Author Topic: How many unlisted mechs?  (Read 4181 times)

imperator

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How many unlisted mechs?
« on: 20 January 2018, 10:05:21 »
How many mechs, per house, during the 20s, 40s, and Clan invasion, where outside of the listed House Regiments?  Not Merc, but owned by powerful sub houses and well stocked local militia.  I always wanted at least a rough idea.  What are your thoughts?
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #1 on: 20 January 2018, 11:38:19 »
Oh goodie, this topic!  It's got to be one of my favorite subjects about which to argue.

To recap my views I've expressed in threads past in short form, I think there are "a lot" of mechs and mechwarriors outside the Great House armies.  It's impossible to give an exact ratio, but my gut (and my headcanon) puts it at for every 1 mech in a Great House Army, there are 3-5 more in corporate, petty lord, pirate, or merc service.

Some reasons why:

1) Mechs are prestige units.  BattleTech is centrally focused on the BattleMech in a meta sense (for example, that's why WarShips had to be knocked down several pegs) but I'd argue that's also true in an in-universe sense.  Materials as far back as MW1 talk about how a practical measure of a Noble's power was not so much the size of his fief but a count of how many Mechwarriors he had sworn to his service.  The rich and powerful may not need BattleMechs, but having them is a measure of success and the simple sociology of "Keeping up with the Joneses" ensures there's a lot of BattleMechs around in Nobles' private armies.  The same phenomenon extends to Corporate rivalries.. if Coke deploys a regiment of BattleMechs to secure their facilities (and bully their rivals) you know the Pepsi Regiment won't be far behind.

2) There's not enough mechs in a House Army to cover its Empire.  This one is the closes that comes to a mathematical argument...  Take a look at any sourcebook ever that codifies a Great House Army's mech deployment.  Notice how few worlds actually get a mech garrison compared to how many don't have any Great House mech garrison at all.  Very roughly, it's about 3 or 4 worlds for every 1 world that does get a listed mech garrison.  Now granted, those worlds may indeed have a Great Army Conventional garrison that happens to not have any mechs.  But remember point 1.  Mechs are primary, and politics are local.  If Planet X didn't get a mech garrison from the interstellar empire, it will generate its own, because in Planet X's point of view it's the most important planet of all and gosh darn it, it deserves mechs!  It's militia will have them, and sure as tootin' its petty nobles will have them. 

3) Segueing from point 2 is the Piracy argument.  Pirates have mechs.  House army mechs are not on most planets.  What's supposed to stop Mech-armed pirates on most planets, tanks and infantry?  Yeah, that's not gonna fly.  Most planets have a very practical incentive to arm up some mechs in the threat of Piracy.  Even those planets that DO rate a Great House Army mech garrison have reason for indiginous mech forces because of the threat of Piracy... the House Mech garrison is more focused on the enemy House Mech forces a jump or two away than ensuring Pirates are prevented from looting the planet's megamarts or making off with slaves from the planet's remote communities.

4) The TRO Treadmill argument.  The necessity of publishing TRO after TRO is completely meta, with any possible in-universe explanation is contrived.  However, the meta fact that there are a steady stream of TRO after TROs means that there's a flurry of mech production going on in the 31st century... there has to be or else there wouldn't be new mech classes (and new mech variants) to discuss in said TROs. We don't know numbers of individual mech classes or variants, but we *do* have a basement on the number of classes/variants... and that number is those presented in the TROs.  And that's only the minimum number, as there can always be more canonical classes/variants added/retconned in at a date after the TRO is published! Couple that number with another rarity of a known number: the size of the mech fleets deployed for battle by the various Great House Armies.  With all these new (kinds of) mechs coming into service, without the House Army numbers blooming, you come up with several explanations.
 4a) House Army numbers don't explode given the massive influx of mechs because they're getting destroyed at a comparable rate!  This doesn't work because of at least two reasons.  One, aside from the Jihad we just don't see all 5 Great House Armies engaged in massive warfare that gives opportunity for massive losses all at the same time.  If this were the explanation, then during the Clan Invasion or during the Civil War, certain House Armies should have bloomed but did not.  Two, mechs being knocked out of circulation wholesale does not fit with the canon of mechs being amazingly, even magically durable.  Specific mechs soldiered on throughout the devastation of the Succession Wars.. why are they getting permanently knocked out of action in the 31st century?
 4b) House Army numbers don't explode given the massive influx of mechs because all those new mechs and variants in the TROs are only produced in tiny numbers and so the numbers aren't thrown off!  Possible, but I don't think anyone likes that idea.  Besides, if that were true, we'd have to be seeing descriptions of House Army forces that largely don't include all the wiz new munchkinmechs ;)
 4c) The House Army numbers don't explode given the massive influx of mechs because they grow their reserve stockpiles/boneyards just as fast! IMO the best argument of the lot, but still IMO invalid.  Going back partially to points 1 and 4a... an old/obsolete mech still has too many practical uses to just throw away into some warehouse or Space Davis-Monthan.  Sure, there are obviously some stockpiles due to logistical necessity, but do they explain a difference between demonstrated House Army growth numbers and what growth would probably be expected by all the new mechs being added to existing mechs?  Impossible to prove without numbers, but my gut tells me the answer is "No".

