Author Topic: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!  (Read 161273 times)

Geont

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #780 on: 16 November 2017, 06:15:13 »
Planning to do 2nd Free Worlds Guards Company in 3025. On sarna.net it's saying that 2nd Free Worlds Guards have 9 medium companies. What is meant by medium company? I get it that it's mainly medium mechs. But how many of light/heavy mechs, not expecting any assault mechs, there can be?
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The Eagle

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #781 on: 16 November 2017, 08:16:31 »
Anywhere between half and three-quarters of your 'Mechs should be mediums.  Sprinkle some lights and fast heavies like the Ostsol, Ostroc, or Quickdraw into your medium companies and you're good.  Alternately (or perhaps additionally), stick a lightweight recon lance or a heavyweight fire or battle lance into a company here and there.  Everyone appreciates being backed up by a Warhammer from time to time!
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Geont

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #782 on: 16 November 2017, 10:23:55 »
Anywhere between half and three-quarters of your 'Mechs should be mediums.  Sprinkle some lights and fast heavies like the Ostsol, Ostroc, or Quickdraw into your medium companies and you're good.  Alternately (or perhaps additionally), stick a lightweight recon lance or a heavyweight fire or battle lance into a company here and there.  Everyone appreciates being backed up by a Warhammer from time to time!

I am working only with minis from IntroBox (25th anniversary) and AS lance packs. Recon Lance Pack will be base for the recon lance (probably discard Flea and will go with another spider), medium lance will be fire lance (2 trebuchet, dervish and must think about the last mech) well and command/battle lance will have orion and quick draw as base with 2 medium mechs (Hunchback + another one?).

EDIT:
This is what I came with:

Recon Lance
SDR-5V(622/16)
FS9-H(694/19)
VL-2T(642/19)
CDA-2A(659/16)

Fire Lance
TBT-5N(1191/27)
TBT-5N(1191/27)
DV-6M(1,146/30)
WTH-1(982/26)

Command/Battle Lance
HER-2M(910/24)
HBK-4G(1,041/28)
ON1-K(1,429/39)/ON1-V(1,298/35)
QKD-4G(1,192/30)

What do you say?
« Last Edit: 16 November 2017, 15:21:19 by Geont »
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The Eagle

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #783 on: 16 November 2017, 18:20:54 »
Well.  I'm a fan of having the speeds of all 'Mechs in a lance to match, but since you're working off of what you currently possess, I can work with that.

The two recommendations I would make would be to swap the Vuclan to a VL-5T, and the Quickdraw to a QKD-5A.  The VL-5T pulls the AC/2 for extra medium lasers, making it a really good knife-fighter.  Same with the QKD-5A, which pulls the LRM-10 for two extra medium lasers (and I think some heat sinks, but my memory is fuzzy on that one).
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Geont

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #784 on: 17 November 2017, 05:15:17 »
Well, as I will add more mechs into my collection there will transfers between companies. :D
Good recommendations, thank you.
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skiltao

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #785 on: 17 November 2017, 14:51:22 »
What is meant by medium company? I get it that it's mainly medium mechs. But how many of light/heavy mechs, not expecting any assault mechs, there can be?

The old guidelines from the original Mercenary's Handbook, and contemporary BattleForce supplements, are that a light lance weighs up to 130 tons, a medium lance up to 200 tons, a heavy lance up to 280 tons, and an assault lance is over 280 tons.

You could have a Banshee and three Spiders in your medium lance if you wanted. I think I remember Team Banzai - an ostensibly medium regiment - being split like that between light and assault 'Mechs. So your lances are fine. Splitting a medium company into a light, a medium, and a heavy lance is very traditional.

Weight classification is less clear at the company level and up, though. My impression is that it's even more conservative at the battalion and regimental level - like, maybe a "light" regiment averages about 40 tons per 'Mech, "medium" is still around 50 tons, but heavy may only be 60 and assault 70.
« Last Edit: 17 November 2017, 14:55:52 by skiltao »
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Kidd

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #786 on: 17 November 2017, 17:03:32 »
What is meant by medium company? I get it that it's mainly medium mechs. But how many of light/heavy mechs, not expecting any assault mechs, there can be?
Strategic Ops has (rather complex) rules for determining how many in a truly random fashion. But in short, for standard IS companies, the tables on pages 334 and 335 generate 12 possible permutations:

The lightest formation has 6 Lights, 4 Mediums and 2 Heavies. At max possible tonnages they would average 48 tons.

