Author Topic: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?  (Read 14792 times)

Frederick Steiner

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What is the state of scientific knowledge within the Inner Sphere?

Is there knowledge of basic sciene, like Physics, Chemistry, Biology?

Do children learn science at school?

Do people study science at academies?

And if they do, do people research in their scientific fields?

Do people invent?

Wouldn't people be able to research and invent everything that was invented before?

And if not, why not?

What does Battletech canon say about that?

Mattlov

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #1 on: 28 May 2017, 10:39:55 »
It's the future of the 80's.  So I'd imagine most education would be along the lines of education around the late-90's to early 2000s, but before computing was a super big part of it.

I'd guess learn on laptops, have basic networking skills, basic computer operations abilities.  Average life span has increased significantly, so medical/biological knowledge seems there, as would being able to study and analyze new planets and moons.

The sciences are probably more advanced than now, what with space exploration and all.  There would be more knowledge on how the general universe works, and then history lessons about Star League Terraforming and things like that.

People always invent.  The Blood Of Kerensky Trilogy is is mentioned that people use myomer for guitar strings to make new sounds, so small innovations and inventions are already happening.  I'd bet a lot of it is planet-centric, solving a problem for their particular world instead of inventing an Inner Sphere wide solution to a problem.

Re-inventing Star League tech requires the knowledge of how to do it.  A lot of that information was lost.  This wasn't thought about back then, because the original writers didn't have an internet for information sharing to base their universe off of.  I'd also guess that military tech isn't something you'd find there anyway.  I doubt I could go on Youtube and learn how to repair an F-22.

Also, a lot of advanced industry was destroyed.  Sure, you can have the blueprints to make a Gauss Rifle, but if you don't have a way to make the proper strength capacitors, or able to properly wire something, blueprints don't help.  And for military tech, ComStar was actively sabotaging such attempts.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #2 on: 28 May 2017, 13:20:44 »
I think it's very deferent depending on where you are.  On core worlds, where there's a lot of money and resources, I'd bet children have access to education in all the most advanced sciences (though of course each nation has its own teaching practices) and we know each nation has a few top universities that at least attempt research. 

But, we also know that every nation has vast swaths of worlds where education is learning how to farm from the folks, and hitch the mule to the plow.  There's no need to learn about fusion power, because there aren't a dozen fusion reactors on the whole world.  So there are trillions who are cut off from the march of technology and aren't really participating in trying to recover the lost days of the Star League.

And of course, as Mattlov correctly points out, weather or not the top universities and scientists would have been able to recover lostech on their own or not, with ComStar very actively and aggressively working to prevent such a recovery, they were pretty much doomed.
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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #3 on: 28 May 2017, 14:18:02 »
What is the state of scientific knowledge within the Inner Sphere?

Is there knowledge of basic sciene, like Physics, Chemistry, Biology?

Do children learn science at school?

Do people study science at academies?

And if they do, do people research in their scientific fields?

Do people invent?

Wouldn't people be able to research and invent everything that was invented before?

And if not, why not?

What does Battletech canon say about that?

Consider this: The concerte the romans used in their ports we just recently managed to replacete (as in years, or decade ago). Theirs can withhold the ocean for 2000 years, ours 100 years.

We still don't know what "greek fire", which was used 1400 years ago, is made out of.


Frabby

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #4 on: 28 May 2017, 14:58:10 »
I think Iron Mongoose has it right: Many worlds were bombed into a literal stone age in the Succession Wars and then exploited and neglected for decades. In the Davion Outback it was so bad that the Vagabond School project was initiated and well received (though it was not nearly enough to effectively combat illiteracy). Check the Sarna article.

Generally, the impression was given as of 3025 that any world farther than 500 Light-years from Terra was the equivalent of a third world country today, even those nominally under control of a Great House. Exceptions existed, but by and large the lostech-ravaged and poorly educated "periphery" border ran right through the middle of the Successor States' expanse.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2017, 15:01:15 by Frabby »
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NeonKnight

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #5 on: 28 May 2017, 17:05:47 »
What is the state of scientific knowledge within the Inner Sphere?