On the other hand, there IS a very handy and simple explanation for why the House Army numbers don't explode given the explosion in availability of new mechs:  there are other destinations besides the House Armies for the new production and/or the old mechs the new production is displacing.  The TRO Treadmill argument just on its own says that Occam's Razor says that there must be lots of mechs outside the hands of the five Great House Armies.

5) The mercs argument.  Lots of sources covering mercenaries stress that there are many, many, many more mercs out there than the ones given writeups in that book.  Most of those mercs are small fry/company sized, but they're out there.  This alone is definitive, explicit proof that at least there are "a lot" of mechs outside canonical mention by way of the Merc Trade. 

Dmon

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #2 on: 20 January 2018, 13:05:05 »
I would say the average has got to be at least a Company per planet. Everything from the "knights" of the MechWarrior families we hear so much about but actually see very little of in most of the sourcebooks up to the Grand Dukes who might have one or two private regiments at their disposal. The noble families of the Inner Sphere will likely match if not exceed the great houses, the main difference being a matter of organisational level.

Azakael

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #3 on: 20 January 2018, 14:39:57 »
if Coke deploys a regiment of BattleMechs to secure their facilities (and bully their rivals) you know the Pepsi Regiment won't be far behind.

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Leftovernoodles

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #4 on: 20 January 2018, 17:24:21 »
I use the Mech are like horses analogy.  One part of costs of owning a mech is the machine itself.   The other cost are the bays, technicians, supply chain, and other infrastructure that enables a mech to be fielded engagement after engagement.   The other dimension f this is that Mechs are necessary prestige objects for any nobles to posses.  In that if you cannot afford to maintain a Mech and fulfill your martial duty then you are not really a noble.  So the number of Mechs on any planet would be at minimum the number of Noble houses on a given planet.

So how many Nobles per planet?   To be a sustainable social class there needs there needs to be at least several hundred families in order to limit social mobility to the point where being a member of a hereditary Noble house has meaningful.   Nobility means very little if any Nuvo Rich person can buy their way in or conversely if poverty can force you out.  I'd suggest that any planet that can sustain a peerage system has at least 300 noble family, each owning at least a single mech.

Piloting a Mech in combat can be risky business.  Take part in more than 2-3 engagement and the odds of your Mechs head getting blown off are quite high.  Better to higher a small posse of retainer, knight or mech warriors to take that risk for you, while you and your heir are safely tucked away in the rear lines.  Your retainers can take advantage of your supply chain and support personal so they don't need to be nearly as wealthy as their patron.  Average retinues would probably be on the order of 3-4 Mechwarriors given a lance being a standard.  Which would put the total number of Mech on any worth while planet to be at about ~1000.

This makes Mechs rare not wholly because they are hard to produce, but also because the demand for them is so high and that the nobility and governments have priority in getting access to new stock (in order to replace losses) that it become probability expensive for a non-connected rich person to get access to one.   The size of the great house armies is driven less by mech availability than from more mundane logistical and financial considerations.   

The power of a great house army doesn't come from its size, but its professionalism and their ability to project power.  A single planet might have more mechs then an entire great house but a house can mobilize every single mech under its command while the Feudal nature of Inner Sphere government would greatly curtail the forces available to a planetary leader, and that planets ability to concentrate their forces to repel invaders.

guardiandashi

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #5 on: 20 January 2018, 18:18:01 »
I use the Mech are like horses analogy.  One part of costs of owning a mech is the machine itself.   The other cost are the bays, technicians, supply chain, and other infrastructure that enables a mech to be fielded engagement after engagement.   The other dimension f this is that Mechs are necessary prestige objects for any nobles to posses.  In that if you cannot afford to maintain a Mech and fulfill your martial duty then you are not really a noble.  So the number of Mechs on any planet would be at minimum the number of Noble houses on a given planet.

