More of the old, less of the new

[klarg1]

No, you're cutting IWM a lot of undeserved slack. If they cannot support the product line, then they are wrong, not the customers. Khell - and others, including myself - are absolutely within our rights to complain.

I seriously think it's time for BattleTech and Iron Wind Metals to part ways. I wish them luck, but they have become a drag on the franchise. BattleTech is about to get a shiny new miniatures rulebook, but the playing pieces themselves are overpriced, poorly sculpted, and the line is incomplete. I know, it's a lot of different units to have to keep in production, and can dig that, but there's no excuse for the attitude of "yes, it looks bad, take it or leave it...at $15 each."

I'll agree that you, as customers are in the right to complain, if unsatisfied. I'll also agree that some of the sculpts have been unsatisfactory (we may, or may not, agree on which ones), but I have to ask:

What manufacturer could possibly take over the line and satisfactorily produce a fully supported new line of minis for hundreds (thousands?) of different battlemechs in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time? To reduce the per-unit price point, we'd pretty much also need it to be a plastics manufacturer, and launching that big a line from scratch would cost millions.

Even if all you want to support is new material, the TRO3145 series still contains more than dozens different units (~10 'mechs x 6-7 books), which is a very big chunk of the average manufacturer's annual new product SKUs.

So I guess my summary is: You are right to complain when you see a flaw, and you are right to point out sculpting flaws/errors. All I would suggest is that we keep some perspective on what is realistic.

[Burning Chrome]

I'll agree that you, as customers are in the right to complain, if unsatisfied. I'll also agree that some of the sculpts have been unsatisfactory (we may, or may not, agree on which ones), but I have to ask:

What manufacturer could possibly take over the line and satisfactorily produce a fully supported new line of minis for hundreds (thousands?) of different battlemechs in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time? To reduce the per-unit price point, we'd pretty much also need it to be a plastics manufacturer, and launching that big a line from scratch would cost millions.

Even if all you want to support is new material, the TRO3145 series still contains more than dozens different units (~10 'mechs x 6-7 books), which is a very big chunk of the average manufacturer's annual new product SKUs.

So I guess my summary is: You are right to complain when you see a flaw, and you are right to point out sculpting flaws/errors. All I would suggest is that we keep some perspective on what is realistic.

I'd like to believe there are companies out there with the capabilities to produce paintable plastic minis relatively cheap with start-up costs that are achievable.  Might have to look consider companies outside the US, or not. 

Heavy Gear/DP9 does a fine job with their minis; multi-part, customizable and *gasp* relatively to scale with one another!  Think that Snub Cannon looks too big in the hands of an Iguana but just right in the hands of a Desert Viper.  Well it should because the SC's size doesn't change between the two Gears which are of different classes.  And low an behold, I cannot think of one "light" gear that towers over in height or out bulks of any of the heavier classes of Gears. 

Pricing is more reasonable as well.

The Hector, a mech I was looking forward too despite telling myself NOT to get excited because of the history of fail with IWM minis the past few years, is a prime example.  I haven't seen one in person, but the pics from players who purchased it indicate it is bigger than a Stone Rhino.  Sure, some players say it is a nice sculpt (I have my own grievances with what I've seen of it to date), but apparently no one involved in the process thought this is a 70-ton mech, why is it bigger than most assault minis? 

Some players in our group think the scale creep is done purposely so the minis cost as much as they do.  I'm not that cynical...yet.  I do find it funny that PGI can't get scale correct in MWO either.  Love the QKD Quickdraw in MWO, but it is as big as the Highlander.  FAIL.  Centurion, Trebuchet, Catapult are all to big for their class while the Stalker is a bit to small.  At least the folks making the minis for these are adjusting the scale properly. 

Still, perhaps foolishly, we're hoping the Primitives due out in August will be worth purchasing.  :-\

If not, more money to spend on other things. 

I agree with ColBosch's sentiments.  May be time to look at other options.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

I won't say much, but ...

I'd like to believe there are companies out there with the capabilities to produce paintable plastic minis relatively cheap with start-up costs that are achievable.  Might have to look consider companies outside the US, or not.

"paintable plastic minis" doesn't really sound like the quality you (and me) are craving. More like a cheap mass product. You do remember the box-set minis? Paintable plastic minis, made for gaming.
Besides, plastic minis? No, thank you. But that is me as a painter/collector speaking.

The Hector, a mech I was looking forward too despite telling myself NOT to get excited because of the history of fail with IWM minis the past few years, is a prime example.  I haven't seen one in person, but the pics from players who purchased it indicate it is bigger than a Stone Rhino.  Sure, some players say it is a nice sculpt (I have my own grievances with what I've seen of it to date), but apparently no one involved in the process thought this is a 70-ton mech, why is it bigger than most assault minis?

