Author Topic: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?  (Read 13436 times)

massey

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #30 on: 30 August 2017, 10:22:44 »
Well, the average guy isn't going to be able to buy a mech, because generally they aren't available.  It isn't a matter of walking into your local dealership, plopping down 1.6 million C-bills, and walking out with a shiny new Stinger.  Those things are on back order for like 20 years.

Characters in novels seem to get mechs through unusual circumstances.  They're a poor infantryman who manages to ambush an enemy mech pilot and steal his ride.  They have suitably dramatic origin stories that make them interesting to read about.  I don't know if that is a common thing for private mech owners, or if there are much more mundane ways to get them.  But there generally doesn't seem to be much in the way of paperwork as far as these things go.  Remember that this is not the modern day, with our high-speed internet and massive government databases.  Possession appears to be 9/10ths of ownership here.  I suppose that anyone who actually has the skills necessary to maintain a battlemech also knows how to file off the serial numbers.  A lot of mechs suffer damage over time and parts are replaced.  Mechs are usually decades, if not centuries old.

I also wonder how often conventional authorities challenge mech owners.  Suppose I do find a mech that "fell off a truck".  I probably can't bring it back to my house in suburbia and park it in my driveway.  You know, take it out on the weekends, impress the ladies.  Probably not.  But if I've got a farm out in the country, with a big barn I can hide it in?  A lot of worlds in Battletech seem pretty "wild west", so I bet I can just hide it there for a while and nobody will come snooping around.  The question is, when do you go from "dude who stole a mech" to "respected knight of the realm"?  Once people know and accept you as being a guy who owns a mech, I don't think the cops come around and ask to see your papers.  But how do you get from here to there?

I'd bet that's when a lot of people run off and join mercenary units.  "Roger's Rangers" are stationed somewhere on your planet.  If I can manage to get my mech from here to there, I can probably join up no problem.  This gives me immediate legitimacy, and if I leave planet with them, no one will ever be the wiser.  Twenty years later, I've made my fortune and I want to retire, so I strike a deal with some local noble to be one of his retainers.  I make a generous cash donation, he gives me a big piece of land with an active farm on it, and I pledge to help him out during times of invasion.  Now my descendants are part of the landed nobility, even if we're mostly unimportant.  We're still set for life.
« Last Edit: 30 August 2017, 10:28:00 by massey »

Kidd

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #31 on: 30 August 2017, 10:56:57 »
Characters in novels seem to get mechs through unusual circumstances....They have suitably dramatic origin stories that make them interesting to read about.
Exactly. Because its more exciting that way, but a lot of world-building is skipped in the process. It's something I have remarked that the early MWDA novels have an advantage over CBT novels; some of them do show the life of the average Mechwarrior in service to his planet.

Quote
The question is, when do you go from "dude who stole a mech" to "respected knight of the realm"? .... I'd bet that's when a lot of people run off and join mercenary units.  "Roger's Rangers" are stationed somewhere on your planet.  If I can manage to get my mech from here to there, I can probably join up no problem.  This gives me immediate legitimacy, and if I leave planet with them, no one will ever be the wiser.  Twenty years later, I've made my fortune and I want to retire, so I strike a deal with some local noble to be one of his retainers.  I make a generous cash donation, he gives me a big piece of land with an active farm on it, and I pledge to help him out during times of invasion.  Now my descendants are part of the landed nobility, even if we're mostly unimportant.  We're still set for life.
Exactly. And you're not very unimportant, you are the "knight" supporting your liege. 1 thing that is overlooked in BT, but I'm beginning to advance as a fan theory, is that Mechwarriors themselves are relatively rare - more common than Mechs, hence giving rise to Dispossessed, but far less common than other soldier classes. Remember another condition of the feudal era - there were fairly few individuals who were trained in the use of a knight's arms.

So a lord can't just seize your Mech, not if he wants your skills as well... but of course if he does in fact have lying around another Dispossessed Mechwarrior whom he considers more loyal than you... you're not long for this world I'm afraid.

massey

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #32 on: 30 August 2017, 11:39:01 »
Exactly. Because its more exciting that way, but a lot of world-building is skipped in the process. It's something I have remarked that the early MWDA novels have an advantage over CBT novels; some of them do show the life of the average Mechwarrior in service to his planet.
Exactly. And you're not very unimportant, you are the "knight" supporting your liege. 1 thing that is overlooked in BT, but I'm beginning to advance as a fan theory, is that Mechwarriors themselves are relatively rare - more common than Mechs, hence giving rise to Dispossessed, but far less common than other soldier classes. Remember another condition of the feudal era - there were fairly few individuals who were trained in the use of a knight's arms.

So a lord can't just seize your Mech, not if he wants your skills as well... but of course if he does in fact have lying around another Dispossessed Mechwarrior whom he considers more loyal than you... you're not long for this world I'm afraid.

That's a fascinating idea.  I really like that.  Since this is a game, if there's a question as how the background works, we should generally lean towards an answer that allows more roleplaying and more adventure over less.

