Author Topic: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.  (Read 41947 times)

Bosefius

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #30 on: 15 September 2015, 21:09:00 »
No one has crossed a line but this is a request for everyone to take a deep breath before continuing on.
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nckestrel

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #31 on: 15 September 2015, 21:09:21 »
Actually I've had players complain about the lack of any railroading at all in my campaigns. 
Me: you are in a tavern.
Players: oh right, it always starts in a tavern.
me: yes, because you always start by asking me where yall are, and I know you.  You're going to sit in this tavern waiting for something to happen, because you are too lazy to go out and find yourselves something better to do.
Players: ok, We start drinking.
Weeks of campaign time later
Players: this campaign is boring.
Me: perhaps you should leave the tavern?
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E. Icaza

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #32 on: 15 September 2015, 21:12:41 »
I've got a hard time figuring out who to agree with on this one.

On the one hand, I love the detail of character generation and how you build a backstory that determines your baseline stats for your character.

On the other, I'm a flippin' web developer with a Bachelor's in Mathematics and I look at the numbers of how to generate those statistics and they make me cry.

I don't know. But I am rattling away at possible solutions to the problem.

I'm with him, but without the degree in Mathematics.

That said, I can whip out a character for AToW pretty quickly.  The hard part is convincing others to do so once they look at how chargen works.  And as much as I love the idea of Lifepaths, I find AToW's to be seriously flawed and just go with point buy when making characters.

While AToW is a good game, it is much, much more daunting than many other games on the market IMO.

Actually I've had players complain about the lack of any railroading at all in my campaigns. 
Me: you are in a tavern.
Players: oh right, it always starts in a tavern.
me: yes, because you always start by asking me where yall are, and I know you.  You're going to sit in this tavern waiting for something to happen, because you are too lazy to go out and find yourselves something better to do.
Players: ok, We start drinking.
Weeks of campaign time later
Players: this campaign is boring.
Me: perhaps you should leave the tavern?


Congratulations!  You've just described my last SW: Edge of the Empire group.  They were supposedly a bunch of criminals but didn't want to risk stealing anything or getting in any trouble.  So, they ended up hauling cargo for the SW equivalent of peanuts, all the while complaining that they couldn't find trouble to get into...
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Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #33 on: 16 September 2015, 01:16:47 »
Yeah sorry Bosefius I know my statements can be a little intense and polarizing, I'll try and tone it down in the future.

nckestrel - It's true that some players just need guidance, but personally I find that modules tend to be too constraining. My players know going into a game that I will have a framework that they can follow if they want, but if they want to do something else entirely, then that's cool too. 

Icaza - Hey, I'm with both of you - I did state a desire for easier chargen, or at least an actual chargen program (that's not a spreadsheet, I can't operate Excel to save my soul. or what's left of it). 

VictorMorson

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #34 on: 16 September 2015, 05:06:31 »
So Pathfinder or D&D 5th is less manly of a game? Is AToW growing?  Do we see it at cons or being played at game stores?  What is wrong with better assisting game masters and players?  Spoon feeding is OK.  It should be easy to play a BattleTech RPG so the rules move to the background and the story moves to the foreground.  Fundamentally, this is the issue.  A new player or GM should easily get introduced and even continue playing AToW.  I would pay a subscription for modules that came out every month.  I do not have time to sit down and create adventures.  There is so much promise here.  I want to invest in this game and I am sure many others do as well.  Many want to make AToW more accessible and easier to play.  There seems to be resistance, it is just fine here, move along. Really?

Really this seems like the crux of the issue; a new MechWarrior RPG edition came out every few years for a while for a reason.  They'd trim some things, try to improve others.  MW 4th Edition came out many, many years ago, and it's both got dating issues (Anyone playing in the latest 3145 settings has zero support in it), a ton of optimization problems, and a lot of things that could be vastly improved.

I am not asking for the rules to be "dumbed down" but rather the focus put back more on the important matters. 

I really don't think suggesting that a 5th Edition should happen is any kind of real hate.  I think 4th is the weakest edition of MWRPG, sure, and has a TON of issues in both the way it was written and some of the actual content (or lack thereof) that previous MechWarrior books addressed better.

