Author Topic: 3145: Strength of each clan  (Read 5717 times)

wildkadabra

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3145: Strength of each clan
« on: 02 December 2017, 19:45:05 »
Hello all, while I have been a huge fan of battletech for many years, most of my exposure has come from MechWarrior games and it is only recently that I have become more invested in the TT and post invasion lore. Like many here, I am a big fan of the clans, and throughout the years, the power balance among them has been a continuously shifting thing.

In the current 3145 era, I'd like to know what in your opinion are the strongest clans, from an objective point of view. How do the clans in their current state compare to one another and which ones would come out on top should they ever go out in a Great Refusal style war in the current era.

Please lets keep this respectful, this is heavily opinion based, all I ask is that you back your opinion with lore facts as to why you think X clan would come up on top.

O5P_Ghost

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #1 on: 02 December 2017, 20:31:26 »
Here are my thoughts,

The Falcons are a tough nut but they are awfully spread out. Concentrated strikes on isolated units and assets would hurt them a lot.

The Wolves are too new in their Empire to be effective. In 10 years, they'd be very strong. Now, I'd worry

The Bears seem to be the strongest. I don't know how tough they are though. The last major war they fought was the Combine/Dominion War 2 in 3110? The warriors might be out of practice. The two things they have going for them are the stability of their infrastructure and that Navy.

Speaking of Navies, I don't place the Ravens that high in a Refusal style war. Naval assets are strong but could be vulnerable and the Outworlds doesn't have that much industry to back up a Refusal War.

The Horses are similar to the wolves and Falcons. They have new territories they are trying to assimilate and might be strong in a few years. They are also torn internally due to the Mongol Doctrine and the craziness with Malvina. I don't see them as being strong in offense but they'd be a pain to break.

The Sharks are good merchants but don't have much to fight a war out of. Not even going to think about them

As for a Refusal War 2:

1. Bears
2. Wolves
3. Falcons
4. Horses
5. Ravens
6 Sharks

2-3 could easily flip as could 4-5. None of this counts if the Houses decide to jump in this as well. I'll ignore the Homeworld guys cuz I think they're dead. Bio-weapons suck

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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #2 on: 02 December 2017, 20:45:20 »
In my own view:

Wolf Empire Pro-Argument: All the plot armor of House Davion AND the Harlem Globetrotters combined.  Their leader is named after Alaric, they were able to prosecute not one but two wars of conquest without supply or lower castes, they have the Second Coming of Natasha Kerensky, and of course there's all those meta trajectory tidbits that all point to a Wolfen ilClandom.
Wolf Empire Con-Argument:  If one were to not acknowledge that the Wolves are the Gary Stus of the BTU, here's where they might be tripped up.  As the Wolf Empire, the Wolves are now a warrior caste without lower castes.  They're not even a complete Warrior Caste, as they've had to enroll indig planetary miltia into the hallowed ranks of their Touman.  As 2nd line warriors, but warriors no less.  If their plot armor fails them on their leap to Terra, they've got absolutely no safety net at all.  They're going to be swallowed by Sphereoids and the Empire will just become another Successor State without all the non-warrior trappings of Clan culture.


Ghost Bears: Self-eliminated from contention as strongest Clan, as they've gone Native.  However, if one were to continue to consider a branch of the Rasalhague Dominion as still being Clan...
Pro-Strongest Clan Argument: They've dispensed with much of the inherent silliness that hamstrings Clan operations.  They fight wars intelligently now, and for some reason have the resources that Kurita never did when it controlled the Rasalhague Military District.
Con-Strongest Clan Argument:  Well the whole "they're not Clan anymore" thing.  Besides that, strategically they just sit and sandbag.  In the latter half of the 31st and first half of the 32nd century just sitting there and letting fate deal you a lucky hand worked out for them, but it'd be sloppy storytelling for the ilClandom to just fall into their laps without their having sought it out.

Jade Falcons:
Pro Argument: Malvina has taken what it means to be Clan to the logical extreme.  If anyone deserves to be ilClan, it's the Falcons.  Ruthless, fearless, and not at all afraid to break a few billion eggs to make an omelet.
Con Argument:  They're not the Wolves.  No way will they have anything nice if it comes at the expense of the Wolves.  Right now they're positioned in the same place in the story as House Liao was right on the eve of the 4th SW.

Sea Foxes/Clan Protectorate: Honestly, if the events of the BTU were not predetermined, I'd pin the Sea Foxes as the strongest Clan.  There's a vacuum left by ComStar, and the Sea Foxes are the only ones who can fill it.  And they certainly should.
Sea Foxes Con argument: Arguably, they're no more true "Clanners" anymore than what used to be the Ghost Bears.  Even if they do take over as the sinister kingmakers and power brokers of the Inner Sphere, it might not count as being the most powerful Clan.