Is there knowledge of basic sciene, like Physics, Chemistry, Biology?

Do children learn science at school?

Do people study science at academies?

And if they do, do people research in their scientific fields?

Do people invent?

Wouldn't people be able to research and invent everything that was invented before?

And if not, why not?

What does Battletech canon say about that?

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #6 on: 28 May 2017, 18:14:48 »
We don't have the infrastructure to produce some things were theoretically do understand; like Saturn V rockets and FW190 Carburetors.
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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #7 on: 28 May 2017, 18:42:35 »
We don't have the infrastructure to produce some things were theoretically do understand; like Saturn V rockets and FW190 Carburetors.
Including the manufacturing of large battleship guns/armor.

It just shows how fast infrastructure and skill/knowledge sets can be lost.
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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #8 on: 28 May 2017, 22:29:19 »
We don't have the infrastructure to produce some things were theoretically do understand; like Saturn V rockets and FW190 Carburetors.

IIRC at least in the United States we no longer have the manufacturing capacity to build civilian nuclear reactor containment vessels.

One thing in the Battletech universe you're never going to see is some huge innovation that simply allows one side to roll over the other until the other side steals the technology (as happened with battlemechs).

At the very least you'd never see that in the interests of game  balance.

Kidd

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2017, 00:29:30 »
The indirect question I sense is "Was it really so difficult to recover Star League technology?"

Now, we all know that it happened the way it happened because that's how the game went, but let's put it this way, it's not entirely implausible.

There are 2 dimensions to the question: 1) how hard is it to develop technology, and 2) how advanced is the technology being recovered. A 3rd issue to address is 3) what other factors were hindering R&D. Short answer ; very hard, very advanced, and several factors.

This question is best answered in the order 2-1-3.

2) Star League tech was as stunning as any sci-fi tech can be. We're talking terraforming (requiring a Godlike understanding of ecology at all levels), teleportation (practically), near-Frankensteinian medical science, seemingly limitless energy generation, and an epic technology miniaturisation all around. To attain these highs some truly paradigm-changing breakthroughs must have occurred, on the level of discovering radiation and penicillin. Just to achieve those breakthroughs (which IRL we haven't) would take the work of decades if not centuries. Sid Meier Civilisation tech trees? they are real.

1) It took humans centuries to go from bows to firearms, and currently we ourselves are reaching diminishing returns in some technologies, e.g. data storage and nuclear power (AFAIK). And even if there are examples lying around to reverse-engineer, if the understanding is not there it's not that simple: give an aborigine savage (to use a somewhat non-PC archaic term) a machine, he will try his best to replicate it, and come up with nothing better than a cargo cult. Now think: we are the savages in this scenario. Heck, land an F-22 Raptor in a poor African country, I bet they would not be able to reverse-engineer it by themselves for the best part of a century!

Another RL example: Russia is giving up on building aircraft carriers because the technological know-how no longer exists within the nation... even with a working example and all the prior knowledge of nuclear propulsion, shipbuilding, naval aviation, etc. available. Once again, Sid Meier Civilisation tech trees? they are real.

3) And that's Russia in peacetime. Remember, since the fall of the Star League its all centuries of warfare, and of the really nasty kind with whole planets (cities for us) wiped out with nuclear weapons, and nations fighting tooth and nail for a kind of survival, and most importantly production and R&D facilities being actively targeted for elimination. And on that note, there exists a powerful, ubiquitous, secret organisation (ComStar) deliberately aborting technological breakthroughs in their infancy by any means necessary... and not only were their actions not found out, they had outposts on every planet by default, and you absolutely could not piss them off.

All in all, 1 of the best examples is nuclear proliferation. Say you have The Bomb in your backyard. You might even have a random half of the pages of a nuclear engineering textbook and a nerd buddy with a (self-taught Internet distance learning) diploma in mechanical engineering to help you out. Try developing and building an ICBM, while fighting off your neighbours who actively mount incursions to steal or destroy your Bomb, your textbook, or your nerd scientist pal. And remember - the Phone Company is also your enemy, and you don't know it!

Far-fetched? YMMV. It sounds right to me.

