Series of Mackie Related Questions

[JeremyA]

I dug up an old project of mine and am getting back into it.  It's all about the Mackie, but I've run into a few snares in the records.  I'll ask my questions and follow up with relevant information as much as I can.

How long was the Mackie in research and development prior to 2439?

"Though research had been going on for decades, it was lord Jacob who realized that the 'Mech could become the dominant weapon of war."
-Star League, p. 30

I remember reading somewhere that the Mackie was in production for 90 years, and as I was doing research on its history I noticed that Operation Musclebound occured almost exactly 90 years prior to 2439.  So am I correct in concluding that with the successful refining of myomers, a secret HRAD project was immediately started to find a military application for them, and that this project progressed through the 1-4 prototypes until finally being ready to show the -5S?


When was the -6S released?  And which variant, -5S or -6S had its plans stolen during Operation Prometheus?

"In 2455, the Lyran Commonwealth stole the plans for the Mackie from the Hesperus II manufacturing plant, and began producing its own Mackies within four years.  Lyran Mackies led the 2459 campaign against the forces of the FWL on Loric.
Shortly before these events, however, the Hegemony had introduced the MSK-6S Mackie, which sported many incremental improvements over the prototype, and subsequently became the standard production version.  Within decades of the introduction of this upgraded design, most of the prototype 5S models were scrapped.  A few survived as museum exhibits until the fall of the Star League."
- XTRO Primitives Vol. I, p. 8

I remember reading somewhere that an AC/10 was present at the 2439 Combat Run, but I can find no evidence of this myself, was there one present?  Am I correct in understanding that the -6S was not present at that run, and that Colonel Charles Kincaid was piloting a -5S, the same variant that he went on to pilot as a part of the 301st?
 
The Terran Hegemony did not put the AC/10 into mass production until 2460, so how were they able to produce enough AC/10s before then?  I can understand having small quantities that have been produced slowly over the years, but not enough to handle the mass production of the -6S variants for five years without having a line of AC/10s being produced in tandem.  Of even greater importance, since Mother Doctrine should have delayed the AC/10 from leaking to the rest of the Inner Sphere (am I right in understanding that the Terran Hegemony was the first to create the AC/10?), how could the Lyrans produce -6S variants a full year before the Terran Hegemony began to mass produce the AC/10? 

The conclusion I came to was that it took five years, from 2455 to 2460, to convert all the factories (I remember there being a lot of factories producing Mackies or their components throughout the Hegemony, even on Jointly Owned worlds like Hesperus II) to the -6S schematics and get them up and running.  This allows for the Hesperus II factory to still have the -5S in its database, instead of the -6S, during Operation Prometheus. 

In order to make sense of the 2460 date for the mass production of AC/10, it would seem that the production of the -6S ramped up very slowly in the Hegemony.  This would mean that all of the other Great Houses would later field -5S clones, not -6S clones.  If that is not the case, and the records are clear that the Great Houses were fielding -6S clones, can you explain the AC/10 issue that I presented?


When was the Desert Wars Military Olympiad sent their Mackie?

"After the development of the BattleMech, it was only five months until the first Mackie blazed its way across the sands of the Arabian desert.  The images of the massive BattleMech named "Kill-Roy""
- Era Report 2750, p. 138

Was Kill-Roy originally a -5S?  Was it retrofitted over the years or was it like Dread Pirate Roberts, with a new Mackie rolled in to replace Kill-Roy with each variant?


Skobel Mechworks got the contract to produce the Mackie.  Are all facilities manufacturing -5S and later -6S variants owned by Skobel or did they subcontract to other companies on other planets?  What about for the -9H? 


Did Skobel manufacture all the weapons and components for the -5S themselves?  What about the -6S and the -7# from the factories?


I know that 'Mechs that were not designed to switch out weapons and equipment, e.g. "omni-pods", are notoriously difficult to modify in the field.  The Mackie is described as being commonly modified in the field into a variety of configurations designated -8B.  Was the Mackie uncharacteristically easy to modify because of its boxy shape and primitive components?  Or was that common for all primitive 'Mechs?


The -7A is also referred to as the -7#, am I correct in understanding that the # indicated any letter of the English alphabet, A-Z, depending on the modification, but they were casually referred to as -7A to distinguish them from the less reliably altered -8B series?