So how many Nobles per planet?   To be a sustainable social class there needs there needs to be at least several hundred families in order to limit social mobility to the point where being a member of a hereditary Noble house has meaningful.   Nobility means very little if any Nuvo Rich person can buy their way in or conversely if poverty can force you out.  I'd suggest that any planet that can sustain a peerage system has at least 300 noble family, each owning at least a single mech.

Piloting a Mech in combat can be risky business.  Take part in more than 2-3 engagement and the odds of your Mechs head getting blown off are quite high.  Better to higher a small posse of retainer, knight or mech warriors to take that risk for you, while you and your heir are safely tucked away in the rear lines.  Your retainers can take advantage of your supply chain and support personal so they don't need to be nearly as wealthy as their patron.  Average retinues would probably be on the order of 3-4 Mechwarriors given a lance being a standard.  Which would put the total number of Mech on any worth while planet to be at about ~1000.

This makes Mechs rare not wholly because they are hard to produce, but also because the demand for them is so high and that the nobility and governments have priority in getting access to new stock (in order to replace losses) that it become probability expensive for a non-connected rich person to get access to one.   The size of the great house armies is driven less by mech availability than from more mundane logistical and financial considerations.   

The power of a great house army doesn't come from its size, but its professionalism and their ability to project power.  A single planet might have more mechs then an entire great house but a house can mobilize every single mech under its command while the Feudal nature of Inner Sphere government would greatly curtail the forces available to a planetary leader, and that planets ability to concentrate their forces to repel invaders.
I agree with some of this however I would say that the numbers are a lot lower than leftovernoodles is implying.
with that said,  IMO the numbers fluxuate, but the "importance" of the planet is a huge consideration

if we consider the various "levels" and equate them to approximate unit sizes that would likely give us "some insight" to the likely numbers involved.

when we look at the title trait (from ATOW pg 126) we get:
knight bachelor  (non inheritable)
knight Banneret (non inheritable)
Baronet
Baron
Viscount
count/earl
Marquis
duke
Grand duke
prime minister
Sovereign
now IMO the knights are typically not going to own more than 1-2 mechs at most, with the provision that its possible that the family might have more depending on service history, luck etc.
a baronet to a baron is typically going to have or have access to roughly 1-2 lances of mechs
a viscount I would say roughly a company, a count/earl between a company, and a battalion with the marquis and dukes being roughly a regiment, to a few regiments (I am thinking single digits with dukes topping out at around 5-6 regiments at most. the higher ranks grand duke, prime minister and sovereign having access to personal and state armies.

with that said then you get the "value" of the planet factoring in.  some backwater no major value planet like trelwan is unlikely to have more than a baronet as the highest noble on the planet, (and even though they "own it" they might not even be there other than for visits, and spend a lot of time at the capital of the region politicking for stuff to try to increase the "value" of their planet, (or get noble'd up so that they qualify for something better.

SCC

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #6 on: 20 January 2018, 19:07:12 »
The same phenomenon extends to Corporate rivalries.. if Coke deploys a regiment of BattleMechs to secure their facilities (and bully their rivals) you know the Pepsi Regiment won't be far behind.
Would probably be more fixed defenses and infantry, possibly with some tanks, then anything else. Also only those facilities that are likely to be attacked by pirates or hostile nation states is going to have anything beyond mall cop level security, you've got to have tangible, easily portable, and easily sold assets equal in value to a 'Mech to get security 'Mechs, Coke and Pepsi don't have that. Also any facility worth that sort of security is going to cost a LOT more to build as you aren't going to be allowed to do THAT near anything someone doesn't want destroyed.

Hellraiser

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #7 on: 20 January 2018, 21:22:37 »
While I think there are a lot of mechs out there, I'm not in agreement with most of the above figures.

for every 1 mech in a Great House Army, there are 3-5 more in corporate, petty lord, pirate, or merc service.
I'm thinking this is smaller than 3-5x as many.
Using your Corporate example, Defiance, the single largest mech maker outside Terra, has only a single battalion defending the Hesperus factories (or is it regiment), either way no other corporation is likely to match that level.
If they did they wouldn't need to have those corporate security contracts for merc units.
A lot of the Corporate, Lord, Pirate forces your mentioning will be infantry/vehicles far more often than mechs.
Small merc units are many but they are also failing & forming all the time so a lot of those warriors are probably rotating through hiring halls looking for another forming unit so the # of mechs doesn't have to be some house sized force.
If I had to pick a figure I think .5 to 3 is far closer than 3-5, but that's just my 2 cents.

