Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 32670 times)

Weirdo

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #30 on: 17 August 2015, 11:35:23 »
The Basilisk Quad-B has an AS card with a 1/1/0 damage rating. Given that BQ-B is unarmed save for the melee weapon(WoR Supp, pg 43), shouldn't the damage be 0/0/0?
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #31 on: 17 August 2015, 11:58:56 »
Wulfen [E]

Current Damage for Alpha Strike 3/3/0*. 

Suggested Change: I believe the damage band should be 4/3/0*, which retroactively increases the PV by 1 (from 26 → 27)

Weapons
. 2@ATM3 (10 shots each) for 4 subtotal Heat
. . Damage Bands = 1.2/0.8/0.4
. 2@ERMedium Laser for 10 subtotal Heat
. . Damage Bands = 1.4/1.4/0
. . . Targeting Computer modifier x1.1
. . . . adjusted Damage Bands = 1.54/1.54/0
. MicroPulse Laser for 1 subtotal Heat
. . Damage Band = 0.33/0/0
. . . Targeting Computer modifier x1.1
. . . . adjusted Damage Bands = 0.363/0/0

. Base Damage = 3.103 / 2.34 / 0.4
. . or "4 / 3 / 0*"
15 Total Heat for Weapons

(Not enough heat to modify the damage down, but for clarity...)
(. 22 total dissipation {11 double heatsinks})
(. 15 weapon heat)
(. 10 stealth heat)
(. 2 engine heat)  correction: 4 engine heat (2 x 2; thank you Moonsword)
(. . 27 total heat 29 heat )
(. . . Short Range [4*22] / [27-4] [29-4)
(. . . . ~3.82608 ~3.52 )

Edit: corrections for heat
« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 15:49:24 by GoldBishop »

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #32 on: 17 August 2015, 13:20:45 »
3.103 damage at short range, * 22 heat sink dissipation, /23 (27 heat build up -4) = 3.0.  That is enough to drop the 4 to a 3.
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Xotl

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #33 on: 17 August 2015, 14:23:31 »
The text is actually rather vague for calculating Heat-modified damage: the main problem is that it says to modify the "base damage values", (ASC p. 115) but there's no definition as to what that is.  On p. 99, where you first calculate your damage values, it says "At the most basic level" you round when calculating damage (ASC p. 99), and then, right after that, it says "the damage values determined here" are used if you have to modify for heat.

I can easily see why some would round up to the nearest whole number before applying heat, rather than after.  I'll see about adding clarifying notes to p. 99 and p. 115 (and I have to update my conversion spreadsheet, since I made the same mistake).
« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 15:30:12 by Xotl »
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #34 on: 17 August 2015, 14:54:12 »
There's two different points at which you round.
as part of heat modification (p115) = round up to nearest tenth.
final value (p99) = round to whole number.  (Up for standard damage values, normal for special abilities).

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Xotl

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #35 on: 17 August 2015, 15:06:41 »
I've clarified my post, but it's more a question of the text being unclear as to when you make that first rounding at all, rather than a question of in what way you round.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #36 on: 17 August 2015, 15:14:13 »
Ah, gotcha.  Yes, the rounded to whole number values should not then be heat-modified.  Heat-modification comes first.
It should also clarify the rounding to tenth in heat-modification happens even if the unit is otherwise not heat modified.

1. Total up all damage values.
2. Heat Modify as necessary for heat modified damage values.
3. Round damage values up to nearest one-tenth (even if not heat modified)
4. Round (up for standard, normal for special abilities) to nearest whole number for final damage values.

Step 3 is necessary even if damage values do not qualify to be heat modified because otherwise it's possible for heat to actually raise a damage value.  That would be silly :).
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #37 on: 17 August 2015, 15:25:47 »
Hmmm

I don't mean to argue with the process here, but I'd like point out that "OV" values have always been whole numbers.  The reason I think the way I converted is correct is because there isn't enough "heat reduction" to warrant an OV value.

In this example...
. Heat Multiplier = 22/23 ~ 0.9565217... lets just go with "0.957"  22/25 ~ 0.88
. Short Range Base Damage [SBD] (not-rounded) = 3.103
. . SBD x Heat Multiplier = 2.97   2.73064 ~ 2.731
. . 3.103 - 2.97 = ~0.133 3.103 - 2.731 = 0.372

I didn't think 0.133 0.372 was enough to grant "OV1"... nor reduce the damage below its original value (3.103 ~ 4)

And I'm not trying to be snarky, just speculative.
« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 15:52:32 by GoldBishop »

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Moonsword

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #38 on: 17 August 2015, 15:29:46 »
Is that heat total supposed to use movement heat?  If so, maybe it should be 6 on the Wulfen, not 2 - it has an XXL engine.

I'm not able to look at my books right now so take that with a grain of salt.

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #39 on: 17 August 2015, 15:34:46 »
Is that heat total supposed to use movement heat?  If so, maybe it should be 6 on the Wulfen, not 2 - it has an XXL engine.

I'm not able to look at my books right now so take that with a grain of salt.

oh crap, I missed that.  Sorry all :(
<recalculating...>


EDIT:  +2 heat didn't really change where I rounded (double engine heat for the conversion, page 115.  I will edit my previous posts.  Thank you MoonSword
« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 15:45:43 by GoldBishop »

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Alexander Knight

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #40 on: 17 August 2015, 15:48:59 »

I didn't think 0.133 was enough to grant "OV1"... nor reduce the damage below its original value (3.103 ~ 4)


And yet, that 0.133 is more than the .103 that would have given a 4 in the first place.  If anything, it shouldn't have overheat OR a 4 damage value by this logic.  :)

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #41 on: 17 August 2015, 15:54:20 »
And yet, that 0.133 is more than the .103 that would have given a 4 in the first place.  If anything, it shouldn't have overheat OR a 4 damage value by this logic.  :)

yeah.  I'm giving myself a headache over this one.  I'm sorry I'm not being very helpful guys :(

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Xotl

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #42 on: 17 August 2015, 15:59:50 »
yeah.  I'm giving myself a headache over this one.  I'm sorry I'm not being very helpful guys :(

Don't worry about it: you made me realize I had made a mistake, and ensured the wording would be clearer in the future.
Away until late August.  Cheers.