I know I have more questions about the Mackie, but I can't remember them right now.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.  :)

PS. I know my questions might seem nit picky and requesting unnecessary detail, but its just a sign of how much I love this universe!  O0

[JeremyA]

I know this forum is answered on a voluntary basis by the writers - but I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts as well.

[cray]

Some partial answers:

How long was the Mackie in research and development prior to 2439?

"Though research had been going on for decades, it was lord Jacob who realized that the 'Mech could become the dominant weapon of war."
-Star League, p. 30

I remember reading somewhere that the Mackie was in production for 90 years, and as I was doing research on its history I noticed that Operation Musclebound occured almost exactly 90 years prior to 2439.  So am I correct in concluding that with the successful refining of myomers, a secret HRAD project was immediately started to find a military application for them, and that this project progressed through the 1-4 prototypes until finally being ready to show the -5S?

The Mackie and BattleMechs were not researched for 90 years. Operation Musclebound led to the development of workmechs, which accumulated decades of service before the Hegemony said, "Hey, lets put guns on these!"

The Hegemony started some research "decades" prior to the 2439, but it definitely wasn't 90 years. Interstellar Operations sets the introduction dates for primitive BattleMech cockpit and primitive BattleMech internal structures as c2430. When IO says "circa," that's +/- 3 years (p. 33). So underlying BattleMech experimentation might've started in the 2420s.

When was the -6S released?

There's no firm date, but the late 2440s would've been reasonable. It'd be weird to keep a prototype like the -5S in production for decades.
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=mackie

And which variant, -5S or -6S had its plans stolen during Operation Prometheus?[/b]

Mercenaries Supplemental 2 has a chart of random 'Mech selection for the 2443-2470; 2470-2500; and later Age of War period. The first 'Mechs available to the Lyrans include both the -5S and -6S, which holds true for all the Houses. I'd suspect the -5S prototype was stolen and production-related improvements immediately implemented by all Houses.

The Terran Hegemony did not put the AC/10 into mass production until 2460, so how were they able to produce enough AC/10s before then?

The prototype weapon rules would allow it. The Hegemony WAS at the cutting edge of weapons research in the era and would direct first new toys to 'Mechs.

Skobel Mechworks got the contract to produce the Mackie.  Are all facilities manufacturing -5S and later -6S variants owned by Skobel or did they subcontract to other companies on other planets?  What about for the -9H? 

The Houses certainly didn't rely on Skobel to build their Mackies. However, per p. 188 TR:3075, "...Skobel MechWorks periodically manufactured small quantities on secondary production lines for its remaining Hegemony militia customers [into the 28th Century]." And, "...[the Mackie] benefited from extensive aftermarket support that kept a few hundred in service [with Hegemony militias] until the twenty-eighth century."

So, Skobel built the MSK-7 series for the Hegemony in the late 2400s and into the 2500s. It probably performed some of the upgrades that resulted in the MSK-8 "series." It also built the MSK-9H for Hegemony militias. The other Houses used domestic manufacturers to implement their stolen Mackie plans, and quickly dropped the design when they could build their own.

Did Skobel manufacture all the weapons and components for the -5S themselves?  What about the -6S and the -7# from the factories?

The Mackie was the joint result of numerous major weapon manufacturers (p. 31 Star League SB: "...a joint effort by more than 20 of the best weapons manufacturers in the Hegemony...). So, Skobel was not an all-in-one operation. It was the prime contractor and assembler for components from numerous sources. The original write-up of the MCK-5S (Black Widow Company) gave it a Hermes-built 360 engine, but that was before there were rules for "primitive" engines.

I know that 'Mechs that were not designed to switch out weapons and equipment, e.g. "omni-pods", are notoriously difficult to modify in the field.  The Mackie is described as being commonly modified in the field into a variety of configurations designated -8B.  Was the Mackie uncharacteristically easy to modify because of its boxy shape and primitive components?  Or was that common for all primitive 'Mechs?

The Mackie follows normal rules for modifications and field refits. (See Strategic Operations p. 188, "Customization.") If your players agree, for your home game you could consider the optional Design Quirk rules (p. 193 StratOps) and apply "Easy to Maintain". The quirk, "Modular Weapons" is not appropriate, since the Mackie was simply spacious and easy to work in but not designed for rapid weapon exchange and replacement like the O-Bakemono.

The -7A is also referred to as the -7#, am I correct in understanding that the # indicated any letter of the English alphabet, A-Z, depending on the modification, but they were casually referred to as -7A to distinguish them from the less reliably altered -8B series?