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #10 on: 29 May 2017, 01:30:57 »
  When the Roman Empire collapsed a lot of technology was lost not because people forget how to build things, but because the complex systems of exchange that made those things viable ceased to exist.  Without going into too much detail here I would recommend "The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization" by Bryan Ward-Perkins. 

  The same is even more true today.  If for example you broke down the international trade networks you would have a noticeable decline in the living standards and technology without a bomb being dropped or factory being destroyed.  Even in the US things like modern electronics and advanced machinery would be become impractical to reproduce and people would have to resort to more expensive and cruder local alternatives.  Many modern technologies require massive economies of scale involving billions of people to be feasible.

  In Battletech all interstellar exchange is dependent on the jumpfleet.  I could easily see a prolonged war not only decimating this fleet but also redirecting it into warfare and taking ships out of the economy.  Without the economies of scale needed to make certain technologies viable they fall out of production in favor of cruder alternatives.  Within a few generations aside from a few academics no one is left living who has any practical experience working with these technologies.

  If say in some later date jumpships become more numerous and you are considering starting up a lost industry you are going to have your work cut out for consulting Professors and archives trying to recreate the lost technology.  A lot goes into the practicalities of manufacturing an item some of which may not be recorded and some of which may have been lost. 
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Dayton3

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #11 on: 29 May 2017, 08:25:37 »
The indirect question I sense is "Was it really so difficult to recover Star League technology?"

Now, we all know that it happened the way it happened because that's how the game went, but let's put it this way, it's not entirely implausible.

There are 2 dimensions to the question: 1) how hard is it to develop technology, and 2) how advanced is the technology being recovered. A 3rd issue to address is 3) what other factors were hindering R&D. Short answer ; very hard, very advanced, and several factors.

This question is best answered in the order 2-1-3.

2) Star League tech was as stunning as any sci-fi tech can be. We're talking terraforming (requiring a Godlike understanding of ecology at all levels), teleportation (practically), near-Frankensteinian medical science, seemingly limitless energy generation, and an epic technology miniaturisation all around. To attain these highs some truly paradigm-changing breakthroughs must have occurred, on the level of discovering radiation and penicillin. Just to achieve those breakthroughs (which IRL we haven't) would take the work of decades if not centuries. Sid Meier Civilisation tech trees? they are real..

teleportation (practically)??   what are you referring to?

Frabby

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #12 on: 29 May 2017, 08:45:24 »
teleportation (practically)??   what are you referring to?
KF jump technology, I guess.
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haesslich

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #13 on: 29 May 2017, 08:51:36 »
teleportation (practically)??   what are you referring to?

Jumping and HPG physics are effectively teleportation. The SL developed and refined it to a very high level, and they were able to terraform environments in less then millennia, which is a hell of a trick.

solmanian

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #14 on: 29 May 2017, 09:09:44 »
Scientific knowledge, even in the succession wars and age of war, is still way ahead than modern knowledge, this isn't WH40K. What it does share with WH40K is the planets can be sorted by three base categories:
1. Barely habitable Planets with tiny populations and subsistence existence, and no real education system.
2. Specialized planets that either produce or consume resources; mining worlds and factory worlds. Education tends to be also specialized to the needs of the planet, often subsidized by local corporation training the next generation of employees. A third kind of specialized world is the breadbasket world, which is the most likely to reach the next level:
3. "Golden world" (or hive planet, but less extreme). When a world is highly habitable, self sustaining with abundance resources, it'll inevitably (barring WMD deployment) become a golden world, with billions of residents, broad industrial base and rich education system.

As for the other part of the OP topic - Science involve making a lot of mistakes, until something works. If you're not trying to find your own solution, but replicate another's answer, that might means also making the same mistakes he made along the way. Anyone who was part of large scale development project, knows that half the job is adapting the stuff that already works to the new stuff you're trying to incorporate...

Also, it's not that the IS is incapable of producing clan-grade equipment, they just have much lower standards... IS battlemech manufacturers are focused on profit-margins, that means building machines that work adequately, but also with components built to "fail" even if they don't see combat, and require a steady supply of replacement parts (because that's where the real money is).
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Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Frederick Steiner

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #15 on: 29 May 2017, 12:53:50 »
The background of my question:

I'm trying to figure out the kind of setting Battletech takes place in.