Well, many think the Stone Rhino was way too small (me included). It is not as if all the "old sculpts" were perfect to begin with ...

[Cache]

I won't say much, but ..."paintable plastic minis" doesn't really sound like the quality you (and me) are craving. More like a cheap mass product. You do remember the box-set minis? Paintable plastic minis, made for gaming.
Besides, plastic minis? No, thank you. But that is me as a painter/collector speaking.

The Thor and Loki were are excellent plastic minis.  The Inner Sphere Mechs in the set are copies of copies of modified copies.  Had they created them from scratch I believe the quality would have been higher.  Had they used the same process as the Thor and Loki I doubt anyone would be having this discussion.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

IWM has not always put forth the best product, but I agree with Gunji-- they are doing a better job now than ever. Some recent sculpts by those within the community, within this very thread even, have been close to flawless. I will happily continue to send my money to these great miniatures.

I hope that no one was/is turned off from the game by the strong, if in some cases outstandingly flawed, ideas being thrown around here. Believe me, there's a time for *constructive* criticism, but that typically entails remaining polite, and treating the other party as you would want to be treated. Customarily, it is also exchanged from parties within a similar background, with shared experience, in a like field. I would venture most here have not ever been self employed, much less attempted to sculpt a miniature. I think many would be more humble knowing the real WORK it requires to keep a small company afloat.

That said, I wish people would use this very same passion to fuel something inspiring-- instead of playing keyboard commando. Just think of all the wonderful bashes, and paint jobs that could have been completed on the energy within this thread alone. Creativity only fuels further creativity. For the love of all that's good, bring it!! #P

[ShockaTime]

they are doing a better job now than ever.

Can you expand on this a bit more, because I'm going in the opposite direction you are. I think that (obviously with some exceptions) sculpts haven't been getting better. That being said I'm still purchasing them, but a good chunk of the new minis to come out over the past couple of months (I would go back as far as the past couple of years) haven't been jiving with me.

[Khell]

No, you're cutting IWM a lot of undeserved slack. If they cannot support the product line, then they are wrong, not the customers. Khell - and others, including myself - are absolutely within our rights to complain.

I seriously think it's time for BattleTech and Iron Wind Metals to part ways. I wish them luck, but they have become a drag on the franchise. BattleTech is about to get a shiny new miniatures rulebook, but the playing pieces themselves are overpriced, poorly sculpted, and the line is incomplete. I know, it's a lot of different units to have to keep in production, and can dig that, but there's no excuse for the attitude of "yes, it looks bad, take it or leave it...at $15 each."

Thank you Bosch.  It's nice to know someone understands my grievance.  I don't think IWM is doing that bad of a job - definitely not a drag on the franchise - but there is definitely room for improvement.  In comparison to other similar games, their prices are actually pretty fair (except on VTOLs for some reason).  It's definitely the quality I take issue with; not the quality of the new pieces, but of the older ones that truly do need some reworking.

I'll agree that you, as customers are in the right to complain, if unsatisfied. I'll also agree that some of the sculpts have been unsatisfactory (we may, or may not, agree on which ones), but I have to ask:

What manufacturer could possibly take over the line and satisfactorily produce a fully supported new line of minis for hundreds (thousands?) of different battlemechs in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time? To reduce the per-unit price point, we'd pretty much also need it to be a plastics manufacturer, and launching that big a line from scratch would cost millions.

Even if all you want to support is new material, the TRO3145 series still contains more than dozens different units (~10 'mechs x 6-7 books), which is a very big chunk of the average manufacturer's annual new product SKUs.

So I guess my summary is: You are right to complain when you see a flaw, and you are right to point out sculpting flaws/errors. All I would suggest is that we keep some perspective on what is realistic.

The only manufacturer who could at this moment pick up Battletech's line and have an acceptable amount of miniatures within a year is Citadel - who most definitely would never do so.  But that is not to say IWM is irreplaceable, and I've speculated elsewhere that (commercial-grade) 3D printing is going to be the contender they should be looking to either invest in, or prepare to be supplanted by.  I personally love IWM, and don't want them to fail or be replaced, but from a consumer's perspective I have certain expectations for the money I spend, and if someone can exceed those expectations better than Iron Wind, it would be hard to put loyalty before product.