I would say the average has got to be at least a Company per planet....The noble families of the Inner Sphere will likely match if not exceed the great houses, the main difference being a matter of organisational level.
Average?   Company is said to be the largest any typical world has with many being none.
The FWL housebook was notable in mentioning a world who had 2 Wolverines as the only mechs on planet.
I'd say Lance is probably closer to the "average"


I agree with some of this however I would say that the numbers are a lot lower than leftovernoodles is implying.
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pensiveswetness

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #8 on: 20 January 2018, 21:33:22 »
I have unpainted Urbanmechs.
You do not know what you have unleashed.
Make sure they are painted as Canada Dry Ginger Ale bottles... please? or Put advertising on them (like the Ambulance Chaser Lawyer adverts i see on RTA bus's here in CLE)?

Leftovernoodles

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #9 on: 20 January 2018, 21:40:44 »
I am thinking single digits with dukes topping out at around 5-6 regiments at most.

For the FedSuns the Lessor Dukes are basically your planetary or system governors.  Given the decentralized nature of the state they are never going to be able to mobilize 100% of their local available military strength.  Their immediate vassals will be able to meet their specific obligations but any incremental forces in system such as secondary mechs own by the family or low level knights paid to defend the fief vs. as an obligation to their lord.  The military assets that a House Lord can command for military operation is only going to be fraction of the force available.

The other way to frame this is that the end of the 3rd succession war, as a inherent aspect of the setting, there enough military power outside of the Great Houses in the form of Merc, Pirates, local militias etc that the great houses could not possibly achieve a monopoly on the use of force within their given domains.  The house lords cannot control more than 50% and probably less that 10% of the military forces in their domains else we would be looking at a setting that was more about playing for a given house than one that promotes the concept of smaller merc units.

That 1000x Mech per planet I proposed earlier was for the worth while planets.   Probably on the most populous 10-20% of inhabited systems.  Poorer less populous systems with an absentee peerage of course would have fewer Mechs available.   But at the end of the day we're probably looking at hundred of thousands  of mechs in human space.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2018, 21:45:50 by Leftovernoodles »

iamfanboy

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #10 on: 20 January 2018, 22:15:43 »
Y'know, a lot of corporations are also listed as being led by nobles - making them fiefdoms in their own right, and making the nobles eligible for their own 'Mech forces... which are then vulnerable to being called up.

Oh goodie, this topic!  It's got to be one of my favorite subjects about which to argue.

To recap my views I've expressed in threads past in short form, I think there are "a lot" of mechs and mechwarriors outside the Great House armies.  It's impossible to give an exact ratio, but my gut (and my headcanon) puts it at for every 1 mech in a Great House Army, there are 3-5 more in corporate, petty lord, pirate, or merc service.
I... disagree.

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1) Mechs are prestige units.  BattleTech is centrally focused on the BattleMech in a meta sense (for example, that's why WarShips had to be knocked down several pegs) but I'd argue that's also true in an in-universe sense.  Materials as far back as MW1 talk about how a practical measure of a Noble's power was not so much the size of his fief but a count of how many Mechwarriors he had sworn to his service.  The rich and powerful may not need BattleMechs, but having them is a measure of success and the simple sociology of "Keeping up with the Joneses" ensures there's a lot of BattleMechs around in Nobles' private armies.  The same phenomenon extends to Corporate rivalries.. if Coke deploys a regiment of BattleMechs to secure their facilities (and bully their rivals) you know the Pepsi Regiment won't be far behind.
I think you're missing the main point of feudalism:

Power.

Just as (normal) feudal kings kept careful track of how many men their dukes had under arms, dukes made sure their earls and barons weren't stockpiling suspicious amounts of weapons and horses, earls and barons made sure their knights adhered properly to household limitations, and knights made sure the yeoman and peasants didn't have old swords or proper armor, so to did the Inner Sphere function on the theory of limiting just exactly what kind of forces your underlings had, lest they rise up and take your position... and be right in doing so, because if you're too weak to protect yourself, you're too weak to protect your underlings!

It isn't about how much materiel a given Successor State COULD manufacture in a pinch during the Succession Wars, it was about how much materiel a Lord trusted his nobles to have - balanced by their need to make sure their realm could defend itself, and without accumulating so much strength to themselves that they'd be practically inciting rebellion out of fear. But it's a balancing act ALL the Lords had to do, and so the balance held... at least until the Clans invaded.