Raven Alliance Pro-Argument: They got the warships.
Raven Alliance Con-Argument(s): This is a game of stompy mech action.  Having the best WarShip fleet is about as good as a football team having the best cheerleaders.  Flashy and draws fans, but doesn't win where it counts.  Besides, they're chronically minor league.  Went from being a Homeworld Clan to being half of a minor Periphery faction.  Going sideways rather than upwards on the scale there.

Hells Horses:  I got no pro-argument for them.  Their role has been, at best,  Malvina's Mooks.  Now they're not even that.  Unless the mysterious Operation NOYAN involves ambitions and/or heretofore unknown faction(s) entering the Game of Space Thrones, they're just disenfrachised small fry.


WeaponX

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #3 on: 03 December 2017, 04:57:05 »
In my own view:
Ghost Bears: Self-eliminated from contention as strongest Clan, as they've gone Native.  However, if one were to continue to consider a branch of the Rasalhague Dominion as still being Clan...
Pro-Strongest Clan Argument: They've dispensed with much of the inherent silliness that hamstrings Clan operations.  They fight wars intelligently now, and for some reason have the resources that Kurita never did when it controlled the Rasalhague Military District.
Con-Strongest Clan Argument:  Well the whole "they're not Clan anymore" thing.  Besides that, strategically they just sit and sandbag.  In the latter half of the 31st and first half of the 32nd century just sitting there and letting fate deal you a lucky hand worked out for them, but it'd be sloppy storytelling for the ilClandom to just fall into their laps without their having sought it out.

It might be your "view" but where in the sourcebooks or novels does it say that the Bears are "not a Clan anymore"?  Last I checked they are still members of the "Council of 6" (which is the IS Clans' version of the old Grand Council).  Also, other Clans still hold Trials against them and vice versa, not only for resources but for warriors and genetic legacies too, something that they won't do if they don't still consider the Bears as "Clan".

As for the Bears just "sitting there", that shows just how big the Bears are when all they have to do is "do nothing" (but send three Galaxies to help pacify the ROTS) and yet somehow they end up annexing the Vega Protectorate, giving them a corridor towards Terra that they have the option of using as a lauching pad should they choose to join the race to take Terra.
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jklantern

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #4 on: 03 December 2017, 09:59:03 »
While the Sharkfoxes don't have a lot of Blue Sky Real Estate (that we know of), they got out of the Wars of Reaving and Jihad comparatively all right, and have become the economic powerhouse of the Clans.  And their dealings in the Deep Periphery are something of a mystery; they were up to something in the Chainlaine Islands, but they are VERY cagey about it (per Interstellar Expeditions).  Underestimating them is probably a terrible idea, as they have demonstrated a tendency to think long term and to plan.
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Øystein

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #5 on: 03 December 2017, 10:07:37 »
Field Manual: 3145 gives you the pure numbers.

As you can see, people interpret them differently.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #6 on: 03 December 2017, 11:21:10 »
It might be your "view" but where in the sourcebooks or novels does it say that the Bears are "not a Clan anymore"?  Last I checked they are still members of the "Council of 6" (which is the IS Clans' version of the old Grand Council).  Also, other Clans still hold Trials against them and vice versa, not only for resources but for warriors and genetic legacies too, something that they won't do if they don't still consider the Bears as "Clan".

That's a Non Sequitur, as it wouldn't need to be my view if it were explicitly stated that the Ghost Bears are no longer a Clan.  Ergo, it's my view :]  That's my opinion because of how I define what it is to be a Clan in the first place, and my definition goes well beyond "having Clan in their name, and/or having been introduced as an invading or home Clan faction".  Even if the former were the criterion for Clandom, they don't even meet the standard of being simply called a Clan anymore.  Their proper name is now the Rasalhague Dominion, and what was the Ghost Bear Clan is now a portion of a faction that is a hybrid of Clan and Inner Sphere cultures.   In my view, it takes more than having breeding programs, talking funny, and organizing by stars and clusters to be considered "Clan".  The "Clans" are cultural aliens who have come (or returned, in their own view) to the Inner Sphere for conquest and to impose their way of life there.  The Ghost Bears were culturally alien, they did come and conquer, but then instead of imposing their way of life on their OZ they rolled over and became part of their conquered people.  They even acknowledge civilian oversight, which is anathema to "Clandom".  Again, all in my view.

Now to be clear, none of this was intended to be a dig at the Dominion.  Just because I said they weren't Clan (objectively, I think it's clear anyone has to agree they're a "hybrid" between Clan and IS) it doesn't mean I was saying anything negative about their prowess or prospects.   Anyway, segueing into....

Quote
As for the Bears just "sitting there", that shows just how big the Bears are when all they have to do is "do nothing" (but send three Galaxies to help pacify the ROTS) and yet somehow they end up annexing the Vega Protectorate, giving them a corridor towards Terra that they have the option of using as a lauching pad should they choose to join the race to take Terra.