In fact the only issue is I have with it, at the core, is the fact that folks think it should be the last edition.  It has big problems and it's very resistant to new blood.  I certainly am not trying to flame anyone at Catalyst, because as I've said, I really think if they were to write a 5th Edition with the current writers and artists they have, it would be a massive improvement.  I certainly would pick it up; I've dug the majority of books they've put in the past 5 or 6 years in particular.

solmanian

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #35 on: 16 September 2015, 05:19:06 »
I'm not sure ER3145 counts as "zero support".
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Maelwys

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #36 on: 16 September 2015, 05:55:54 »
I'm not sure ER3145 counts as "zero support".

This definitely. The Era Report series provides Era-specific RPG details, such as modified Affiliations and Life Paths for that era (as well as detailing what ones aren't available in that era). They also provide economic details, such a price modifiers for gear, salary adjustments and currency conversions. They also provide a couple of passages on notable characters from each faction, providing basic RPG stats for those people (For instance, Trillian Steiner is listed as being a Green MechWarrior, and has a negative modifier to some social roles when dealing with Lyran nobility, but a positive modifier when dealing with Clan Wolf and the RotS).

Though I can understand your confusion if you didn't find these, because for whatever reason, this information for 3085 went into the Field Manual for 3085, rather than a separate Era Report. So it wouldn't surprise me if people saw the information in FM3085, and then were confused not to find it in FM3145.

nckestrel

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #37 on: 16 September 2015, 07:48:18 »
nckestrel - It's true that some players just need guidance, but personally I find that modules tend to be too constraining. My players know going into a game that I will have a framework that they can follow if they want, but if they want to do something else entirely, then that's cool too.   

Quote
By the way, you do know that railroading in RPGs is bad right?

There's a difference between "I prefer" and "the way you are doing it is bad".  The first response is great, the second nobody needs.
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Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #38 on: 16 September 2015, 15:23:52 »
Fair enough. In my experience though, I've found that a majority of gamers will say that railroading is bad, so it's something that I've picked up on and tend to run with. Again that's in my own personal experience. YMMV.

beachhead1985

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #39 on: 16 September 2015, 19:49:53 »
Actually I've had players complain about the lack of any railroading at all in my campaigns. 
Me: you are in a tavern.
Players: oh right, it always starts in a tavern.
me: yes, because you always start by asking me where yall are, and I know you.  You're going to sit in this tavern waiting for something to happen, because you are too lazy to go out and find yourselves something better to do.
Players: ok, We start drinking.
Weeks of campaign time later
Players: this campaign is boring.
Me: perhaps you should leave the tavern?

Have you tried throwing them in jail for a switch?

My players usually gripe about my "railroading" and I gripe back about "your actions have consequences" lol
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Lysenko

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #40 on: 17 September 2015, 14:27:44 »
Though I can understand your confusion if you didn't find these, because for whatever reason, this information for 3085 went into the Field Manual for 3085, rather than a separate Era Report. So it wouldn't surprise me if people saw the information in FM3085, and then were confused not to find it in FM3145.

~sheepishly raises hand~
That would be me. I have boht ER/FM for 3045, but I like the FM series better...so I didn't think to look in ER3145.

That said, let me throw this out there. Maybe not a complete rewrite, but a AToW 1.1. Fix the errata, maybe rewrite the chargen so it's more clear or less cluncky. Update the fiction and setting info to 3150 or, more realistically since this is at least a two year project, ilKhan era [as a targeted release for the Next Big Time Jump (tm)].

Jackmc

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #41 on: 17 September 2015, 14:54:50 »
So Pathfinder or D&D 5th is less manly of a game?

Not sure where you got that from.  I happen to like both D&D5 and PF well enough that I am currently actively playing in both. 

I however stand by my point that a lot of DM's today are used to being spoon fed stuff from an Adventure Path.  Is that bad?  Well, I would weasel out with the standard grad school answer of "It depends..." 

It doesn't force budding DM/GM's to develop their own chops and rules familiarity, which can leave them under-prepared from a more demanding system but the convenience is huge factor, especially as the gamer base ages and free time becomes a far more precious commodity.  I know I love AP's for that very reason.  I don't have the time to generate campaigns whole cloth anymore, but I do have the time  to take the basic premise of the AP and then riff on it.


