BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: SCC on 25 August 2017, 20:32:09
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I'm not talking about Mercenary company owned 'Mechs here but rather the ones where people who left the SLDF with whatever 'Mech they where piloting at the time. I'm a bit unsure how the patents of Nobility that tended to be handed out at the time don't tie you to a certain realm, but hey.
So when the 1SW starts there was a certain number of privately owned 'Mechs, but as time goes I'd expect this number to decrease. Sure if you lose your 'Mech while fighting for someone they probably have to provide you with a new one if yours is lost, but there's likely times when that doesn't happen, like if the mercenary company you're fighting for is wiped out, or if you sided with Anton Marik in his revolt. And even when you (Or your heirs) do receive a new 'Mech, expect it to be lower tech and/or of a lighter weight.
And while there are likely at least SOME new 'Mechs entering private ownership, it's likely to be well below replacement rate, so how are there any still in service?
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Even when units are beaten often it's not completely unless it's a nuke, facing Clans or Jihad it's always been fluffed that MechWarriors have some sort of nobility leadership qualities so I'm guessing whatever a unit is allowed to take family Mechs are the first that are allowed to be kept every MechWarrior knows the dread of being dispossessed after all
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It wouldn't have to be completely, but good point. If you where fighting for a merc unit and your 'Mech got destroyed/lost/captured in a fight and the unit takes casualties so great it's forced to disband, do you think you're going to get a new 'Mech?
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And while there are likely at least SOME new 'Mechs entering private ownership, it's likely to be well below replacement rate, so how are there any still in service?
I think this statement no longer holds true for the era from the Helm Memory Core till just after the Jihad, when we truly saw a decreased Mech, er, population in the Inner Sphere for an extended period.
The main problem here is supply ie manufacturing, because nobility is just a label; power and money in neo-feudal BT has always concentrated in the hands of a few, and those few will have to buy Mechs to insure their continued hold on that power. So whatever the claims to the contrary, its clear that there is a significant market in private Mechs during this era. Heck, the Draconis Combine even smoothened the path to private Mech ownership in order to raise the Ghost Regiments "off the books" of the official DCMS.
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Kidd, you raise a good point, but more one that exposes a flaw in how I asked my question then anything else. While such noble families might acquire additional 'Mechs, it's not really families acquiring their first 'Mech, is it? Also under the circumstances you describe the 'Mech wouldn't really belong to the family, it would belong to the Duchy/Earldom/Barony.
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The private owners were one of the big backers of the ruling families in the quasi-fuedal system in the inner sphere.*
because they gave the Lords access to more military power, it was in the Lord's interests to keep them around. therefore they would likely be given access to favorable terms regarding salvage when they are deployed as part of the standing army or called up to fight, and if they lost their ancestral mech would likely be given higher priority to receive a new mech (whether salvage or one of the new builds).
the move away from private ownership equating to political power only occurred well after 3050 and the clans, when not only was mech production gettign back into high gear (making the private owner mechwarrior-nobles less needed) but also when many of them saw their ancestral mechs destroyed in the fighting.
*it is likely that private ownership really took off with the fall of the Star League. the Successor Lords buying loyalty from the remaining Hegemony and SLDF forces with offers of land, wealth, and political power. since most of the Nobles already in the successor states would have private forces already, this would have simultaneously given the Lords additional backing against the other nobles, as well as reduced the need to rely on the existing nobles for military support beyond the standing armies.
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glitterboy, lets say The Fox's Teeth and Sorenson's Sabres get into a fight, which The Fox's Teeth, so we're only going to consider things from their side. Now their losses are as follows:
Austin Vorster STG-3R Stinger*+
Ernst Lang [Deceased] RFL-3N Rifleman+
Paul Danton PXH-1K Phoenix Hawk*
Now a * means the 'Mech was recovered, which means the 'Mech was recovered in a repairable state, sure the left leg and right arm of Lang's Rifleman were recovered because they weren't attached to the rest of the 'Mech when it suffered that ammo explosion, but the 'Mech itself wasn't. A + means it was owned by the MechWarrior. When Vorster keeps his Stinger, and both him and Danton will resume piloting their 'Mechs when they're repaired.
Now they salvaged from the Sabre's: A RFL-3N Rifleman, a ARC-2K Archer, and a PHX-HK2 Phoenix Hawk.
The salvaged Rifleman will go to Lang's Heir, but he's(?) not present to take possession, so it's shipped off. Now just in case the replacement MechWarrior doesn't come with a ride (Which is likely as McKinnon will be reporting them as having two 'Mechs without pilots) they'll be keeping one, given that the company already has two PHX-HK2 Phoenix Hawk's they'll be keeping the Archer.
So who gets the PHX-HK2 Phoenix Hawk?
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Kidd, you raise a good point, but more one that exposes a flaw in how I asked my question then anything else. While such noble families might acquire additional 'Mechs, it's not really families acquiring their first 'Mech, is it? Also under the circumstances you describe the 'Mech wouldn't really belong to the family, it would belong to the Duchy/Earldom/Barony.
Well, YMMV, and nothing I say is worth any more than anyone else, but... I believe in the BT universe, though we might see more formalisation of the military post-Clan invasion, IMHO the neo-feudal structure of BT is still there. I think we might see a lot of the elite* "corporatising" and "deputising" their Mechs - this Banshee piloted by Laird McBean is the property of Naebcm Ltd, a private security firm contracted by the Glengarry Regiment, and it just so happens that the shareholder of Naebcm Ltd is Laird McBean...
But it doesn't even have to go to that level of obfuscation really. I believe the Successor State militaries did and still would allow nobles to pilot their own Mechs, if they own them, and assign them accordingly. Its not that far-fetched - for example, right now in at least 2 warzones there is extensive use of modified civilian vehicles, private arms and even crowd-funded weapons and equipment... in past wars US and NATO troops did buy their own equipment and yes even personal weapons! It's just a short step up to the state of the BT universe...
*I use elite rather than nobles because you would I believe see industrialists and businessmen taking up arms as well. The upper-class of many countries still have a notion of military service to state, and we will see much more of that in neo-feudal BT.
So who gets the PHX-HK2 Phoenix Hawk?
If not in reserve, the parent unit (Crucis Lancers?). The new Mechwarriors might also be bringing their own ride, so there might be more surplus.
P.S. as late as the Jihad I think there were a couple of Mechwarriors who salvaged their Mechs and/or were allowed to keep their Mechs when they retired IIRC? So firstly there’s precedent for State militaries giving away Mechs. I’d think when they are serving a unit, they would draw from the unit supply/tech pool as normal, but the real difficulty would come after when they retire. If they are not piloting it, they might sell off the Mech (there’s their retirement gratuity), gift it to a descendant going into service, or heck even lease it to their local militia – and thus the private market is fed.
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Well, YMMV, and nothing I say is worth any more than anyone else, but... I believe in the BT universe, though we might see more formalisation of the military post-Clan invasion, IMHO the neo-feudal structure of BT is still there. I think we might see a lot of the elite* "corporatising" and "deputising" their Mechs - this Banshee piloted by Laird McBean is the property of Naebcm Ltd, a private security firm contracted by the Glengarry Regiment, and it just so happens that the shareholder of Naebcm Ltd is Laird McBean...
But it doesn't even have to go to that level of obfuscation really. I believe the Successor State militaries did and still would allow nobles to pilot their own Mechs, if they own them, and assign them accordingly. Its not that far-fetched - for example, right now in at least 2 warzones there is extensive use of modified civilian vehicles, private arms and even crowd-funded weapons and equipment... in past wars US and NATO troops did buy their own equipment and yes even personal weapons! It's just a short step up to the state of the BT universe...
*I use elite rather than nobles because you would I believe see industrialists and businessmen taking up arms as well. The upper-class of many countries still have a notion of military service to state, and we will see much more of that in neo-feudal BT.
The exact details of exactly who owns the 'Mechs might not matter (But then again they might), but it's not really relevant to this discussion. How is it that you (Or your company) got possession of this 'Mech? And what happens if you lose an your employer at the time is not require to replace it? If you had an employer, that is.
If not in reserve, the parent unit (Crucis Lancers?). The new Mechwarriors might also be bringing their own ride, so there might be more surplus.
This is my point, it DOESN'T go to one of the MechWarriors.
P.S. as late as the Jihad I think there were a couple of Mechwarriors who salvaged their Mechs and/or were allowed to keep their Mechs when they retired IIRC? So firstly there’s precedent for State militaries giving away Mechs. I’d think when they are serving a unit, they would draw from the unit supply/tech pool as normal, but the real difficulty would come after when they retire. If they are not piloting it, they might sell off the Mech (there’s their retirement gratuity), gift it to a descendant going into service, or heck even lease it to their local militia – and thus the private market is fed.
I'd imagine that such situations however are NOT the norm.
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The exact details of exactly who owns the 'Mechs might not matter (But then again they might), but it's not really relevant to this discussion. How is it that you (Or your company) got possession of this 'Mech?
In the post-Helm environment? You buy it. Oh yeah I forgot where I was going at... Naebcm Ltd buys the Mech, saying "its for the militia contract", but... wink wink nudge nudge...
And what happens if you lose an your employer at the time is not require to replace it? If you had an employer, that is.
Yeah you lose it totally. That is the risk involved. So we're talking about the really well-heeled elite here who would buy and deploy a Mech... generally.
I'd imagine that such situations however are NOT the norm.
True. Far and away I’d bet the biggest market for private Mechs is the mercenary market, planetary militias, and DCMS Ghost Regiments… roughly in descending order. And expect PLENTY of skimming too... to form a tertiary market...
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A number of people will complain but the 2 black thorns novels do fit.
One guy was casheered for black market trading and other crimes but was still allowed to keep a 3050 Era marauder II along with some other mechs.
Another aspect is in the older material mechs were salvageable a lot more than in the newer rules, additionally in the 3rd succession war, they had the policy of retreating typically before their mechs were lost, rather than the all out fights to the finish that occur 90+% of the time in the battles most people fight.
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the "how did they get the mech i nthe first place" question is not as big a deal as you might think.
the inner sphere uses a quasi-feudal system.. a higher noble can grant you a title, some land, and a contract giving you a mech.
much like how new Knights obtained Title, Fiefs, and the starting gear for Knighthood during the middle ages.
and for basically the same reasons. because you supported said higher noble in some cause. because you served with distinction in a campaign. because you married into a noble house. because they decided 'hey, wouldn't it be fun to give X something?"
though i suspect "served with distinction" would be the primary one.. a soldier, piloting a state-owned mech, goes on to show extreme bravery and skill, or leads an action that was vital in the preservation or conquest of a world, and in addition to getting high honors and medals, they get a small title, some landhold, and the ownership of their mech gets transfered from the state to them (a new noble.)
imagine if the Congressional Medal of honor came with land rights and the private ownership of a Tank. basically like that.
this sort of thing happened all the time historically.. anytime a ruler conquered a new region, they'd appoint their knights who fought with them as the new nobles there, and all those Knight's sargeants, squires, and lesser sons would usually be elevated to full knight and given control of the new lands owned by the higher noble.
this was why things like the Crusades got such a following.. the chance for conquest also meant a chance for social climbing.
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I'd wager quite a few mechs on Solaris Stables and Mercenary outfits are privately owned. For example, I'd assume that Wayne Waco owned his Battlemaster.