Dispossessed mechwarriors would have a bad reputation.  Not only are they dumbos who managed to lose their mech, they're also dangerous.  They'd be seen as untrustworthy, always looking to stab you in the back as a way to get into another mech.  You don't want to see Joey "the Snake" Johnson hanging around the local baron's court.  He's probably looking for a way to pump you full of lead, and steal your Shadow Hawk.  Maybe he's seen as more loyal than you are, or maybe you go missing while an enemy raid is inbound, and the lord really needs somebody to pilot your mech.  Oh wait, here's a mechwarrior who can do it.  Good thing ol' Snake was around, huh?

As far as the overall "economy" of the Battletech world, and where people get all their mechs, I'd suggest it's a consequence of the wealth of the Star League era, as well as the brutality of the First and Second Succession Wars.  So way, way back, the Star League and the Great Houses would have set up a lot of equipment caches -- stuff they produced that they didn't need at the moment, so they squirrel it away.  They'd also have decommissioned mechs that were held in reserve, buried in some vault on a random planet somewhere.  As the Star League upgraded from what we think of as 3025 technology, they'd have had a lot of mechs that they just retired and shipped off somewhere.  Maybe some of it was preparation for a war that never happened, an invasion of some dinky little Periphery realm, or a counter to an attack from some House Lord that didn't materialize.  Regardless, there's Star League crap absolutely everywhere.  Or at least there used to be.

Then the Amaris Coup happened, and Kerensky's war,  And a lot of records of where stuff was got obliterated when warships orbitally bombarded key Terran Hegemony planets and military bases got nuked.  But that doesn't mean the people who were living nearby were completely clueless.  If we had a nuclear war today, and the US government crumbled, I'm sure that Farmer John who lives 10 miles outside of Area 51 would go snooping for alien crap.  A lot of Star League depots probably got looted pretty quickly, with people hauling off mechs and burying them in their backyard, "just in case".  Then the First and Second Succession wars had thousands of regiments blasting each other to bits, leaving all kinds of equipment sitting there in the desert, baking in the sun and in radiation.  There are probably vast fields of destroyed equipment, mech graveyards, on many Inner Sphere planets.  But despite how much they've been picked over, that doesn't mean some enterprising young kid can't go out, dig through the trash, and eventually find one that can be salvaged.

There's probably a steady trickle of mechs that "rise from the grave", unearthed by some farmer who didn't know that great-great-great-great grandpa made off with a Thunderbolt and buried it in the cornfield.  It's not enough to replace mechs that are destroyed in combat, but combine it with steady low-rate production, and you get the "barely keeping your armies together" feel of the 3rd Succession War.
« Last Edit: 30 August 2017, 11:42:35 by massey »

SCC

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #33 on: 30 August 2017, 18:46:04 »
I've thought about the Ghost Regts a lot. See, you don't just magick up several regiments' worth of Mechs just like that. My conclusion is that what Kurita was really tapping into when he approached the underworld was raw cash, black market supply routes, and personnel... especially Mechwarriors. Some cash went towards increasing DC Mech production, but that would still leave a paper trail, so a (very) significant black market operation was also enacted to supply the majority of the Ghost Mechs. And no, its explicitly stated in both manuals and fiction that the Ghosts were not considered true samurai by the rest of the DCMS and had to source most of their supply from the black/grey market.
For BT's entire life the supply of 'Mechs has been scares, so I rather doubt that simply extra money would make them appear. But even if it did, given that the crime lords are bank rolling these regiments, that means the 'Mechs belong to them, or at least that is how they would see it.

And no, I was suggesting that samurai status might be offere.

There would be some guns-for-hire who own Mechs but do not have the income/contacts to support it. They would become mercs or enroll in the State armed forces for upkeep and salary.
Yep, and these are really the ones I'm talking about. Given that 'Mechs aren't likely to be given out that often, and that there would be times when people lose their 'Mech and aren't able to get a new one, I'd expect the number to decline over time.

As for the feudal lord... he would need to provide for both offence and defence - so the lord would ideally need to have 2 Mechs, 1 for the planetary forces and 1 for sending a Mechwarrior to take service in the xxth Avalon Hussars (for example). But if the landhold is located somewhere like say New Avalon, and not on a border planet, the need for local security is much less - so perhaps the lord sends a greater proportion of the troops he raised to serve with his liege's federal forces.
Offense against who?

In conclusion, IF the BT universe is truly a neo-feudal one, then we can get a little creative with how it differs from the world we understand.... just my 2 cents  ;D
It should still make some sense but.

If you've got an honorable discharge from your House military, are signed up with the local planetary defense force as a reserve, have a clean record, and have settled down with a really valuable chunk of real estate (thanks to either the family fortune or some remarkable financial investments during your military career) on a border with a long history of pirate raids, you might be able to buy your own 'Mech to help defend yours and your neighbors' property.  At that point, you're only about one step shy of being a "knight", but don't have the formal title, and will probably never get it.  It's still in the state's interest to allow you to buy that piece of hardware, because it's one less 'Mech that they have to pay for to defend against the regional pirates, and the owner-operator is a proven safe bet.
Maybe.