-Jackmc 


Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #42 on: 17 September 2015, 15:31:18 »
~sheepishly raises hand~
That would be me. I have boht ER/FM for 3045, but I like the FM series better...so I didn't think to look in ER3145.

That said, let me throw this out there. Maybe not a complete rewrite, but a AToW 1.1. Fix the errata, maybe rewrite the chargen so it's more clear or less cluncky. Update the fiction and setting info to 3150 or, more realistically since this is at least a two year project, ilKhan era [as a targeted release for the Next Big Time Jump (tm)].

THIS I can get behind. Rerelease (with errata) and update the printing for new players, and produce a PDF pamphlet that describes all the changes for those of us that own the book already. As for updating the rules to cover more years, that would easily be done in an AToW specific splatbook, of which I personally think there needs to be more of.

solmanian

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #43 on: 17 September 2015, 17:28:41 »
There is a huge problem with trying to move the focus of ATOW from 3067. It'll nullify all the "hard" stats from the ER/ED series. Debunking 5 years worth of RP material referencing to that sourcebook.

Economic stats (i.e. the tables that determine what everything costs, and what kind of wages you're suppose to get or give) are, for simplicity sake, given as a multiplier of the ATOW stats. For example, in 3145 battlemech weapons cost 8.1 times of what they cost in 3067.

To solve that they'll have to either decide that the economic status in 3250 is identical to 3067 (unlikely) or dedicate an entire chapter just for economic charts detailing the relative cost changes of various item categories across 500+ years (which I get the feeling the ATOW haters will hate even more); unless you guys are proposing rereleasing the ER/ED (which CGL would probably be reluctant to do).

Of course the easiest solution would be a canonical AFD product called "AccountingTech" which will focus only on the economic side of Battletech, and might as well "solve" the "FASAnomics" while we're at it; YES PLEASE  ;D O0  [drool] :D.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

solmanian

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #44 on: 17 September 2015, 17:35:47 »
Of course the easiest solution would be a canonical AFD product called "AccountingTech" which will focus only on the economic side of Battletech, and might as well "solve" the "FASAnomics" while we're at it; YES PLEASE  ;D O0  [drool] :D.
Unfortunately, if I'm not mistaken CGL announced they'll stop doing those AFD/Halloween products. And anyways, no one in their right mind would won't to do it, delving into the madness of FASAnomics in an attempt to compose a sane economic model.

I should know, having trying to do just that for a couple of years, and I stopped considering myself to be in my right mind for the effort.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #45 on: 17 September 2015, 20:59:33 »
Could just be as simple as the exchange rate charts they already have in AToW. Just have a multiplier for pay and costs based on the year. It wouldn't be accurate, but it'd get the point across.

solmanian

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #46 on: 17 September 2015, 21:04:04 »
Could just be as simple as the exchange rate charts they already have in AToW. Just have a multiplier for pay and costs based on the year. It wouldn't be accurate, but it'd get the point across.
That's the point, all those charts across multiple era/products would have to be redone. And that's not gonna happen. So we'll just have to do it ourselves by referencing two or more sourcebooks, which is what the OP was complaining about...
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

doulos05

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #47 on: 17 September 2015, 22:39:10 »
Well, if we're just dealing with simple multipliers, why not make a 2 dollar (or free similar to the masterunitlist.info model) DLC that does the multipliers for you. That's not as complicated as it sounds, and what it leads to is going to masterunitprices.info, selecting your era, and then getting all the equipment price and availability tables for your era as an excel spreadshhet.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #48 on: 18 September 2015, 01:35:47 »
Actually I was thinking of something along these lines (yes the numbers are random I'm just throwing this out there as an example) -

Era                      Cost Multiplier
Star League                              x.50
Succession Wars                        x1
Clan Invasion                            x1.5 

See? Very simplistic and gets the point across. Those who want more complication can do the work themselves using this as a springboard.

I still stand behind the idea of AToW specific splatbooks for different eras, different Houses/Clans, different campaign types etc. Why put all of the AToW stuff in other books that those interested in only the RPG aren't going to buy?