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As stated above, it comes down to money and influence. There are examples of individuals being gifted mechs by their rulers, and examples of mech families scraping together the cash to buy their own mechs. And a noble or landed mech family would likely beg, borrow, sell cattle, sublease land, sign away mineral rights, etc to keep from being dispossessed. And these mechs stay within the family so long as the family is sworn to their local feudal lord, and their feudal lord above them. The identity of a a mechwarrior in universe is so profound that many will trade everything they own simply to keep that status.
Historically, raising and maintaining an army is expensive. The more money the sworn mechwarrior families put into their own maintenance is less of a drain on the state, and therefore is beneficial to the state from a cost standpoint.
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In the post-Helm environment? You buy it. Oh yeah I forgot where I was going at... Naebcm Ltd buys the Mech, saying "its for the militia contract", but... wink wink nudge nudge...
But first you need to get that contract, creating a Catch 22 situation. Now if you already have a 'Mech you might be able to get the contract, thus allowing you leverage the contract into buying another 'Mech to better service the contract.
Personally I'd say that in the post-Helm era 'Mechs would be provided directly to the miltia to prevent them turning up in troublesome hands sounds like a good idea.
Yeah you lose it totally. That is the risk involved. So we're talking about the really well-heeled elite here who would buy and deploy a Mech... generally.
Which means that such cases, and others, would result in a reduction in the number of personal 'Mechs.
True. Far and away I’d bet the biggest market for private Mechs is the mercenary market, planetary militias, and DCMS Ghost Regiments… roughly in descending order. And expect PLENTY of skimming too... to form a tertiary market...
I'd say that the 'Mechs that first formed the Ghost regiments came from said tertiary market, if not a quartiary market, before they entered service, but once they did, they'd be replaced by the primary, military, market.
A number of people will complain but the 2 black thorns novels do fit.
One guy was casheered for black market trading and other crimes but was still allowed to keep a 3050 Era marauder II along with some other mechs.
The only way I can understand this working is if those where his BEFORE he started on the black market.
Another aspect is in the older material mechs were salvageable a lot more than in the newer rules, additionally in the 3rd succession war, they had the policy of retreating typically before their mechs were lost, rather than the all out fights to the finish that occur 90+% of the time in the battles most people fight.
That might explain how a 'Mech remains in service better, but not how it enters service.
the "how did they get the mech i nthe first place" question is not as big a deal as you might think.
the inner sphere uses a quasi-feudal system.. a higher noble can grant you a title, some land, and a contract giving you a mech.
much like how new Knights obtained Title, Fiefs, and the starting gear for Knighthood during the middle ages.
this sort of thing happened all the time historically.. anytime a ruler conquered a new region, they'd appoint their knights who fought with them as the new nobles there, and all those Knight's sargeants, squires, and lesser sons would usually be elevated to full knight and given control of the new lands owned by the higher noble.
this was why things like the Crusades got such a following.. the chance for conquest also meant a chance for social climbing.
But such a Fief requires you to defend it and you where given the 'Mech to do it. Meaning you can't (Or at the very least, aren't supposed to) use it be seek mercenary employment or join a regiment as the type of soldier that owns your own 'Mech.
and for basically the same reasons. because you supported said higher noble in some cause. because you served with distinction in a campaign. because you married into a noble house. because they decided 'hey, wouldn't it be fun to give X something?"
though i suspect "served with distinction" would be the primary one.. a soldier, piloting a state-owned mech, goes on to show extreme bravery and skill, or leads an action that was vital in the preservation or conquest of a world, and in addition to getting high honors and medals, they get a small title, some landhold, and the ownership of their mech gets transfered from the state to them (a new noble.)
imagine if the Congressional Medal of honor came with land rights and the private ownership of a Tank. basically like that.
Both of these are more likely, although this raises the question of where did the guy who gave you the 'Mech get it? And I'd imagine that such titles are more often then not NOT hereditery.
I'd wager quite a few mechs on Solaris Stables and Mercenary outfits are privately owned. For example, I'd assume that Wayne Waco owned his Battlemaster.
I suspect that they all are, but their also long established business with connections to get 'Mechs, and powerful people (For the most part) have an interest in them getting those 'Mechs, not so for random people off the street.
As stated above, it comes down to money and influence. There are examples of individuals being gifted mechs by their rulers, and examples of mech families scraping together the cash to buy their own mechs. And a noble or landed mech family would likely beg, borrow, sell cattle, sublease land, sign away mineral rights, etc to keep from being dispossessed. And these mechs stay within the family so long as the family is sworn to their local feudal lord, and their feudal lord above them. The identity of a a mechwarrior in universe is so profound that many will trade everything they own simply to keep that status.
A noble family that was given title to support a 'Mech would have the connections to get a new one, yes. But simply having money and connections isn't enough, you would NEED that title.
Historically, raising and maintaining an army is expensive. The more money the sworn mechwarrior families put into their own maintenance is less of a drain on the state, and therefore is beneficial to the state from a cost standpoint.
True, but BT history with mercenaries is wonky, such that the long term cost saving would never materialize.
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The First Succession War was incredibly brutal. Like, you can't even imagine how much destruction there was. Across the Inner Sphere, there was widespread chaos. And in that chaos, you had huge amounts of social upheaval.
So I'm Bob Smith on planet Nowheresville V. And I'm a simple soldier in the Nowheresville V Regulars, an infantry militia that are expected to stand there and guard an intersection and direct traffic if an invasion happens. There are 5 mech regiments stationed on this planet. Then the Kuritans attack. And not only does the capital city get vaporized, but the 5 mech regiments that were stationed there get smashed to smithereens. The dracs are well on their way to conquering the planet, but then something happens offworld and they get redeployed elsewhere.
Our planet is in chaos, nobody who used to be in charge is still alive anymore. Well I just happen to be guarding this road when this perfectly good Rifleman shoots up to about 25 heat, and the pilot ejects. He gets vaporized by a medium laser before his parachute even opens (bad luck, that). By some miracle, the Rifleman's ammo doesn't cook off. The mech gets ignored for the rest of the battle. What do I do? That night, my cousin Cletus and I bring the flatbed truck and we haul that sucker back to the farm. We cover it up with a tarp, and start looking for spare parts among the wreckage. This here is our ticket to the big-time. Six months from now, I'm Baron Bob Smith, and I'm responsible for guarding my little corner of the planet.
This kind of thing would happen over, and over, and over again throughout the Succession Wars.
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Post 2SW you also have the factories still producing but the amount is not going to replace losses (hence the pace of 3SW), but do you really think the House leader or even regional leader (say Capellan March Lord) is going to let the factory sell to whoever they want? No, all that production is now the property of the state- at one level or another. So the trickle of new mechs provides replacements to the national or regional militaries under the noble lord . . . and like glitterboy said, if someone distinguished themselves then the mech could be given to them. The title WOULD be hereditary and the possession of the mech pass down through the generations.
The other method would be the Geist method . . . while piloting a mech belonging to someone else, either private owner or national military, he successfully knocked out a Battlemaster used by a raider. The mech was captured and following a mishmash of law & tradition (something like naval salvage law) he owns that mech . . . in service to his country. He never gains a title but as the one who captured the mech, it is awarded to him. It even got upgraded going into the Clan wars IIRC. This is also done in a BC story where a infantryman on a periphery world captures something . . . either PXH or similar IIRC. Not as much of the infantryman remains to be the pilot should he recover, I do not think we hear more about it in the future.
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Post 2SW you also have the factories still producing but the amount is not going to replace losses (hence the pace of 3SW), but do you really think the House leader or even regional leader (say Capellan March Lord) is going to let the factory sell to whoever they want? No, all that production is now the property of the state- at one level or another. So the trickle of new mechs provides replacements to the national or regional militaries under the noble lord . . . and like glitterboy said, if someone distinguished themselves then the mech could be given to them. The title WOULD be hereditary and the possession of the mech pass down through the generations.
The other method would be the Geist method . . . while piloting a mech belonging to someone else, either private owner or national military, he successfully knocked out a Battlemaster used by a raider. The mech was captured and following a mishmash of law & tradition (something like naval salvage law) he owns that mech . . . in service to his country. He never gains a title but as the one who captured the mech, it is awarded to him. It even got upgraded going into the Clan wars IIRC. This is also done in a BC story where a infantryman on a periphery world captures something . . . either PXH or similar IIRC. Not as much of the infantryman remains to be the pilot should he recover, I do not think we hear more about it in the future.
You are thinking of these empires like they're modern governments. They are not. The FedSuns isn't one big Space USA. It's a much weaker form of government. They can't actually stop the factories from selling to whoever they want. They don't have the manpower, they don't have the resources, they don't have the control necessary.
Feudal systems exist because the central government doesn't have the power to oversee everyone. You can't effectively rule over some planet in the outback when you're sitting on the throne on New Avalon. So you've got nobles who report to you who handle all the day to day affairs. Mudball VII is a planet of 4 million people. There are 6 barons who rule over it, each one with varying levels of power and influence. Baron Dave is the most powerful, he rules over the capital city and has the spaceport (such as it is). He controls two mech lances, and has a battalion of light vehicles. Technically Baron Dave only owns 3 of the mechs, the other 5 are independent owners who are officially "knights" of Mudball VII. Realistically these are guys who have some money and influence, and for serving the Baron they get out of paying most of their taxes. And when their idiot teenage son gets drunk and runs over a lady in his new sports car, the case quietly goes away and nobody goes to jail.
Baron Dave reports to Count Steve, who is official ruler of Mudball VII. He owns the small mech factory that churns out a dozen Jagermechs every year. Count Steve also owns two Mule dropships and a Merchant class jumpship, that provides most of the transportation between Mudball VII and the next world, Dirtclod IV. Of the 12 Jagermechs that Mudball VII produces each year, 4 of them go to Prince Davion. The other 8 are spoken for, going to various other nobles in agreements that date back a long, long time. Remember that these planets used to be independent worlds, and in many ways they still are. Prince Davion would love to get all 12 mechs every year, but he can't demand that or the nobles will rebel. Not just Count Steve, but half the nobles across the realm will revolt if the Prince tries any kind of naked power grab like that.
The independent mechwarrior is a safety net against any individual noble getting too much power. Prince Davion likes it, because it means that Count Steve doesn't have a big army at his command. Getting his guys together to launch a real campaign is like herding cats. Count Steve doesn't have the resources to launch real offensive operations, not without the support of the Prince. Count Steve likes having independent mechwarriors as well, because it means that those are mechs that aren't going to the Prince.
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The First Succession War was incredibly brutal. Like, you can't even imagine how much destruction there was. Across the Inner Sphere, there was widespread chaos. And in that chaos, you had huge amounts of social upheaval.
So I'm Bob Smith on planet Nowheresville V. And I'm a simple soldier in the Nowheresville V Regulars, an infantry militia that are expected to stand there and guard an intersection and direct traffic if an invasion happens. There are 5 mech regiments stationed on this planet. Then the Kuritans attack. And not only does the capital city get vaporized, but the 5 mech regiments that were stationed there get smashed to smithereens. The dracs are well on their way to conquering the planet, but then something happens offworld and they get redeployed elsewhere.
Our planet is in chaos, nobody who used to be in charge is still alive anymore. Well I just happen to be guarding this road when this perfectly good Rifleman shoots up to about 25 heat, and the pilot ejects. He gets vaporized by a medium laser before his parachute even opens (bad luck, that). By some miracle, the Rifleman's ammo doesn't cook off. The mech gets ignored for the rest of the battle. What do I do? That night, my cousin Cletus and I bring the flatbed truck and we haul that sucker back to the farm. We cover it up with a tarp, and start looking for spare parts among the wreckage. This here is our ticket to the big-time. Six months from now, I'm Baron Bob Smith, and I'm responsible for guarding my little corner of the planet.