Iceweb

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #34 on: 30 August 2017, 21:23:05 »
You don't want to see Joey "the Snake" Johnson hanging around the local baron's court.  He's probably looking for a way to pump you full of lead, and steal your Shadow Hawk.  Maybe he's seen as more loyal than you are, or maybe you go missing while an enemy raid is inbound, and the lord really needs somebody to pilot your mech.  Oh wait, here's a mechwarrior who can do it.  Good thing ol' Snake was around, huh?

Last I remembered mechs had a pretty good security system with pass codes and enough other stuff that mugging a guy and taking his keys would be ineffective to steal his mech. 

I mean yeah it happens all the time in the fiction but lets not kill catgirls that way. 

I think if the baron saw a pirate dropship approaching and said "Everyone get to the mechs!"  then Bob's family would put up a fight to loyal old Snake to just grabbing the thing. 
It would probably take a while to factory reset the thing and get a new user in it without Bob or his family helping, the pirate threat would be long over by then. 

And anyone else with a mech would get the hell out of dodge if that baron was willing to grab their mechs to give to his cronies. 

Just my two Cbills and don't let it ruin a good story

massey

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #35 on: 31 August 2017, 08:49:42 »
Last I remembered mechs had a pretty good security system with pass codes and enough other stuff that mugging a guy and taking his keys would be ineffective to steal his mech. 

I mean yeah it happens all the time in the fiction but lets not kill catgirls that way. 

I think if the baron saw a pirate dropship approaching and said "Everyone get to the mechs!"  then Bob's family would put up a fight to loyal old Snake to just grabbing the thing. 
It would probably take a while to factory reset the thing and get a new user in it without Bob or his family helping, the pirate threat would be long over by then. 

And anyone else with a mech would get the hell out of dodge if that baron was willing to grab their mechs to give to his cronies. 

Just my two Cbills and don't let it ruin a good story

I was kind of thinking of Loki in the original Thor movie.  Jealous of his hot-headed brother, arranges for him to be gone from the kingdom.  Also gives their old enemies a backdoor into the city.  At the last moment, he swoops in and saves the day, personally killing their enemies and looking like a hero.  Oh, umm, spoilers, I guess.

Old Snake isn't caught by surprise by these events.  He's been planning to take advantage of an emergency.  He'll have whatever equipment he needs to bypass mech security.  And if Bob's family farm just happens to be in the path of the bandits...  Now that doesn't mean that he's actually teamed up with the bandits (you can't play that trick too often and still get away with it), but he's an opportunistic guy.  It's the kind of thing where Bob has gone missing, nobody knows where he is, and the pirates have broken through the defense forces and will be here in an hour.  Who does the Baron turn to to pilot that Battlemaster?  And Snake is sitting there, holding his drink.  "I'm a pilot."

I guess the point is that active mechwarriors would be very suspicious of the dispossessed.  They have a reputation for being scheming jerks.  Is that friendly guy at the bar really trying to help you, or is he trying to lead you into a trap?  I had zero interest in the dispossessed until like 4 posts ago.  I didn't think they were interesting at all, had no story ideas for them.  You're a mechwarrior without a mech, have fun sitting at the table not doing anything while the rest of the group goes out and fights.  But Kidd's post gave me a world of story hooks for characters like that.  Mostly as NPCs, but it could be fun to play a game where the characters are all trying to con their way into a mech.

Kovax

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #36 on: 31 August 2017, 09:12:49 »
The Dispossessed will be a diverse group.

On the one end of the spectrum, you've got minor nobles with a landholding, but no longer own a 'Mech.  They're trying to scrounge the cash to buy another (most likely by increasing taxes within their fief, or selling off other personal holdings), but it might take months or even years.  Meanwhile, they're in danger of losing their fief on account of not being able to honor their military obligation.  They may be entirely "honorable", but until they can get another 'Mech, they're treading on thin ice.

On the opposite end, you've got your dispossessed "owner-operators" in the service of some other noble, who aren't landed, and may need to acquire or negotiate the use of another 'Mech by "questionable" means, because there's no way they can ever hope to buy one. Their best chance of regaining status is by "kissing up" to their local lord, in hopes that he or she may provide access to a 'Mech.

Then you have the ex-military Mechwarrior retirees, who aren't desperate for a 'Mech, but fully capable of operating one, and many of them would love to do so again.  That probably doesn't extend to the point of killing another MechWarrior to take his ride.  There are also Mercenaries who have been shot out of their machines, a very variable lot who may or may not have scruples, depending on the individual.

Kidd

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #37 on: 31 August 2017, 11:45:29 »
Last I remembered mechs had a pretty good security system with pass codes and enough other stuff that mugging a guy and taking his keys would be ineffective to steal his mech. 
Press F2 to Enter Boot Mode > Format Disk > Create New User ;D sorry, its pithy, but you get the idea.