No, there was a whole assortment of -7# variants. -7A wouldn't stand for all of them.

[JeremyA]

  :D
I've missed you Cray!  Somehow I knew it would be you that responded!  (I'm the guy that was working on that Mackie model about 2 years ago - life got in the way for a while, but I'm finally able to crack my project back open, starting fresh with the Banshee for now.)

So I thought of one more question the other day:

On some of the variants, like the -5S and -6S, there are pelvic mounted weapons.  Technically these weapons would be in the CT on the record sheet, but they shouldn't rotate with the CT, and thus would always be in the forward facing firing arc of the legs.  Is this correct?

Thanks,

Jeremy

[JeremyA]

This is the first chance I had to write a proper reply.

So underlying BattleMech experimentation might've started in the 2420s.

I can work with that - it doesn't make for as interesting a story as a 90 year development cycle that would have been known about by some if not all of the 7 Director-Generals during their terms, but it still reaches back to Richard Cameron.

As the Director-General, is there a chance he might have been aware of the project, even in its infancy as it would have been?  Could that have had anything to do with his notably aggressive interaction with the Federated Suns after so long a period of relative peace with pretty much everyone?  You know, reports of the project's progress and estimates of a prototype's eta in decades or something like that?  Key word, "could".

If so, could it also have been part of the impetus that prompted his egotistical son Jacob Cameron to be aggressive towards the Federated Suns and Cappellan Confederation leading up to 2439?  The big snag in this theory is that once he did start getting the Mackies manufactured, he didn't use them in an aggressive fashion.  If the theory is way off, please shoot it down.

Edit: 1/21/2017
One last question, just to be clear, the 3075 TRO says "decades", and I stress the plural nature of the word, meaning minimum 2 for it to be accurate.  2419 would have been the latest the development could have started for that to technically be accurate writing, 2439-2419.  Is the TRO incorrect and it was really in the 2420s, or is 2419 within the scope of your intended timeframe when you said 2420s?

Edit: 1/19/2017:  I'll leave this quote and question here for posterity, but PhoenixStorm answered it for me in a PM.  I didn't realize MUL was a CGL project.  Cool.

There's no firm date, but the late 2440s would've been reasonable. It'd be weird to keep a prototype like the -5S in production for decades.
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=mackie

Can I rely on the dates in the MUL to be correct and reliable?  I have never looked into their sources on dates, but sometimes they clash with Sarna (I realize that's fan based) and there's been cases in the past where one clashed with data in a source book too... too long ago for me to remember, and maybe it has been changed since then.

If so, that would simplify quite a but of my theorizing and detective work.

I'd suspect the -5S prototype was stolen and production-related improvements immediately implemented by all Houses.

Excellent!  Now, I know you said "immediately implemented", but the fact that the -5S is present in the unit assignment tables you mentioned seems to indicate a span of time from 2443 to 2500 where they would not have all been upgraded to -6S models.  How much time do you think it would've taken for the Great Houses to process the upgrade?  Would it be safe to say from their acquisition of the blueprints to 2470, and in some cases (FWL and CC especially) not until sometime during the Age of war?  I imagine that Mother Doctrine would have made it difficult to acquire the Prototype AC/10 from the Hegemony, but once it started getting around or was salvaged in the inevitable 'Mech on 'Mech battles and reverse-engineered I could see it becoming more common.  I suppose I could look at the 'Mechs of each House and see when their first 'Mech comes out that uses the AC/10.  Chances are there'll be fluff somewhere in the XTRO Primitives Volumes too...

Here's the dates of MSK-5S acquisition:
2455(Lyran Commonwealth acquisition through Operation Prometheus, 80% complete blueprints)
    - 2459(Lyran Production), first native 'Mech BWP-X1 Ymir produced in 2462.

2459(Federated Suns negotiates the completed plans from the Lyrans)
   - 2459(FedSun Production), first native 'Mech BKX-1X produced before years end.

2461(Draconis Combine acquisition through raid on Lyrans, complete blueprints)
    - ?immediate production?, first native 'Mech GLD-1R Gladiator produced 2468.

2462 (Alarion defectors to the Free Worlds League, complete blueprints)
    - Immediate production, first native 'Mech Icarus produced 2470

2462 (Capellan Confederation aquisition through Xanthe Operation, complete blueprints)
    - Immediate production, first native 'Mech FRB-1E Firebee produced 2472

It would have made for a very interesting, unbalanced unit composition during these decades - crappy obsolete Great House Mackies, compared to the shiny Hegemony -6S models with a big scary gun for a while.