And again I say, price isn't the issue, at least not in my eyes.  As others point out, Battletech allows and encourages proxy play, so the miniatures are a luxury.  You don't complain about the price of a luxury, you either buy it or don't.  Quality is a whole different ballgame, and even with the new sculpts, scale is one quality issue still needing addressing.  (My brand new Charger 1A1 is about the size of a Centurion, while mechs only 20T larger are literally double the metal, 30-50% taller, and thrice as thick.  And the one-piece Banshee from the Fire Support lance pack is small enough to be mistaken for a Vindicator.  Meanwhile, the Ninja-To is significantly larger than a Tai-Sho while being 20T lighter, and damn-near takes up the entire hex left and right of it because of its arms.)

Heavy Gear/DP9 does a fine job with their minis; multi-part, customizable and *gasp* relatively to scale with one another!  Think that Snub Cannon looks too big in the hands of an Iguana but just right in the hands of a Desert Viper.  Well it should because the SC's size doesn't change between the two Gears which are of different classes.

Weapon size has always been an issue with Battletech, but it's more the fault of the artists (and Fasa not giving stricter guidelines).  A pre-drilled hole on one mech is a MLas, while on another it's an SRM tube, or a machine gun, or a PPC.  The art could never keep straight that SRMs are larger than LRMs, or that gauss rifles required long, large-bore barrels.  And I still can't stand that the Dragon's 4-talon hand is constantly drawn and subsequently sculpted to look like a gun barrel, and not the grasper it is.  Too late to change it, but the whole game suffers for this flaw.

I won't say much, but ..."paintable plastic minis" doesn't really sound like the quality you (and me) are craving. More like a cheap mass product. You do remember the box-set minis? Paintable plastic minis, made for gaming.
Besides, plastic minis? No, thank you. But that is me as a painter/collector speaking.

Plastic can work, if done right.  Citadel is the best example of good plastic, but Dust Tactics or Super Dungeon Explore do it right as well.  It's all about getting the sharp-edged hard plastic that can do detail work, and not the 3rd-ed/Citytech/CGL/25thA style of cheap, soft plastic, nor the Clickytech style of rubberized garbage.  And speaking as someone who likes to modify his models, plastic trumps metal any day for that.

[Burning Chrome]

I won't say much, but ..."paintable plastic minis" doesn't really sound like the quality you (and me) are craving. More like a cheap mass product. You do remember the box-set minis? Paintable plastic minis, made for gaming.

Nope.  Your assumptions are off-base.  Wasn't referring to the horrid plas-tech minis.  Not sure why you'd even think that considering my opinion on current metal minis.  ???

Besides, plastic minis? No, thank you. But that is me as a painter/collector speaking.

As you said, your preference.

Well, many think the Stone Rhino was way too small (me included). It is not as if all the "old sculpts" were perfect to begin with ...

I've never said the old sculpts were perfect.  But for the most part, they were in scale with each other and fit in a hex base more-or-less.  P-Hawk, S-Hawk, Griffin were too big for sure, despite the excellence (for the most part) of the sculpts.

The Thor and Loki were are excellent plastic minis.  The Inner Sphere Mechs in the set are copies of copies of modified copies.  Had they created them from scratch I believe the quality would have been higher.  Had they used the same process as the Thor and Loki I doubt anyone would be having this discussion.

Agreed.  Though I have never seen those particular plastic minis in person, several players have raved about them.

IWM has not always put forth the best product, but I agree with Gunji-- they are doing a better job now than ever. Some recent sculpts by those within the community, within this very thread even, have been close to flawless. I will happily continue to send my money to these great miniatures.

I disagree with most of what you have said, but do agree there have been some excellent sculpts released...now and then.

I hope that no one was/is turned off from the game by the strong, if in some cases outstandingly flawed, ideas being thrown around here. Believe me, there's a time for *constructive* criticism, but that typically entails remaining polite, and treating the other party as you would want to be treated. Customarily, it is also exchanged from parties within a similar background, with shared experience, in a like field. I would venture most here have not ever been self employed, much less attempted to sculpt a miniature. I think many would be more humble knowing the real WORK it requires to keep a small company afloat.

Ah yes, again the bleeding heart, snarky insult, and mutual appreciation society responses.  Finally.  If I was you, I wouldn't "venture" anything regarding anyone's background.  Might want to check yourself on the "treat others as you would want to be treated" comment as well as it cuts both ways.  I find this particular statement highly insulting, but I'm not crying for a mod or attempting the "high-ground" argument.  Alluding that we should be sculptors ourselves before we dare to have an opinion or critique a mini is ludicrous.  The consumer's opinion on the value of the product is what matters most.  Your statement is very telling. 

