work to be done in
is not the same as
only 8 hours pass.
Not for prolonged periods, which is what these calculations are suggesting.

If you go by the 8 hours that's how much time the techs have to get as much done as possible. If you go by player agreement the techs may have more or less time to work. Maybe they'll have to put in overtime. Or maybe they'll call it a night and finish the next day. It all depends on how much time between scenarios the players agree to. Either way, when the time is up the troops move out and the techs are on their own. What the techs do then is up to the player. The rules don't care.

Personally, I'd have those on duty the longest hit the bunks while the rest resupply the bays and get ready for the troops to come back. Or to rush out and grab salvage or do emergency repairs. All that is after the next scenario starts though and beyond the scope of the 8 hour rule.

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #38 on: 26 November 2015, 02:46:21 »
You keep reiterating my point by phrasing it as a rebuttal  :o

When the rules say '8 hours are available for repairs', and the players don't decide to change that, some amount of time greater than 8 hours will pass.

Therefore the equation that the time to veteran = 8 hours times number of scenarios required is incomplete and will not result in accurate numbers.

No matter how many drugs, no one goes for that amount of time without rest.

And if you're running three shift rotations for constant repair work without fatigue, you're really running three crews tracking their experience separately.

My singular point is: it takes longer to go up a level than just the work hours required because you'll not be working 24/7 forever.

Daryk

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #39 on: 26 November 2015, 07:11:45 »
That's a fair point, but one that will only likely come into to play if you're not using the abstraction being abused here.  The rule as written can be (and apparently is) cheerfully abused by more than one person exactly as outlined here.  Should it be?  I don't think so, but I prefer to use AToW, and see this "advance your techs (and troops, for that matter) by the number of scenarios you play" business as pure madness.

Lagrange

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #40 on: 26 November 2015, 09:17:37 »
My singular point is: it takes longer to go up a level than just the work hours required because you'll not be working 24/7 forever.

I agree with this.  It's why the calculation used 8 hours/day with 5 days/week.  There are rules for working overtime, but they involve a terrible penalty.

No mention is made of hours.

Hours per scenario is discussed on page 166.  The relevant quote is second from bottom here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=49502.msg1144989#msg1144989

FedComGirl

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Re: Things I learned from the Repair/Maintenance/Salvage section
« Reply #41 on: 26 November 2015, 13:42:40 »
You keep reiterating my point by phrasing it as a rebuttal  :o

When the rules say '8 hours are available for repairs', and the players don't decide to change that, some amount of time greater than 8 hours will pass.

Therefore the equation that the time to veteran = 8 hours times number of scenarios required is incomplete and will not result in accurate numbers.

No matter how many drugs, no one goes for that amount of time without rest.

And if you're running three shift rotations for constant repair work without fatigue, you're really running three crews tracking their experience separately.

My singular point is: it takes longer to go up a level than just the work hours required because you'll not be working 24/7 forever.

Or less time.

How is it incomplete?

Most people can go more than 8 hours without rest.

Of course.

Why? If it's working hours that determine your going up a level why are you including off work hours?