This kind of thing would happen over, and over, and over again throughout the Succession Wars.
As long as the 'Mech didn't belong to the defenders I can see that working, but if it did you might be in trouble for stealing it.
The other method would be the Geist method . . . while piloting a mech belonging to someone else, either private owner or national military, he successfully knocked out a Battlemaster used by a raider. The mech was captured and following a mishmash of law & tradition (something like naval salvage law) he owns that mech . . . in service to his country. He never gains a title but as the one who captured the mech, it is awarded to him. It even got upgraded going into the Clan wars IIRC. This is also done in a BC story where a infantryman on a periphery world captures something . . . either PXH or similar IIRC. Not as much of the infantryman remains to be the pilot should he recover, I do not think we hear more about it in the future.
If it was a solo duel or something of that nature, maybe, otherwise there would be disagreement over who owned it. Realistically something like the British Prize rules would be in effect, so once a unit makes good it's losses, a percentage of the value of the 'Mechs salvaged is split among the members and their survivors.
You are thinking of these empires like they're modern governments. They are not. The FedSuns isn't one big Space USA. It's a much weaker form of government. They can't actually stop the factories from selling to whoever they want. They don't have the manpower, they don't have the resources, they don't have the control necessary.
Feudal systems exist because the central government doesn't have the power to oversee everyone. You can't effectively rule over some planet in the outback when you're sitting on the throne on New Avalon. So you've got nobles who report to you who handle all the day to day affairs. Mudball VII is a planet of 4 million people. There are 6 barons who rule over it, each one with varying levels of power and influence. Baron Dave is the most powerful, he rules over the capital city and has the spaceport (such as it is). He controls two mech lances, and has a battalion of light vehicles. Technically Baron Dave only owns 3 of the mechs, the other 5 are independent owners who are officially "knights" of Mudball VII. Realistically these are guys who have some money and influence, and for serving the Baron they get out of paying most of their taxes. And when their idiot teenage son gets drunk and runs over a lady in his new sports car, the case quietly goes away and nobody goes to jail.
Baron Dave reports to Count Steve, who is official ruler of Mudball VII. He owns the small mech factory that churns out a dozen Jagermechs every year. Count Steve also owns two Mule dropships and a Merchant class jumpship, that provides most of the transportation between Mudball VII and the next world, Dirtclod IV. Of the 12 Jagermechs that Mudball VII produces each year, 4 of them go to Prince Davion. The other 8 are spoken for, going to various other nobles in agreements that date back a long, long time. Remember that these planets used to be independent worlds, and in many ways they still are. Prince Davion would love to get all 12 mechs every year, but he can't demand that or the nobles will rebel. Not just Count Steve, but half the nobles across the realm will revolt if the Prince tries any kind of naked power grab like that.
The independent mechwarrior is a safety net against any individual noble getting too much power. Prince Davion likes it, because it means that Count Steve doesn't have a big army at his command. Getting his guys together to launch a real campaign is like herding cats. Count Steve doesn't have the resources to launch real offensive operations, not without the support of the Prince. Count Steve likes having independent mechwarriors as well, because it means that those are mechs that aren't going to the Prince.
To a point. The government probably has right of first refusal on any 'Mech produced and if large numbers end up in pirate or enemy hands the company probably experiences a change of management.
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But first you need to get that contract, creating a Catch 22 situation. Now if you already have a 'Mech you might be able to get the contract, thus allowing you leverage the contract into buying another 'Mech to better service the contract.
Personally I'd say that in the post-Helm era 'Mechs would be provided directly to the miltia to prevent them turning up in troublesome hands sounds like a good idea.
BT is a neo-feudal universe where power remained more concentrated in the hands of the few (be they nobility, industrialists or landlords) than in our world. Would it really surprise you that Laird McBean, holding this planet in fief for his liege-lord Archon Steiner, would also be head of the militia, and if not directly in charge of the contracting process that selected Naebcm Ltd then at least highly influential, officially or not...?
Which means that such cases, and others, would result in a reduction in the number of personal 'Mechs.
and also a market for replacements.
I'd say that the 'Mechs that first formed the Ghost regiments came from said tertiary market, if not a quartiary market, before they entered service, but once they did, they'd be replaced by the primary, military, market.
The majority of the Ghost Regts' equipment is basically self-sourced from the black market even up to the Jihad era. That gives some implications as to both market existence and volume. Skimming even on top of this already grey market is to be expected, to the point that the Black Dragon Society actually managed to field a full 100+ Mech regiment of black-market hardware.
But such a Fief requires you to defend it and you where given the 'Mech to do it.
Remember, its a neo-feudal system, somewhat the reverse of what . You, the newly minted Baron von Somewhere, won't necessarily be assigned the resources to defend your new holdings; you were chosen as Baron because you had the resources, manpower and political patronage to field a decent planetary security force, contribute to your liege's federal forces and guarantee a certain amount of income to him from the lands you hold in fief. If you can't do it, someone else becomes the planetary Baron, and you try to become that guy's retainer instead.
And the main point: all this works to fuel a large and active market in privately-owned Mechs.
True, but BT history with mercenaries is wonky, such that the long term cost saving would never materialize.
Why not?
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The whole issue boils down to local authority versus a centralized state. In the modern world, near-instantaneous communication has allowed centralized governments to control their realms anywhere on the face of the planet. The government supplies the equipment, issues the orders, and they're carried out by "employees" of the state with little local authority over major matters beyond their immediate tactical situation.
In a feudal system, the central government CAN'T control things quickly enough to direct the flow of a military campaign. The information bottleneck just isn't fast enough to keep up with events. They have to rely on local authority to do virtually everything, meaning that the local leader is only tied to the state by their oath and legal rank or title. Either the state can supply the means of warfare directly, or give a landholding to provide income for the local authority to purchase those means on his/her own.
In the BT universe, interstellar communications is the bottleneck, resulting in a feudal system of authority. The local lord either controls forces bought by the state, or buys them with the funds from a "fief" (landholding). As long as the local lord remains loyal to the state, the state doesn't need to spend money to support a distant army that it has no control over. The local authority is free to devote as much (or as little) as necessary to secure his/her fief and meet whatever obligations are required by the state if called upon for service. The state doesn't need to worry whether its funds are being misspent, because it's the lord's problem if that's happening, and it's in his/her interest to see that the funds are being used properly. If the terms of your fief state that you must have 4 Battlemechs ready to serve at the whims of the state, then you'd better have those Battlemechs when the call comes in, plus enough armor and infantry (or more Battlemechs) to protect your holdings while those 'Mechs are away. Failure to meet your obligations means that your fief is either taken away, not renewed, or not passed on to your descendants (depending on the terms under which you accepted both the rights and responsibilities as a titled noble, and possibly depending on WHY you failed: cheese-balling on the terms and not buying what was required, or having had them destroyed recently through another military action).
The major wars and campaigns may have generals overseeing the operation on site, but once the operation is over, a lot of the 'Mechs will return to their various owners' fiefs, leaving a far smaller "permanent" House army. It's in the Houses' interests to see that their loyal vassals are properly armed and available when called, because it's more efficient than having to try to control the bureaucratic monster with days or weeks of delay in communications between the various nodes.
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The general disarmament push at the beginning of the Republic Age would eliminate almost all private ownership of mechs . So SCC statement of Sorensons Sabers or Fox Teeth is pointless as they are among the part of Uncle Chande's Coalition that joined Devlin Stone's Forces after Uncle Chande get assassinated . They all have to publicly give up private ownership of mechs on paper because of the Republic public stance on the issue . Privately the knights of the Inner Sphere still control their ride and it gets maintained at public expense .
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As long as the 'Mech didn't belong to the defenders I can see that working, but if it did you might be in trouble for stealing it.
In the example I used, there's really no one to be in trouble with.
The First Succession War saw so much widespread devastation that there weren't a lot of people around to enforce law and order. It didn't happen all at once in every place, but there was a lot of destabilization. If Billy Bob manages to get that mech working again, he's as good a guy as any to pilot it. The regiment that it belonged to may not even exist anymore. There was a lot of "finders keepers" going on at the time.
To a point. The government probably has right of first refusal on any 'Mech produced and if large numbers end up in pirate or enemy hands the company probably experiences a change of management.
Depends which government you're talking about. In the Battletech Neo-Feudal system, most of these factories are owned by the planetary lord. Him or his buddies, anyway. And none of the nobles really want to see big bad New Avalon come down and strip Baron Ricky of his property. Ricky paid his taxes, he provided his private army like he was supposed to. Now he's gotta hand over all his mech production? No way.
The House Lords are really just the most powerful nobles. Hanse Davion may claim to rule the entire Federated Suns by divine right, but really he's just a richer, more powerful version of Baron Ricky. He's a guy whose ancestors took control of one of the richest planets, and then slowly built their wealth and made agreements with other rulers, absorbed other realms, signed mutual defense pacts, extended their influence, etc, etc. He's powerful enough that no individual noble can stand up to him, but he's got nowhere near a monopoly on political power.
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In my eyes, the BTU is a mashup of two historical eras, the 100 years war and the age of sail. Logistics and what we're told of the economy fit almost entirely within the latter.
And with that being the case, I'd imagine that manufacturing endeavors are basically reskinned industrial revolution affairs. By my reckoning, when Defiance Industries or Luthien Armor Works wants to sell a bunch of BattleMechs, they do *not* front the the manufacturing costs and then hope to sell off enough of the run to turn a profit. Instead, they take investors for a specific production run(s) and said investors get a share of the output based on their investment. You know, almost like what we'd recognize as a kickstarter today :D
As far as private owners of mechs go, I don't see any reason why they'd be hard to explain in any era. The House Armies of the BTU only have so many resources they can throw at funding new mech production, and they'd have every incentive to encourage/allow private funds to be joined with theirs to ensure that production runs get funded asap, even if it does mean that less than 100% of the output walks right into the House Armies logistics pool.
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BT is a neo-feudal universe where power remained more concentrated in the hands of the few (be they nobility, industrialists or landlords) than in our world. Would it really surprise you that Laird McBean, holding this planet in fief for his liege-lord Archon Steiner, would also be head of the militia, and if not directly in charge of the contracting process that selected Naebcm Ltd then at least highly influential, officially or not...?
I can see this working for a while, but not indefinitely. Maybe up through the first half of the 3SW, but the entire thing reeks of a con job, sooner or later those in power are going to wise up and start simply giving the 'Mechs to the militia directly.
and also a market for replacements.
It's not that there would be a market, it's a question about supply
The majority of the Ghost Regts' equipment is basically self-sourced from the black market even up to the Jihad era. That gives some implications as to both market existence and volume. Skimming even on top of this already grey market is to be expected, to the point that the Black Dragon Society actually managed to field a full 100+ Mech regiment of black-market hardware.
All of these are probably multi-generational build-up. Chances are a black market 'Mech isn't that useful, if you can't produce proper ownership papers people should be less willing to hire you.
Remember, its a neo-feudal system, somewhat the reverse of what . You, the newly minted Baron von Somewhere, won't necessarily be assigned the resources to defend your new holdings; you were chosen as Baron because you had the resources, manpower and political patronage to field a decent planetary security force, contribute to your liege's federal forces and guarantee a certain amount of income to him from the lands you hold in fief. If you can't do it, someone else becomes the planetary Baron, and you try to become that guy's retainer instead.