The heaviest formation has 2 Lights, 3 Mediums, 6 Heavies and 1 Assault. Max possible tonnage average: 65 tons.

By weight class, he compositions vary from 0 to 6 Lights, 3 to 12 (ie all) Mediums, 0 to 6 Heavies, and 0 to 1 Assault.

IMHO it's fun to create your own composition rather than just roll. You can't go wrong sticking to an overall average of 40-55 tons and a minimum of 50% medium-class Mechs. How i do it is first figure out how the unit fights e.g. if this medium Company is meant to fight independently, it might have a Recon Lance, a Battle Lance, and a mixed Command/Fire Lance; if it is meant to fight in a cohesive battalion and it is the designated Support Company, it might have 2 Fire Lances and a Command Lance.

GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #787 on: 17 November 2017, 22:14:36 »
So, I'm a few days late to the topic, but... regarding a teammate for the Juliano and Stalker II and so on: I would really ditch the Stalker II for an Archer 9M or a Pandarus or maybe even that new Orion. You only need a few ELRMs to force people to come out to play, at which point you want to be able to take them in a direct fight. Esp. since you've already got the AWS-11R on the same job. Honestly, the AWS-11R might be all the 'anti-camping' you need to draw foes out; nobody's keen on eating ELRMs and LGR.

Thus I would advise something like...

Juliano
Awesome 11R OR Pandarus OR ELRM-equipped Orion
AWS-9M or MR-5M or similar direct firepower hole-puncher. WHM-7D or BNC-3Mr also suffices.
Carronade

It's the kind of formation that has answers for a lot of problems. Awesome for anti-camp, MR-5M for hole punching and pulsing fast units, Carronade for Anti-Air and crit-seeking, Juliano for additional crit-seeking and general battle.


On a side note, I'm starting to realize that the Anzu may very well be our replacement for the Tempest. I've come to accept that we're not going to see sheets for the TMP-4M or TMP C, so the Anzu seems to be our 4/6/4 heavy with a ballistic main gun at this point. (The regular TMP-3M or -3G is hard pressed to compete at this point since most of its weapons are short-range, in case anyone wonders. The Anzu has enough extra range that I consider it the better Mech in 3145-era play)

truetanker

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #788 on: 18 November 2017, 14:41:25 »
What if I went with an Awesome-9Q as the " bodyguard"? Quad Peepers @ range...

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #789 on: 18 November 2017, 14:46:53 »
To me, the "bodyguard" is better off a brawler, than a juggernaut. You want to make people think "Yes, i could take that backshot on the Salamander, but then the Thunderbolt will eviscerate me" sort of thing.

So I'd be looking for short- to medium-range oomph, plus more mobility. The 9Q has minimum range issues, and is also a little slow for my preference in this role. Thuds, Anzus, Hunchbacks, even Anvils suit the role better IMHO.

Face it - three Awesome 9Qs and a Hunchback 6N - point Awesomes toward enemy, have the Hunchback loitering "just in case".
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #790 on: 18 November 2017, 19:36:13 »
This may be a vocabulary issue, because I don't think he really meant to suggest an AWS-9Q was a close combat deterrent. It is, obviously, the opposite; people want to rush it. My reply will operate on that assumption that he's really talking about long range hole punchers. And...

...I cannot endorse the idea of using the AWS-9Q in 3150-era play. 3/5/0 with range 18 is far too easy to elude. Worse, your team has no way to deter high speed 'slasher' units like the Uziel 8S (to say nothing of clantech jump + pulse laser designs). Unless you've got some battle armor teams protecting this lance, I think the AWS-9Q is the wrong answer.

Honestly, I think the AWS-9Q is a bad machine. It would be stellar in 3025 play of course. It would be strong in 3050. It would still be okay in 3055, and barely acceptable in 3058. Beyond that, I am not impressed with it. It's going to spend most of its time either being outranged, or missing shots that opponents more reliably hit.

EDIT: If you really want an Awesome in the formation, the AWS-9Ma is probably a superior choice.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #791 on: 18 November 2017, 20:03:28 »
Yeah, I was looking to stop within range of my minimums. But even I do see the point of slasher moves as a problem. Charger 1A5 might work, but it isn't a Marik build.