Turtling/sandbagging is a powerful strategy in any number of games... it's not inherently stupid.  But again it's not very "Clanlike", by my own definition of what is and isn't "Clan".  As Oystein pointed out upthread, the objective numbers are out there.  How we interpret them is subjective, and in my case I look at the question of "who's the strongest Clan" in practical terms of who's most likely to become ilClan.  I think it's a fair yardstick as Clan society is literally built around achieving this goal, so it's an applicable way to look at "who's strongest Clan" in every era, not just this era where we're (presumably) on the cusp of someone actually/finally pulling it off.

And by that yardstick, sitting around until someone makes you angry then swatting back is a terrible strategy for becoming ilClan.  Which is fine... the Rasalhague Dominion in all likelihood doesn't WANT to be ilClan.  But again, going by the yardstick, that means a low placement on the seeding for BECOMING ilClan.  And going back to my first point about them... they're (arguably) not even Clan in the first place so seeding them for ilClandom in the first place is itself likely a non sequitur.

Foxx Ital

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #7 on: 03 December 2017, 15:19:12 »
To be fair the bears have always turtled. Their ninja clan way is to wait and see...then hulk smash.
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truetanker

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #8 on: 03 December 2017, 19:19:43 »
As a Horse fan, I'm waiting for the next mission, wherever it takes me. So I turn my attention to my other lost clan, Hell's Horses-in-Exile, Stone Lion.

While it is true we lost our namesake, we still are the baddest around. Not only do we have a good control on things, we make items others need.

Quick rundown as of 3085:

Aerie BA*
Athena Tank
Athena-XR Tank
Bane 3
Bane 4
Bowman
Bowman 2
Chaeronea 3 Aero*
Chrysaor Aero*
Chrysaor 2 Aero*
Corvis
Elemental BA*
Epona Tank
Gargoyle Omni
Gnome BA
Gorgon Proto*
Gorgon 3 Proto*
Hellbringer Omni
Hephaestus Tank
Hydaspes Aero*
Incubus 4
Issus Aero*
Issus 2 Aero*
Mars Tank
Mars 2 Tank
Minotaur-XR Proto
Nova Omni
Orc Proto
Roc Proto*
Roc 2 Proto*
Shadow Hawk IIC 6
2- Stone Rhino 2
3- Stormcrow Omni
2- Summoner Omni /*
Svantovit Tank
Vandal Aero
Zorya Tank

And from there the rest is muddy. The * designates Bearclaw II planet, a Snow Raven production plant. 3085 Stone Lion owns it... also " the Vipers also managed to successfully seize a Summoner production facility on Bearclaw ", ( Wars of Reaving, p. 48-49, "The Raven Absorption" ).

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WeaponX

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #9 on: 04 December 2017, 08:18:16 »
Their proper name is now the Rasalhague Dominion, and what was the Ghost Bear Clan is now a portion of a faction that is a hybrid of Clan and Inner Sphere cultures.

Nah dude, they never changed their Clan name, they're just part of a greater entity known as the "Rasalhague Dominion", but they are still kind of removed from it when it comes to Clan matters.  Read the Dark Age novel "Trial by Chaos" and you'll see how the Bears kind of keep themselves seperated from the Dominion as a whole when it comes to Clan matters/traditions etc.
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SteveRestless

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #10 on: 16 December 2017, 16:53:43 »
As the Wolf Empire, the Wolves are now a warrior caste without lower castes. 

Not really though. They brought some of their lower castes with them. A lot of whom were held up by the Lyrans (but given what happens to the Lyrans afterwards, I can't imagine most are MIA by 3145). It was focused on the less replaceable lower castes though. Scientists and skilled technical staff, rather than laborers and astechs. You can get unskilled labor anywhere. 

They certainly have a high degree of freeborn/local/native integration though, it's absolutely necessary with a move like that.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

marauder648

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #11 on: 19 December 2017, 12:28:52 »
The Bears have always been kind of Campy/sandbagy in their MO though.  They were slow, cautious and built a lot of stuff.  And whilst the Dominion is happy to hunker down and be left alone.  If you poke them, we've seen them go REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! out of bloody nowhere three times now. Twice against the Nova Cats and the 2nd time round they nearly exterminated them (why the Nova Cats went full ****** and KEPT poking and harassing their larger neighbour and then acting like the injured party when they got kicked in the nuts and then kneed in the teeth as they fell over is beyond me).  And of course during the Jihad when Stone and friends went "So...we think its the Wolver....oh they ran off..." *outside all you can hear is REEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!*
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snewsom2997

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #12 on: 19 December 2017, 14:25:18 »
The Bears have always been kind of Campy/sandbagy in their MO though.  They were slow, cautious and built a lot of stuff.  And whilst the Dominion is happy to hunker down and be left alone.  If you poke them, we've seen them go REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! out of bloody nowhere three times now. Twice against the Nova Cats and the 2nd time round they nearly exterminated them (why the Nova Cats went full ****** and KEPT poking and harassing their larger neighbour and then acting like the injured party when they got kicked in the nuts and then kneed in the teeth as they fell over is beyond me).  And of course during the Jihad when Stone and friends went "So...we think its the Wolver....oh they ran off..." *outside all you can hear is REEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!*

Fits though, there totem animal is a opportunistic predator, sitting there in the snow drifts popping out every once in a while to kill and maim.