Point (The details might depend upon the situation). But you're supposed to defend that area, if the 'Mechs not there to defend it, you should lose the fief. And buying a 'Mech isn't going to be like buying a gun, even in places that heavily restrict their ownership, because of this.
@Kovax, C*, and there's a difference between a guy with a fief buying a 'Mech, and one without.
In the example I used, there's really no one to be in trouble with.
The First Succession War saw so much widespread devastation that there weren't a lot of people around to enforce law and order. It didn't happen all at once in every place, but there was a lot of destabilization. If Billy Bob manages to get that mech working again, he's as good a guy as any to pilot it. The regiment that it belonged to may not even exist anymore. There was a lot of "finders keepers" going on at the time.
I'd assume that 'Mechs have identifying numbers on them and people will run them at some point.
Depends which government you're talking about. In the Battletech Neo-Feudal system, most of these factories are owned by the planetary lord. Him or his buddies, anyway. And none of the nobles really want to see big bad New Avalon come down and strip Baron Ricky of his property. Ricky paid his taxes, he provided his private army like he was supposed to. Now he's gotta hand over all his mech production? No way.
The House Lords are really just the most powerful nobles. Hanse Davion may claim to rule the entire Federated Suns by divine right, but really he's just a richer, more powerful version of Baron Ricky. He's a guy whose ancestors took control of one of the richest planets, and then slowly built their wealth and made agreements with other rulers, absorbed other realms, signed mutual defense pacts, extended their influence, etc, etc. He's powerful enough that no individual noble can stand up to him, but he's got nowhere near a monopoly on political power.
And if Hanse finds evidence of Baron RIcky selling (Or allowing them to be sold if he doesn't personally own the plant, which some stuff would suggest) 'Mechs to pirates, the CC or DCMS, how long until he shows up with the entire Davion Brigade of Guards to 'discuss' the mater with Baron Ricky?
As far as private owners of mechs go, I don't see any reason why they'd be hard to explain in any era. The House Armies of the BTU only have so many resources they can throw at funding new mech production, and they'd have every incentive to encourage/allow private funds to be joined with theirs to ensure that production runs get funded asap, even if it does mean that less than 100% of the output walks right into the House Armies logistics pool.
But there would be screening to prevent groups like pirates making purchases and the like, which means you couldn't just front up the money and get product, like in a Kickstarter
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And if Hanse finds evidence of Baron RIcky selling (Or allowing them to be sold if he doesn't personally own the plant, which some stuff would suggest) 'Mechs to pirates, the CC or DCMS, how long until he shows up with the entire Davion Brigade of Guards to 'discuss' the mater with Baron Ricky?
Baron Ricky needs to not be a dumbass if he wants to keep his position.
It's all political gamesmanship. The nobility want to keep their power. They joined up with the Great House ages ago because it offered protection against the other Great Houses. Baron Ricky doesn't want to face down the might of the Draconis Combine with just his little mudball planet. So you join up with a more powerful nation, on the condition that you remain ruler of your little corner of the galaxy. And all the other guys like you want to make sure that Big Bad Hanse doesn't think he can just throw his weight around and take what is rightfully theirs. It's almost like being members of a union. All the little guys band together to prevent the factory owner from cutting wages and showing everyone the door. But you have to pick your battles. If Billy Bob shows up to work drunk and accidentally knocks someone into the grinding machine again, well maybe the union tells him he's on his own this time. You're not gonna stick your neck out for that guy. Same with Baron Ricky. The nobles make a case-by-case determination as far as when resistance to the House government is appropriate.
But we really aren't talking about someone supplying pirates with mechs, or an enemy state. We're talking about selling them to people who are citizens of the realm and hold some degree of local political power.
So at the top level, you've got the leader of the empire. And this person has control over the assets of the state. There'll be official FedSuns (or FWL, or Combine, or whatever) units that are basically national-level forces. They are like the US Army today, whoever is officially in charge of the country has command over these units. But ti doesn't stop there. The leader also has their own private armies. These are forces that the leader owns outright. Even if he wasn't in charge of the country, these forces would still report to him. And he probably has several layers of forces like this. Hanse Davion wasn't just First Prince of the Federated Suns, he's also (as I recall) the Duke of New Avalon. And he's probably the major shareholder of a dozen different companies, each with their own private mech forces. And he has other titles on half a dozen worlds, and has direct command over their forces as well. And then he's got agreements with other nobles, for them to provide a certain number of regiments to be at his disposal whenever he wants, up to a certain number of months every so many years. And then he's got mercenary regiments that he's hired with his personal wealth, and then some he's hired as Duke of New Avalon, and then some he's hired as First Prince. All told, he's a fantastically powerful man.
And then under him, he's got half a dozen Grand Dukes (or whoever, I forget the exact breakdown of how their nobility is structured). And each of those guys is almost as personally wealthy as Hanse. They have their own long list of titles from various planets. They have their own companies they control. They have their own private armies, and they have their own people who have pledged support to them. And while they don't have direct authority over the armies of the Federated Suns (that goes with the position of First Prince), together they are probably more powerful than Hanse (that's why he keeps some of them as very close buddies).
And then under those guys, you have the nobles who rule just a few planets. Duke Whatshisface rules one kinda important planet and like four planets that are crap. By a normal person's standards he's incredibly wealthy and powerful, but to the other nobles he's kind of a joke. But there's like 80 guys like him across the nation, so together they're really important. And this guy is still Bill Gates rich, no question. And he's got like 3 regiments that support him, so he's dug in really deep, and getting rid of him is going to take real commitment.
And below that guy, you've got the Marquis de Doofusville, and 4 or 5 other guys just like him. The Marquis is the most important guy on one particular planet, even though there's nothing really important there. And he's got a full battalion of mechs, even though a lot of them are in pretty crappy shape, and some of them only kinda exist on paper.
And under him, you've got Count Steve, and under him, Baron Ricky. In the grand scheme of things, Baron Ricky is a nobody. And no one is going to shed a tear if Baron Ricky does something stupid and gets replaced. But also, every other noble in the realm is watching to see if Hanse Davion starts taking undue advantage of the little guy. Because every single one of them is making use of private mech owners to supplement their forces.
So at the top, there's Hanse, and he's the most powerful. But if the Grand Dukes under him teamed up, they're stronger than him. And if the regular Dukes under them teamed up, they're more powerful than the Grand Dukes. And if all the Marquises (had to look up the plural on that one) teamed up, they're more powerful than the Dukes. And so on down the chain. The guys below you have enough power where if they all get mad, they can overthrow you. And at the very bottom, you've got some dude who owns a Shadow Hawk. And you sort of have to share the wealth with the guys underneath you, to keep them happy. Baron Ricky can't afford to piss off the individual mech owners, because together they have a bigger army than he does.
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I can see this working for a while, but not indefinitely. Maybe up through the first half of the 3SW, but the entire thing reeks of a con job, sooner or later those in power are going to wise up and start simply giving the 'Mechs to the militia directly.
Perhaps, but probably not: see note on neo-feudalism. But come now, don't tell me you haven't seen this happen IRL: people swiping office equipment, or more pertinently the boss buying personal goods on the company accounts? "Company business vehicles" which happen to be Rolls-Royces permanently parked at his house? This is that, scaled up to city-destroying levels ;D
It's not that there would be a market, it's a question about supply
Where there's demand there will be supply. At least, that is what I am proposing ;D
All of these are probably multi-generational build-up. Chances are a black market 'Mech isn't that useful, if you can't produce proper ownership papers people should be less willing to hire you.
I think the founding of the Ghost Regts would have suddenly opened up vast new opportunities for skimming Mechs here and there by the very nature of the Ghost Regts' supply lines. People owning black-market Mechs would know where to go and who to work for who wouldn't ask questions. A Mech is a Mech, after all.
Point (The details might depend upon the situation). But you're supposed to defend that area, if the 'Mechs not there to defend it, you should lose the fief. And buying a 'Mech isn't going to be like buying a gun, even in places that heavily restrict their ownership, because of this.
Yes. So the contract of enfeoffment (or negotiations after the fact) between the planetary lord and the liege would include a stipulation of what the lord should contribute to the State... this being neo-feudalism it is more likely in the form of hard cash rather than goods in kind or soldiers. That being said, if the planetary lord wants to get ahead of the other planetary lords in the game, the lord should try and raise regiments and send Mechwarriors to the academy in order to make his contribution (and therefore his planet) more visible.
Indeed, the analogy isn't perfect. But again, the likelihood is that the supply-demand is there.
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So at the top, there's Hanse, and he's the most powerful. But if the Grand Dukes under him teamed up, they're stronger than him. And if the regular Dukes under them teamed up, they're more powerful than the Grand Dukes. And if all the Marquises (had to look up the plural on that one) teamed up, they're more powerful than the Dukes. And so on down the chain. The guys below you have enough power where if they all get mad, they can overthrow you. And at the very bottom, you've got some dude who owns a Shadow Hawk. And you sort of have to share the wealth with the guys underneath you, to keep them happy. Baron Ricky can't afford to piss off the individual mech owners, because together they have a bigger army than he does.
If AFFS capture a 'Mech from pirates, the CCAF or the DCMS and they run it's numbers and find that it was made fairly recently by the factory in Barron Ricky's fief, they're likely to ask some questions, 4 or 5 times and someone will be sent in person to ask questions. 10 times and Hanse provides some of his own sworn men to 'help protect the factory and shipments originating from it.' It's only the 20th time it happens (In a short period of time) that Hanse arranges for 'the factory to be transferred into hands more able to protect it and it's goods'
Perhaps, but probably not: see note on neo-feudalism. But come now, don't tell me you haven't seen this happen IRL: people swiping office equipment, or more pertinently the boss buying personal goods on the company accounts? "Company business vehicles" which happen to be Rolls-Royces permanently parked at his house? This is that, scaled up to city-destroying levels ;D
And companies go to great lengths in order stop such actions, or at least minimize them, when the items in question AREN'T multi-million dollar(C-Bill) murder machines, what do you think they'll do when they ARE?
Where there's demand there will be supply. At least, that is what I am proposing ;D
Yes and no. It will be strictly limited, and people selling them are probably likely to sell them to someone who already owns a 'Mech. And I imagine that they would be entitled.
I think the founding of the Ghost Regts would have suddenly opened up vast new opportunities for skimming Mechs here and there by the very nature of the Ghost Regts' supply lines. People owning black-market Mechs would know where to go and who to work for who wouldn't ask questions. A Mech is a Mech, after all.
I believe that part of the set up for the Ghost Regiments was that everyone provided their own 'Mech, meaning that swiping a 'Mech in transit means stealing from another crime lord. Now cooked books replacements are more likely, but there would be clean officers involved somewhere in the chain of command and requests for replacements are probably checked in more detail for those regiments. Plus I'd imagine that proper samurai status is up for grabs when joining one of these, and stealing like these probably means you don't get it.
Yes. So the contract of enfeoffment (or negotiations after the fact) between the planetary lord and the liege would include a stipulation of what the lord should contribute to the State... this being neo-feudalism it is more likely in the form of hard cash rather than goods in kind or soldiers. That being said, if the planetary lord wants to get ahead of the other planetary lords in the game, the lord should try and raise regiments and send Mechwarriors to the academy in order to make his contribution (and therefore his planet) more visible.
Indeed, the analogy isn't perfect. But again, the likelihood is that the supply-demand is there.