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #792 on: 18 November 2017, 20:46:39 »
So I must wonder what kind of accusations of being a freedom-stealing federalist I'd be if I went with the 1st FWL Guards as a unit.  They've been through a lot, they're still around in the DA, and they're sticking around the Marik Commonwealth.

The other option I'm thinking of is going as a mercenary force, but that's...always iffy.  And I get the feeling from the fluff that mercs aren't very popular, so the third option is creating a force that doesn't exist at all in the books.  It wouldn't be at all the first time - looking at the Marik Militia, there's only one listed tank regiment on Uhuru, but the fluff for it says it's one of six such regiments. 

So how about Jihad and Dark Age combat?  I can see the wide mixes of stuff and a focus on long range teamwork, is there anything really extra noteworthy or just "wait till the Juliano becomes the Main Battle Mech of the FWL?"
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #793 on: 18 November 2017, 23:09:16 »
FWL is playable without the Juliano. It's just we become significantly better with it.

Before then, its general mission role is filled poorly by the T-IT-N11M Grand Titan and T-IT-N10M Grand Titan but we have few other options. Thus we do better to run the MR-5M as our main assault, backed by AWS-9M or AWS-9Ma. The Trebaruna is fairly good too, though it needs protection to do well.

The Juliano is basically an implicit admission that a 'combat effective' range of 6 hexes on a 4/6/* unit is no longer acceptable in 3150, and that our primary Grand Titan was no longer getting the job done... nor was our Stalker. The Juliano increased the effective combat range, while also increasing damage output. While it's weak to high-speed 'slasher' units, this is not a problem since its lancemates and the Kopis Battle Armor can usually counter them in return.

Nonetheless, we can win without it. We started winning once our medium corps became more noted for its SKW-2F Shockwaves and so on instead of SHD-7M and GRF-5M. "Hurr hurr toss light gauss on it" was what was ruining us as a faction, and the developers finally got over it in TRO 3085. We didn't even need great Mechs, we just needed 'not irresponsibly stupid, unplayably bad trash that makes it clear the folks at FASA did not like us and wanted us to stop buying their product so they could focus more on the davions and steiners and clans.'

We got it. The FWL became much more fun almost overnight due to it. The Juliano is just an example of making us finally scary in some contexts, instead of just 'playable.'

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #794 on: 19 November 2017, 19:48:43 »
So I must wonder what kind of accusations of being a freedom-stealing federalist I'd be if I went with the 1st FWL Guards as a unit.  They've been through a lot, they're still around in the DA, and they're sticking around the Marik Commonwealth.

The other option I'm thinking of is going as a mercenary force, but that's...always iffy.  And I get the feeling from the fluff that mercs aren't very popular, so the third option is creating a force that doesn't exist at all in the books.  It wouldn't be at all the first time - looking at the Marik Militia, there's only one listed tank regiment on Uhuru, but the fluff for it says it's one of six such regiments. 

So how about Jihad and Dark Age combat?  I can see the wide mixes of stuff and a focus on long range teamwork, is there anything really extra noteworthy or just "wait till the Juliano becomes the Main Battle Mech of the FWL?"

The 1st Free Worlds Guards are my favorite federal unit, and the only such accusations you'll see from me are of being a patriot and a gentleman. 8)

The only FWL unit I like better over all is the Covenant Guards, and that's 100% because their paint scheme kicks ass and they're a Dark Age unit.

In terms of TRO3145, the Anzu and Carronade are both excellent, and we also get access to the sicknasty new Black Knights.  Clan units from the Sea Foxes and Spirit Cats also shore up the good units count, with excellent units like Shadow Cats, Mad Cat IIIs, Nova Cats, the collection of Mk IIs (Loki, Thor, Mad Cat), and everything else you could find on loan from a Clan Protectorate force.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #795 on: 19 November 2017, 20:22:56 »
Haha, thanks Scotty.  What's the scheme for the Covenant Guards?  I get annoyed at the number of liveries with large areas of white.