Also, would the different Great House versions be unique in any ways due to financial capabilities of the specific houses - CC, FWL.  Or would they have still been clones, just less were produced.

The prototype weapon rules would allow it. The Hegemony WAS at the cutting edge of weapons research in the era and would direct first new toys to 'Mechs.

Makes sense - I don't know how I missed the AC/10's prototype release date of 2445...  Also a quick question regarding prototypes - as I understand it, in the real world, there are different prototypes for different purposes.  In this case, the AC/10s would have been 'production' prototypes produced in batches up to a thousand or thereabouts?  Essentially exactly like the final product, just ironing out any kinks that got past the other prototyping stages? 

Incidentally, in the XTRO Primitives Vol. II, p. 6 it mentions that the prototype PPC was used by the Hegemony "for more than two decades" prior to 2460.  Cool.

So, Skobel built the MSK-7 series for the Hegemony in the late 2400s and into the 2500s. It probably performed some of the upgrades that resulted in the MSK-8 "series." It also built the MSK-9H for Hegemony militias. The other Houses used domestic manufacturers to implement their stolen Mackie plans, and quickly dropped the design when they could build their own.

I take it that the "upgrades" you mention mean the factory retrofitting of the -6S models still around to bring them up to current standards.  All this time I was reading the 3075 TRO to mean that the -7 series were factory upgraded and the -8 "series" was field retrofitted, therefore far less reliable.  What you said makes more sense.

Skobel was not an all-in-one operation. It was the prime contractor and assembler for components from numerous sources. The original write-up of the MCK-5S (Black Widow Company) gave it a Hermes-built 360 engine, but that was before there were rules for "primitive" engines.

I plan to compile a list of developers/manufacturers involved as best I can - should I conclude from your statement that Hermes was involved, or was retroactively errattad out?

If your players agree, for your home game you could consider the optional Design Quirk rules (p. 193 StratOps) and apply "Easy to Maintain".

Perfect.  I will note this.  Interestingly in XTRO Primitives Vol. I, p. 4 it calls the Mackie a "committee spawned nightmare" to maintain.  So maybe it's reputation wasn't consistent...


Another question - you mentioned a 'MCK' designation for the Mackie.  Was it just that in the real world that designation had been used for something else or was otherwise off limits?  Why was it changed later to the 'MSK' designation?  The 'MCK' seems to follow the common standard of using letters found in the full name.

Edit: 1/21/2017
Thought of another series of questions regarding the Mackie's history in general last night. 

From the various sourcebooks it appears that the Hegemony managed to keep the Mackie a secret fairly well during its initial production run from 2439 to the late 2440s, and possibly even keeping the -6S secret from some, for a limited period of time.  Here's some of my evidence:

FWL: surprised in 2459.
CC: rumors c. 2447, confirmation in 2456.
FS: unclear, rumors possibly up to 2443, or possibly after 2443, confirmation in 2457.
DC: rumors possibly up to 2443, confirmation in 2443.
LC: unclear, but likely upon creation of Hesperus II manufacturing facility in unspecified year.  There are many factors to consider here - explained below.

Free Worlds League - surprised in 2459, also confirmed then.
"Although he [Geralk Marik, the Captain-General of the FWL] had a workable battle plan for the invasion, he was surprised by the new technological innovation called the BattleMech [during his invasion of Loric in 2459]." - House Marik Sourcebook, "Tenure of Geralk Marik"

Capellan Confederation - rumors heard c. 2447 (?2444-2450?), confirmation in 2456.
"In the last years of Stephen Liao's Chancellorship [he died from pneumonia in 2450], rumors told of the creation on Terra of a new type of fighting machine...By mid-century, the Capellan Maskirovka had become increasingly concerned that these new battle machines...might really exist.
Any doubts about the new BattleMechs...were quickly dispelled in 2456 [when Maskirovka agents learned of Operation Prometheus]." - House Liao Sourcebook, "'Mechs and Rumors of 'Mechs"