I got my impression of the Battletech setting from the first 60 novels, which I read when I was much younger. I do believe that I might have suffered from a kind of selective awareness and the novels imprinted a highly idealized picture onto me - especially as most if not all of the novels are dealing with higher up decision makers and you do not really see much of the more mundane world.

My impression of Battletech was that of a moderately advanced science fiction setting with a somewhat advanced society. No Star Wars-esque marvelleous technology but no bombed into the stone age backwaterness either.

The more I'm reading and thinking about Battletech these days, the more I'm getting the impression that the target setting is supposed to be more feral and dystopian than I ever imagined.

It's kind of difficult for me to get these pictures to match, to combine these impressions.

Then I'm trying to think along lines of natural progression.

I do think that where there's intelligence, where there is a functioning educational system, there is no limit to what will happen to improve technology (especially during wartime). I cannot simply believe that a society can use and maintain personal computers, holographic video and interstellar travel, but will not be able to produce (or produce a machine to produce) a, say, target seeking microprocessor.

Ruger

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #16 on: 29 May 2017, 13:55:49 »
I'm trying to figure out the kind of setting Battletech takes place in.

To be honest, it's changed over time...back when the game first came out, there were no 'Mech manufacturers, and all the "factories" were actually more akin to spare parts warehouses, constantly being fought over to keep centuries old machines functioning...hence the phrase: "Life is cheap. BattleMechs aren't."

Needless to say, the developers realized that if the game was going to continue and grow, this kind of setting needed to be able to do so as well...therefore, it was altered. It became such that there was manufacturing, even of 'Mechs and JumpShips, but barely at a rate that kept up with normal losses during the Third Succession War. Advancement was limited both due to limits on communication between scientists, but also because that self-same communication was being handled through an agency that was actually working against the powers that be in the Inner Sphere to keep the tech base low. That agency also would kidnap select scientists or covertly destroy research made by the nations of the Inner Sphere to keep them relatively low tech. This agency was, of course, Comstar.

But this only lasted so long as well, and discoveries were made that allowed some of the old Star League tech and manufacturing capabilities to be restored, which started a domino effect similar to the Industrial Revolution, in which one discovery or invention led to another led to another led to another. And this was needed as the Fourth Succession War and the War of 3039 presented warfare on a scale not seen in the Inner Sphere in over a century. Which was fortunate because in 3049, the Clans arrived, again changing the nature of warfare in the Inner Sphere. The Clans drove even more advancement in the Inner Sphere, in some ways superior to that of the Star League, and eventually even WarShip manufacturing became possible again.

But human nature being what it is, certain parts of humanity worked to control and/or destroy the rest, and the WoB Jihad and the Wars of Reaving took place, obliterating much of what had been gained, but not quite on the scale that occurred during the First and Second Succession Wars. This left some of what had been gained still functional, and for a time brought a relatively peaceful time to the Inner Sphere (in comparison to what had just occurred in the previous 75 years), although even then, there were still border skirmishes and wars.

As the time approached 3150, new factions formed, or took control of what already existed...factions that felt they have the right to rule or destroy what others have, and a new spectre of war and destruction has again descended upon the Inner Sphere...

Edit: Or to answer your original question more succinctly, when the game first came out, there was little to no real scientific knowledge at all. What was kept and maintained was done basically by rote (ie, the fixed things the way they had been taught, and hardly any, if any at all, new advances were being made). Then the game was changed such that, yes, they did fully understand tech and science at least to the late 20th century level or into a 21st century understanding (as the 21st century was seen by those in the 1980's), and then change again so that new things, whether they be in weapons, defenses or other fields of endeavor, were being made at a decent rate.

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« Last Edit: 29 May 2017, 14:02:06 by Ruger »
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Death by Lasers

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #17 on: 29 May 2017, 14:28:06 »
  Battletech is certainly dystopian but how apocalyptic the setting has changed pretty early in its development.  Some of the earliest Battletech materials suggested that all mechs were cobbled together from salvage and that the ability to make new components for battlemechs was lost.  It was a very Mad Max like universe.  Then the house books came around and things became slightly less dystopean.  Mech salvage yards like Hesperus became mech factories.