So, armor and AFVs.  The FWL uses two types of armor regiment, one heavy/assault tank that seems to be built more like a square-format reinforced battalion with 60-80 heavy and assault tanks,while much lighter regiments run into the 100-120 or more light and medium vehicles.  Is there any more information on organizing these or just 'mix and match the various number for platoon and company size until you get something doable

Keep half-thinking of playing a tank regiment in these days of 'Mechs.  Would you guys consider using Xotl's RATs just to determine homogenous lances (roll 3 times for a company, get a lance of Bulldogs, Manticores, and SRM Carriers) or roll individually (roll 12 times for a company) and ad hoc it together, for the 3/4 SW era?

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Scotty

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #796 on: 19 November 2017, 20:45:49 »
I can't answer much in terms of armor formations in the 3rd/4th SW, unfortunately.  Later in the timeline I reduce to using the typical four vehicle platoon regardless of weight, because that's easier for my boxes to transport and easier for my MUL cards to keep track of.  If it comes right down to it, I'd probably run vehicle platoons in groups based on whether or not they transport infantry.  If they do, platoons of six.  If they don't, platoons of four.

That way, I could run a platoon of six transports with the typically atypical Marik five-squad platoon, plus a sixth transport bringing along a conventional infantry platoon of some kind, making it a combined arms mechanized infantry company.

The Covenant Guards are a dark purple, with black secondary color and gold trim.


It helps a lot that purple/black/gold is a lot easier to paint than white anything.  They're the personal unit of rogue Paladin Thaddeus Marik in the immediate post-Gray Monday chaos.  As a result, after his death they're a Green unit that I like to think has a bunch of cool units with more to prove than they have to lose.
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The Eagle

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #797 on: 19 November 2017, 21:22:00 »

So, armor and AFVs.  The FWL uses two types of armor regiment, one heavy/assault tank that seems to be built more like a square-format reinforced battalion with 60-80 heavy and assault tanks,while much lighter regiments run into the 100-120 or more light and medium vehicles.  Is there any more information on organizing these or just 'mix and match the various number for platoon and company size until you get something doable

Keep half-thinking of playing a tank regiment in these days of 'Mechs.  Would you guys consider using Xotl's RATs just to determine homogenous lances (roll 3 times for a company, get a lance of Bulldogs, Manticores, and SRM Carriers) or roll individually (roll 12 times for a company) and ad hoc it together, for the 3/4 SW era?

I like to maintain homogeneous lances when it comes to armor purely in the name of realism and logistical issues.  Now this doesn't necessarily mean that each of the four tanks has to be the same mark, just the same model.  My head-canon tank unit is the 3rd Republic of Connaught Guards Armored Battalion (The Hounds), a Veteran-rated heavy tank battalion from (you guessed it!) Connaught.  They are equipped entirely with Ontos heavy tanks, but each lance is mixed.  In pre-Helm eras, Alpha Company is a close-assault company with each lance fielding three Ontos (Fusion) tanks and one Ontos (LRM) to provide long range coverage.  Bravo Company is a switch, with three LRM variants and one Fusion variant to protect the missile boats from skirmishers.  In later eras, I swap to three LGR variants backed up by one 3053 variant.

However, other armor formations make for good mixes.  Logistically, Zhukovs and Pos pair well since they share ammunition.  In canon, Galleons and Harasser (LRM)s pair well; the Galleons flush out the quarry and run interference while the Harassers pelt the targets with warheads (the Main Gauche was built specifically to pair up with the GAL-102 Galleon in a similar vein).

Something else to consider is that the official armored brigade actually consists of four battalions of tanks and two regiments of mechanized infantry.  I forget if that's in the 3025-era House book or FM:FWL, but pair that up with a 'Mech regiment and a jump infantry regiment (alternatively, a battalion of battle armor) and you've got yourself a nice little battlegroup.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #798 on: 20 November 2017, 02:03:49 »
I normally play FWLM tank platoons as six tanks across the board, regardless of role or weight class; it keeps things simpler by removing the need to ad-hoc the matter in every individual instance. As far as battlesuit transport platoons go, I usually go with five transports plus a command vehicle with a similar speed to the rest of the platoon. For example, I often pair five R10s with a Kinnol, or five Maxims with a Stygian (Armor).


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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #799 on: 20 November 2017, 15:19:21 »
Yeah, the 108-unit regiment definitely doesn't apply here.  Makes things interesting, though, a 60-80 tank regiment feels more like a typical reinforced battalion...and with the FWL's whole 'combined arms' bit, a 2 company 'Mech battalion, a 4-company heavy tank battalion, and then a light/recon company/infantry battalion seems like tremendous fun.  Not one of the major combat units, but a planetary militia maybe? 
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #800 on: 20 November 2017, 19:21:50 »
What are your thoughts on five Main Gauche IFVs+??