Federated Suns - unspecified, though perhaps intelligence reports or rumors around or after 2443, confirmation in 2457.
"By 2439, the Hegemony had begun to field the first BattleMechs...Meanwhile, the other states of the Inner Sphere were having their own problems against Terra's BattleMechs [The battle on Styx was the first use of the Hegemony BattleMechs - which happened to be against the DC in 2443, so what was being referred to here may have been after 2443.  Considering the fantastic intelligence network of the Federated Suns that was aware of Operation Prometheus by 2457, perhaps it was a year or two earlier?]." - House Davion Sourcebook, "The First Prince"

Draconis Combine - ?Rumors?  from 2439 - 2443, confirmation in 2443.
"After learning about the development and manufacture of the Terran Hegemony’s BattleMechs in the 2430s and ’40s..." - House Kurita Sourcebook, "Battles in the Age of War"
"In 2443...four 'Mechs easily trampled the entire company of Kurita tanks, leaving one to scurry back to it's DropShip.  It was not long before Lord Kurita received news of this fearsome new weapon in the Hegemony's arsenal." - Star League Sourcebook, p. 30

Lyran Commonwealth - immediately because of their historic relationship with the Hegemony?
"Soon Commonwealth worlds were making products for export throughout the Inner Sphere.  They received lucrative contracts to use their expertise to help equip the Terran military...[which] gave its government access to restricted Hegemony military information." - House Steiner Sourcebook, "Dawning of the Age of War"
"Raymond Cameron's wife was Katherine McQuiston, whose family had formed the Federation of Skye and were among the founders of the Lyran Commonwealth.  Up till now, relations between the Hegemony and the heavily industrial Federation of Skye had been cool because of the Mother Doctrine restricting the Hegemony from sharing technology.  Businessmen on both sides of the issue hoped that Lord Raymond's accession [as 4th Director-General of the Hegemony] would herald more profitable relations between the two realms. [This is also after, or right at the beginning of, "Joint Ownership of Worlds" which was suggested during his mother Margaret Cameron's reign and was implemented first with the Lyrans and FedSuns.  This marriage alliance would also mean that Richard Cameron was 1/2 Lyran, and Jacob Cameron was 1/4 Lyran, possibly indicating a level of sympathy from the Director-General to the McQuistons of the Commonwealth, and the Lyrans as a whole.  This excellent relationship is further seen during the reign of Judith Cameron, little sister to Raymond and Brian Cameron, who was willing to send Hegemony forces to garrison Lyran worlds along the Combine border to free up Lyran forces to counterattack the DCMS.  This kind of recent history would not be forgotten by Jacob Cameron.]" - House Steiner Sourcebook, "The Age of War - Raymond Cameron"
"One of these BattleMech factory complexes was built on Hesperus II [after the 2439 field test].  The Archon immediately ordered the [LIC] to infiltrate the Hesperus plant and to steal any information possible on the Mackie.  After six years of trying, the LIC never managed to get more than one agent into the plant...By this time, Katherine's son Alistair Steiner...had devised a daring raid to seize information directly from the factories computers...[but] was suddenly called elsewhere.
In 2445... Katherine Steiner left the Throne Room [after appointing her son Alistair the next Archon and he set Operation Prometheus in motion 10 years later in 2455]. - House Steiner Sourcebook, "The BattleMech Era"

I'm trying to get a clear political picture in my mind of those decades and I keep wondering if the Lyran Commonwealth sought aid from the Hegemony to repel the Draconis Combine forces that were invading the Tamar Pact, or the FWL forces attacking on their other front, in the years leading up to the 2455 Operation Prometheus.  It seems like they were the first to know about the Mackie's existence because of their history with the Hegemony and the location of the Hesperus II plant, attempting to infiltrate it right away.  There's precedent for them asking for aid and receiving it during the reign of Judith Cameron, but no mention of aid being requested in this case.  Was Katrina Steiner too proud to ask for aid or was it unmentioned in the sourcebooks because they were rebuffed by the Hegemony?

I get the impression that the Lyrans thought of themselves as having a special relationship with the Hegemony and being privy to secret information and technologies, because of the marriage alliance between Raymond Cameron and Katrina McQuiston a few generations back.  It's almost like the Hegemony might have been slapping them back down to the level of the other Great Houses, very insulting and a reality check for the Lyrans.

It seems like Operation Prometheus was a very treacherous action on the part of the Lyrans, an act of desperation because of both DC and FWL aggression.  This, to me, says that not only was the Mackie the banner-man of the Hegemony, the Lyran Mackie clones would have been a reminder of their own treachery, the Hegemony's technological superiority, and the Hegemony's true view of them as no better than any of the other Great Houses.  When the Hegemony could produce something that could truly change the face of the Inner Sphere, the Lyrans were kept out of the loop.  I would think they would strongly resent the Mackie for all the negative things it symbolized to them.