  If I were to summarize I would say the Inner Sphere is a high tech civilization that was once far higher tech and far more prosperous civilization.  They are, at least on some worlds, capable of producing technology far in excess of our own but which pale in comparison to the technologies of yesteryear.  The Foundation Series by Isaac Asimov gives a good parallel.  In that humanity has fallen from the high technological levels of the Empire but are still capable of making interstellar warships.

  The issue with imagining a high-tech civilization in decline is tricky because industrial civilization has only been around for 200 years.  Also the high-tech industrial civilization we know and love today capable of producing micro-processors and supersonic jets has only been around for scarcely 50 years.  Civilizations have declined in the past but high-tech industrial civilization is only in its infancy.

  If say we went into a prolonged world war or series of global conflicts, ones that lasted centuries and balkanized the trade routes and ruined economies we would have a certain ****** of technology.  Even academic research will be hurt as scientists and engineers will no longer be able to share knowledge with collaborate with others across the globe.  Economies would be hurt has economic growth would be sidelined for military production and global supply chains become local supply chains. 

  As for Battletech not being able to make a "target seeking mircorprocessor" I guess you are refering to Arrow IV missiles being lostech or the game weapons ranges.  For that I would say it's all a conceit of the universe and not reflective of the technological level.  Obviously if you are making battlemechs and jumpships, even primitive ones, you should be able to make at least basic targeting systems.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #18 on: 29 May 2017, 15:06:20 »
The background of my question:

I'm trying to figure out the kind of setting Battletech takes place in....

I believe that your problem stems from the various regimes of Powers That Be can't pick one kind of setting and stick to it.

In my own very partisan opinion, BattleTech is best when it is near where it began: "Game of Thrones in Space" (to put it in a modern pop culture vernacular).  However this kind of a setting was abandoned years decades ago, way back in 1989.  BattleTech has been at various points through the years:

A setting where former cold war superpowers team up in an existential conflict of civilizations against alien Clan invaders. (the Renaissance and Clan Invasion eras)

A setting where the conflict of civilizations is shelved in favor of introducing a more "modern" take on futuristic sci fi mecha combat.  Namely, BattleTech looks more like Call of Duty than limited, "chivalric" warfare (the Civil War era)

That setting in turn was abandoned for a new one where there's one uber powerful bad guy that wants to destroy the entire (populated) universe, and comes semi-close to pulling it off except all the former enemies unite into a team of superfriends to stop armageddon (the comic-book movie age of BattleTech we call the Jihad)

The current setting, the Dark Age, imo comes full circle and returns us to Game of Thrones in Space, albeit the amazing toys introduced since 1989 are still game-legal.

The next setting, ilClan, we don't know much about.  We'll see what it does for, or to, the setting when it is published.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2017, 15:27:45 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #19 on: 29 May 2017, 15:13:05 »
Look at it this way.  What if today's world fell into a centuries-long era of near constant warfare with the world losing all pre-Pearl Harbor technology?  With all centers of advanced technology, like MIT, being turned into nuclear craters, scientists being killed by rival states or simply old age, the few examples of high tech being vital to the state's survival (and being told by your scientists and engineers that in order to try to learn their secrets they would have to be taken offline for months and there was a high probability that the tech would be destroyed in the process-would you risk your nation's survival on the off-chance they might recover some of the tech?), attempts to recover tech being sabotaged or attacked directly, men and women who might someday discover/rediscover lost technology being drafted into the military with quite a few dying in combat or simply never being given the chance to shine, the economies crashing, resources becoming scare, etc.  What good would retaining/recovering the specs for the F-22 or M1A1 Abrams be if one was unable to build microprocessors or the jet turbines (let alone their advanced armor, etc)?

