Mech of the Week: Vindicator

[SteelRaven]

Yeah, other mechs have taken over the Vindi's traditional trooper role but few mechs truly become extinct in the BTU. More rare, yes but you always hear about a museum piece getting deployed when needed. 

[sadlerbw]

You can't really be too sad about it though. They have some really, really nice mechs these days. Much as it pains me to admit it, the Men Shen is probably the best medium Omni the Inner Sphere ever built, and the Agrotera is also very impressive. If you can build mechs like that, why spend the production resources on the Vindi? In the dark ages, the Cappellan medium mech RAT is full of 5/8 55T mechs, some of the best non-clan 50-tonners in the game, and even some clan tech at the high end. With that sort of competition, it's hard to justify adding new Vindi variants. The Raven II is on there as well, so you would even have competition for the specialized EW role. The again, they decided to make the Gun as a clean-sheet design, so maybe the Liao family isn't done with small, slow mechs just yet!

[mbear]

Mech of the Week: Vindicator
The Vindicator 1R ... Best of all, sixteen double heatsinks allowed both weapons to work overtime,

Point of order: The Vindicator 1R used Single Heat Sinks.

[wantec]

You can't really be too sad about it though. They have some really, really nice mechs these days. Much as it pains me to admit it, the Men Shen is probably the best medium Omni the Inner Sphere ever built, and the Agrotera is also very impressive. If you can build mechs like that, why spend the production resources on the Vindi? In the dark ages, the Cappellan medium mech RAT is full of 5/8 55T mechs, some of the best non-clan 50-tonners in the game, and even some clan tech at the high end. With that sort of competition, it's hard to justify adding new Vindi variants. The Raven II is on there as well, so you would even have competition for the specialized EW role. The again, they decided to make the Gun as a clean-sheet design, so maybe the Liao family isn't done with small, slow mechs just yet!

I would slot the Calliope in as the Vindy's successor. No jump jets, but the combo of Plasma Rifle, MML 9, and standard engine at 5/8 speed should make it a reliable lighter trooper. The Avalanche deployment section even mentions that it has seen use among the Warrior Houses although it doesn't seem to carry the same kind of concentrated long range punch with LRMs.

[mbear]

There is no indications it is not being made anymore... unless some source i don't have states otherwise.

If it is being made, the the variants produced are probably the 4L, 5L and maybe 6L. The latter two suffer from low speed though, not counting TSM.

Of course, if it is getting made, it ain't no longer a frontline 'Mech but something for reserve and militia units.

Maybe to act as support for the Gun omnimech?

[Iron Mongoose]

Point of order: The Vindicator 1R used Single Heat Sinks.

Quite so, and that's far from the only mistake I made. Thankfully, the underlying message is still accurate: 16 singles is more than ample for the 1R to use its guns.

[Arkansas Warrior]

This article inspired me to do some pontificating on early troopers in general.  Comments, questions, etc welcome: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=57352.msg1319643#new

[jklantern]

Confession time:  I don't play the tabletop game much.  I wouldn't know an actual good Mech if it stepped on me.  I will say, however, that in one of the few games I've played, the Vindicator wound up as my MVP.  I will ALWAYS love this Mech.

[cavingjan]

tros 3039 and 3050 (except clan) do not have faction available data for the later eras. That is the reason why the vindy does not sure as available in later eras.

[Iron Mongoose]

Interesting. Granted, the presence of many such mechs on RATs and such hinted otherwise, but good to know I'm not utterly crazy (just mostly).

That said, that doesn't I don't think alter the point that the Vindicator has received less attention in the Dark Age than other signature mechs like the Zeus, Panther, or Centurion, and does seem to have been supplanted by post Xin Shang mechs.

[Frabby]

Can anyone cite a source (other than the MUL) for the VND-1AA Avenging Angels being giftet to the FRR by the Capellans?

Also, which source has details about Justin Allard's 'Mech battle against Candace Liao please? This is the first time (I think) that I hear he was piloting a BJ.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Can anyone cite a source (other than the MUL) for the VND-1AA Avenging Angels being giftet to the FRR by the Capellans?

Tech Readout 3039, page 130, Variants.

[glitterboy2098]

Also, which source has details about Justin Allard's 'Mech battle against Candace Liao please? This is the first time (I think) that I hear he was piloting a BJ.

Warrior: Riposte, i believe. the two reminisce about it in a garden after she finds him doing Tai Chi.

[Frabby]

Tech Readout 3039, page 130, Variants.

Thank you, much obliged.

Warrior: Riposte, i believe. the two reminisce about it in a garden after she finds him doing Tai Chi.

Found it - page 68 of the book's FASA edition. I forgot how many details they share about the battle - year, world, location, background, tactics, and even what 'Mechs they were piloting. Stackpole really packs information more densely than most other authors.

[Luciora]

I loved the idea of the AA and wished it was expanded upon or even supplemented the original Vindicator much like how the Grand Dragon took over from the Dragon.  Star League tech would have helped regain the lost armor just from endo steel alone.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I think the biggest mistake on the AA was keeping all 16 heat sinks.  Dropping even three of them, plus the small laser, would have only reduced your armor protection by a single ton to 8 tons, comparable to the Phoenix Hawk.  It still would have had a PPC and LRM-5 for range, the medium to supplement the PPC up close, and while it would have had the potential to overheat, it would have been manageable.

[misterpants]

The -1AA designers apparently got the same memo the SHD-2D team did.