That said, I wish people would use this very same passion to fuel something inspiring-- instead of playing keyboard commando. Just think of all the wonderful bashes, and paint jobs that could have been completed on the energy within this thread alone. Creativity only fuels further creativity. For the love of all that's good, bring it!! #P

Another snarky comment followed by fluffy statements to cover oneself.  Nice.

I was hoping to post some pictures of examples of what I'm talking about regarding plastic minis...we'll see if I have time tonight.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

Hehe...now where did I leave my "mister snarky" badge?

[Burning Chrome]

Ha ha...think its tattooed on your forehead. 

 ;)

[Khell]

The Thor and Loki were are excellent plastic minis.

Agreed.  Though I have never seen those particular plastic minis in person, several players have raved about them.

Those two are absolutely stunning.  The detail, the quality...  But not perfect - their scale is so much larger than IWM's line, perhaps three times the cubic volume of the metal counterpart, about as tall as the Atlas resculpt and much thicker/wider.  Not a bad thing, so long as they kept all future releases to scale, but they look out-of-place around normal Battletech miniatures, and if they ever made the switch-over to this new style, you'd need slightly larger hexes on the maps.

My pair sit in their boxes, not to be primed or painted until my skill greatly improves because I wouldn't ever want to ruin such a stunning model with my worse-than-amateur painting.

[Burning Chrome]

Those two are absolutely stunning.  The detail, the quality...  But not perfect - their scale is so much larger than IWM's line, perhaps three times the cubic volume of the metal counterpart, about as tall as the Atlas resculpt and much thicker/wider.  Not a bad thing, so long as they kept all future releases to scale, but they look out-of-place around normal Battletech miniatures, and if they ever made the switch-over to this new style, you'd need slightly larger hexes on the maps.

My pair sit in their boxes, not to be primed or painted until my skill greatly improves because I wouldn't ever want to ruin such a stunning model with my worse-than-amateur painting.

The scale/size thing was the only negative I've heard..more like a collector's item than a table top mini.  An oddity for sure, but appreciated by many.

[Akalabeth]

No, you're cutting IWM a lot of undeserved slack. If they cannot support the product line, then they are wrong, not the customers. Khell - and others, including myself - are absolutely within our rights to complain.

So an unwillingness to resculpt old miniatures qualifies as "not supporting the product line"?
Here I thought supporting the product line equated to releasing miniatures for new units, which they are doing.

If you have a separate issue that's fine but this is a thread about resculpts, not about "supporting the product line".

I seriously think it's time for BattleTech and Iron Wind Metals to part ways. I wish them luck, but they have become a drag on the franchise. BattleTech is about to get a shiny new miniatures rulebook, but the playing pieces themselves are overpriced, poorly sculpted, and the line is incomplete. I know, it's a lot of different units to have to keep in production, and can dig that, but there's no excuse for the attitude of "yes, it looks bad, take it or leave it...at $15 each."

And what miniatures do you define as poorly sculpted? Are they actually products of IWM? Or of Ral Partha?
The resculpted Clan Mechs look great.
The newer mechs I've purchased like the Phoenix, Hammerhands, etcetera look great.
My friend's purchased society mechs, and WOB Omnis, etcetera that all look great.

In fact isn't Khell's whole argument that the old miniatures look like trash, so he wants them re-sculpted (by IWM?). Ie, that IWM is producing good miniatures, just not the ones that he wants?

Going back and re-sculpting 200+ miniatures while still supporting latest releases is no easy feat. Which is not to say it's impossible, but it would require a larger team, more artists, etcetera, all of which may not be of the same quality as the existing sculptors.


The biggest problem I have with IWM is scale. But again, we're not talking about scale but resculpts.

[ShockaTime]

Another snarky comment followed by fluffy statements to cover oneself.  Nice.

It's not so much snarky as it is just categorically meaningless and in no way a solution to the production of poor minis.

No, you're cutting IWM a lot of undeserved slack. If they cannot support the product line, then they are wrong, not the customers. Khell - and others, including myself - are absolutely within our rights to complain.

I seriously think it's time for BattleTech and Iron Wind Metals to part ways. I wish them luck, but they have become a drag on the franchise. BattleTech is about to get a shiny new miniatures rulebook, but the playing pieces themselves are overpriced, poorly sculpted, and the line is incomplete. I know, it's a lot of different units to have to keep in production, and can dig that, but there's no excuse for the attitude of "yes, it looks bad, take it or leave it...at $15 each."