For example in my current group, I have the Battletech stuff needed to play the boardgame (Total War, the Introductory Box set and a handful of older minis and standups, several FMs and TROs, and even the Solaris VII, Aerotech, and Citytech boxed sets), none of my players have any of it so they have no reason to pick any of that up, especially since they are usually broke. They're fine with picking up the RPG books themselves when they have the funds to do so, which isn't often, so they have to be choosy as to what to get, and gaming books in general, especially CGL books tend to be a bit on the steep side pricing-wise. So it's very unlikely that they will ever pick up those FMs and ERs that have AToW info, but if it were a splatbook specifically for the RPG they're playing (and will be for a while), they might. And I am sure that there are others who feel the same way.       

Maelwys

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #49 on: 18 September 2015, 05:03:54 »
Probably because RPG only products don't sell that well. They've had the same issue with faction specific stuff not selling very well, so they stuff the RPG info into products that are designed to give an overview of the era that the book is focusing on. So for instance, ER3145, which provides the RPG data, also provides an overview of the various houses and what they're doing recently, data on some of their forces, and writeups on notable personalities of that era. Not to mention technological updates.

To be honest, I'm not sure if there's really enough RPG information for each era to have their own book...

solmanian

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #50 on: 18 September 2015, 07:29:18 »
The ER are the RPG books. They are not books that "happen" to have RPG stats in them. You think a TW player cares that Trillian Steiner has +2 to negotiation skill when dealing with clan wolf? Even the combat stats are given in reference to the ATOW skill fields, not the TW rankings.

CGL has been more or less separating the RPG books from the TW books. Take the Amaris coup; a TW player would pick up the "liberation of Terra" books, while a role player looking for life modules will pick up ER2750.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #51 on: 18 September 2015, 16:11:51 »
The ER are the RPG books. They are not books that "happen" to have RPG stats in them. You think a TW player cares that Trillian Steiner has +2 to negotiation skill when dealing with clan wolf? Even the combat stats are given in reference to the ATOW skill fields, not the TW rankings.

CGL has been more or less separating the RPG books from the TW books. Take the Amaris coup; a TW player would pick up the "liberation of Terra" books, while a role player looking for life modules will pick up ER2750.

Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. I had only really gotten a chance to skim a couple of the ER books and I saw the "Era Tracks" which looked like TW scenarios, so I guess that means that they aren't actually? 

VictorMorson

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #52 on: 18 September 2015, 20:07:12 »
There is a huge problem with trying to move the focus of ATOW from 3067. It'll nullify all the "hard" stats from the ER/ED series. Debunking 5 years worth of RP material referencing to that sourcebook.

Economic stats (i.e. the tables that determine what everything costs, and what kind of wages you're suppose to get or give) are, for simplicity sake, given as a multiplier of the ATOW stats. For example, in 3145 battlemech weapons cost 8.1 times of what they cost in 3067.

To solve that they'll have to either decide that the economic status in 3250 is identical to 3067 (unlikely) or dedicate an entire chapter just for economic charts detailing the relative cost changes of various item categories across 500+ years (which I get the feeling the ATOW haters will hate even more); unless you guys are proposing rereleasing the ER/ED (which CGL would probably be reluctant to do).

Of course the easiest solution would be a canonical AFD product called "AccountingTech" which will focus only on the economic side of Battletech, and might as well "solve" the "FASAnomics" while we're at it; YES PLEASE  ;D O0  [drool] :D.

I bet they could likely take care of all the price information in just a couple pages of tables.  I don't have an issue with tables when they have a practical purpose.

Also, our group can't be the only ones that use BattleTech to play out 'mech combat and the RPG for everything else?  People keep talking how separate the systems are but it seems like a no brainer that these two systems could - and should - be compatible.

Diamondshark

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #53 on: 18 September 2015, 20:17:36 »
AToW seems near-perfectly designed to switch to TW; all the skills required for TW have a conversion system listed in AToW. While so much of the game is needlessly complex, that part is very simple, imo.
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Maelwys

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #54 on: 18 September 2015, 22:25:22 »
The ER are the RPG books. They are not books that "happen" to have RPG stats in them. You think a TW player cares that Trillian Steiner has +2 to negotiation skill when dealing with clan wolf? Even the combat stats are given in reference to the ATOW skill fields, not the TW rankings.

CGL has been more or less separating the RPG books from the TW books. Take the Amaris coup; a TW player would pick up the "liberation of Terra" books, while a role player looking for life modules will pick up ER2750.

