Major fire in London

[DaveMac]

Major fire in London tower block earlier in the week known to have killed dozens if not over a hundred

I won't post links as many have political opinions not suitable for this fora but you can easily find them

Awful, absolutely awful...

[Sabelkatten]

17 dead, 65 missing my paper said this morning... :'(

We've had some debate about the safety about large wooden buildings in Sweden, but that really pales in comparison to covering your house in (pretty much) rocket fuel! OK, I know that correctly used Polystyrene isn't a serious danger, but still...

[Giovanni Blasini]

No functioning fire alarms or sprinklers, single staircase that appears to have gotten blocked by fire, cutting off escape, and residents being told to shelter in place...unbelievable.

[JadeHellbringer]

That aluminum cladding sure seems to have been flammable as hell. Those images are just jaw-dropping.

I loved the one safety expert on TV talking about "Yes, the fire LOOKED bad, but it was all that outer cladding, the structure of the building is sound. There's nothing to be alarmed about here." Please direct that statement to the people trapped and dying inside the tower, good sir- good news, the place won't collapse, bad news, you're still going to die either way.

[Sharpnel]

Two words, SLUM LORDS. Two more words, NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. Locally, that would get the owners 3 years in jail per victim.

[Sabelkatten]

I don't think any of those words are applicable in this case unless it turns out they actually skipped part of the required fire protection. From what I've read it's the lawmakers that should be in trouble for not making the requirements stringent enough.

[Dragon Cat]

I used to deliver newspapers to tennaments that size none of them that I can remember had sprinklers but all of them had at least two stairwells and all had fire alarms.

I'm by no means a structural engineers or designer but I'd have thought a minimum of two stairwells would have been the minimal required in case something happened to one stair even a structural failure on one flight of stairs would have screened that building

I feel sorry for the people effected, I'm annoyed the design of building even exists and proud of the emergency services for their efforts.  The death total is unfortunately up to 30

[Baldur Mekorig]

Two words, SLUM LORDS. Two more words, NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. Locally, that would get the owners 3 years in jail per victim.

If i am not mistaken, that SLUM LORd would be the local goverment. UK`s Social housing system is complex and byzantine.

[Feenix74]

The aluminium exterior cladding was recently added during renovation. We have had a major problem with similar cladding here in Australia. https://youtu.be/mqs2GOUbJLA

There are two types of this aluminium cladding (which is two layers of aluminium with an insulation layer sandwiched in the middle):

1. Fireproof - which uses a mineral fill layer sandwiched between the two layers of aluminium (eg Alucobond) and is meant to be the type used for high rise applications



2. Fireresistant - which uses a polmer fill layer sandwiched between the two layers of aluminium (eg Alucobest) and is not meant to be used in high rise applications as the polymer fill will, given enough heat, start to breakdown and combust. Here in Australia it is prohibited from being used in high rise buildings by the National Construction Code, ie the building code / standard.



Both look identical once installed.

Guess which one the engineers/architects specify for high-rise buildings?

Guess which one is more expensive?

Guess which one building contractors who are looking to save some money during construction will substitute into their construction?

Guess what the coronial inquest is likely to find happened in this case?

[HobbesHurlbut]

The aluminium exterior cladding was recently added during renovation. We have had a major problem with similar cladding here in Australia. https://youtu.be/mqs2GOUbJLA

There are two types of this aluminium cladding (which is two layers of aluminium with an insulation layer sandwiched in the middle):

1. Fireproof - which uses a mineral fill layer sandwiched between the two layers of aluminium (eg Alucobond) and is meant to be the type used for high rise applications



2. Fireresistant - which uses a polmer fill layer sandwiched between the two layers of aluminium (eg Alucobest) and is not meant to be used in high rise applications as the polymer fill will, given enough heat, start to breakdown and combust. Here in Australia it is prohibited from being used in high rise buildings by the National Construction Code, ie the building code / standard.



Both look identical once installed.

Guess which one the engineers/architects specify for high-rise buildings?

Guess which one is more expensive?

Guess which one building contractors who are looking to save some money during construction will substitute into their construction?

Guess what the coronial inquest is likely to find happened in this case?

I heard that it was like only a couple of Pounds (currency) difference between them per square foot/tile? That's hardcore penny pinching there.

[Daryk]

The estimate I saw on the Economist put the total cost of using the correct cladding at £5,000 for the whole building.