Missed this post earlier, but I find myself mostly in agreement. I'm not sure that splitting with IWM is solution just because they have proven that they are capable of putting out good minis, they just haven't in a number of cases. So somewhere there needs to be a sober second thought that evaluates whether the mini is worthy of being put on the market, because this 'good enough' attitude that you allude to is not acceptable. It sounds a little callous, but I honestly don't know how else to explain it. If someone else can by all means help me out.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

It's not so much snarky as it is just categorically meaningless and in no way a solution to the production of poor minis.

Say what you will. "Snarky" or "meaningless," fact is; people take things way too far at times, and don't have any sort of filter on what they say over the web. Things they would never say to someone else's face. And as for a solution? Funny, since I would say the same of others who only seem to exist to tear $#!() down. Why not be a positive influence for something? Anything. Negative some of the time is good. All the time is, annoying as hell. #P   

Can you expand on this a bit more...

Sure, as long as you don't read 'evil' between the lines. This is just my opinion. Which, at the end of the day, matters very little.

+ Shen Yi-- Very nice. Not in my top 10, but very faithful to the DA mini.
+ Stiletto-- Again very faithful to the source material.
- Pillager Anvil-- Proportions are off, and lacks detail found in the art. Misses the mark IMHO. Would have been fairly easy pre-production fixes. 
+ Zephyros Infantry Support Vehicle-- Excellent.
+ Svartalfa-- Almost flawless.
+ Sprite-- Flawless!!!!
+ Super Griffin-- Very nice, from what I've seen.
- Grand Titan Vengance-- Looks mostly faithful to the art, but the head and upper arms look...off. Misses the mark IMO.
- Gestalt-- Proportions are off, and lacks detail found in the art. Misses the mark.
+/- Revenant-- Sadly, the legs are smaller than the art. I would want them the same size, or larger for strength. Detail seems solid though. I will probably still purchase a couple.
+ Cephalus-- Flawless! Win.
+ Fennec-- Not my cup o' tea, but I actually like the mini quite a bit better than the art. Win.
+ Morrigan-- Looks great, but what's with the pose?
- Rook-- Sculpt is off. Legs are too thin. Misses the mark.
+ Hector-- Canopy detail is off, and a few other details are not here, but I prefer the mini to the art. Win.
+/- Kraken XR-- Proportions are off. Not a deal breaker, but also not my favorite. Wish that it was more faithful to the art.
- Osteon-- Proportions are off. Misses the mark, for me.
+ Lupus-- Almost flawless.
+ Wakazashi-- Very faithful to the art.
- Thunderbolt IIC-- Yikes. I am very sad that this got passed off as workable. Misses the mark. Sorry.
- Mad Cat MKIIE-- Proportions and details are off, torso is very small. Misses the mark.
+ Osprey-- Great.
+ Septicemia-- A few minor details are off. Solid overall though. Win.
- Warlord-- Does not match the art, proportions are off. Just not a nice example.
+ Wolverine II-- Very faithful to the art. A nice miniature.

[Burning Chrome]

... it is just categorically meaningless and in no way a solution to the production of poor minis.

That as well.

Say what you will. "Snarky" or "meaningless," fact is; people take things way too far at times, and don't have any sort of filter on what they say over the web. Things they would never say to someone else's face. And as for a solution? Funny, since I would say the same of others who only seem to exist to tear $#!() down. Why not be a positive influence for something? Anything. Negative some of the time is good. All the time is, annoying as hell. #P

Too many blind assumptions once again.  Not worth further comment.
 

Sure, as long as you don't read 'evil' between the lines.

Awesome request.  You should try it yourself sometime!  ;)

+ Shen Yi-- Very nice. Not in my top 10, but very faithful to the DA mini.
+ Stiletto-- Again very faithful to the source material.
- Pillager Anvil-- Proportions are off, and lacks detail found in the art. Misses the mark IMHO. Would have been fairly easy pre-production fixes. 
+ Zephyros Infantry Support Vehicle-- Excellent.
+ Svartalfa-- Almost flawless.
+ Sprite-- Flawless!!!!
+ Super Griffin-- Very nice, from what I've seen.
- Grand Titan Vengance-- Looks mostly faithful to the art, but the head and upper arms look...off. Misses the mark IMO.
- Gestalt-- Proportions are off, and lacks detail found in the art. Misses the mark.
+/- Revenant-- Sadly, the legs are smaller than the art. I would want them the same size, or larger for strength. Detail seems solid though. I will probably still purchase a couple.
+ Cephalus-- Flawless! Win.
+ Fennec-- Not my cup o' tea, but I actually like the mini quite a bit better than the art. Win.
+ Morrigan-- Looks great, but what's with the pose?
- Rook-- Sculpt is off. Legs are too thin. Misses the mark.
+ Hector-- Canopy detail is off, and a few other details are not here, but I prefer the mini to the art. Win.
+/- Kraken XR-- Proportions are off. Not a deal breaker, but also not my favorite. Wish that it was more faithful to the art.
- Osteon-- Proportions are off. Misses the mark, for me.
+ Lupus-- Almost flawless.
+ Wakazashi-- Very faithful to the art.
- Thunderbolt IIC-- Yikes. I am very sad that this got passed off as workable. Misses the mark. Sorry.
- Mad Cat MKIIE-- Proportions and details are off, torso is very small. Misses the mark.
+ Osprey-- Great.
+ Septicemia-- A few minor details are off. Solid overall though. Win.
- Warlord-- Does not match the art, proportions are off. Just not a nice example.
+ Wolverine II-- Very faithful to the art. A nice miniature.

