Author Topic: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me  (Read 3896 times)

Nicolai_Malthus

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Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« on: 19 November 2017, 00:08:33 »
In an effort to get some friends into the BT-lore, I've been working on elevator pitches for explaining the flavor of the various House-rivalries in the Inner Sphere (beyond "They share a border"). With most houses it's been really easy (for example, the Capellans hate the FedSuns and the Free Worlds for their respective realm's dereliction of duty towards its citizenry, by Capellan standards; FedSuns hate the Combine and the Confederation for being totalitarian states etc), but with Steiner vs Marik, I'm having problems.

From what I've gathered when reading the Handbooks for Marik and Steiner, the FWL came off as a funhouse mirror of the LC. Both were a number of sovereign states with a powerful industrial base that formed a larger nation for mutual protection, but whereas the Steiner realm weathered a number of internal crises and came out stronger for it, the FWL kept fragmenting and suffered numerous revolutions (compare the number of Archons serving with the number of Captain-Generals).

Is that the crux of it? The FWL envies the accomplishments of the LC, and the LC views the FWL as cautionary tale?
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Dies Irae

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #1 on: 19 November 2017, 00:36:31 »
The fact that both sides worked very hard to make their shared border glow-in-the-dark during the 1st Succession War is a major contributing factor. Both the League and Commonwealth were very pragmatic in their use of atomics.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #2 on: 19 November 2017, 01:14:56 »
The shared border is a major thing, as every House has their ancestral enemies on their borders because of the long hostile relationship with their neighbors.  In the case of the LC/FWL rivalry, there's a good bit of worlds changing hands over the course of history too (see the Bolan Thumb).

Beyond that natural relationship of hating your neighbors, however, the LC and FWL can hate each other because they're both economic powerhouses.  Steiner and Marik corporations and traders eagerly screw each other over in their shared bids of making money, and each time one trumps the other it's more fuel for a military response to settle the debts.

The Eagle

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #3 on: 19 November 2017, 07:00:28 »
Yeah, their rivalry has always been as much about economics as it is about conquests.  The Lyrans are rightly known for the strength of their industrial base thanks to worlds like Coventry and Hesperus.  While the League also has major manufacturing centers -- Keystone being the largest in volume, with Irian running second -- League companies are better known for their predatory natures.  League traders are renowned for their ability to squeeze every possible C-bill out of a deal.  Irian Interstellar is the best and most obvious example: They are the single largest corporation in the Inner Sphere, with branches covering services and industries of all types, and expanded to the point that they are the legal government of the planet Irian.  Read the lore on the AWS-10KM and you'll see that the Combine had to put exceedingly strict wording in their technology trade with Irian to prevent them from ripping off the snub nose PPC tech.  That's the reputation of the League in corporate  circles.
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Takiro

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #4 on: 19 November 2017, 08:29:08 »
Their neighbors who are probably the greatest economic rivals in the InnerSphere.

Steiner is rich because of dumb luck in the eyes of Free Worlders. Just look at their corruption with Social Generals and all. The Lyran people would probably love to be liberated from the yoke of that inept oligarchy.

Marik is nuts in the eyes of Lyrans and can you really trust them? The Free Worlds League is a collection of self center provinces who can't even work together for the common good. They drive hardest bargains and you know how everyone loves business folk especially those who love to haggle endlessly.

Ruger

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #5 on: 19 November 2017, 08:59:00 »
Sometimes, being almost like another person brings people together...sometimes, those minor differences (or even the similarities) spark the bitterest of rivalries...

Or put it another way...sometimes siblings (or even twins) can be the best of buddies...or sometimes the worst of enemies...

Being business competitors only adds fuel to the fire...

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Gallowglacht

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #6 on: 19 November 2017, 14:38:38 »
They are in direct competition in the area they both see as their core strength. Along with all the abstract differences between factions, this is up close and personal. If your company lost out on a trade deal, or a service contract, there is a good bet one of THEM took that money away from you. So there is the constant, but fairly low level effect of being the burr under each others saddle. A constant, nagging, always present irritation.