There is a bit of controversial MWDA fiction in which the new owner has to be plugged into the Mech for the best part of a day in order to reprogram the Mech. Doesn't jive with other fiction (even in the same MWDA series!) in which the Mech can be reprogrammed in a matter of minutes. My personal explanation is that the former case was a not-quite-so-tech-savvy Mechwarrior who only knew how to do it "the long way", while the latter cases are done by expert hackers or techs, possibly using specialised hacking or maintenance equipment.

But yeah... have a heart for the catgirls ;D point being that it is a probable risk that lone "sellsword Mechwarriors" will find their throats slit by new employers who have a more favoured Dispossessed waiting in the wings plus the wherewithal to reprogram a Mech in such a manner.

guardiandashi

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #38 on: 31 August 2017, 11:53:06 »
in the stackpole novel where victor and the other house heirs are being trained by the dragoons, one of the "scenarios" had victor "stealing" a Dashi, by swapping out a "security chip" with unknown user profiles, with one that already had his personal security profile encoded on it.

while this (likely) wouldn't work on an IS mechs security system (due to it including features like synchronized modules being used in more modern cars and similar) it was plausible for an "exploit" in clan designs simply due to the fact that they are more lax about security precautions (at least in the novels)

Iceweb

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #39 on: 31 August 2017, 15:51:11 »
I was kind of thinking of Loki in the original Thor movie.
 

Now that is a good story which I can get behind. 
Snake puts in the work he can get mech. 
A nice story hook for the players who get hired by Bob's family to get their mech back from Snake, but make sure not to core it or you don't get paid. 

Now I feel like making avenger based mechs in Lab :) 
New Quirk throw-able shield.

Col Toda

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #40 on: 31 August 2017, 20:26:14 »
Most nations with a military industrial complex can only sell hardware to entities be it other nations , companies , or individuals that have been issued an End User Statement . A document that outlines who ultimately end up with said hardware. When mercenaries take a contract with a government they get most of the support from the government's quartermaster Corps . However if the mercenaries requires more of a particular item of supply than the military has on hand then the mercenary company tends to be issued an end user statement so it can be purchased from the manufacturers directly . Near the end of the apparent successful completion of the contract the government tends to permit losses sustained from the completion of it to be replaced with locally available.It gives them an incentive to not hire against that government who can stop replacement parts get cut off.

Daemion

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #41 on: 02 September 2017, 07:50:07 »
SCC, you pose a very interesting question.  But, let's not forget that a lot of the mercenary trade really got its start because of Kerensky's departure and the ensuing succession wars.  And, let's also not forget the long period of time that those wars were fought over and how a culture can form from repeated processes over time.

People have done a great job covering Neo Feudalism in the light of vast distances and slow communication.  Each world is it's own island.

(While I can't back this up with the current 1st and 2nd Succession Wars books, not having read them yet) It seems to me that the mercenary trade didn't really get started until the Succession Wars, or just before, with all those Hegemony and Star League regiments staying behind.  The house lords sought to buy these guys out in order to ease whatever Hegemony world-grabs they had planned.  A lot of these units would still have a strong Esprit De Corps, wanting to keep together.  They're also not stupid, foreseeing that they would be put to use, and would need replacements.  They work into their charter a means of acquiring replacements that won't tie them to the state.  Desire to own them, combined with no really solid way to hunt them down and eliminate them, (not without unifying the rest of the remaining hegemony forces against said lord) means that the Lord acquiesces.  Remember that there's still a significant Hegemony navy, too, not just land forces.

You have the real start of your independent market.  But, there's precedent, as well.  Let's not forget the bout of ronin duels during the height of the Star League when Kurita warriors would face off against Star League and Hegemony knights.  Those guys got their Mechs from somewhere.

So, you have your Star League regiments on retainer with contract that allows for a means of acquiring replacements from the state's manufacturing supply.  Then, as the wars rage, and warriors of said mercenary regiment prove themselves and their loyalty and skill above and beyond, nobles and house lords start handing out titles, and the regiment's personnel slowly get spread to the corners of the realm.

But, by the time that a coup might be plausible, you've had the mercenary trade on hand for a long time, a couple decades at least, and local lords and lasses are taking advantage of it during peacetime to get payback or some such.  It's also a great means of plausible deniability for the state in general, when they can point the finger at some lower-end schmuck when his raid goes sour or gets traced back to the Realm. 

By the time you get to the third succession war, raids are the normal thing.  The mercenary market exists, and its much easier to just hire out, leaving the costs of recouping and salvage and what-have-you to the forces on site.  After a couple hundred years, it's so ingrained into the fabric of life in Human occupied space that it doesn't go away without a really strong stimulus.

You got to look at this less with modern lenses, like we normally do, and envision that there are a lot of things that become status quo through a process that isn't connected to just any one thing or event.  What we accept now as real in the 20th and 21st century on a planet-bound Earth can easily change due to circumstances and necessities when we get to the stars.  We've not seen galactic conflict, and we've not seen the defection of a large super-power's military into some nebulous exile where they can't be followed or found, leaving what's left of who stays trying to figure out how to stay alive and not get creamed.