The Great Houses never lost the knowledge of how to build WarShips.  What they lost was the ability to produce  compact drives.  Sure they could have tried to recover that technology (and they did from time to time) but it would require not only the right people being assigned to the project at the right time (for the right inspiration to hit), huge amounts of resources that were needed elsewhere and time.  All the while other states (and ComStar) were doing their best to undermine their rivals' efforts.
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solmanian

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #20 on: 29 May 2017, 15:52:31 »
I see the Battletech government systems, as a necessity born of the need to maintain control of multiple star systems, all the while instaneus intersteller communication is usually not an option; you have to divest power, or everything breaks down. I don't see battletech as dystopian; sure some factions do their best to maintain total control and brainwashing of the citizenry. Take the most powerful world leaders, and realize that by battletech standards, they are at least six or seven levels below faction leaders. They're non-entities that will never receive face-time with the First prince, they'll be lucky if they'll even get to be in the same room with him in some ceremony. In the terms of their proportionate power, they'll be viewed as significant as the president would  view the leaders of a minor street gang or the local baking club, i.e. Someone's far more down the line problem (planetary governor).
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Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Dayton3

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #21 on: 29 May 2017, 16:29:56 »
I remember a quote from a citizen on an Inner Sphere world (apparently near the Federated Sun/Capellan Confederation border) that was meant to show just how great a difference there is between the leaders of the Inner Sphere (and by extension the regular BT players) and the "common man" in that same universe.

"Let the Davions worry about interstellar relations,   I'll worry about how much the price of grain is and whether the crop is going to get enough water".

Also in the novel where the Capellans retook some of the worlds lost to the Federated Suns Victor Steiner-Davion thinks to himself that "the biggest change for most residents of those worlds is they'll be celebrating a different set of national holidays".

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #22 on: 29 May 2017, 19:10:18 »
The background of my question:

I'm trying to figure out the kind of setting Battletech takes place in.

I got my impression of the Battletech setting from the first 60 novels, which I read when I was much younger. I do believe that I might have suffered from a kind of selective awareness and the novels imprinted a highly idealized picture onto me - especially as most if not all of the novels are dealing with higher up decision makers and you do not really see much of the more mundane world.

My impression of Battletech was that of a moderately advanced science fiction setting with a somewhat advanced society. No Star Wars-esque marvelleous technology but no bombed into the stone age backwaterness either.

The more I'm reading and thinking about Battletech these days, the more I'm getting the impression that the target setting is supposed to be more feral and dystopian than I ever imagined.

It's kind of difficult for me to get these pictures to match, to combine these impressions.

Then I'm trying to think along lines of natural progression.

I do think that where there's intelligence, where there is a functioning educational system, there is no limit to what will happen to improve technology (especially during wartime). I cannot simply believe that a society can use and maintain personal computers, holographic video and interstellar travel, but will not be able to produce (or produce a machine to produce) a, say, target seeking microprocessor.
Both are correct, it just depends on where you are and when.  On the major capitals and factory worlds, they have tech far in advance of anything we have today.  But out toward the Periphery (even within the Great House borders), there are worlds that look like something out of the early 20th century, if that.  There's an account in the House Davion Sourcebook (reproduced here) of the natives of the FedSuns world of Benedict fleeing in terror from a holographic ghost because they'd never heard of hologram tech (this in 3001).  There is technology in some places, but it just can't be produced in the quantity necessary (nor moved, do to lack of transportation) to bring all the worlds up to the level of the best worlds, in much the same way that there are backwoods areas of the US today with no cell phone service, public sewage, etc.  We have the tech, but it proliferates slowly, due to economic priorities and the like (to say nothing of the state of Third World countries on this same planet that we haven't provided all the modern conveniences to yet).
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Kovax

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #23 on: 30 May 2017, 09:54:25 »
The drastic change to the fundamental view of the civilization between the "Mad Max" days and the "FedCom" era creates a discrepancy between the original novels and source material and the later books.  Initially, it was pictured as being a civilization in decay, with ambitious rulers ruthlessly trying to grasp power with the last remaining scraps from the "glory days" of the Star League.  The owner of a (mostly) functional Battlemech was in a position of power, and a mere handful of battlemechs could conquer a planet.  Technology was mostly forgotten, and "mystical" ritual had taken its place in many cases.