My point was that you wouldn't be able to join a merc company (Or house forces) with the 'Mech once such a thing happens, because you would need to keep it around to defend your new lands.
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And companies go to great lengths in order stop such actions, or at least minimize them, when the items in question AREN'T multi-million dollar(C-Bill) murder machines, what do you think they'll do when they ARE?
And they often fail. Oh, certainly not as rampant as a mere Jag for the CEO's wife ;D but that is just an analogy, you need to up-scale the problem... life's not perfect, you know there are scandals in the current world about trucks and missiles and even jets going round in less-than-strictly-legal routes, right? Guns sold to civilians and modded for full-auto fire? The illegal Mech market would fall into such cracks.
Yes and no. It will be strictly limited, and people selling them are probably likely to sell them to someone who already owns a 'Mech. And I imagine that they would be entitled.
True. Again, BT is a neo-feudal universe, where MORE power is held at the top than we see today.
I believe that part of the set up for the Ghost Regiments was that everyone provided their own 'Mech, meaning that swiping a 'Mech in transit means stealing from another crime lord. Now cooked books replacements are more likely, but there would be clean officers involved somewhere in the chain of command and requests for replacements are probably checked in more detail for those regiments. Plus I'd imagine that proper samurai status is up for grabs when joining one of these, and stealing like these probably means you don't get it.
I've thought about the Ghost Regts a lot. See, you don't just magick up several regiments' worth of Mechs just like that. My conclusion is that what Kurita was really tapping into when he approached the underworld was raw cash, black market supply routes, and personnel... especially Mechwarriors. Some cash went towards increasing DC Mech production, but that would still leave a paper trail, so a (very) significant black market operation was also enacted to supply the majority of the Ghost Mechs. And no, its explicitly stated in both manuals and fiction that the Ghosts were not considered true samurai by the rest of the DCMS and had to source most of their supply from the black/grey market.
My point was that you wouldn't be able to join a merc company (Or house forces) with the 'Mech once such a thing happens, because you would need to keep it around to defend your new lands.
There would be some guns-for-hire who own Mechs but do not have the income/contacts to support it. They would become mercs or enroll in the State armed forces for upkeep and salary.
As for the feudal lord... he would need to provide for both offence and defence - so the lord would ideally need to have 2 Mechs, 1 for the planetary forces and 1 for sending a Mechwarrior to take service in the xxth Avalon Hussars (for example). But if the landhold is located somewhere like say New Avalon, and not on a border planet, the need for local security is much less - so perhaps the lord sends a greater proportion of the troops he raised to serve with his liege's federal forces.
Tanks are also more value-for-money for defensive tasks than Mechs, so if forced to, a lord might conceivably take the risk of sending the 1-and-only currently operating Mech away, and defending the planet with conventional arms alone. It will vary from case to case, lord to lord.
In conclusion, IF the BT universe is truly a neo-feudal one, then we can get a little creative with how it differs from the world we understand.... just my 2 cents ;D
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Basically, the average guy on the street won't be able to just walk into Defiance Industries with a wheelbarrow full of cash and walk out with a Battlemech. It's like buying a machinegun or artillery piece today, where you need a ream of forms and a long list of approvals before you can legally make the purchase, and need to have some sort of excuse why you need something like that. It's still "possible" for a lot of people with no high-level connections. Then there are small numbers of 'Mechs that get "redirected", and sold on the black market, but that's a trivial fraction of the total. If you've got a Battlemech parked in your driveway, and no paperwork to prove how you got it, you're not going to own it for long, so only a few highly connected leaders of organized crime are going to end up with them that way.
If you've got an honorable discharge from your House military, are signed up with the local planetary defense force as a reserve, have a clean record, and have settled down with a really valuable chunk of real estate (thanks to either the family fortune or some remarkable financial investments during your military career) on a border with a long history of pirate raids, you might be able to buy your own 'Mech to help defend yours and your neighbors' property. At that point, you're only about one step shy of being a "knight", but don't have the formal title, and will probably never get it. It's still in the state's interest to allow you to buy that piece of hardware, because it's one less 'Mech that they have to pay for to defend against the regional pirates, and the owner-operator is a proven safe bet.
If, on the other hand, you're just some local factory worker who scored big in the planetary lottery, you're probably not going to get all of the required permissions, because they simply don't trust you with something as powerful and dangerous as a 'Mech.
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Well, the average guy isn't going to be able to buy a mech, because generally they aren't available. It isn't a matter of walking into your local dealership, plopping down 1.6 million C-bills, and walking out with a shiny new Stinger. Those things are on back order for like 20 years.
Characters in novels seem to get mechs through unusual circumstances. They're a poor infantryman who manages to ambush an enemy mech pilot and steal his ride. They have suitably dramatic origin stories that make them interesting to read about. I don't know if that is a common thing for private mech owners, or if there are much more mundane ways to get them. But there generally doesn't seem to be much in the way of paperwork as far as these things go. Remember that this is not the modern day, with our high-speed internet and massive government databases. Possession appears to be 9/10ths of ownership here. I suppose that anyone who actually has the skills necessary to maintain a battlemech also knows how to file off the serial numbers. A lot of mechs suffer damage over time and parts are replaced. Mechs are usually decades, if not centuries old.
I also wonder how often conventional authorities challenge mech owners. Suppose I do find a mech that "fell off a truck". I probably can't bring it back to my house in suburbia and park it in my driveway. You know, take it out on the weekends, impress the ladies. Probably not. But if I've got a farm out in the country, with a big barn I can hide it in? A lot of worlds in Battletech seem pretty "wild west", so I bet I can just hide it there for a while and nobody will come snooping around. The question is, when do you go from "dude who stole a mech" to "respected knight of the realm"? Once people know and accept you as being a guy who owns a mech, I don't think the cops come around and ask to see your papers. But how do you get from here to there?
I'd bet that's when a lot of people run off and join mercenary units. "Roger's Rangers" are stationed somewhere on your planet. If I can manage to get my mech from here to there, I can probably join up no problem. This gives me immediate legitimacy, and if I leave planet with them, no one will ever be the wiser. Twenty years later, I've made my fortune and I want to retire, so I strike a deal with some local noble to be one of his retainers. I make a generous cash donation, he gives me a big piece of land with an active farm on it, and I pledge to help him out during times of invasion. Now my descendants are part of the landed nobility, even if we're mostly unimportant. We're still set for life.
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Characters in novels seem to get mechs through unusual circumstances....They have suitably dramatic origin stories that make them interesting to read about.
Exactly. Because its more exciting that way, but a lot of world-building is skipped in the process. It's something I have remarked that the early MWDA novels have an advantage over CBT novels; some of them do show the life of the average Mechwarrior in service to his planet.
The question is, when do you go from "dude who stole a mech" to "respected knight of the realm"? .... I'd bet that's when a lot of people run off and join mercenary units. "Roger's Rangers" are stationed somewhere on your planet. If I can manage to get my mech from here to there, I can probably join up no problem. This gives me immediate legitimacy, and if I leave planet with them, no one will ever be the wiser. Twenty years later, I've made my fortune and I want to retire, so I strike a deal with some local noble to be one of his retainers. I make a generous cash donation, he gives me a big piece of land with an active farm on it, and I pledge to help him out during times of invasion. Now my descendants are part of the landed nobility, even if we're mostly unimportant. We're still set for life.
Exactly. And you're not very unimportant, you are the "knight" supporting your liege. 1 thing that is overlooked in BT, but I'm beginning to advance as a fan theory, is that Mechwarriors themselves are relatively rare - more common than Mechs, hence giving rise to Dispossessed, but far less common than other soldier classes. Remember another condition of the feudal era - there were fairly few individuals who were trained in the use of a knight's arms.
So a lord can't just seize your Mech, not if he wants your skills as well... but of course if he does in fact have lying around another Dispossessed Mechwarrior whom he considers more loyal than you... you're not long for this world I'm afraid.
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Exactly. Because its more exciting that way, but a lot of world-building is skipped in the process. It's something I have remarked that the early MWDA novels have an advantage over CBT novels; some of them do show the life of the average Mechwarrior in service to his planet.
Exactly. And you're not very unimportant, you are the "knight" supporting your liege. 1 thing that is overlooked in BT, but I'm beginning to advance as a fan theory, is that Mechwarriors themselves are relatively rare - more common than Mechs, hence giving rise to Dispossessed, but far less common than other soldier classes. Remember another condition of the feudal era - there were fairly few individuals who were trained in the use of a knight's arms.
So a lord can't just seize your Mech, not if he wants your skills as well... but of course if he does in fact have lying around another Dispossessed Mechwarrior whom he considers more loyal than you... you're not long for this world I'm afraid.
That's a fascinating idea. I really like that. Since this is a game, if there's a question as how the background works, we should generally lean towards an answer that allows more roleplaying and more adventure over less.
Dispossessed mechwarriors would have a bad reputation. Not only are they dumbos who managed to lose their mech, they're also dangerous. They'd be seen as untrustworthy, always looking to stab you in the back as a way to get into another mech. You don't want to see Joey "the Snake" Johnson hanging around the local baron's court. He's probably looking for a way to pump you full of lead, and steal your Shadow Hawk. Maybe he's seen as more loyal than you are, or maybe you go missing while an enemy raid is inbound, and the lord really needs somebody to pilot your mech. Oh wait, here's a mechwarrior who can do it. Good thing ol' Snake was around, huh?
As far as the overall "economy" of the Battletech world, and where people get all their mechs, I'd suggest it's a consequence of the wealth of the Star League era, as well as the brutality of the First and Second Succession Wars. So way, way back, the Star League and the Great Houses would have set up a lot of equipment caches -- stuff they produced that they didn't need at the moment, so they squirrel it away. They'd also have decommissioned mechs that were held in reserve, buried in some vault on a random planet somewhere. As the Star League upgraded from what we think of as 3025 technology, they'd have had a lot of mechs that they just retired and shipped off somewhere. Maybe some of it was preparation for a war that never happened, an invasion of some dinky little Periphery realm, or a counter to an attack from some House Lord that didn't materialize. Regardless, there's Star League crap absolutely everywhere. Or at least there used to be.
Then the Amaris Coup happened, and Kerensky's war, And a lot of records of where stuff was got obliterated when warships orbitally bombarded key Terran Hegemony planets and military bases got nuked. But that doesn't mean the people who were living nearby were completely clueless. If we had a nuclear war today, and the US government crumbled, I'm sure that Farmer John who lives 10 miles outside of Area 51 would go snooping for alien crap. A lot of Star League depots probably got looted pretty quickly, with people hauling off mechs and burying them in their backyard, "just in case". Then the First and Second Succession wars had thousands of regiments blasting each other to bits, leaving all kinds of equipment sitting there in the desert, baking in the sun and in radiation. There are probably vast fields of destroyed equipment, mech graveyards, on many Inner Sphere planets. But despite how much they've been picked over, that doesn't mean some enterprising young kid can't go out, dig through the trash, and eventually find one that can be salvaged.
There's probably a steady trickle of mechs that "rise from the grave", unearthed by some farmer who didn't know that great-great-great-great grandpa made off with a Thunderbolt and buried it in the cornfield. It's not enough to replace mechs that are destroyed in combat, but combine it with steady low-rate production, and you get the "barely keeping your armies together" feel of the 3rd Succession War.