[Simon Landmine]

No functioning fire alarms or sprinklers, single staircase that appears to have gotten blocked by fire, cutting off escape, and residents being told to shelter in place...unbelievable.

The "stay in place" instruction is based on the principle of isolation - the flats were originally designed so that fires cannot spread outside the flat in which they start (which is why the communal areas often look quite bare and undecorated). Which was probably the case before the cladding was added to the exterior of the block (ostensibly, at least partially, to make it more attractive for the residents of the private blocks nearby, rather than for the benefit of the residents of the block itself - although there may have been an insulation factor as well).

At the moment (pending the results of the investigation) it would appear that the potential flammability of the cladding may have circumvented the fire isolation of each flat, allowing the fire to spread rapidly from one flat to another. Some initial reports also suggest that that adding of the cladding to the fluted concrete faces of the block would have created chimneys between the concrete and the cladding, drawing heat and flame rapidly up the gaps, if fireblocks hadn't been added to these gaps.

[Feenix74]

I heard that it was like only a couple of Pounds (currency) difference between them per square foot/tile? That's hardcore penny pinching there.

The estimate I saw on the Economist put the total cost of using the correct cladding at £5,000 for the whole building.

Just remember that your high rise apartment complex is built by the lowest bidder.

I would not be surprised if the next wave of architectural fashion will move away from the aluminium cladding and suddenly brutalist concrete is all the rage again.

The "stay in place" instruction is based on the principle of isolation - the flats were originally designed so that fires cannot spread outside the flat in which they start (which is why the communal areas often look quite bare and undecorated). Which was probably the case before the cladding was added to the exterior of the block (ostensibly, at least partially, to make it more attractive for the residents of the private blocks nearby, rather than for the benefit of the residents of the block itself - although there may have been an insulation factor as well).

At the moment (pending the results of the investigation) it would appear that the potential flammability of the cladding may have circumvented the fire isolation of each flat, allowing the fire to spread rapidly from one flat to another. Some initial reports also suggest that that adding of the cladding to the fluted concrete faces of the block would have created chimneys between the concrete and the cladding, drawing heat and flame rapidly up the gaps, if fireblocks hadn't been added to these gaps.

The aluminium cladding definitely does provide some insulation value and certainly can improve the look of a building. Unfortunately the chimney effect where the combusting material pre-heats/super-heats the material above very rapidly is why the Docklands fire was bad (if my memory serves me correctly, it started due to a cigarette left on a balcony). There is a another clip I have seen that illustrates just how problematic this chimney effect is, I will see if I can find it, it was of a similar fire to the Docklands and the Grenfell Tower one but happened during the day and with a member of the public filming it from near when it started. Very scary how quickly it spread straight up the high rise apartment block.

[garhkal]

Two words, SLUM LORDS. Two more words, NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. Locally, that would get the owners 3 years in jail per victim.

I certainly hope someone goes to jail for this.  BUT most likely it WON'T be the person who's truly to blame..

And has anyone else heard that the fire started cause of a fridge blowing up??!

[Dragon Cat]

First day after the fire it was suggested that was the case from a witness but I don't know if it was ever confirmed as the proper cause.

[Sharpnel]

According to the BBC, death toll is now up to 58. 18 folks still in hospital with nine in critical care. What a horrible tragedy.

[Giovanni Blasini]

According to the BBC, death toll is now up to 58. 18 folks still in hospital with nine in critical care. What a horrible tragedy.

Just keeps climbing - at 79 now, and will probably continue to climb as they search more of the building.  Most recent report on MSN indicates the cladding they used might not have been permitted at all for construction in the UK due to its added fire risk.

[Sharpnel]

If that's the case, the HEADS MUST ROLL.

[garhkal]

Just keeps climbing - at 79 now, and will probably continue to climb as they search more of the building.  Most recent report on MSN indicates the cladding they used might not have been permitted at all for construction in the UK due to its added fire risk.

How then did they get the cladding IN??

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How then did they get the cladding IN??

Lack of inspection, most likely.  IIRC, the same type of cladding was involved in a disastrous high-rise fire in Azerbaijan several years ago.

[glitterboy2098]

lack of inspection, bribes, deliberate falsehoods meant to deceive.. lots of possibilities there. until investigated we won't know what.

hopefully this will bring with it some changes to building codes to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

[DaveMac]

A number of flat were sublet, which means the identity of some victims may never be established

Hopefully this wholly avoidable tragedy will lead to some fundamental changes in UK fire safety

Which should have been carried out years ago