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2) There's not enough mechs in a House Army to cover its Empire.  This one is the closes that comes to a mathematical argument...  Take a look at any sourcebook ever that codifies a Great House Army's mech deployment.  Notice how few worlds actually get a mech garrison compared to how many don't have any Great House mech garrison at all.  Very roughly, it's about 3 or 4 worlds for every 1 world that does get a listed mech garrison.  Now granted, those worlds may indeed have a Great Army Conventional garrison that happens to not have any mechs.  But remember point 1.  Mechs are primary, and politics are local.  If Planet X didn't get a mech garrison from the interstellar empire, it will generate its own, because in Planet X's point of view it's the most important planet of all and gosh darn it, it deserves mechs!  It's militia will have them, and sure as tootin' its petty nobles will have them. 
And once again, it's about what the lord lays down, and what the people accept from said lord. If Duke Sandoval wants his regiments concentrated on Galtor III, Quentin, and Bergman's Planet, poor little Count Crapeater of Sauk City has to grin, send the battalion that's nominally his, and eat the crap rolling downhill on his head.

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3) Segueing from point 2 is the Piracy argument.  Pirates have mechs.  House army mechs are not on most planets.  What's supposed to stop Mech-armed pirates on most planets, tanks and infantry?  Yeah, that's not gonna fly.  Most planets have a very practical incentive to arm up some mechs in the threat of Piracy.  Even those planets that DO rate a Great House Army mech garrison have reason for indiginous mech forces because of the threat of Piracy... the House Mech garrison is more focused on the enemy House Mech forces a jump or two away than ensuring Pirates are prevented from looting the planet's megamarts or making off with slaves from the planet's remote communities.
Why didn't feudal knights teach their peasants how to build hedgehog fences, simple spears, and basic fighting to defend themselves against bandits? The same reason that Successor Lords don't give 'Mechs out to anyone that isn't directly sworn to them: it's a short step from "Defending what's mine against bandits!" to "Defending what's mine against the lords who ain't never worked a day in their lives!"

It's about power, and making sure only certain people have it.

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4) The TRO Treadmill argument.  The necessity of publishing TRO after TRO is completely meta, with any possible in-universe explanation is contrived.  However, the meta fact that there are a steady stream of TRO after TROs means that there's a flurry of mech production going on in the 31st century... there has to be or else there wouldn't be new mech classes (and new mech variants) to discuss in said TROs. We don't know numbers of individual mech classes or variants, but we *do* have a basement on the number of classes/variants... and that number is those presented in the TROs.  And that's only the minimum number, as there can always be more canonical classes/variants added/retconned in at a date after the TRO is published! Couple that number with another rarity of a known number: the size of the mech fleets deployed for battle by the various Great House Armies.  With all these new (kinds of) mechs coming into service, without the House Army numbers blooming, you come up with several explanations.
But didn't the militaries expand? Circa 3025, the Draconis March 44 regiments; circa 3050, it had 50 - and paper strength, circa 3025ish, probably didn't have a 1:1 relationship with actual strength.

And a big part of why that's allowed comes down to the balance being disrupted. As long as the only threat to you was another Lord, and he had to do that same delicate dance with his vassals, you COULDN'T build your forces too large because the vassals might regard that as a (rightful) threat to their position and power. Once an outside threat upset that, however... the same vassals that might have banded together against you will BEG you to station more military forces on their land!

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On the other hand, there IS a very handy and simple explanation for why the House Army numbers don't explode given the explosion in availability of new mechs:  there are other destinations besides the House Armies for the new production and/or the old mechs the new production is displacing.  The TRO Treadmill argument just on its own says that Occam's Razor says that there must be lots of mechs outside the hands of the five Great House Armies.
I recently read a neat, if bare-bones, article about why the B-52 is still in service despite three attempts to replace it - and a lot of it came down to "Well, the new kit was shiny and expensive, but it didn't last."

Circa 3050-3060, it was an era of mass manufacture, with money and prestige to be made in replacing older stuff with newer stuff (or filling in on-paper strength with ACTUAL strength!) with plenty of actual expansion, but not a massive trickle-down - THAT would be going a little too far for one generation from neo-feudalism.

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5) The mercs argument.  Lots of sources covering mercenaries stress that there are many, many, many more mercs out there than the ones given writeups in that book.  Most of those mercs are small fry/company sized, but they're out there.  This alone is definitive, explicit proof that at least there are "a lot" of mechs outside canonical mention by way of the Merc Trade. 
And a lot of those writeups also stress how short-lived most of those merc units are, with destruction or reabsorption by House units being their ultimate destiny.