Which basically twists the knife after the major root cause. Which I feel is, ironically, because they are so similar.
While it's often said that a conquered planet in BTech is a simple change of the flag and things carry on, that can't really be true. The Combine and Capellans are closed, highly controlled rigid societies, complete with secret police. The others are more open. While the Great Houses are more interested in the big fish than hassling every ordinary citizen, for the powerful, rich, elites, there is going to be a big change going from an open to closed society, or the other way around. Each of the other 4 borders means that there will be a large change in how things work for the movers and shakers, change that will be resisted.
Except on the Lyran-Free Worlds border. There it doesn't really seem like it matters. Once you get over the hump of nationalism, a change in border does not mean a transformation in your way of life. Meaning that you will probably adapt to the new regime more quickly that if you had to start learning Bushido, for example, or keeping an eye out for secret police. You are less likely to resent the new regime and pine for the old days.

Which is fine for the average Joe on the street, but must terrify the Archon and Captain-General. It means you are vulnerable to world's flipping quickly. A trickle could turn into a flood. And if it does build momentum, you are probably doomed. Why would worlds wait to be crushed. Why not flip when it is clear who the winner is going to be, and get to keep your company? While the Combine and Confederation would have to take you out world by world as each planet resists in turn, the other side of the Lyran-Free Worlds border simply has to build momentum before becoming an existential threat. And if one of them does manage to eat the other, the resulting Economic and Industrial powerhouse will curb stomp the other houses.

So that Bolan Finger, that isn't just a salient. It's a wedge that could chip off a chunk of the Commonwealth, and if the Free Worlds begin to swarm, the rest might follow. It has to die, and die now, no matter the cost, nuke the hell out of it if you have to, but eliminate that threat. And from the other side, if you can't hold Bolan and it's neighbours, burn it down. In fact, why not give the Lyrans a nice 10 Parsec strip of glass floored, self lighting car parks, to teach them what happens when they mess with us.
Because if you lose a world to the Dracs or Capellans, you'll probably be able to claw it back when the time is right and be welcomed like heroic liberators. Lose it to Steiner/Marik, you probably aren't getting it back. You can't afford to give an inch on this border as it will quickly become light-years.
Which sucks if you happen to live on the border.

And that is why you never turn your back on a Capellan, but shoot Lyrans on sight.

jklantern

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #7 on: 19 November 2017, 20:28:45 »
The more I hear about the FWL-Lyran rivalry, the more it becomes my favorite one in the setting.
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The Eagle

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #8 on: 19 November 2017, 21:37:23 »
The best part of the rivalry is fielding Zeuses and Commandos alongside my Orions and Hermes IIs.  Variety, as they say, is the spice of life.
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Nicolai_Malthus

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #9 on: 26 November 2017, 13:13:17 »
Thanks for all of the insightful replies, guys!

I gotta agree, the Steiner-Marik rivalry is one of the most interesting ones. Their conflict isn't an existential one, or dare I say, a clash of civilizations like the rest of the Great Houses. They're too much alike not to fear one another, for all of the reasons stated in the thread, especially the reasons Gallowglatch stated. Familiarity breeds contempt, I guess.

What also strikes me as interesting, when comparing the two realms, is how they deal with dissidents. The general theme I gauged from the Steiners is that they either jail, isolate, or assassinate their rivals, while the Mariks go for executions (firing squads galore) of traitors and dissidents. From that, I can see the Lyrans reacting in horror to the junta-like methods of the League, while the League look at the Lyrans as hypocrites of the highest order. They're just as rutheless, yet they don't have the intestinal fortitude to get their hands dirty.
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skiltao

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #10 on: 30 November 2017, 14:08:27 »
The general theme I gauged from the Steiners is that they either jail, isolate, or assassinate their rivals, while the Mariks go for executions (firing squads galore) of traitors and dissidents.

Traditionally, Lyran power structures tend to favor big business while Free Worlds power structures tend to favor local government. I think that plays into the cultural difference in how they deal with dissidents.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #11 on: 30 November 2017, 15:22:07 »
I'd say one word fairly well captures the difference between how Steiner and Marik handle internal dissidents:

Loki.

Easy

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #12 on: 30 November 2017, 15:48:53 »
I'll suggest another angle by which to consider what Steiners and Mariks contend for.