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I've thought about the Ghost Regts a lot. See, you don't just magick up several regiments' worth of Mechs just like that. My conclusion is that what Kurita was really tapping into when he approached the underworld was raw cash, black market supply routes, and personnel... especially Mechwarriors. Some cash went towards increasing DC Mech production, but that would still leave a paper trail, so a (very) significant black market operation was also enacted to supply the majority of the Ghost Mechs. And no, its explicitly stated in both manuals and fiction that the Ghosts were not considered true samurai by the rest of the DCMS and had to source most of their supply from the black/grey market.
For BT's entire life the supply of 'Mechs has been scares, so I rather doubt that simply extra money would make them appear. But even if it did, given that the crime lords are bank rolling these regiments, that means the 'Mechs belong to them, or at least that is how they would see it.
And no, I was suggesting that samurai status might be offere.
There would be some guns-for-hire who own Mechs but do not have the income/contacts to support it. They would become mercs or enroll in the State armed forces for upkeep and salary.
Yep, and these are really the ones I'm talking about. Given that 'Mechs aren't likely to be given out that often, and that there would be times when people lose their 'Mech and aren't able to get a new one, I'd expect the number to decline over time.
As for the feudal lord... he would need to provide for both offence and defence - so the lord would ideally need to have 2 Mechs, 1 for the planetary forces and 1 for sending a Mechwarrior to take service in the xxth Avalon Hussars (for example). But if the landhold is located somewhere like say New Avalon, and not on a border planet, the need for local security is much less - so perhaps the lord sends a greater proportion of the troops he raised to serve with his liege's federal forces.
Offense against who?
In conclusion, IF the BT universe is truly a neo-feudal one, then we can get a little creative with how it differs from the world we understand.... just my 2 cents ;D
It should still make some sense but.
If you've got an honorable discharge from your House military, are signed up with the local planetary defense force as a reserve, have a clean record, and have settled down with a really valuable chunk of real estate (thanks to either the family fortune or some remarkable financial investments during your military career) on a border with a long history of pirate raids, you might be able to buy your own 'Mech to help defend yours and your neighbors' property. At that point, you're only about one step shy of being a "knight", but don't have the formal title, and will probably never get it. It's still in the state's interest to allow you to buy that piece of hardware, because it's one less 'Mech that they have to pay for to defend against the regional pirates, and the owner-operator is a proven safe bet.
Maybe.
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You don't want to see Joey "the Snake" Johnson hanging around the local baron's court. He's probably looking for a way to pump you full of lead, and steal your Shadow Hawk. Maybe he's seen as more loyal than you are, or maybe you go missing while an enemy raid is inbound, and the lord really needs somebody to pilot your mech. Oh wait, here's a mechwarrior who can do it. Good thing ol' Snake was around, huh?
Last I remembered mechs had a pretty good security system with pass codes and enough other stuff that mugging a guy and taking his keys would be ineffective to steal his mech.
I mean yeah it happens all the time in the fiction but lets not kill catgirls that way.
I think if the baron saw a pirate dropship approaching and said "Everyone get to the mechs!" then Bob's family would put up a fight to loyal old Snake to just grabbing the thing.
It would probably take a while to factory reset the thing and get a new user in it without Bob or his family helping, the pirate threat would be long over by then.
And anyone else with a mech would get the hell out of dodge if that baron was willing to grab their mechs to give to his cronies.
Just my two Cbills and don't let it ruin a good story
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Last I remembered mechs had a pretty good security system with pass codes and enough other stuff that mugging a guy and taking his keys would be ineffective to steal his mech.
I mean yeah it happens all the time in the fiction but lets not kill catgirls that way.
I think if the baron saw a pirate dropship approaching and said "Everyone get to the mechs!" then Bob's family would put up a fight to loyal old Snake to just grabbing the thing.
It would probably take a while to factory reset the thing and get a new user in it without Bob or his family helping, the pirate threat would be long over by then.
And anyone else with a mech would get the hell out of dodge if that baron was willing to grab their mechs to give to his cronies.
Just my two Cbills and don't let it ruin a good story
I was kind of thinking of Loki in the original Thor movie. Jealous of his hot-headed brother, arranges for him to be gone from the kingdom. Also gives their old enemies a backdoor into the city. At the last moment, he swoops in and saves the day, personally killing their enemies and looking like a hero. Oh, umm, spoilers, I guess.
Old Snake isn't caught by surprise by these events. He's been planning to take advantage of an emergency. He'll have whatever equipment he needs to bypass mech security. And if Bob's family farm just happens to be in the path of the bandits... Now that doesn't mean that he's actually teamed up with the bandits (you can't play that trick too often and still get away with it), but he's an opportunistic guy. It's the kind of thing where Bob has gone missing, nobody knows where he is, and the pirates have broken through the defense forces and will be here in an hour. Who does the Baron turn to to pilot that Battlemaster? And Snake is sitting there, holding his drink. "I'm a pilot."
I guess the point is that active mechwarriors would be very suspicious of the dispossessed. They have a reputation for being scheming jerks. Is that friendly guy at the bar really trying to help you, or is he trying to lead you into a trap? I had zero interest in the dispossessed until like 4 posts ago. I didn't think they were interesting at all, had no story ideas for them. You're a mechwarrior without a mech, have fun sitting at the table not doing anything while the rest of the group goes out and fights. But Kidd's post gave me a world of story hooks for characters like that. Mostly as NPCs, but it could be fun to play a game where the characters are all trying to con their way into a mech.
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The Dispossessed will be a diverse group.
On the one end of the spectrum, you've got minor nobles with a landholding, but no longer own a 'Mech. They're trying to scrounge the cash to buy another (most likely by increasing taxes within their fief, or selling off other personal holdings), but it might take months or even years. Meanwhile, they're in danger of losing their fief on account of not being able to honor their military obligation. They may be entirely "honorable", but until they can get another 'Mech, they're treading on thin ice.
On the opposite end, you've got your dispossessed "owner-operators" in the service of some other noble, who aren't landed, and may need to acquire or negotiate the use of another 'Mech by "questionable" means, because there's no way they can ever hope to buy one. Their best chance of regaining status is by "kissing up" to their local lord, in hopes that he or she may provide access to a 'Mech.
Then you have the ex-military Mechwarrior retirees, who aren't desperate for a 'Mech, but fully capable of operating one, and many of them would love to do so again. That probably doesn't extend to the point of killing another MechWarrior to take his ride. There are also Mercenaries who have been shot out of their machines, a very variable lot who may or may not have scruples, depending on the individual.
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Last I remembered mechs had a pretty good security system with pass codes and enough other stuff that mugging a guy and taking his keys would be ineffective to steal his mech.
Press F2 to Enter Boot Mode > Format Disk > Create New User ;D sorry, its pithy, but you get the idea.
There is a bit of controversial MWDA fiction in which the new owner has to be plugged into the Mech for the best part of a day in order to reprogram the Mech. Doesn't jive with other fiction (even in the same MWDA series!) in which the Mech can be reprogrammed in a matter of minutes. My personal explanation is that the former case was a not-quite-so-tech-savvy Mechwarrior who only knew how to do it "the long way", while the latter cases are done by expert hackers or techs, possibly using specialised hacking or maintenance equipment.
But yeah... have a heart for the catgirls ;D point being that it is a probable risk that lone "sellsword Mechwarriors" will find their throats slit by new employers who have a more favoured Dispossessed waiting in the wings plus the wherewithal to reprogram a Mech in such a manner.
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in the stackpole novel where victor and the other house heirs are being trained by the dragoons, one of the "scenarios" had victor "stealing" a Dashi, by swapping out a "security chip" with unknown user profiles, with one that already had his personal security profile encoded on it.
while this (likely) wouldn't work on an IS mechs security system (due to it including features like synchronized modules being used in more modern cars and similar) it was plausible for an "exploit" in clan designs simply due to the fact that they are more lax about security precautions (at least in the novels)
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I was kind of thinking of Loki in the original Thor movie.
Now that is a good story which I can get behind.
Snake puts in the work he can get mech.
A nice story hook for the players who get hired by Bob's family to get their mech back from Snake, but make sure not to core it or you don't get paid.
Now I feel like making avenger based mechs in Lab :)
New Quirk throw-able shield.
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Most nations with a military industrial complex can only sell hardware to entities be it other nations , companies , or individuals that have been issued an End User Statement . A document that outlines who ultimately end up with said hardware. When mercenaries take a contract with a government they get most of the support from the government's quartermaster Corps . However if the mercenaries requires more of a particular item of supply than the military has on hand then the mercenary company tends to be issued an end user statement so it can be purchased from the manufacturers directly . Near the end of the apparent successful completion of the contract the government tends to permit losses sustained from the completion of it to be replaced with locally available.It gives them an incentive to not hire against that government who can stop replacement parts get cut off.
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SCC, you pose a very interesting question. But, let's not forget that a lot of the mercenary trade really got its start because of Kerensky's departure and the ensuing succession wars. And, let's also not forget the long period of time that those wars were fought over and how a culture can form from repeated processes over time.
People have done a great job covering Neo Feudalism in the light of vast distances and slow communication. Each world is it's own island.
(While I can't back this up with the current 1st and 2nd Succession Wars books, not having read them yet) It seems to me that the mercenary trade didn't really get started until the Succession Wars, or just before, with all those Hegemony and Star League regiments staying behind. The house lords sought to buy these guys out in order to ease whatever Hegemony world-grabs they had planned. A lot of these units would still have a strong Esprit De Corps, wanting to keep together. They're also not stupid, foreseeing that they would be put to use, and would need replacements. They work into their charter a means of acquiring replacements that won't tie them to the state. Desire to own them, combined with no really solid way to hunt them down and eliminate them, (not without unifying the rest of the remaining hegemony forces against said lord) means that the Lord acquiesces. Remember that there's still a significant Hegemony navy, too, not just land forces.
You have the real start of your independent market. But, there's precedent, as well. Let's not forget the bout of ronin duels during the height of the Star League when Kurita warriors would face off against Star League and Hegemony knights. Those guys got their Mechs from somewhere.
So, you have your Star League regiments on retainer with contract that allows for a means of acquiring replacements from the state's manufacturing supply. Then, as the wars rage, and warriors of said mercenary regiment prove themselves and their loyalty and skill above and beyond, nobles and house lords start handing out titles, and the regiment's personnel slowly get spread to the corners of the realm.
But, by the time that a coup might be plausible, you've had the mercenary trade on hand for a long time, a couple decades at least, and local lords and lasses are taking advantage of it during peacetime to get payback or some such. It's also a great means of plausible deniability for the state in general, when they can point the finger at some lower-end schmuck when his raid goes sour or gets traced back to the Realm.
By the time you get to the third succession war, raids are the normal thing. The mercenary market exists, and its much easier to just hire out, leaving the costs of recouping and salvage and what-have-you to the forces on site. After a couple hundred years, it's so ingrained into the fabric of life in Human occupied space that it doesn't go away without a really strong stimulus.
You got to look at this less with modern lenses, like we normally do, and envision that there are a lot of things that become status quo through a process that isn't connected to just any one thing or event. What we accept now as real in the 20th and 21st century on a planet-bound Earth can easily change due to circumstances and necessities when we get to the stars. We've not seen galactic conflict, and we've not seen the defection of a large super-power's military into some nebulous exile where they can't be followed or found, leaving what's left of who stays trying to figure out how to stay alive and not get creamed.
Who knows what will come out of that.
The mercenary trade from the early succession wars probably saw the start and rise of the salvage industry. It really didn't get heavy until people were going back to nuked graveyards to find workable components to keep equipment functioning when the Quartermaster couldn't come through.