I understand why you make the argument you do, because from a current point of view the tiny militaries don't make sense, but if you look at it from the POV of Duke Sandoval it does. He has to make his vassals feel safe and protected while not letting them get strong enough to think they can hold out on him, and has to worry about the First Prince getting so much stronger than him that he might be replaced with a more... flexible... Duke Sandoval, that owes more to New Avalon than Sandoval.

'Mechs are power, and you don't go handing out power willy-nilly in a feudal system. Post Clans, most bets are off, but til then? The tiny militaries are perfectly logical.

imperator

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #11 on: 21 January 2018, 04:11:02 »
I like the limiting of power in vassals hands.  Maybe 2-3 mechs to 2 lancers per "standard", non critical, world with maybe 1-2 companies to bolster the 1-3 companies of House mechs on more important worlds, IE with a single manufacturing plant, mine, or other strategic resource. At most doubling the House Strength in total.  I'm thinking common lights and mediums with the occasional heavy, probably 1 in 10, or Assault.

For the non critical world more infantry and vehicles.  Would you say Scorpion/Vedette tanks/APCs/HCWC(Gray death legion source book) as there vehicle mainstay or would they also have a good number of the Saracen(and its 2 brothers), Hetzers, weapon carriers and other commoner vehicle designs? Or would the armored regiments actually be motorized or mechanized infantry?
« Last Edit: 21 January 2018, 21:22:55 by imperator »
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

SCC

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #12 on: 21 January 2018, 04:49:21 »
Y'know, a lot of corporations are also listed as being led by nobles - making them fiefdoms in their own right, and making the nobles eligible for their own 'Mech forces... which are then vulnerable to being called up.
Unless the company IS his grant fief then it doesn't matter, I could try and explain but the best example I can think of violates the rules (6, nI think, the one about politics)

iamfanboy

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #13 on: 21 January 2018, 10:49:17 »
Unless the company IS his grant fief then it doesn't matter, I could try and explain but the best example I can think of violates the rules (6, nI think, the one about politics)
We don't need to violate any rules. Going to the Succession Wars era House Davion book, for example, only ONE corporation isn't headed by a Baron at minimum - almost all of them are Counts! - and that one exception, Aldis Industries, is listed as an independent firm based on Terra that supplies the more generic tanks to whoever wants them.

Moving forward to Handbook House Davion, while it doesn't have that same predominance of nobility, about 70% of CEOs are still nobles of Count or higher, with most of the exceptions being the international corporations like General Motors or Quiksell.

And making corporations fiefdoms makes sense for neofeudal society. Part of what unraveled the old feudal society was the rise of a rich middle class and power outside noble hands (there were a LOT of causes, but that was one of them!) and binding people who have financial success to your system makes them less interested in unraveling it. Remember, it's about power, and who you share it with so they don't get grabby for power of their own.

I like the limiting of power in vassals hands.  Maybe 2-3 mechs to 2 lancers per "standard", non critical, world with maybe 1-2 companies to bolster the 1-3 companies of House mechs on more important worlds, IE with a single manufacturing plant, mine, or other strategic resource. At most doubling the House Strength in total.  I'm thinking common lights and mediums.

For the non critical world more infantry and vehicles.  Would you say Scorpion/Vedette tanks/APCs/HCWC(Gray death legion source book) as there vehicle mainstay or would they also have a good number of the Saracen(and its 2 brothers), Hetzers, weapon carriers and other commoner vehicle designs? Or would the armored regiments actually be motorized or mechanized infantry?
I think that nominally a knight has a lance, a baron has a company, a count has a battalion, a duke has at least a regiment - but of course this is subject to change, especially depending on the era.

Most worlds probably have several companies of infantry and a company of light tanks - these wouldn't be a threat to noble power (with 'mechs freely available to stompy stomp) and would take care of things that nobles wouldn't want to dirty their hands with.

I mean... this is all handwavium, my own headcanon as to why the tiny military exists and is sufficient. Nothing officially written backs it up. But it does make sense, so I like it.

Leftovernoodles

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #14 on: 21 January 2018, 10:51:10 »
Quote
Quote
5) The mercs argument.  Lots of sources covering mercenaries stress that there are many, many, many more mercs out there than the ones given writeups in that book.  Most of those mercs are small fry/company sized, but they're out there.  This alone is definitive, explicit proof that at least there are "a lot" of mechs outside canonical mention by way of the Merc Trade.
And a lot of those writeups also stress how short-lived most of those merc units are, with destruction or reabsorption by House units being their ultimate destiny.