Who knows what will come out of that.

The mercenary trade from the early succession wars probably saw the start and rise of the salvage industry.  It really didn't get heavy until people were going back to nuked graveyards to find workable components to keep equipment functioning when the Quartermaster couldn't come through.


And, there's one other aspect that you brought up that is also a big element of BT: Pirates.  Lots of people defect from their leige and depart for parts unknown.  Many small pirate kingdoms have entire regiments of Mechs that they've stolen or found some other means to make.  (Not enough background on this. I wish there was more.)  Throw in the fact that house lords and their vassals have been making similar piratical seizures from the enemy for a time, (Hanse Davion made a raid just to acquire some of a certain design) and it really throws a wrench into any idea of security procedures and being able to track down any single machine.  (There were over 100,000 Archers produced alone over the course of the succession wars, if you still hold to that tidbit from the original TR 3025.  The amount of mechs put out far outstrips the size of the current armies, and arguably the amount of combat losses.  Throw in years of frankenmech chop jobs to keep a small handful in outstanding shape, and good luck trying to identify if that belonged to the 34th Red Bull Company, 113th North Continental Regiment, Sudeten Militia when it was 'lost in combat' in 2813 from an exploratory raid by an 'unknown foreign aggressor strongly resembling a Kurita strike force'.)

Aside: The Mechs in question that fall through the fictional gaps, not covered by the field manuals, but strongly hinted at by large numbers of machines have gone somewhere! And, there still aren't enough because you have dispossessed pools of qualified warriors. Combine that with large numbers of mercenary commands that are not accounted for, as well as militias most likely stocked to the level that their planetary governors will allow without becoming potentially belligerent to the higher powers. That looks like there's a large enough surplus for a thriving market that took off at some point in BT's history and never stopped.

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #42 on: 16 December 2017, 16:30:11 »
imagine if the Congressional Medal of honor came with land rights and the private ownership of a Tank. basically like that.

If that was the case I probably would have stayed in more than 5 years, because .... WHO DOESN'T WANT TO OWN A TANK ?!?!?!?!
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bobthecoward

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #43 on: 17 December 2017, 10:11:34 »
If that was the case I probably would have stayed in more than 5 years, because .... WHO DOESN'T WANT TO OWN A TANK ?!?!?!?!

Even when mech ownership is at it's lowest...

The US air Force has just over 1,100 fighter jets. If that 1,100 were divided between the federal government, the states, corporations, "nobility" (senators? Blue ivy Carter?), And private ownership , what percent would need to be out of USAF hands to significantly alter it's character?

blackjack

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #44 on: 17 December 2017, 20:42:16 »
All about the "C" bills baby!!!
#704

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #45 on: 19 December 2017, 08:09:31 »
To answer fully; I'd really like to know what era we're talking about.

It's never stated directly to my knowledge, but part of modern military tech in BT is that it is very long-lived and easy to salvage. Modern Mechs, Tanks and Fighters just don't suffer metal fatigue like a modern tank of aircraft would. So per the realities of the setting; they can last forever.

How anything left in a cache survives the centuries? That's another issue, one I have some ideas on, but nothing laid out in canon.

But from say...3000-3055ish, you are bang on! The numbers of privately own machines had been in steady decline; as tech recovered, it made it much less common to gift a warrior a mech or for a private citizen to buy one; they were just too expensive.

But around the mid 3050s, the trend of things not being nailed down, as with the Exodus began to return; The Chaos March and FedCom Civil war would both be good excuses to take your mech and go home. Clan Invasion not so much, because unless you're as lucky as Avanti's Angels, you simply aren't likely to get away with too much more than your life, if that. But when a whole swath of space is suddenly up for grabs and that swath of space has military units in it, whose leadership and loyalty are suddenly unclear? Yup; take your mech and run.

FedCom Civil War presents similar opportunities; Victor, Katherine or to hell with it? Lots of people could have said to hell with it and taken advantage of a divided unit and the confusion of the time and made off with a lot of materiel.

One big question when people effectively desert like this is how in this mech-centric setting, no one ever tracks the series numbers and makes you persona non grata? Honestly I think that would be a great hook for any campaign; you can't work for X anymore, because you stole a couple million C-Bills worth of cutting edge hardware from them when they forgot to pay you for a year (Which shows up in canon a few times).

So those are two big opportunities for random troops to suddenly own cutting edge hardware and give the tradition a boost, but by and large, personally-owned mechs would have been becoming increasingly rare since the exodus, no bones about it. You need regular events like that to give that aspect of the setting a boost.

The Jihad was one such HUGE boost; plenty of opportunities for random civilians even to just pick up and use lost, discarded, only mildly-radioactive hardware.