And, there's one other aspect that you brought up that is also a big element of BT: Pirates. Lots of people defect from their leige and depart for parts unknown. Many small pirate kingdoms have entire regiments of Mechs that they've stolen or found some other means to make. (Not enough background on this. I wish there was more.) Throw in the fact that house lords and their vassals have been making similar piratical seizures from the enemy for a time, (Hanse Davion made a raid just to acquire some of a certain design) and it really throws a wrench into any idea of security procedures and being able to track down any single machine. (There were over 100,000 Archers produced alone over the course of the succession wars, if you still hold to that tidbit from the original TR 3025. The amount of mechs put out far outstrips the size of the current armies, and arguably the amount of combat losses. Throw in years of frankenmech chop jobs to keep a small handful in outstanding shape, and good luck trying to identify if that belonged to the 34th Red Bull Company, 113th North Continental Regiment, Sudeten Militia when it was 'lost in combat' in 2813 from an exploratory raid by an 'unknown foreign aggressor strongly resembling a Kurita strike force'.)
Aside: The Mechs in question that fall through the fictional gaps, not covered by the field manuals, but strongly hinted at by large numbers of machines have gone somewhere! And, there still aren't enough because you have dispossessed pools of qualified warriors. Combine that with large numbers of mercenary commands that are not accounted for, as well as militias most likely stocked to the level that their planetary governors will allow without becoming potentially belligerent to the higher powers. That looks like there's a large enough surplus for a thriving market that took off at some point in BT's history and never stopped.
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imagine if the Congressional Medal of honor came with land rights and the private ownership of a Tank. basically like that.
If that was the case I probably would have stayed in more than 5 years, because .... WHO DOESN'T WANT TO OWN A TANK ?!?!?!?!
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If that was the case I probably would have stayed in more than 5 years, because .... WHO DOESN'T WANT TO OWN A TANK ?!?!?!?!
Even when mech ownership is at it's lowest...
The US air Force has just over 1,100 fighter jets. If that 1,100 were divided between the federal government, the states, corporations, "nobility" (senators? Blue ivy Carter?), And private ownership , what percent would need to be out of USAF hands to significantly alter it's character?
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All about the "C" bills baby!!!
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To answer fully; I'd really like to know what era we're talking about.
It's never stated directly to my knowledge, but part of modern military tech in BT is that it is very long-lived and easy to salvage. Modern Mechs, Tanks and Fighters just don't suffer metal fatigue like a modern tank of aircraft would. So per the realities of the setting; they can last forever.
How anything left in a cache survives the centuries? That's another issue, one I have some ideas on, but nothing laid out in canon.
But from say...3000-3055ish, you are bang on! The numbers of privately own machines had been in steady decline; as tech recovered, it made it much less common to gift a warrior a mech or for a private citizen to buy one; they were just too expensive.
But around the mid 3050s, the trend of things not being nailed down, as with the Exodus began to return; The Chaos March and FedCom Civil war would both be good excuses to take your mech and go home. Clan Invasion not so much, because unless you're as lucky as Avanti's Angels, you simply aren't likely to get away with too much more than your life, if that. But when a whole swath of space is suddenly up for grabs and that swath of space has military units in it, whose leadership and loyalty are suddenly unclear? Yup; take your mech and run.
FedCom Civil War presents similar opportunities; Victor, Katherine or to hell with it? Lots of people could have said to hell with it and taken advantage of a divided unit and the confusion of the time and made off with a lot of materiel.
One big question when people effectively desert like this is how in this mech-centric setting, no one ever tracks the series numbers and makes you persona non grata? Honestly I think that would be a great hook for any campaign; you can't work for X anymore, because you stole a couple million C-Bills worth of cutting edge hardware from them when they forgot to pay you for a year (Which shows up in canon a few times).
So those are two big opportunities for random troops to suddenly own cutting edge hardware and give the tradition a boost, but by and large, personally-owned mechs would have been becoming increasingly rare since the exodus, no bones about it. You need regular events like that to give that aspect of the setting a boost.
The Jihad was one such HUGE boost; plenty of opportunities for random civilians even to just pick up and use lost, discarded, only mildly-radioactive hardware.
The problem was that for reasons I will never understand (from an out-of-universe perspective), a principle feature of the Dark Age was that mechs became more rare and so a big fat hairy deal at the end of the Jihad and going forward was Stone and the Republic going out and using carrot and stick to get mechs off the street, as it were. So, in terms of fun in the setting; we really shot ourselves in the foot there. But, frankly enabling the dark age has been a losing proposition since day one and this is just one of many of the ways in which that is the case.
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FedCom Civil War presents similar opportunities; Victor, Katherine or to hell with it? Lots of people could have said to hell with it and taken advantage of a divided unit and the confusion of the time and made off with a lot of materiel.
that and the Clan invasion are IIRC officially cited as reasons for the boom in mercenaries and pirate gangs.
One big question when people effectively desert like this is how in this mech-centric setting, no one ever tracks the series numbers and makes you persona non grata? Honestly I think that would be a great hook for any campaign; you can't work for X anymore, because you stole a couple million C-Bills worth of cutting edge hardware from them when they forgot to pay you for a year (Which shows up in canon a few times).
Difficulty in propagating information - hard to put out an all-points just like that. More importantly, in a neo-feudal setting, local lords have loads of discretionary power. It might behoove some of them to keep mum about someone who's turned into a useful and loyal retainer.
The Jihad was one such HUGE boost; plenty of opportunities for random civilians even to just pick up and use lost, discarded, only mildly-radioactive hardware.
There are a few redeeming qualities of the Dark Age. It, and the Jihad, was a reset button much like the Succession Wars were :)
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Difficulty in propagating information - hard to put out an all-points just like that. More importantly, in a neo-feudal setting, local lords have loads of discretionary power. It might behoove some of them to keep mum about someone who's turned into a useful and loyal retainer.
There are a few redeeming qualities of the Dark Age. It, and the Jihad, was a reset button much like the Succession Wars were :)
Granted, but it would be easy to keep a general database copied to all merc liasons; "We need all your Mech SNs, for salvage purposes....Ops! Seems one hundred years ago, your great granddaddy made off with that Crusader. We can confiscate it, or you can compensate us. With Interest."
Next is an excellent point; we hear lots about company store policies, but no one ever gets blackmailed over where they get their gear. Mr. Dark, Evil Lord could easily keep his merc retainers around, simply by threatening to withdraw his protection of them and release their information to the authorities.
For sake of argument...sure...But reset us to what? How many years since the end of the DA product line and we're still working the awful art into BT products and still trying to rationalize the designs and loadouts. And as I pointed out; the Jihad could have reset us to the age of mass-personally owned mechs, but due to the incongruous story of the Dark Age, it couldn't. Allegedly; they wanted to give us back the era of mad max mech supremacy, but that isn't consistent with they spaghetti-code approach to story they have used to tie the two timelines together.
And really; when you consider the extent to which personal, political power flows through a battlemech's cockpit in this setting; the Stone/Republic drive to confiscate personally-owned military equipment is a significant cultural and political move that I don't think has ever been treated adequately in canon. If it has, please point me to it, because the consequences of that action in a universe with the history and dynamics of BT, should have been immediately and drastically upsetting.
Think about it;
Precedent up till now; own a mech, get a title, land grants; move up in social standing, in other words. Or become a mercenary and be free to sell your in-demand services across the stars.
Stone/Republic policies at the end of the Jihad; Turn over your mechs for a one-time reward or else. Even if that reward is a title, land-grant, money, ect; it's still one-time. And if you piss off the Republic, then what do you have to maintain that status? A feature of the original setting was that disillusioned mechwarriors could turn their coats and be rewarded with the same of better status fighting for a new realm. People of the time would be cognizant of that fact and leery of surrendering their property for that very reason.
We have a BC story about what happened when certain house lords just couldn't leave well enough alone and decide to pester ex-SLDF mechwarriors to join their side or turn over their mechs and it doesn't go well for anyone.
The post-jihad mech-roundup should have been a bloodbath, but it wasn't. Why?
Personally owned fighting machines are a cornerstone of the classic setting that TPTB purportedly wanted to bring back, in that there was a chance to do the dark age better, but they passed on it. Why?
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Stone/Republic policies at the end of the Jihad; Turn over your mechs for a one-time reward or else. Even if that reward is a title, land-grant, money, ect; it's still one-time. And if you piss off the Republic, then what do you have to maintain that status? A feature of the original setting was that disillusioned mechwarriors could turn their coats and be rewarded with the same of better status fighting for a new realm. People of the time would be cognizant of that fact and leery of surrendering their property for that very reason.
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The post-jihad mech-roundup should have been a bloodbath, but it wasn't. Why?
Personally owned fighting machines are a cornerstone of the classic setting that TPTB purportedly wanted to bring back, in that there was a chance to do the dark age better, but they passed on it. Why?
Because the Jihad was the bloodbath. Mercs and smallholders were wiped out. Power swung back towards centralisation like almost nothing before. And in the wake of widespread economic destruction, it took time before the Dispossessed noble families began acquiring enough local power to make trouble again.
2nd point - cause Weisman made a mistake. He wanted there to be less mechs as well as a more combined arms approach to the game. So he wrote the story to force these points through. Whereas CGL wrote the story according to what seemed narratively coherent, and let players pick how they wanted to play the game.
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I tend to think people are overestimating the number of machines that the associated Yakuza were directly supplying the Ghost Regiments. I believe the DCMS sold the Yak's hand-me-downs and cast-off junk as Comstar supplied equipment and new Combine procurement went to existing and new/restored regular formations. And even then, it's clear they got some of that Comstar bounty as well.
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Because the Jihad was the bloodbath. Mercs and smallholders were wiped out. Power swung back towards centralisation like almost nothing before. And in the wake of widespread economic destruction, it took time before the Dispossessed noble families began acquiring enough local power to make trouble again.
2nd point - cause Weisman made a mistake. He wanted there to be less mechs as well as a more combined arms approach to the game. So he wrote the story to force these points through. Whereas CGL wrote the story according to what seemed narratively coherent, and let players pick how they wanted to play the game.
Yeah. But those are just forces inside the Republic bashing it out and it probably wasn't as combined arms-ish as the fourth succession war was when they decided to stop doing mech duels at high noon with what was left.
It is an ugly time for Mercenaries post Jihad though. Most of the units got smashed in the Jihad and then starved when there was no work since nobody wanted to fight after the Jihad... Then there was probably a tiny golden age right there at 3135 when everybody needs some Mercs. Which would immediately go down hill because the fights are all one sided. Now the only safe bet is to throw in with the Draconis Combine and because it's a safe bet the pay is bad.
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One big question when people effectively desert like this is how in this mech-centric setting, no one ever tracks the series numbers and makes you persona non grata? Honestly I think that would be a great hook for any campaign; you can't work for X anymore, because you stole a couple million C-Bills worth of cutting edge hardware from them when they forgot to pay you for a year (Which shows up in canon a few times).
People who jump ship and steal equipment tend to go work for the other guys.
It's not, "House Davion didn't pay me for a year, so I took their mechs and then took a contract with House Davion."
It's, "House Davion didn't pay me for a year, so I took their mechs and then took a contract with The Capellan Confederation. Now I'm raiding the planet I previously garrisoned and looting their stuff."
The Capellan Confederation doesn't care that your mechs have got some Davion Serial Numbers on them. that's some poetic justice.