When you think about it this makes sense.  Gaining a Title and joining a House is probably the end goals of most IS Mercs.  The financial and logistical stability is probably orders of magnitude better than the Merc life.  And the larger Merc units are basically mico-states in their own right.

Frabby

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #15 on: 21 January 2018, 10:59:02 »
New 'Mechs materialize out of thin air, as plot requires.
Where not using old Star League caches as and excuse, this is mostly handwaved away by vast heaps of salvage-quality equipment lying around that is unuseable in its current state... but can be returned to working condition at the flip of a coin.

I guess it's safe to say that for every operational 'Mech, there are at least ten others around which aren't in working condition now but could be refurbished.
Find that proverbial crate of BJ-1 left lower leg actuator control chips, and a hundred BJ-1 rise from the scrapheaps like zombies. Solaris VII does this all the time, to the point where they start BattleMech construction firms that literally hand-build customized rides.
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iamfanboy

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #16 on: 21 January 2018, 10:59:43 »
And a lot of those writeups also stress how short-lived most of those merc units are, with destruction or reabsorption by House units being their ultimate destiny.

When you think about it this makes sense.  Gaining a Title and joining a House is probably the end goals of most IS Mercs.  The financial and logistical stability is probably orders of magnitude better than the Merc life.  And the larger Merc units are basically mico-states in their own right.
[/quote]Now THAT is smart thinking. I never considered it from THAT angle - not a romantic view of the merc life, but the pragmatic; proving yourself to the new lords as a merc before actually joining them?

Kidd

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #17 on: 21 January 2018, 12:32:22 »
How many mechs, per house, during the 20s, 40s, and Clan invasion, where outside of the listed House Regiments?  Not Merc, but owned by powerful sub houses and well stocked local militia.  I always wanted at least a rough idea.  What are your thoughts?
Enough that it makes no difference. Literally, an insignificant number.

Whichever planet it may be, if it is noted that House Steiner has 1 regiment of Mechs there, which House Kurita proceeded to attack with say 1 regiment of Mechs, the number of Mechs fielded outside of the listed House units must be so low as to make no tactical difference to the attacking Kurita forces. So an additional regiment, or five, is impossible.

Scale that up whichever era you're in. For example, the battle for New (SYRTIS, edit) in the Fedcom Civil War had the 8th Syrtis Fusiliers, New Syrtis CMM, Davion Light Guard RCTs and the Vanguard Legion mercenary unit (of stated Mech regiment strength) defending the planet, and the 4th Donegal Guards, 11th Avalon Hussars and Ridgebrook CMM RCTs attacking the planet. The existence of another 12 Mechs more likely wouldn't matter as much here as in the previous scenario.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2018, 07:53:40 by Kidd »

Daryk

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #18 on: 21 January 2018, 14:45:35 »
Planets are pretty big places.  An additional regiment (or even 5) could easily be so spread out as to be as immaterial you suggest.

JPArbiter

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #19 on: 21 January 2018, 17:42:17 »
How many mechs, per house, during the 20s, 40s, and Clan invasion, where outside of the listed House Regiments?  Not Merc, but owned by powerful sub houses and well stocked local militia.  I always wanted at least a rough idea.  What are your thoughts?

as many as the plot needs at the time
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Vition2

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #20 on: 21 January 2018, 17:50:37 »
Very specifically for the immediately post-Jihad I've run some numbers based on the Objectives Series' "Other Defenses" section.  This is probably the most explicit location we actually have numbers for these, but even so, there are some pretty serious issues between some of the houses - and the Republic is specifically not included. (I'll also note that for populations, I generalized heavily based on the AToW suggestion that the average Inner Sphere world population is 3 billion, pg 372)

Capellan Confederation: ~460 lances (~17 regiments)
Draconis Combine: Between 2,450 and 8,060 lances, depending on using the per 100 million number or per billion number (~90-298 regiments)
Federated Suns: ~200 lances (~7 regiments)
Free Worlds League: ~260 lances (~9 regiments)
Lyran Alliance: ~225 lances (~8 regiments)
The Clans: ~700 stars (~46 clusters)

A note about the Federated Suns and Lyran Alliance, these two nations unfortunately have much of their militia forces actually noted in their Organizational Charts, otherwise they'd likely be on par with the Capellans. 