I realize that this is pure speculation, and much is left out of the history because it was either never considered fully or so that it could be open for future development, but that notwithstanding, is this a reasonable interpretation of the Lyran's possible view of the their cloned Mackies?  Or is it blatantly wrong?

I have not taken the time to consider the other Great Houses perceptions of their cloned Mackies yet, but intend to.

Thanks again for the response!
Jeremy

[Gravedigger]

When was the Desert Wars Military Olympiad sent their Mackie?

"After the development of the BattleMech, it was only five months until the first Mackie blazed its way across the sands of the Arabian desert.  The images of the massive BattleMech named "Kill-Roy""
- Era Report 2750, p. 138

Was Kill-Roy originally a -5S?  Was it retrofitted over the years or was it like Dread Pirate Roberts, with a new Mackie rolled in to replace Kill-Roy with each variant?

I can only tell you about my intent when writing that section of Era Report 2750. Future authors can always contradict me.
Kill-Roy was showcased at Desert Wars almost immediately after it entered regular production. That's the 5 months I mention. The original Kill-Roy wouldn't have been a -5S. It would have most likely been a demonstration model of some sort with only a couple weapons on it to impress viewers, like the PPC and AC/10. Kill-Roy would have been retrofitted as technology improved as it was the mascot of Desert Wars. The 2750 version is probably a lot more impressive than the version I mention as "Kill-Roy's Little Buddy" in the Desert Wars section. In the end, the actual chassis would have been from the original, just slowly replaced with upgrades and parts that needed to be swapped out over the centuries to keep it running. Basically the same machine, but better, stronger, and faster, and for much more than a measly six million Star League Dollars.

Aaron "Gravedigger" Pollyea

[cray]

Many responses after consulting with Chris Wheeler, including some copy-and-pasted straight from PMs:

As the Director-General, is there a chance he might have been aware of the project, even in its infancy as it would have been?  Could that have had anything to do with his notably aggressive interaction with the Federated Suns after so long a period of relative peace with pretty much everyone?  You know, reports of the project's progress and estimates of a prototype's eta in decades or something like that?  Key word, "could".

Possible, yes. The Star League p30 states "Though research had been going on for decades, it was Lord Jacob who realized that the 'Mech could become the dominant weapon of war". That research could have been ongoing since his father's time, although merely different aspects of it. Better weaponry, armor or control systems for example. Not the fully-fledged idea of the BattleMech. Other sources cite Jacob Cameron as the instigator of the development program which created the Mackie. XTRO Prims I p8. Both positions are true.

Edit: 1/21/2017
One last question, just to be clear, the 3075 TRO says "decades", and I stress the plural nature of the word, meaning minimum 2 for it to be accurate.  2419 would have been the latest the development could have started for that to technically be accurate writing, 2439-2419.  Is the TRO incorrect and it was really in the 2420s, or is 2419 within the scope of your intended timeframe when you said 2420s?

Technically a period of 11 years would encompass two different decades meaning it could be anywhere from 2428 or earlier. Nothing is published definitively.

Excellent!  Now, I know you said "immediately implemented", but the fact that the -5S is present in the unit assignment tables you mentioned seems to indicate a span of time from 2443 to 2500 where they would not have all been upgraded to -6S models.

As I recall, Merc Supp 2 and its assignment tables predate TR:3075, so TR:3075's information take precedence. MUL's information will be even more correct, though as Mr. Wheeler points out:

"Yes, but with the caveat that it may contain errors or inconsistencies. Lacking canon information, dates are extrapolated from known points. Until a finite date is printed on a unit the data in the MUL stands - after which it will be updated to the correct date."

How much time do you think it would've taken for the Great Houses to process the upgrade?

Depends on when they gained the upgraded the technology themselves. However, the 6S was also a primitive 'Mech. Certainly by the time a House was build other 'Mechs it'd be able to upgrade or customize the -5S to something like, -6S or a domestic primitive variant.

XTRO:Primitives I p. 8 suggests the Hegemony intoduced the -6S Mackie prior to either 2455 or 2459 - the text isn't clear. It also states that the -5S models were scrapped within decades of the introduction of the 6S.