Granted, but it would be easy to keep a general database copied to all merc liasons; "We need all your Mech SNs, for salvage purposes....Ops! Seems one hundred years ago, your great granddaddy made off with that Crusader. We can confiscate it, or you can compensate us. With Interest."
You could just claim it was salvaged from someone else. More than that though, whichever faction is taking mechs away from Mercenary Units is going to have a big problem hiring Mercenary Units. So if you are the Draconis Combine during Death to Mercenary's era.... Well. You were going to kill them and take their stuff anyways.
But if you're 3145 House Davion you want all the help you can get.
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Granted, but it would be easy to keep a general database copied to all merc liasons; "We need all your Mech SNs, for salvage purposes....Ops! Seems one hundred years ago, your great granddaddy made off with that Crusader. We can confiscate it, or you can compensate us. With Interest."
I not only don't see that ever happening, I don't think it's ever happened in lore?
What are two key concepts to the BTU: Possession is 9/10ths of the Law and Might Makes Right.
If you run off with or salvage a House Army's mech, sure on paper they might maintain a claim to ownership. Maybe if they hate you enough they might even put a bounty out for its return/your head. But the key variable is "if they hate you enough". House Army units that defect and go merc are not treated with the same KOS treatment that House Army units that defect and go pirate are subjected to. Given the legitimacy of the Mercenary industry and the neo-chivalric behavior that usually dominates the Inner Sphere (if only during the Succession Wars) I have no problem seeing a merc outfit that possesses former House Army mechs asking for, and receiving, full maintenance logs on those stolen/looted/salvaged chassis for the time said chassis was in House hands. For that matter, I can even see House Armies swapping such data akin to POW trades.
If the Great Houses can be civilized and mature about entire planets changing hands by virtue of what happens between a handful of mechwarriors until such time a handful of mechwarriors can fight a new fight and have it trade hands again... I don't see them being butthurt about individual mechs leaving their army's hands. Some merc has our mech? Bully for him. We'll get it back if he's ever foolish enough to take a contract against us....
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Some merc has our mech? Bully for him. We'll get it back if he's ever foolish enough to take a contract against us....
This is a nice depiction of what I think should be a little more common across the Inner Sphere.
And, what's stopping this from carrying past the Succession Wars? I've seen no real indication of state-owned machines. I've read through the field manuals, and nothing ever came up about that. So, it's still lords and lasses that are going to academies and getting assigned to the rosters of the famed House Regiments.
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And, what's stopping this from carrying past the Succession Wars? I've seen no real indication of state-owned machines. I've read through the field manuals, and nothing ever came up about that. So, it's still lords and lasses that are going to academies and getting assigned to the rosters of the famed House Regiments.
if you read the TROs, you'll often find the words "so and so was assigned X Mech". and yes, there are mentions in the Handbooks; in the Draconis Combine for example it is explicitly stated that upon graduation and commissioning, a Mechwarrior who is assigned a Mech is ranked slightly lower than a Mechwarrior who owns his own Mech.
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Ah, yes. That is something lost to memory. Having freshly read up, can you tell me the explicit nature of the 'assignments'?
Are we simply assuming that these assignments still retain state ownership?
Here's an idea! What's to say that 'private ownership' isn't the same thing as being 'assigned' a Mech by the state? Under which you, the assignee, basically own the unit in the same way a person who takes out a mortgage to buy a home doesn't really own their home until said mortgage is paid. But, in this instance, there is no mortgage to pay off. If you do anything to lose the state's trust, you lose the privilege and the Mech.
That might be why there's a pool of dispossessed. The state is more inclined to try handing out 'ownership' to the next generation before trying to justify salvaging someone who is pretty much a failure.
The reason I bring this up: I've found that BT writing is a little too prone to using 'buzzwords' - like 'hit' and 'miss' being success or failure to connect with the target, when Speed of Light Weapons at such short ranges can't really miss. We could be looking at something similar with the writings that have people assigned Mechs.
Just a thought. Also, keep in mind that a lot of source material is written 'In Character', so there could be some bias read into the words chosen.
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Ah, yes. That is something lost to memory. Having freshly read up, can you tell me the explicit nature of the 'assignments'?
Are we simply assuming that these assignments still retain state ownership?
Yes. Based on established canon such as the DCMS rank structure, and inferring from the careful distinction in TROs between "family Mechs" and being "assigned" a new Mech.
Here's an idea! What's to say that 'private ownership' isn't the same thing as being 'assigned' a Mech by the state? Under which you, the assignee, basically own the unit in the same way a person who takes out a mortgage to buy a home doesn't really own their home until said mortgage is paid. But, in this instance, there is no mortgage to pay off. If you do anything to lose the state's trust, you lose the privilege and the Mech.
Perhaps. There are a couple of examples of Mechwarriors being given Mechs as a service awards. And family Mechs have to enter the family somehow, right? But this is not likely to be standard practice due to the scarcity of Mechs. Like with retirement gratuities in real life, I guess sometimes you get cash, or a hamper, or a cruise vacation, or the company car you've been assigned these past few years... according to a combination of HR guidelines, social expectancy and the boss's whims.
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Apart from 1st edition Battledroids, the mech shortage is more myth than reality. Even in the depths of the Third Succession War, when the Great Houses were the closest to slipping into Mad Max territory, there was still a huge number of mechs out there, and vast quantities of spare parts in the scrapyards. Production may not have been keeping up with losses, but you still had a while before the problem was going to become severe. And anyway, that's the era where centralized government control was the weakest. Private ownership at that time would have been pretty high.
Once you get the Helm memory core, and the tech recovery begins in earnest, manufacturing of new designs picks up. For the Houses, this is a great time to give away older equipment. It serves several purposes. 1) It gets rid of an older, out of date design to make room for a cool new gauss boat (or whatever). 2) It rewards the loyalty of a longtime soldier, and that promotes loyalty among the soldiers who see it. 3) It eliminates the need for you to maintain the older machine, which probably has a lot of quirks and problems by this point. 4) It is still kinda available for your use if you really need it, because retired guy's son is likely to join a merc unit and be generally loyal to your nation, and he'll save you the trouble of maintaining it.
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#3 is a good point. At the very minimum, that saves the House on the order of 3,500 C-Bills per month in maintenance costs (including AsTech salaries, and assuming the MechWarrior is their own tech). That may be decimal dust to a House, but it adds up.
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If the 'Mech shortage doesn't exist, why then do the House's build/use ten times the number of tanks then they do 'Mechs?
As for #3 given the number of upgrade kits that seem to have been made.
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The oil lobby of course... ICE engines drive an entire petrochemical economy. :D
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If the 'Mech shortage doesn't exist, why then do the House's build/use ten times the number of tanks then they do 'Mechs?
Where'd you get that idea?
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Where'd you get that idea?
If you look at the objectives books or the Liao House book alot of worlds have just got regiments of armor sitting around defending them. We just don't talk about it much because Battletech is mech on mech action.
But Davion uses Regimental combat teams for a reason and they come with lots of armor and soldiers.
Also this whole topic is really weird. Especially these attempts to make sense of where mechs are coming from.
In the beginning there was a giant faction called the Star League. Then they got blown up and alot of their army left known space. But not all of it. They also had giant caches of mechs everywhere. They had the largest mech army anywhere...
They aren't trying to track down where their mechs went because they're dead. That is where all the privately owned mechs came from.
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If the 'Mech shortage doesn't exist, why then do the House's build/use ten times the number of tanks then they do 'Mechs?
As for #3 given the number of upgrade kits that seem to have been made.
Because that's what the police, lower end nobles, and planetary guard are legally allowed to field in numbers, and I'm sure there's a cap, somewhere, too.
But, that's not the case everywhere. In the Periphery Field Manual, it's stated in the units section that most periphery worlds only field a battalion of hard armor assets, preferring to spend money on Mechs.
In fact, as a counter to the notion that the tank wall is possible, I would like to point out that most tanks from the TRos are manufactured in the same way as a lot of Mechs: On a particular world or a particular small number of plants and then shipped out to buyers. Yes, sometimes they're still in various states of assembly, if QwikCell is anything to go by.
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No, those are 'Federal' forces, RCT's and LCT's used by the FedSuns are still using vehicles and those are raised by the Great House itself
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There is definitely an in universe fusion engine shortage. Which allows them to field way more vehicles. In the succession wars they are ripping fusion engines out of old vehicles to put them in mechs.
Keep in mind the largest loss of technology was the ability to recreate jumpships.
But they were relying on factories they didn't understand to produce a really limited amount of fusion engines to put into mechs.
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Per ISAW, it's more like a 3 to 1 numerical edge for tanks over 'mechs.
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There is definitely an in universe fusion engine shortage. Which allows them to field way more vehicles. In the succession wars they are ripping fusion engines out of old vehicles to put them in mechs.
Keep in mind the largest loss of technology was the ability to recreate jumpships.
But they were relying on factories they didn't understand to produce a really limited amount of fusion engines to put into mechs.
In the Succession Wars, yeah, although I would draw parallels to the FWL's shortage of PPC's, sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.
Per ISAW, it's more like a 3 to 1 numerical edge for tanks over 'mechs.
It carries from source to source, but the Combat Commands from ISAW seem to draw more upon the FedSuns RCT then anything else.
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From the Lyran Objectives PDF.
Typically, Lyran planetary militias contain 1 to 3 companies of unarmored infantry (mostly foot) and conventional fighters, and a battalion of armor
So drop onto any planet in the Lyran Commonwealth and there are a few companies of combat vehicles ready to duke it out around strategic points. But not mechs.
(I'm also not sure if it is a typo. Because every other successor state leaves a regiment on planet of mixed infantry and armor.)
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That's indicative of a shortage of 'MECHS, not fusion engines.
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From the Lyran Objectives PDF.
So drop onto any planet in the Lyran Commonwealth and there are a few companies of combat vehicles ready to duke it out around strategic points. But not mechs.
(I'm also not sure if it is a typo. Because every other successor state leaves a regiment on planet of mixed infantry and armor.)
I don't have the Steiner volume of that series, but some of the other ones have language that's actually ambiguous as to whether the militia forces present are all that's available to defend the listed strategic target, or all that's available across the entire world. Since a few companies can't plausibly cover a garrison as large as an entire planet, I willfully choose to interpret that ambiguity (if only in those books) as meaning "a few companies to defend the mech factory/whatever" rather than the entire world.
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I feel you TDC.
It never actually works out though. Haha. Like... if you are a merc unit with a Lance of mechs doing raids it doesn't make any sense. You would never win. The battalion of vehicles would always wreck you.
The Lyrans are weird with their single battalion though. The Free World's League with their Regiment of infantry and armor per one billion people is probably the most accurate. But it still means your tiny merc company is screwed.
Anyways. Alot of planets are just a space port city. But usually they've only got a few sites to defend too. Like... "if there is gonna be an objective raid they are hitting this factory so that's where we will park these vehicles. Everywhere else motorized infantry will do."
But that makes it harder when pirates come and they are just trying to hit your Kong Walmart.
To SCC, not having fusion engines means you don't have mechs. There is definitely an Inner Sphere mech shortage because there is an Inner Sphere fusion engine shortage. In the Succession Wars if your engine takes too many crits to be repaired good luck getting that mech going again...
Haha. I wonder if there was a huge jump in available mechs post helm memory core from all the machines they didn't bother to rip apart to work an ice engine in.
The Clans don't have that problem and they garrison their worlds with mechs and a few vehicles.