Huh, thats funny.  I've read similar reviews/critiques by those who are accused of "reading evil between the lines",  "take things way too far at times, and don't have any sort of filter on what they say over the web",  and say "Things they would never say to someone else's face." and "only seem to exist to tear $#!() down" and are "annoying as hell".   

Welcome to the club!

[Lorcan Nagle]

Okay, talking strictly about business and not the game itself, what you said may make sense too, but another business has proved you wrong.  Games Workshop / Citadel Miniatures, curse their names, devote roughly half their sculpting assets to resculpt old miniatures, while the other half creates the new.  And resculpting made them rich!  I loved Ral Partha, I love Ironwind Metals, and I do love my Battletech.  But in a strictly business sense, GW has kicked the mecha-loving crap out of every other miniatures game in the market.  Some of that is because of better marketing / exposure, some of that is because of the variety of races to appeal to pretty much anyone, but I believe a sizable chunk of it comes from constantly refining and improving their product line, rather than only expanding it.  And that has absolutely nothing to do with GW constantly printing new editions of their game - you can play the new edition with old miniatures - but being able to take a box of 10 Chaos Marines and make each and every one look entirely different from another box of the same, well that definitely adds to the hobby-side of the game.

To address this point, while GW do have a policy of contantly refining their minis, it's not as simple as 1: resculpt mini, 2; ??? 3; profit.

GW currently have two tiers of resculpting:  replacing metal minis with finecast and upgrading their plastic kits.

The Finecast repalcement is part of a general retooling of their entire product line and not wholly applicable.  It is in line with one of the core tenets of mass-produced miniatures:  Plastic is only worth it for the stuff everyone will buy, metal or resin for the specialist stuff.  GW, Privateer and a number of other producers all do the same thing.

Now, when GW do a refresh of their plastic kits,it's always tied into a new codex, and it's generally done to make the parts as reusable as possible.  So your Space Marine tactical squad box will be a sprue with 10 Marine torsos, 10 pairs of Marine legs (maybe 2 or 3 different poses) and 10 backpacks.  And then you get a second sprue with the 8 bolters, flamer and missile launcher.

When you buy a box of assault marines, it's the same torsos and legs sprue, and a second one with bolt pistols, chainswords and jump packs.  A devastator squad box has heavy weaposn instead.  And the same goes through each GW kit.  Each kit refresh they do upgrades 3 or 4 boxes in the line, but those 3 or 4 boxes contain 50% or more of the same parts.  Or one of their current things os to consolidate units.  Your box might have the parts to do a Terminator Squad or a HQ section in Terminator armour.  Or you can make one vehicle from the parts, but have enough bits to pick between 2 or 3 different units.  Up until finecast came along, a huge volume of their metal units had remained unchaged for up to 10 years, especially for less popular factions like the Sisters of Battle.

Add to that that GW have an active policy of refreshing their playerbase - they're looking to grab kids between the ages of 12 to 16, and if they stick with the game after that fine, but the transient early teenager market is at least 60% of their customer base, if not higher.  So they have a high turnover in customers who are buying into the game new every few years.

And interestingly, this is a big part of why IWM were able to do the resculpts of the Clan Omnis so easily - they share parts.  The Dahser and Koshi have the same legs, as do the Uller and Puma, Dragonfly and Black Hawk, Vulture and Mad Cat, Thor and Loki, Gladiator and Man O'War and Daishi and Masakari.  A lot of them share arms too.  That means the cost to sculpt each mini could be spread across multiple SKUs, and as such absorb a smaller percentage of the production costs, and have a higher profit margin.