The BattleCorps story Prometheus Unbound set in 2455 does confirm that the -6S was about then, but doesn't mention which set of plans the Lyrans were able to acquire.

Also, would the different Great House versions be unique in any ways due to financial capabilities of the specific houses - CC, FWL.  Or would they have still been clones, just less were produced.

Once a House had the technology to build 'Mechs - i.e., had a vast and diverse pyramid of industry and underlying engineering knowledge to build 'Mechs - they would've been able to tinker and build new designs. The era wasn't like the Succession Wars where House engineers lacked a basic comprehension of what they were doing - it wasn't a matter of waving voodoo wrenches at lostech Star League-era factories and hoping 'Mechs came out of the mysterious facility. A House supply chain in the late 2400s understood what it was building. As with any complicated engineering project they might not succeed - look at the number of stealth aircraft programs that have failed in the US, China, and Russia since 1990 - but they'll be able to try new things.

Also a quick question regarding prototypes - as I understand it, in the real world, there are different prototypes for different purposes.  In this case, the AC/10s would have been 'production' prototypes produced in batches up to a thousand or thereabouts?  Essentially exactly like the final product, just ironing out any kinks that got past the other prototyping stages? 

As a prototypical weapon the AC/10 is subject to the Primitive Prototype rules from Interstellar Ops p. 118. There's no real set number for what constitutes prototype designs.

Note that "prototype" as used in this situation is a rule term and has effects in the board game. It isn't necessarily considered a prototype by NPCs in the setting. A Hegemony general might consider the Mackie's prototype PPC to be an acceptable production weapon for use by troops. Sure, they might hope that the next generation PPC is lighter and more reliable, or will look back and marvel that they were forced to use such a crappy first generation PPC for so many years, but they aren't necessarily calling it a "prototype" when they built it by the thousands.

I plan to compile a list of developers/manufacturers involved as best I can - should I conclude from your statement that Hermes was involved, or was retroactively errattad out?

The Star League p31 states "The BattleMech, a joint effort by more than 20 of the best weapons manufacturers in the Hegemony", but doesn't go into specifics. They could have just worked on the development itself, as opposed to being the actual producers of the various components.

That said, the only known components from the Mackie 6S are the Hermes 360 engine, and the Ford Super H QWA3X chassis per TR3058 original p148. Those were basically were the same as those used on the -5S since both -5S and -6S were primitive 'Mechs.

The -9H as listed in TR3075 p. 186 has a slightly different frame - the QWA5 - and names the various other components, which are meant to represent latter day, non-primitive hardware.

Another question - you mentioned a 'MCK' designation for the Mackie.  Was it just that in the real world that designation had been used for something else or was otherwise off limits?  Why was it changed later to the 'MSK' designation?  The 'MCK' seems to follow the common standard of using letters found in the full name.

The MCK-5S designation was only used in "Tales of the Black Widow," published in 1985. The subsequent use of MSK might be an error or deliberate change by one of the many authors who worked on the later Mackie material.

Free Worlds League - surprised in 2459, also confirmed then.
"Although he [Geralk Marik, the Captain-General of the FWL] had a workable battle plan for the invasion, he was surprised by the new technological innovation called the BattleMech [during his invasion of Loric in 2459]." - House Marik Sourcebook, "Tenure of Geralk Marik"

The House Sourcebooks did have some inconsistencies between books. The old works like the House Sourcebooks and TR:3025 (Original) have been known to contradict each other. For example, there's a famous discrepancy between the description of the Griffin in TR:3025 (called an assault 'Mech), which has led some to insist the Mackie was 100 tons, even though TR:3025 had heavier 'Mechs equal to or older than the Griffin (Archer, Banshee). And the Battlemaster was supposedly first built for the SLDF in the 2820s... :)

In this case, one would think that the first time a Hegemony Mackie stomped a Combine tank into a crunchy pile of armor and hamburger, the news would cross the entire Inner Sphere in a few years. The Hegemony might keep the Mackie secret from the 2430s to its first battlefield deployment c2443, but it'd take an intensive effort by the Combine to keep the other Houses in the dark about the nature of their defeat in 2443. Now, granted, I could see the Combine wanting to hide their defeat, but every additional battle between the Hegemony and another House is going to bring knowledge of 'Mechs closer to general circulation.

[JeremyA]

Fantastic!  Thank you both for the responses.  This has been extremely helpful.  O0

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.