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #43 on: 17 August 2015, 16:20:55 »
Short damage has nothing to do with calculating OV.  OV is calculated based on whether or not Medium damage changes due to heat modification.  It doesn't matter if Short does or doesn't change.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #44 on: 17 August 2015, 16:23:16 »
Short damage has nothing to do with calculating OV.  OV is calculated based on whether or not Medium damage changes due to heat modification.  It doesn't matter if Short does or doesn't change.

Yup.  I was going off the presumption that "OV 0" meant "full Short Range damage" which was (previously) 3.103... thus my initial post about the Wulfen.

I can see that I was wrong now (in my calculations).  Please disregard my request to update the unit.

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #45 on: 17 August 2015, 16:35:04 »
Will do, and don't worry about asking questions.  I only know what I know because people (Alexander Knight and others) kept pointing out my mistakes.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #46 on: 17 August 2015, 16:39:05 »
And as for me....waayyy too much time staring at the numbers and various conversions.  #P

Louie N

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #47 on: 17 August 2015, 17:22:44 »


This is what I get for the Wulfen E.

The long range is a 0* because it is only .4 damage. The OV is zero as it is based ONLY on the medium range calculation.

So I have 3/3/0*


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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #48 on: 17 August 2015, 18:09:22 »
The Basilisk Quad-B has an AS card with a 1/1/0 damage rating. Given that BQ-B is unarmed save for the melee weapon(WoR Supp, pg 43), shouldn't the damage be 0/0/0?
Yep. Fixed. Should update within the next 24 hours.

Louie N

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #49 on: 17 August 2015, 19:58:56 »
Please review the Wulfen D and E based on the latest errata for XXL engine movement heat.

The D model I calculate a .53 damage at medium range. This would allow it to have 1 damage. 

The model E alters from my post above to a 3/2/0* with a 1 OV.

Point cost may alter to 25.

All other models were unchanged by the new heat.

Thanks

Any other XXL mechs to check?

« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 22:42:07 by Louie N »

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #50 on: 17 August 2015, 20:18:02 »
The errata is the way the MUL team had been doing XXL engines. 
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Xotl

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #51 on: 17 August 2015, 20:25:19 »
Still, I think he's right on both counts.  It looks like the Wulfen D would be 0*/1/0*, and the Wulfen E 3/2/0* with OV1.

Granted I'm still double-checking to make sure my sheet is right after the changes, but I'm getting the same numbers he is.
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Pa Weasley

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #52 on: 17 August 2015, 21:23:40 »
I'm matching those values as well. I'm getting point values for the D and E as 20 and 26 respectively.

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #53 on: 17 August 2015, 21:35:46 »
[Pre-Errata] The XXL engine only counted for double Movement Heat, not +6 (as Walking MP in Standard BT)

On the Wulfen E, Movement Heat would be 4 (Engine +2, x2)

At Medium Range, the MicroPulse laser doesn't count (max range = short) which is why I calculated at Short Range to start with (mistakenly not Calculating Medium Range default)

. Medium Range Damage = 2.34
. Total Heat @Medium Range = 28
. Heat Dissipation = 22
. . Damage Multiplier = 22/(28-4) = 0.91666 ~ 0.9
. . . 2.34 * 0.9 = 2.106

2.1 rounds up to 3 @ Medium Range, OV 0.

[Post errata]
...22/(30-4) = 0.856 ~ 0.9... rounds the same? 0.846 ~ 0.8 (rounds down).  Finger slipped... thanks for the correction, Louie
« Last Edit: 18 August 2015, 10:41:06 by GoldBishop »

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Louie N

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #54 on: 17 August 2015, 23:00:02 »
For the Wulfen E it is...

22/26 = .846 X 2.34 = 1.98

Thanks

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #55 on: 18 August 2015, 10:42:26 »
Sooo... it looks like Wulfen "E" should have Damage Bands: 3/2/0*, OV1 ?

Retroactively changes the PV from 26 to 25?
« Last Edit: 18 August 2015, 10:44:10 by GoldBishop »

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #56 on: 18 August 2015, 10:53:46 »
Note the micro pulse laser still counts for heat at medium range.  So it's 31 heat (-4).  But yeah, that just makes the medium range damage even lower.  So PV 25, 3/2/0*, OV1, changes coming up.
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Louie N

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #57 on: 18 August 2015, 11:19:23 »
First thanks to the MUL team as always, the above stats are correct

Just to provide the backup calculations on the little Wulfen E, nasty little guy, so people can see how we got to the above. 



Thanks

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #58 on: 18 August 2015, 12:00:52 »
the Micro Pulse laser's heat still counts toward medium range calculations.  All weapons count toward short and medium, regardless of their own range limitations.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #59 on: 21 August 2015, 09:41:54 »
Coyotl A http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Card/713?skill=4

Move should be 14"j. Not sure at this point if it affects the PV.


Xotl: updated.  Costs raises to 34 points.
« Last Edit: 21 August 2015, 11:03:37 by Xotl »
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