And you can see the same thing with MechWarrior: Dark Age minis, where a lot of tanks and mechs had identical missile pods, gun barrels and other parts.  Or Ral Partha skimping on costs for the original sculpt Avatar (which used Mad Cat/Vulture legs) and Sunder (Gladiator/Man O'War legs).

This is unfortunately less practical to do for IWM, because very few BattleTech minis share parts in quite the same way.  You also have very few guaranteed sells the same way Space Marine (or Imperial Guard or Eldar Guardian or whatever) squads are for 40K players, so you can't pump a load of cash into a big upgrade and expect a significant percentage of players to grab it.

[Daishi411]

I agree 95% with what ColBosch has said, as well as a few other people on this thread regarding the state of IWM quality and sculpt quality. My point of departure is that they have produced some nice work lately, and it confuses me as to why it isn't more consistent. In terms of the quality of the actual mini I feel like the 'it's good enough' mentality rings true. The minis I bought when I was first getting into the hobby are markedly better than the one I'm getting now.

The defense that I see to this is 'do you really believe that the people who produce these minis just say screw it' and throw it in a package? I'm not sure what to believe, but the fact that people question whether they actually care or not is telling, and that's what's important. The truth at their end doesn't matter, it's what it looks like.

I don't care how much time is put into packaging, molding sculpting etc. if the end product is bad, (that sounds horrible and callous, I know) but I just don't care, and it's hard to care when I have to e-mail IWM every time I make an order because they messed up, or I'm discouraged from buying a new mini because it looks bad. The only thing I care about is that I get a good mini for the price I pay for it. When a person has to deal with customer service for cable or satellite, you don't care if that person was having a bad day or how busy they are, or how many people are working with them that day, you judge them on the quality of their information, and if they perform their job poorly, you get upset and rightfully so.

This can be the case with any number of like instances and let's not pretend that you would react any differently. Any one of us would not make excuses for any like instance, o why do we make excuses for IWM so often and so consistently, by soooooo many people? It doesn't make any sense at all.

End rant. I'm sure a lot of this doesn't make sense, I don't care, I had to get it off my chest, cause the current situation confuses me so entirely.

[Daishi411]

Say what you will. "Snarky" or "meaningless," fact is; people take things way too far at times, and don't have any sort of filter on what they say over the web. Things they would never say to someone else's face. And as for a solution? Funny, since I would say the same of others who only seem to exist to tear $#!() down. Why not be a positive influence for something? Anything. Negative some of the time is good. All the time is, annoying as hell. #P   

What would you suggest we do then? I as out of genuine curiosity. I'm not s sculptor, I never will be one. I'm not an artist a writer, much of a painter and a worse kitbasher, not am I expected to be. Fans are not asked about how they feel about miniatures before they're produced because design by commission would be silly beyond belief. So what am I and others here left with. Based on an earlier post it would seem we would all have to be sculptors, and that we should take what we get and fix it ourselves. Hardly reasonable or practical after spending money on a mini, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect consistently good quality minis for the prices we pay. So please, tell me what I should do to be a positive influence, you seem to have all the answers (this is not snark or sarcasm, you genuinely seem to know what you expect of us) and I'd hardly call you unbiased, especially based on the rating your last post provided. 

[Akalabeth]

The only thing I care about is that I get a good mini for the price I pay for it. When a person has to deal with customer service for cable or satellite, you don't care if that person was having a bad day or how busy they are, or how many people are working with them that day, you judge them on the quality of their information, and if they perform their job poorly, you get upset and rightfully so.

If this is the way you relate to people you need to adjust yourself.
It is NOT alright to not give a shit about who's on the other line and go off because you feel entitled. That's childish.

This can be the case with any number of like instances and let's not pretend that you would react any differently. Any one of us would not make excuses for any like instance, o why do we make excuses for IWM so often and so consistently, by soooooo many people? It doesn't make any sense at all.

Because our experience and opinion is DIFFERENT from yours?
My friend and I (Porkins) and his friend have consistently made orders from IWM and not had a problem. We've got great service. Do we love all the sculpts? No. But if we don't, or if we think they're over priced, we don't buy them.

I wanted some Merkavas. They're 15 dollars for one tank. I won't buy them.
But other figs I will buy because I feel they're worth it or because they look good to me.

[Burning Chrome]

I agree 95% with what ColBosch has said, as well as a few other people on this thread regarding the state of IWM quality and sculpt quality. My point of departure is that they have produced some nice work lately, and it confuses me as to why it isn't more consistent. In terms of the quality of the actual mini I feel like the 'it's good enough' mentality rings true. The minis I bought when I was first getting into the hobby are markedly better than the one I'm getting now.