The later picture is far less apocalyptical and dark, with some manufacturing having survived, and some gradual restoration of technology being implemented in a few select places.  Larger units and combined arms formations are described, and the individual is relegated to being just another member of a Lance.  Combat is between small units, with heraldry and individual "champions" being noted.  Skilled techs are valuable, but available.

That morphs into a technological rebirth, with massive armies and hundreds of battlemechs, companies of tanks, hundreds or thousands of armored infantry, and scores of aerospace fighters engaging in a single battle.  In essence, the battlemech has turned into just another, somewhat bigger, "infantryman", and has gone from an intricately detailed collection of body sections with rows of armor dots and critical slots on a record sheet down to a few clicks on a dial, or a few check boxes on a record sheet for multiple units.....one step away from being nameless, faceless "counters" that you simply remove when they're hit.  Everyone seems to have veteran techs, and there are universities developing new technology to levels in some specific cases even beyond what the Star League had done.

The game has gone from one step shy of an RPG, where the individual mattered, to an "army" game.  The ability for the civilization to sustain an "army", as opposed to cobbling together enough pieces to field a handful of 'Mechs, means that the background setting had to be changed.  The level of knowledge and education seems to have exploded from operating on the borderline of magic to that of a technological super-science renaissance.

My assumption about "guided" weapons is that most of them in the post-Succession Wars era ARE guided (some of the late SW and periphery weapons may not be), but they're not "smart" enough to get past the ECM, decoys, and other assorted counter-measures that are built into even the most "basic" tanks and 'Mechs.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2017, 10:04:31 by Kovax »

Iracundus

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #24 on: 30 May 2017, 10:04:00 »
Each Successor State had a few key universities and research institutions, and since Comstar had a monopoly on interstellar communications, any attempts at sharing research via the HPG system could be sabotaged, and the institutions themselves infiltrated. 

The vast majority of planets within each Successor State are of mediocre value.  Local educational institutions would likely be focused on the basics and whatever is needed to keep the planet's primary industries working.  More specialized technical knowledge is likely in the form of offworld graduates from the House's big universities.  Although investing in infrastructure and education on these worlds should in theory ultimately yield some return, the 1st Succession War showed how easy it is to destroy, and its aftermath showed how hard and long it is to rebuild.  A House investing heavily in a world to try and lift its technological and industrial level would not realize a return for many years, and this effort would draw resources away from the war effort and also be susceptible to sabotage by the House's enemies (and Comstar). 

The House Lords have far less power than we might think, because the Successor States despite some names and trappings to the contrary, are not remotely close to modern centralized nation-states.  Most of a planet's productivity never makes it off that planet or gets past the planetary ruler level. 

Kidd

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #25 on: 30 May 2017, 14:07:57 »
Ah, I see.

Well all the gentlemen here have pretty much described in relatively brief nutshells what a lot of the discussion on this board over decades have come up with. I've nothing to add other than that personally, I keep a flexible mind with regards to ranges, distances and timescales on the tabletop game. All said and done, quirks notwithstanding Battletech is truly the most fun fictional universe I've ever dabbled in, and quite unique in many ways.

P.S. I like what somewhat said about comparing small towns and minor planets. Believe it or not, though I can sit here and stream high-definition Youtube, Netflix and live sporting events from half the world away, if I drive just 1 hour down the road I'd end up in Smallville, population 100,000, living on maximum 1 Mbps broadband... the world is hardly as homogeneous as we think, and Battletech is the same - 1 of the things I like about the universe.

Captain of C-21

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #26 on: 02 September 2017, 08:34:16 »
I like to think of it as this.  You've got a few planets in each Successor State that basically were able to maintain a Star League-era standard of living and technology (Think New Avalon, Hesperus II, Marik, Luthien, etc.).  The rest of the planets are either around the early 20th century in terms of living conditions and resource capabilities, or are pre-19th century (In that the vast majority live in villages and farm with one capital city where there's a higher standard of living, because Nobles live there.

Makes a lot more sense with the setting's idea that you can hold a planet then with just a few battalions of militia, or a battalion of line troops.  Make more sense why battles are so small-scale, the prizes on most planets are concentrated in one or two cities, most of the planets are useless otherwise.