Yeah, but they're not strictly RPG books. They do provide the stats for the personalities in ATOW terms, but the fluff is fine for anyone, not just RPG players and the tracks, IIRC are for BT players. The Era Reports do provide a lot of ATOW information, but they aren't solely ATOW products.

William J. Pennington

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #55 on: 19 September 2015, 20:43:20 »
And yes, this stuff is important on a micro scale.  If you are playing a merc unit that wants to go from the LA to FS, that's a -several month journey-, which can be off-set a number of ways.  I'm not talking "I want per-planet charts!" - not at all.  I am saying that important universe concepts should take precedence over incredibly nuts rules surrounded in walls of texts.  Previous editions of MWRPG were much cleaner.

That's not micro scale. That's campaign style supplemental rules for a wargame. a player centered PRG really doesn't need to be accounting tech for unit organization.

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"In a game that tracks your carry weight down to the kg of your underwear, not a single person will care that transit times aren't even addressed with a single paragraph in a book about running an RPG, where most of your time will be spend on dropships."  That's what this feels like.

The game has rules for managing personal equipment, because a RPG is centered on the very micro scale—and such tracking is only going to be used when its significant to the game. No one expects players or GM’s to track power consumption 24/7. But when you run a scenario where cut off players have only a handful of power resources to use over a prolonged period, then it becomes important. Your gaming time won’t be spent on dropships (well, unless you play a dropship crew.) That's "Ok..you arrive on <insert planet>"..and that's about all the time you need.  The GM moves the game date forward based on approximations of travel time. Of course, most games won’t involve planet jumping. Travel is occasional, with most game time focused in detail on the events where you arrive. Unless your campaign is recreating a campaign and an accelerated speed, with each session being an adventure in a different system or scenario—again, none of which requires detailed travel rules. The RPG system is not a wargame management system.

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I am not sure if peacetime campaigns are all that common in BattleTech.  I'm not even sure if peacetime is all that common in BattleTech.

I wasn't speaking of a peacetime campaign; I was speaking of trying to use an RPG system as some form of campaign tracking system for resources. That's not what an RPG is for, and its a tedious waste of RPG gaming time.

 
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It feels like focus that's all put in the wrong places.
 
It may not be where you want the focus, but from what I'm seeing, that focus isn't really an RPG focus.

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I've never seen an RPG need nearly 5 pages to explain the basic concepts without actually providing bits of missing info at the same time.  It's crazy.
Many games go into far greater length on damage systems, nor have you established anything is missing from it.
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Once you have people rolling modifiers like +7 as par for the course, the system forces you to just start sending TNs through the roof or expect people to win, always, at everything. 

Its the GM's responsibility to pace progression.

I will admit that scaling and progression has always worried me. It is the problem of going to a 2d6 system, but for some reason that is what players wanted. I feel those demands weren't based on the needs of an RPG, but from a needless adherence to the Battletech boardgame mechanics. As a result,  I have paid close attention to keeping XP awards, and how I allow them to be spent.  If you hand out XP too fast, player who only focus on a few combat centric skills can get TN's that make them very effective in limited combat roles, while having terribly limited skills in other areas.  If you don't force a bit of spread, players can, for example, focus only on piloting and gunnery skills that give them elite level scores in those areas, while not having the skills to meet the full challenge elite level characters should be able to face—which should be more than just rolling two combat based skills.


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You can make up TNs but making up increasingly ludicrous TNs to make the game interesting at an ever creeping attribute bonus is something that all modern systems have shyed away from hard, for a good reason.

Games quite often focus on delivering harder challenges for more skilled characters. For D&D games, you can expect opposing numbers to go up, numbers on traps get harder, Enemies get better.  If you feel it takes a ludicrous challenge to make your players work, then perhaps you need to review just what resources and XP you have been giving your characters.

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shouldn't take hours and hours to figure combat system out in an RPG.