Jellico

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #13 on: 20 December 2017, 00:09:20 »
Polar Bears are being driven extinct by environmental changes in their natural ranges and having been driven South are now hybridizing with Grizzlies.

 O:-)

snewsom2997

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #14 on: 20 December 2017, 21:05:44 »
Polar Bears are being driven extinct by environmental changes in their natural ranges and having been driven South are now hybridizing with Grizzlies.

 O:-)

They started as Grizzlies, hence the ability to interbreed.

Jellico

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #15 on: 21 December 2017, 14:19:20 »
That's Hans. How do you explain Sandra?  :P

Foxx Ital

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #16 on: 21 December 2017, 15:56:11 »
Panda express?
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truetanker

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #17 on: 21 December 2017, 16:18:56 »
Panda express?
Only if they conquer House Liao.

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anastrace

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #18 on: 22 December 2017, 11:31:08 »
The Wolves seem like they are most likely to be the next Terran landlords at least from what I've read so far. I would love to see a unified homeclan task force (under the Adders maybe?) invade instead pushing through the old Wolf OZ down toward Terra.

It does seem odd that even now, 70-80 years after the Wars of Reaving that we still haven't heard hide nor hair of them. Unless of course some dingus stumbled on a society bioweapon and wiped themselves out, ala Galedon 5.
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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #19 on: 22 December 2017, 13:18:10 »
IMO -

Top spot goes to the Ghost Bears.  Their military is at near full strength and is a sleeping giant waiting to be provoked.  In addition they have a strong infrastructure to support it.

Second place goes to the Jade Falcons (barely).  While they have a large military it is highly fractured between Malvina's Mongol supporters and conservative traditionalist Jade Falcons with the potential of another internal conflict quite likely.  It doesn't help their position that their previous internal conflict cost them a significant portion of their military strength including a WarShip.  In addition while they have conquered many Lyran worlds, they are stretched thinly so many of their newly claimed worlds have few if any Falcon units posted to them not to mention that their logistics network has to be stretched to the breaking point.

Third place goes to the Wolves.  While their military strength has greatly increased in recent years most of their new Spheroid warriors haven't completely integrated into the Clan and cannot be fully trusted to put the needs of the Clan over their homeworlds.  In addition they were forced to leave behind a significant portion of their military infrastructure behind when they moved to their new home.  Not to mention that the locals are still getting used to their new masters.

Fourth place goes to the Hell's Horses.  Their Khan's (reluctant) support of Malvina has cost them significant military strength and their infrastructure isn't really strong enough to quickly replace them but they are fairly well situated to take advantage of the limited number of Falcon units facing them if they are willing to risk Malvina's wrath.

Fifth place goes to Sea Foxes.  While their military is fairly strong and they have a strong military infrastructure to support it, both are stretched throughout the Inner Sphere and their military (as far as I can tell) hasn't coordinated their actions in decades so coordinating a joint operation will be difficult.

Sixth place goes to the Ravens.  While they have a large WarShip fleet, despite being attached to the former OA for decades their military support infrastructure is still critically weak.  Reactivating their WarShip fleet has stretched their resources to the breaking point and their ability to keep their WarShip fleet active is questionable.  In addition, their traditional focus on aerospace power has left their ground forces critically weak.  While they have the power to take worlds, their ability to hold those worlds over the long-term is questionable.  It doesn't help them that they have neglected their OA allies' military forces over the past couple decades or have for all intents and purposes seized control of the alliance leaving their relations with their 'allies' strained.
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Øystein

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #20 on: 22 December 2017, 16:52:50 »
The bears are hobbled by civilian leadership over the military.

Too many bear tantrum saw to that.

Kitsune413

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Re: 3145: Strength of each clan
« Reply #21 on: 22 December 2017, 17:12:34 »
Everything that's been said about the Sea Foxes being stretched out is entirely true.

I just wanted to point out that the last few times Clan Wolf has messed with us we beat them over the head with a rolled up newspaper.

I'm with TDC though, as far as who the next Ilclan will be. Knowing Alaric and Stone duke it out on Terra makes all the other options pretty bad.

Also if Malvina won then its not like there would be any houses left in 2250.
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