[glitterboy2098]

the -1AA and the SHD-2D are examples of the dangers of trying to achieve the effects of lostech without actually having lostech. when the paradigm is generally "armor, weapons, speed, pick two", things like Endosteel, XL engines, and DHS allow you to cheat and not sacrifice one to bolster the other two.
both also sacrificed so much in the armor category for their limited gains that it seems hard to imagine that many survived for long in an actual fight. and doing a near total rebuild to fit in endo, XL, etc on the handful of surviving examples probably wasn't going to be cost effective.
so you'd almost have to design a new variant built from the ground up with all that. and i suspect the main goal of the time was to create something original, rather than hide an advanced machine inside the skin of of an old one.

[Getz]

the -1AA and the SHD-2D are examples of the dangers of trying to achieve the effects of lostech without actually having lostech. when the paradigm is generally "armor, weapons, speed, pick two", things like Endosteel, XL engines, and DHS allow you to cheat and not sacrifice one to bolster the other two.
both also sacrificed so much in the armor category for their limited gains that it seems hard to imagine that many survived for long in an actual fight. and doing a near total rebuild to fit in endo, XL, etc on the handful of surviving examples probably wasn't going to be cost effective.
so you'd almost have to design a new variant built from the ground up with all that. and i suspect the main goal of the time was to create something original, rather than hide an advanced machine inside the skin of of an old one.

I'm not sure I entirely agree.  The 1AA makes the mistake of compromising only the armour for speed.  If they'd stripped out two heat sinks the machine would still have a perfectly workable heat curve and an adequate six and a half tons of armour.  Not ideal by any means but much, much better than what we actually got.

[Valtech]

Used the 3025 Vindicators in several tabletop games waaaaaay back when
a Warhammer was on the box stuff came in 8) The Vindicator surprised
me. I ended up in it during a multi-game competition...I actually did very
well against a P'hawk. The speed can be an issue if you are careless reading
the terrain but the 3025 mix of weapons is indeed "good enough".

[Wrangler]

Vindicator had been favorite trooper mech.  It's not the toughest thing out there, but its can pack a punch while not being all-powerful machine on the Battlefield.  Given it's one of few Successor War designs made during the wars, it was last of the Capellan homebrew machines until the 31st Century.

The Drone version, was that done before the rules said you could have 2 legger as a drone?

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yeah, if I recall correctly, the Capellan experience with them influenced the WoB to stick to quads for theirs.

[garhkal]

I personally love the Vindicator and have at least 3 or 4 miniatures of it.

While i don't have any minis of it (to my knowledge), like you i always considered it a solid ranged mech.  With the 16 heat sinks and great range, it could stay active, hopping around plinking away to it's hearts content. 

As far as refits, i like the idea of dropping down to the 10 base heat sinks its engine gives, and making them all double (so it now sinks 20 vice 16), and using that saved 6 tons to
A) add in a 2nd LRM 5 OR upgrading the existing one to a LRM-15 with another ton of ammo
B) inc the movement to a 5/8/5
or C) giving it a little better close in weaponry (maybe a trio more of Smalls, and some er mediums..)

[JadedFalcon]

Has anyone played the St. Ives variant? It's one of the Vindicators I haven't tried out. How does the LL+LRM-10 rate?

[worktroll]

Not as satifying. The value of the 10-point hitter, and the extra hex of short range, seems to outweight the potential of the larger LRM rack - which rarely delivers the extra promised damage in my experience. In stock 3025 play, the PPC deserves its reputation, while if indulging in custom play, the St Ives is lacklustre.

The Vindicator's the 'Mech I started my sons on when they first began to play. It's very forgiving, and provides a better mix of "one-of" weapons than the Shadow Hawk. Loves me the Badger of Tikonov.

[JadedFalcon]

Interesting. Makes me wonder if the SIC Vindicator is really just a support unit for the PPC Blackjack.

[Tymers Realm]

While i don't have any minis of it (to my knowledge), like you i always considered it a solid ranged mech.  With the 16 heat sinks and great range, it could stay active, hopping around plinking away to it's hearts content. 

As far as refits, i like the idea of dropping down to the 10 base heat sinks its engine gives, and making them all double (so it now sinks 20 vice 16), and using that saved 6 tons to
A) add in a 2nd LRM 5 OR upgrading the existing one to a LRM-15 with another ton of ammo
B) inc the movement to a 5/8/5
or C) giving it a little better close in weaponry (maybe a trio more of Smalls, and some er mediums..)

Well, I did a Vindicator variant that does some of what you're looking for. It's 5/8/4 with a ERPPC, LRM-10, a Med and a Sm Laser. I also included a version that has a MML-7 instead of the LRM-10. It's located in my Variants thread.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

One interesting point of the 5L vs the 4L.  The 4L was Trinity Alliance only, and the 5L was also available to Mercenaries.

It suggests a common design program, with the 5L stripping proprietary and less profitable (stealth and XL engines respectively) for a money making export model?  Or at least something to sell to merc in Confederation service?

Thinking about it, designing around energy weapons would appeal to the mercenary market, no need to buy ammo as well and eliminating the chance of an ammo cook off ruining the mech.  Building it to engage is close combat could also be a feature, not a bug, for the CapCon.  After all if it gets shot up somewhat more getting into a close quarters engagement, who are those mercenaries going to have to buy their spare parts from to fix it?  }:)