And it doesn’t. If it is taking you hours, then maybe you need to go back and get more experience with the rules. Personal combat in ATOW goes fairly quickly.  It’s probably easier than many systems I’ve played.  Given how quickly deadly it can be (especially when you start using location rules) and how easy it is to drop people once you hit them, player group sized engagements should be very manageable.
I play SR quite a bit; if anything, ATOW resolves faster thanks to far less dice shaking and counting needed with handfuls of d6’s.
« Last Edit: 29 September 2015, 16:01:08 by William J. Pennington »

Omegawolf

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #56 on: 21 September 2015, 01:47:50 »
Just wanted to reply to William - again I find myself wanting an upvote or "like" button on these forums, thank you for that post sir.

TheOldDragoon

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #57 on: 03 October 2015, 15:30:13 »
I guess I'll balance that out by saying that I disagree - almost categorically and completely - with what the self-assured Mr. Pennington has been posting.

I have GM'd MechWarrior since the late 1980s.  Do not presume to tell my players and I that wanting to track the "beans and bullets" of our unit operations is outside the scope of the RPG.  It is, demonstrably and from the original MechWarrior 1st Edition rules, part and parcel of what the Battletech universe RPG has always been about.  Take a look at the repair rules, or the standard repair parts package available to new units in MechWarrior 1e if you doubt this to be the case.  Stories of units like the Gray Death Legion have always made supply, transport and maintenance at the very heart of what it means to be a successful mercenary unit, or a failure.  The scarcity of resources from the get-go was part of the story of being MechWarriors - even the nobles sweated losing something they could not easily replace.  For Mercenaries the danger was getting trapped into a Draconis Combine "company store" scheme and end up serving the Dragon in a spiral of inflating debt.

  For years we've calculated DropShip loads, plotted jump courses, tracked ammunition and armor patches, and it's all been part of what makes the game compelling to the players.  It's like a Traveller or Firefly game where the mission is to "keep flying" even though the odds - and credit balances -are against them.  Entire sourcebooks have repeatedly reinforced this, from the original Mercenary's Handbook to the Merc Handbook 3055, to FM:Mercenaries.  Rules refined and reworked to support precisely the kind of information Mr. Pennington states has no place in the RPG.  This material has been at the very heart of the MechWarrior stories our group has told since the Reagan Administration, and it's more than a bit disturbing to hear someone tell other players they're doing it wrong if their game includes those elements.

  There are a lot of ways to play any RPG.  MechWarrior is no different.  If you want to run a gritty "beans and bullets" campaign where the Battlestar Galactica-like scarcity of resources is part and parcel of the stories you tell, you aren't doing it wrong.  It's not unique to a wargaming campaign.  It's part of the way the original Battletech and MechWarrior rulebooks told us the original setting worked.  Parts were scarce.  BattleMechs were scarce.  DropShips and JumpShips were scarce.  Part of the challenge was balancing limited resources and persevering regardless of the slim pickings your unit had available.  That's not wrong, that's Battletech.  Play your game.  Have fun.  Don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.
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monbvol

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #58 on: 03 October 2015, 22:06:18 »
As a more moderate counterpoint though I will say that not everyone is interested in that level of specific detail and really it isn't that hard to hand wave elements of it as needed.  Indeed the very fact that we have this information in supplementary books strikes me as this is where it does belong and not really a strike against AToW itself and is evidence that if this level of detail is desired that there are places to find it.

I will concede there could be some better frameworks in AToW for handling some elements of such campaigns even when hand waving and not stressing that level of detail but in the battle of what to include in the core book without it becoming too large/expensive something does have to give and to me since I rather suspect most people don't want that level of detail and thus I will side with not including it when it can already be found in other books if it is really desired.

PurpleDragon

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Re: Desperately need a new edition of MWRPG: AToW is a weak link.
« Reply #59 on: 04 October 2015, 02:07:38 »
I agree with Omegawolf.
 
What we need is a definition of a RPG. 
 
Let me attempt such here:
 
It is a story told by the Game Master (GM) in the form of "you see...", "you hear...", "you smell...",...  Basically it uses a person's five senses (or six if you subscribe to such).  The players, having control of the main characters in the story then tell the GM what they would do based on the information given them and the data on their character sheets, within the realms of what is possible for the given RPG Setting.  This is what the RPG rules are supposed to do is to give "Guidelines" as to what should be expectedly possible within its setting. 
 
Any and all good RPGs start their rules with a statement:  "These rules are guidelines.  Use them or not as is befitting your game and the enjoyment of your group.  Feel free to modify them as according to your groups' desires."
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