It should also be noted that this time period saw a lot of pulling BattleMechs from militia to reinvigorate the standing militaries, so in many cases these numbers are diminished from what would normally be seen.

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #21 on: 26 January 2018, 15:35:23 »
as many as the plot needs at the time

plot is my favorite force multiplier

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imperator

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #22 on: 26 January 2018, 19:54:56 »
plot is my favorite force multiplier

OK, how would you setup the militia of a Garden World with 2 million population spread out in an area the size of Europe?  How about a Mech Factory that produces the AC/5(200 a year and a small germanium mine (1 ton a year), but has a population of 200,000 in 3 cities?
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #23 on: 26 January 2018, 22:21:03 »
Garden World: Jump Infantry carted around by ASFs built for the purpose, LAMs, and assault 'mechs backed by artillery around the really important bits.

3 cities: Foot infantry in wheeled transports and Urbanmechs... lots of Urbanmechs

imperator

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #24 on: 27 January 2018, 02:41:40 »
Garden World: Jump Infantry carted around by ASFs built for the purpose, LAMs, and assault 'mechs backed by artillery around the really important bits.

3 cities: Foot infantry in wheeled transports and Urbanmechs... lots of Urbanmechs

Both seem to high end in the Mech and Aerospce drop unit. 

3 Cities/Low end Strategic: I could see it was about 2-3 Lances with a heavy, a couple of mediums and the rest Bug Mechs and Urbanmechs.  Only a 1 rare design in the group, max withe everything else being very, very common. But the Nobles would be considered really rich and powerful. A regiment of foot infantry, with a regiment of really common vehicle designs with (Vedettes and Scorpion Tanks, and 2-3 platoons of Saracens and Scimitars. 2-3 Heavy Weapons Carriers platoons.

Garden World / place of no interest: The paratrooper infantry battalion is in Karnovs or atmospheric cargo planes or transport VTOLs. At most a couple Battalion of HCWS or similar Light weapon Carriers, APCs, and motorized infantry.  A couple companies of Thumper Field Guns . Maybe about 3-4 Regiments total of foot rifle militia. But spread out in company size units per big town. 1 squad of sheriffs/police  as wheeled motorized infantry (Auto Rifles, Shotguns, and SMGs) per  10k population (about half of what the US has).
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

Daryk

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #25 on: 27 January 2018, 04:57:46 »
I went with ASFs because even atmospheric cargo planes are too slow on a continental scale.

Kidd

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #26 on: 27 January 2018, 07:03:56 »
OK, how would you setup the militia of a Garden World with 2 million population spread out in an area the size of Europe?  How about a Mech Factory that produces the AC/5(200 a year and a small germanium mine (1 ton a year), but has a population of 200,000 in 3 cities?
Wrote a long post that was swallowed up by the Old Ones of the Internet. So in short: some "official" BT figures would have only 15 infantrymen in a 2-mil-pop planet. Those BT figures would be about 150x less than the lowest IRL militaries. A hypothetical 2-mil-pop European country IRL would have an Armed Forces of about 5000.

Taking a sort of middle course, assuming BT armed forces are 10x smaller than IRL, said 2-mil-pop planet should have an active army of about 500, which if organised according to the typical RCT-ish ratio, might yield:

3 Mechs
9 tanks
15 infantry platoons
1 aerospace fighter

Which is in fact unrealistic, because it assumes almost no maintenance, logistic, engineer, or admin staff at all, and no "contribution" from this planet to offworld State forces. If we assume therefore that 30% of these are sent as State levies, the remaining forces on-world serving as militia would be:

2 Mechs
6 tanks
10 infantry platoons

imperator

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #27 on: 28 January 2018, 01:35:00 »
Darn that low!!!!  But it does fit the BT motif.
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

Kidd

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #28 on: 28 January 2018, 04:22:03 »
Consider Slovenia, an actual EU nation with a population of 2 million. Its active armed forces of about 7,300 regular personnel comprise:

19 tanks
8 regular motorised infantry companies
12-18 artillery pieces
Support units e.g. engineer, logistic, supply, etc
No significant fighter aircraft or naval vessels

For BT purposes assume 2 Mechs and 2 ASFs or Dropships on top of this. Then remove 1 Mech, 12 tanks, 3 companies of infantry and some artillery as the planet's contribution to Successor State armed forces.

What you have left is the planetary militia.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2018, 04:24:34 by Kidd »

imperator

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Re: How many unlisted mechs?
« Reply #29 on: 28 January 2018, 09:07:28 »
I like it.  Do you have a copy of that Article for reprint?
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

 

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