The Lyran industrial machine requires, abstractly, more higher-skilled and higher-paid labor than the Marik dealmaking bazaar. Ergo, there will be an inbalance with regard to immigration and emigration.

The Marik economy will be under a constant drain of labor to the Lyran. On a world for world basis, especially in areas bordering other nations/Houses, it may not be as pronounced or acute, but along the LC/FWL border, I can't but imagine that it would be a constant thing.

Alternatively, Lyran merchants will probably be under the constant pressure of Marik economic policy. Since the FWL are elite traders, they will undoubtedly be heavily backed by Atreus, which will constantly be pushing, if not quite protectionism, then law and policy that gives its traders every advantage possible.

So, these two principles may generate expressions of partisan slogans and political campaigns highlighting the virtues and faults of the other side, 'elitists', 'ignorant masses', 'corrupt labor unions', 'scam artists', and the like, fueling larger movements that peak in trade-wars and cross-border raiding.

This conception of the culture clash owes less to the conflicts of personalities between Marik and Steiner rulers, but more to the economic and political priorities of their peoples and local leaders.

I'll add a further twist and suggest that Lyran attitudes in general deteriorate with regards to the FWL after 3050 and don't really improve much after decades of the FWL's soft borders enabling them to devote less of their tax base to endless border threats, where the Lyrans must always contend with Clan Jade Falcon, with whom diplomacy is a daydream. In other words, to your Lyran, it's not hard to imagine that any unfavorable Marik move, military, political or economic, is a kind of stab-in-the-back, requiring a vigilant watch, further exacerbating tensions and prejudices.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2017, 16:08:01 by Easy »

Gallowglacht

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #13 on: 30 November 2017, 16:22:49 »
That's an interesting point, but I'm not quite sure I agree that there is that stark a difference in their engineering skill requirements.
For example, when we check out the Factory Worlds table in Inner Sphere at War the FWL are in touching distance of the LC when it comes to numbers of factories. The LC has a 10% advantage, but it's also about 33% bigger.
I've had the impression that the Commonwealths advantage isn't so much in raw output, but that it is better managed as a top down economy than the fractious and divided League is. I think the manufacturing levels and skills requirements are comparable, but the Commonwealth gets better bang for buck. The regulatory environment is more directly catered to, if big business needs something, the Archon makes it happen, whereas in the League the Captain General can't pick lunch off a menu without a row breaking out about which planets produce has been snubbed. OK, so that's an exaggeration, but you get the idea, nothing is simple in the FWL. Moving X production to Y planet might make economic sense, but planet Z can lodge a complaint, a debate has to be had in Parliament, compromises made and so on.

The last bit, about sneaky Leaguers sticking the boot in while brave noble Lyrans are off defending civilisation definitely plays a part I imagine.

Easy

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #14 on: 30 November 2017, 16:46:56 »
Sure, politicians will exaggerate differences to make points. A rivalry is based on those differences and it so happens that people can be coopted into acting out against perceived injustices that are actually little more than anxious diversions and neurotic hair-pulling.

As well as, of course, pointing out the hypocrisies of the other side, like:

If Lyrans are so confident of their heavy metal, why do they go to the limit of elevating just any charismatic leader when iron will conquer the weak flesh?

Alternatively, if the Free Worlds are so free, why is upward mobility more difficult and violent in the League?

Inconsistencies like this are the stuff of endless cultural speculation, conclusion drawing and condemnation. These types of intellectual excursions are tightly moderated, suppressed and denied in the totalitarian societies. Wheras in the Federated Suns, for instance, they aren't repressed, but encouraged, we can speculate, by popular media by the argument that it isn't internal diversity of interest that's the problem, but the lack of it.

So, we might consider that, by this, the LC and FWL lie at the center of an Inner Sphere conflict of visions, with the FS, DC and CC representing the flanks along such a continuum of economic argument.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2017, 17:10:33 by Easy »

Hellraiser

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Re: Please explain the Marik-Steiner rivalry to me
« Reply #15 on: 11 December 2017, 00:44:55 »
The best part of the rivalry is fielding Zeuses and Commandos alongside my Orions and Hermes IIs.  Variety, as they say, is the spice of life.

Those actually pair up well together in Heavy/Fire & Light/Striker lances.
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