Similarly, what are people's thoughts on multi-squad transports? There's the obvious egg/basket issues and offloading times, but you can also boost your firepower by including more dedicated combat tanks in your platoon.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #801 on: 20 November 2017, 19:30:40 »
I love the Main Gauche IFV. Yes, it's expensive. But it's passably fast, reasonably rugged for a transport (Assuming it doesn't get immobilized on turn one again...) and has a great main gun for supporting infantry with.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #802 on: 20 November 2017, 21:50:57 »
There reasons why insist to use the Vehicle Effective rules from TacOps.  Gives more value to the tank forces.  Still, their going get crited, but they stay in game longer.
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #803 on: 22 November 2017, 05:08:57 »
I've had luck with the Main Gauche IFV on some occasions, although arguably they play somewhat like quad 'Mechs...the lack of a turret has screwed with them more than a few times.


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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #804 on: 22 November 2017, 14:37:58 »
wing . . . man . . .

And of course the BA they are transporting.
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #805 on: 22 November 2017, 19:45:48 »
the collection of Mk IIs (Loki, Thor,) (snip in editing/quoting by GespenstM) on loan from a Clan Protectorate force.

Can I get some more info on this? I'd love to see proof the FWL fields Thor IIs, but the MUL doesn't seem to agree with this statement.

I'd also like to discuss the Anzu some more. What sort of results are people getting out of it? I liked it at first, but my opinion has diminished somewhat in pitting it against the Klingons (wolf empire) where it hasn't performed well even when I bear its relatively low BV in mind. Just have trouble landing hits reliably against them.

It still performs well enough against IS-tech forces mind you, enough that I still think it's decent, but I'm no longer as enthusiastic for it as I once was, either the G60 or the J70 versions.

Scotty

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #806 on: 23 November 2017, 00:47:08 »
The Clan Protectorate is literally a Sea Fox Aimag and Spirit/Nova Cat remnants that settled on/liberated/conquered Atreus and a few other surrounding systems, so units use IS General, FWL (various), Clan General and Sea Fox units pretty much interchangeably.

Thor II <Base> is on the Sea Fox, Mercenary, and Wolf lists.
Loki Mk II <Base> is on the Sea Fox and Wolf lists.

Fluff whatever reason you want for why one shows up somewhere else.  If it was something like a Rokurokubi where the only users in appreciable number don't share a border (or even share a border with something that shares a border) with the FWL, then I'd say there aren't any.  But they're fielded in appreciable numbers not merely 'on the border', but actually within our borders, on top of being fielded by direct aggressors that were very recently on the warpath in our direction.

Officer exchange, isorla traded back and forth between Wolves and Foxes that made its way to a FWL unit, outright battlefield salvage, export; there's a dozen reasons to have one.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #807 on: 23 November 2017, 03:10:04 »
It does seem a bit odd that the MUL recognizes the other Dark Age FWL subfactions but there's no Free Worlds League (Clan Protectorate) listings.

truetanker

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #808 on: 23 November 2017, 14:02:13 »
Going through my old notes, I found my old baby tank battalion in a drawer I forgot about.

Even went as far as calling it The Tank-a-suars Wrecks Birgade.

Let's see here:

Lance A: 2x Galleon-100, 1x Miny-Peggy Harraser, 1x LRM Harraser and 1x ML Harraser
Lance B: same
Lance C: 2x TAV-1 ICE, 3x LRM-15 Hunters

TT
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Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #809 on: 24 November 2017, 00:52:32 »
Alright, that's an argument I can accept re: Thor II access.

Speaking of clan tech, it's kind of a shock fighting the clans so often lately. Got in a few games against the Klingons today (super basic stuff), and it really drove home the point that the game has changed. We're now neighbors with a faction that is as fast as Liao and hits as hard as steiner. I feel like any Mech we field or design going forward has to have an answer for "for my BV cost, can I do enough damage to a clan Mech to be worth fielding?"

There are some Mechs that I feel do not meet this criteria. The T-IT-N13M Grand Titan is chief among them.

On the other hand, SnubNose PPCs appear to be one of the few significant advantages we have against clantech.