The problem was that for reasons I will never understand (from an out-of-universe perspective), a principle feature of the Dark Age was that mechs became more rare and so a big fat hairy deal at the end of the Jihad and going forward was Stone and the Republic going out and using carrot and stick to get mechs off the street, as it were. So, in terms of fun in the setting; we really shot ourselves in the foot there. But, frankly enabling the dark age has been a losing proposition since day one and this is just one of many of the ways in which that is the case.
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Kidd

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #46 on: 19 December 2017, 08:29:01 »
FedCom Civil War presents similar opportunities; Victor, Katherine or to hell with it? Lots of people could have said to hell with it and taken advantage of a divided unit and the confusion of the time and made off with a lot of materiel.
that and the Clan invasion are IIRC officially cited as reasons for the boom in mercenaries and pirate gangs.
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One big question when people effectively desert like this is how in this mech-centric setting, no one ever tracks the series numbers and makes you persona non grata? Honestly I think that would be a great hook for any campaign; you can't work for X anymore, because you stole a couple million C-Bills worth of cutting edge hardware from them when they forgot to pay you for a year (Which shows up in canon a few times).
Difficulty in propagating information - hard to put out an all-points just like that. More importantly, in a neo-feudal setting, local lords have loads of discretionary power. It might behoove some of them to keep mum about someone who's turned into a useful and loyal retainer.
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The Jihad was one such HUGE boost; plenty of opportunities for random civilians even to just pick up and use lost, discarded, only mildly-radioactive hardware.
There are a few redeeming qualities of the Dark Age. It, and the Jihad, was a reset button much like the Succession Wars were  :)

beachhead1985

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #47 on: 19 December 2017, 09:00:56 »
Difficulty in propagating information - hard to put out an all-points just like that. More importantly, in a neo-feudal setting, local lords have loads of discretionary power. It might behoove some of them to keep mum about someone who's turned into a useful and loyal retainer.

There are a few redeeming qualities of the Dark Age. It, and the Jihad, was a reset button much like the Succession Wars were  :)

Granted, but it would be easy to keep a general database copied to all merc liasons; "We need all your Mech SNs, for salvage purposes....Ops! Seems one hundred years ago, your great granddaddy made off with that Crusader. We can confiscate it, or you can compensate us. With Interest."

Next is an excellent point; we hear lots about company store policies, but no one ever gets blackmailed over where they get their gear. Mr. Dark, Evil Lord could easily keep his merc retainers around, simply by threatening to withdraw his protection of them and release their information to the authorities.

For sake of argument...sure...But reset us to what? How many years since the end of the DA product line and we're still working the awful art into BT products and still trying to rationalize the designs and loadouts. And as I pointed out; the Jihad could have reset us to the age of mass-personally owned mechs, but due to the incongruous story of the Dark Age, it couldn't. Allegedly; they wanted to give us back the era of mad max mech supremacy, but that isn't consistent with they spaghetti-code approach to story they have used to tie the two timelines together.

And really; when you consider the extent to which personal, political power flows through a battlemech's cockpit in this setting; the Stone/Republic drive to confiscate personally-owned military equipment is a significant cultural and political move that I don't think has ever been treated adequately in canon. If it has, please point me to it, because the consequences of that action in a universe with the history and dynamics of BT, should have been immediately and drastically upsetting.

Think about it;

Precedent up till now; own a mech, get a title, land grants; move up in social standing, in other words. Or become a mercenary and be free to sell your in-demand services across the stars.

Stone/Republic policies at the end of the Jihad; Turn over your mechs for a one-time reward or else. Even if that reward is a title, land-grant, money, ect; it's still one-time. And if you piss off the Republic, then what do you have to maintain that status? A feature of the original setting was that disillusioned mechwarriors could turn their coats and be rewarded with the same of better status fighting for a new realm. People of the time would be cognizant of that fact and leery of surrendering their property for that very reason.

We have a BC story about what happened when certain house lords just couldn't leave well enough alone and decide to pester ex-SLDF mechwarriors to join their side or turn over their mechs and it doesn't go well for anyone.

The post-jihad mech-roundup should have been a bloodbath, but it wasn't. Why?

Personally owned fighting machines are a cornerstone of the classic setting that TPTB purportedly wanted to bring back, in that there was a chance to do the dark age better, but they passed on it. Why?
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Kidd

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #48 on: 19 December 2017, 10:15:50 »
Stone/Republic policies at the end of the Jihad; Turn over your mechs for a one-time reward or else. Even if that reward is a title, land-grant, money, ect; it's still one-time. And if you piss off the Republic, then what do you have to maintain that status? A feature of the original setting was that disillusioned mechwarriors could turn their coats and be rewarded with the same of better status fighting for a new realm. People of the time would be cognizant of that fact and leery of surrendering their property for that very reason.
...
The post-jihad mech-roundup should have been a bloodbath, but it wasn't. Why?

Personally owned fighting machines are a cornerstone of the classic setting that TPTB purportedly wanted to bring back, in that there was a chance to do the dark age better, but they passed on it. Why?
Because the Jihad was the bloodbath. Mercs and smallholders were wiped out. Power swung back towards centralisation like almost nothing before. And in the wake of widespread economic destruction, it took time before the Dispossessed noble families began acquiring enough local power to make trouble again.