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Face it - MW:DA had, for its run, massively greater commercial success than BattleTech's ever had. Over two million click-base minis - want to guess where the number of BT minis comes in? I'd guess on the order of a few percent of that. While BT has survived for 30 years, we've never had the same number of players at any point. The pity was that unlike BT, MW:DA ended up being run by businessmen, not game fanatics.

Grassy-Gnoll

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #27 on: 04 April 2018, 15:54:21 »
This is an interesting question, and well answered by other throughout.  Just to through some thought noodles into the mix here I'd agree with most of the answers given above and add a few caveats.  Just so you know I played Battledroids then Battletech "1st ed", so I'm firmly in the 3025 time period.  At this time it' very much scraping Mech parts together, with few factories building new Mech's, and these are on core state worlds.  I looked through my House Steiner book and there are very few Mechs built (one Warhammer factory, One Locust, Stinger, Two Marauders and two or three other Mechs built) in the entire Lyran Commonwealth.  I'd guess these are heavily automated and people preyed nothing unusual beeped or flashed because nobody knew what to do if they did.  The books that came out where fun but to me they brushed over the decline of the Inner Sphere for more action and plot, concentrating on major events, like finding new tech or major discoveries that altered the Battletech world, taking it away from it original sense of a society in decline.  In the 3025 Battletech no planet was at the Star League level anymore, at best there were small area that were pail shadows of this, where things worked but nobody knew why or entirely how. It's like taking an iPhone back 100 years, you teach someone to turn it on, even how to enter the security password, there's no network and it's not even obviously a phone, but it does have a calculator app installed and you showed someone how to operate it, they'd be able to do maths for a while but they can't charge it back up even though you left them the charger, you didn't explain what it was you just told the "oh, this charges the battery" and left.   
« Last Edit: 04 April 2018, 15:56:07 by Grassy-Gnoll »

Korzon77

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #28 on: 04 April 2018, 18:29:43 »
Another factor is that in some respects, military and civilian technologies appear to be rather divergent--a world can be at a very high tech level, but isn't building battlemechs--and IMO, my thought is that might be a deliberate choice on teh part of many local governments. The First and SEcond Succession Wars would have left a *massive* cultural and emotional trauma, so not wanting to paint a target on your back would be reasonable.

Also there,s the fact that knowing basic science and the specific engineering may be two different things--the Helm Memory core was valuable not just because it had unknown knoledge, but allt hat knowledge was *in the same place*.

But equally? It was valuable because it was found at a time when a century of limited war had allowed the rebuilding of industrial and educational resources.

Finally, some technology wasn't needed for civilian use, which made it more likely to be "lost" because of limited spread. Warships were based on compact cores and large transit engines-- a common technology all over the Inner Sphere, until commercial jumpship cores transformed the market, making compact core vessels really only *useful* as warships. Even befopre the Succession wars, that technology was dying out, because most civilian yards were focusing on jumpship construction.

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Re: Lostech - do Inner Sphere scientists know basic science?
« Reply #29 on: 04 April 2018, 20:26:32 »
it is worth noting hat we have had recent examples of 'lostech' in modern times.. and with current vital tech.

in 1996  the US military started a program to modernize the W76 warheads on the Trident missiles. the warheads were getting old so for safety's sake they were going to be stripped down and rebuilt, including newer systems where possible.

but they hit a snag.. the warheads had a specific classified material, known as FOGBANK, which was vital to their operation.. but no one knew how to manufacture it anymore. the records and infrastructure for it had not been preserved when the last warheads using the material were manufactured in 1990, and no one involved in the actual creation of the material or its production infrastructure back in the 80's was still around.
so the project had to be put on hold while the material was reverse engineered from first principles. it would not be until 2007, after a decade of work, that the material was reverse engineered and production resumed.. and even then, it was subject to many delays and production bugs.

this is a technology vital to the upkeep of an active service and very closely guarded weapon. in a time when our infrastructure is otherwise intact and growing. yet it was possible for all knowledge of its nature and production to be lost in only 2-3 decades.