2nd point - cause Weisman made a mistake. He wanted there to be less mechs as well as a more combined arms approach to the game. So he wrote the story to force these points through. Whereas CGL wrote the story according to what seemed narratively coherent, and let players pick how they wanted to play the game.

Terminax

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #49 on: 19 December 2017, 16:36:30 »
I tend to think people are overestimating the number of machines that the associated Yakuza were directly supplying the Ghost Regiments. I believe the DCMS sold the Yak's hand-me-downs and cast-off junk as Comstar supplied equipment and new Combine procurement went to existing and new/restored regular formations. And even then, it's clear they got some of that Comstar bounty as well.

Kitsune413

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #50 on: 20 December 2017, 12:43:59 »
Because the Jihad was the bloodbath. Mercs and smallholders were wiped out. Power swung back towards centralisation like almost nothing before. And in the wake of widespread economic destruction, it took time before the Dispossessed noble families began acquiring enough local power to make trouble again.

2nd point - cause Weisman made a mistake. He wanted there to be less mechs as well as a more combined arms approach to the game. So he wrote the story to force these points through. Whereas CGL wrote the story according to what seemed narratively coherent, and let players pick how they wanted to play the game.

Yeah. But those are just forces inside the Republic bashing it out and it probably wasn't as combined arms-ish as the fourth succession war was when they decided to stop doing mech duels at high noon with what was left.

It is an ugly time for Mercenaries post Jihad though. Most of the units got smashed in the Jihad and then starved when there was no work since nobody wanted to fight after the Jihad... Then there was probably a tiny golden age right there at 3135 when everybody needs some Mercs. Which would immediately go down hill because the fights are all one sided. Now the only safe bet is to throw in with the Draconis Combine and because it's a safe bet the pay is bad.
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Kitsune413

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #51 on: 20 December 2017, 12:47:27 »
One big question when people effectively desert like this is how in this mech-centric setting, no one ever tracks the series numbers and makes you persona non grata? Honestly I think that would be a great hook for any campaign; you can't work for X anymore, because you stole a couple million C-Bills worth of cutting edge hardware from them when they forgot to pay you for a year (Which shows up in canon a few times).

People who jump ship and steal equipment tend to go work for the other guys.

It's not, "House Davion didn't pay me for a year, so I took their mechs and then took a contract with House Davion."

It's, "House Davion didn't pay me for a year, so I took their mechs and then took a contract with The Capellan Confederation. Now I'm raiding the planet I previously garrisoned and looting their stuff."

The Capellan Confederation doesn't care that your mechs have got some Davion Serial Numbers on them. that's some poetic justice.

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Granted, but it would be easy to keep a general database copied to all merc liasons; "We need all your Mech SNs, for salvage purposes....Ops! Seems one hundred years ago, your great granddaddy made off with that Crusader. We can confiscate it, or you can compensate us. With Interest."

You could just claim it was salvaged from someone else. More than that though, whichever faction is taking mechs away from Mercenary Units is going to have a big problem hiring Mercenary Units. So if you are the Draconis Combine during Death to Mercenary's era.... Well. You were going to kill them and take their stuff anyways.

But if you're 3145 House Davion you want all the help you can get.
« Last Edit: 20 December 2017, 12:50:30 by Kitsune413 »
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #52 on: 20 December 2017, 13:07:55 »
Granted, but it would be easy to keep a general database copied to all merc liasons; "We need all your Mech SNs, for salvage purposes....Ops! Seems one hundred years ago, your great granddaddy made off with that Crusader. We can confiscate it, or you can compensate us. With Interest."

I not only don't see that ever happening, I don't think it's ever happened in lore? 

What are two key concepts to the BTU: Possession is 9/10ths of the Law and Might Makes Right.

If you run off with or salvage a House Army's mech, sure on paper they might maintain a claim to ownership.  Maybe if they hate you enough they might even put a bounty out for its return/your head.  But the key variable is "if they hate you enough".  House Army units that defect and go merc are not treated with the same KOS treatment that House Army units that defect and go pirate are subjected to.  Given the legitimacy of the Mercenary industry and the neo-chivalric behavior that usually dominates the Inner Sphere (if only during the Succession Wars) I have no problem seeing a merc outfit that possesses former House Army mechs asking for, and receiving, full maintenance logs on those stolen/looted/salvaged chassis for the time said chassis was in House hands.  For that matter, I can even see House Armies swapping such data akin to POW trades.

If the Great Houses can be civilized and mature about entire planets changing hands by virtue of what happens between a handful of mechwarriors until such time a handful of mechwarriors can fight a new fight and have it trade hands again... I don't see them being butthurt about individual mechs leaving their army's hands.  Some merc has our mech?  Bully for him.  We'll get it back if he's ever foolish enough to take a contract against us....

Daemion

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #53 on: 20 December 2017, 23:18:10 »
Some merc has our mech?  Bully for him.  We'll get it back if he's ever foolish enough to take a contract against us....

This is a nice depiction of what I think should be a little more common across the Inner Sphere.

And, what's stopping this from carrying past the Succession Wars? I've seen no real indication of state-owned machines. I've read through the field manuals, and nothing ever came up about that. So, it's still lords and lasses that are going to academies and getting assigned to the rosters of the famed House Regiments.

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Kidd

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #54 on: 21 December 2017, 06:04:55 »
And, what's stopping this from carrying past the Succession Wars? I've seen no real indication of state-owned machines. I've read through the field manuals, and nothing ever came up about that. So, it's still lords and lasses that are going to academies and getting assigned to the rosters of the famed House Regiments.
if you read the TROs, you'll often find the words "so and so was assigned X Mech". and yes, there are mentions in the Handbooks; in the Draconis Combine for example it is explicitly stated that upon graduation and commissioning, a Mechwarrior who is assigned a Mech is ranked slightly lower than a Mechwarrior who owns his own Mech.

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #55 on: 24 December 2017, 23:42:08 »
Ah, yes. That is something lost to memory.  Having freshly read up, can you tell me the explicit nature of the 'assignments'?

Are we simply assuming that these assignments still retain state ownership?

 

Here's an idea! What's to say that 'private ownership' isn't the same thing as being 'assigned' a Mech by the state? Under which you, the assignee, basically own the unit in the same way a person who takes out a mortgage to buy a home doesn't really own their home until said mortgage is paid. But, in this instance, there is no mortgage to pay off.  If you do anything to lose the state's trust, you lose the privilege and the Mech. 

That might be why there's a pool of dispossessed.  The state is more inclined to try handing out 'ownership' to the next generation before trying to justify salvaging someone who is pretty much a failure.

The reason I bring this up: I've found that BT writing is a little too prone to using 'buzzwords' - like 'hit' and 'miss' being success or failure to connect with the target, when Speed of Light Weapons at such short ranges can't really miss. We could be looking at something similar with the writings that have people assigned Mechs.

Just a thought. Also, keep in mind that a lot of source material is written 'In Character', so there could be some bias read into the words chosen.



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Kidd

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #56 on: 25 December 2017, 00:24:03 »
Ah, yes. That is something lost to memory.  Having freshly read up, can you tell me the explicit nature of the 'assignments'?

Are we simply assuming that these assignments still retain state ownership?
Yes. Based on established canon such as the DCMS rank structure, and inferring from the careful distinction in TROs between "family Mechs" and being "assigned" a new Mech.
 
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Here's an idea! What's to say that 'private ownership' isn't the same thing as being 'assigned' a Mech by the state? Under which you, the assignee, basically own the unit in the same way a person who takes out a mortgage to buy a home doesn't really own their home until said mortgage is paid. But, in this instance, there is no mortgage to pay off.  If you do anything to lose the state's trust, you lose the privilege and the Mech.
Perhaps. There are a couple of examples of Mechwarriors being given Mechs as a service awards. And family Mechs have to enter the family somehow, right? But this is not likely to be standard practice due to the scarcity of Mechs. Like with retirement gratuities in real life, I guess sometimes you get cash, or a hamper, or a cruise vacation, or the company car you've been assigned these past few years... according to a combination of HR guidelines, social expectancy and the boss's whims.

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #57 on: 25 December 2017, 07:23:25 »
Apart from 1st edition Battledroids, the mech shortage is more myth than reality.  Even in the depths of the Third Succession War, when the Great Houses were the closest to slipping into Mad Max territory, there was still a huge number of mechs out there, and vast quantities of spare parts in the scrapyards.  Production may not have been keeping up with losses, but you still had a while before the problem was going to become severe.  And anyway, that's the era where centralized government control was the weakest.  Private ownership at that time would have been pretty high.

Once you get the Helm memory core, and the tech recovery begins in earnest, manufacturing of new designs picks up.  For the Houses, this is a great time to give away older equipment.  It serves several purposes.  1) It gets rid of an older, out of date design to make room for a cool new gauss boat (or whatever).  2) It rewards the loyalty of a longtime soldier, and that promotes loyalty among the soldiers who see it.  3) It eliminates the need for you to maintain the older machine, which probably has a lot of quirks and problems by this point.  4) It is still kinda available for your use if you really need it, because retired guy's son is likely to join a merc unit and be generally loyal to your nation, and he'll save you the trouble of maintaining it.

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #58 on: 25 December 2017, 07:28:53 »
#3 is a good point.  At the very minimum, that saves the House on the order of 3,500 C-Bills per month in maintenance costs (including AsTech salaries, and assuming the MechWarrior is their own tech).  That may be decimal dust to a House, but it adds up.

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Re: How Are There Still Privately Owned 'Mechs?
« Reply #59 on: 26 December 2017, 03:59:32 »
If the 'Mech shortage doesn't exist, why then do the House's build/use ten times the number of tanks then they do 'Mechs?

As for #3 given the number of upgrade kits that seem to have been made.