The defense that I see to this is 'do you really believe that the people who produce these minis just say screw it' and throw it in a package? I'm not sure what to believe, but the fact that people question whether they actually care or not is telling, and that's what's important. The truth at their end doesn't matter, it's what it looks like.

I don't care how much time is put into packaging, molding sculpting etc. if the end product is bad, (that sounds horrible and callous, I know) but I just don't care, and it's hard to care when I have to e-mail IWM every time I make an order because they messed up, or I'm discouraged from buying a new mini because it looks bad. The only thing I care about is that I get a good mini for the price I pay for it. When a person has to deal with customer service for cable or satellite, you don't care if that person was having a bad day or how busy they are, or how many people are working with them that day, you judge them on the quality of their information, and if they perform their job poorly, you get upset and rightfully so.

This can be the case with any number of like instances and let's not pretend that you would react any differently. Any one of us would not make excuses for any like instance, o why do we make excuses for IWM so often and so consistently, by soooooo many people? It doesn't make any sense at all.

End rant. I'm sure a lot of this doesn't make sense, I don't care, I had to get it off my chest, cause the current situation confuses me so entirely.

Shack.  (USAF Bomber term meaning dead-on target...well when I was involved with BOnes anyways)

[Daishi411]

If this is the way you relate to people you need to adjust yourself.
It is NOT alright to not give a shit about who's on the other line and go off because you feel entitled. That's childish.

Wrong. I am neither entitled nor childish, and I never said I don't give a **** about the people that work at the other end, because I do, as a fellow human. When one of the IWM employees fell off his motorbike, I e-mailed my concerns, and I genuinely meant it. Nobody deserves that. What I don't care about are the reasons for why poor jobs are being done. When I perform poorly at work, my boss may care deeply that I have a lot of schoolwork to do and little time and empathize with my situation. However it is not relevant to why I have performed poorly, it's as simple as that, my boss does not care that these are the reasons why my work is poor quality. If your workplace is different tell me so that I can apply their when I'm finished school. So let's not be disingenuous here, and pretend that we react differently in like circumstances with companies other than IWM.

My friend and I (Porkins) and his friend have consistently made orders from IWM and not had a problem. We've got great service. Do we love all the sculpts? No. But if we don't, or if we think they're over priced, we don't buy them.

I wanted some Merkavas. They're 15 dollars for one tank. I won't buy them.
But other figs I will buy because I feel they're worth it or because they look good to me.

I'm the same way. My experience with the service is always good also.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

So please, tell me what I should do to be a positive influence...

Well, that's easy. Find something you like and work hard at it... :P

[ShockaTime]

If this is the way you relate to people you need to adjust yourself.
It is NOT alright to not give a shit about who's on the other line and go off because you feel entitled. That's childish.

Daishi's post had nothing to do with entitlement, he brings up a number of very real pressing issues, not "going off" as you put it.

Because our experience and opinion is DIFFERENT from yours?
My friend and I (Porkins) and his friend have consistently made orders from IWM and not had a problem. We've got great service. Do we love all the sculpts? No. But if we don't, or if we think they're over priced, we don't buy them.

I'm not sure that their customer service really has much to do with the discussion over the quality of sculpts. I think it's a separate issue but not really relevant.

Say what you will. "Snarky" or "meaningless," fact is; people take things way too far at times, and don't have any sort of filter on what they say over the web. Things they would never say to someone else's face. And as for a solution? Funny, since I would say the same of others who only seem to exist to tear $#!() down. Why not be a positive influence for something? Anything. Negative some of the time is good. All the time is, annoying as hell. #P   

Well the fact is that this is a discussion about the 'failings' (a cumbersome word, not exactly the one I'm looking for but the exact one eludes me at the moment) of IWM's sculpting. you may see it is plain old negativity, but I've been really impressed with this discussion and it's one of the first times this topic has actually been explored without the IWM 'haters' being vilified as ungrateful and entitled whiners (although we've gotten close). I think this is an important discussion to have.

[Akalabeth]

Wrong. I am neither entitled nor childish, and I never said I don't give a **** about the people that work at the other end, because I do, as a fellow human.

Did you not just state that you "judge" a person based on their quality of service? That in some cases you're entitled to be upset? Judging people are caring about people are two different things you realize, and there's a difference between judging a service and judging a person performing a service.

I'm the same way. My experience with the service is always good also.

Quit back peddling. You say your service is good then just 2 seconds ago you complain "it's hard to care when I have to e-mail IWM every time I make an order because they messed up, or I'm discouraged from buying a new mini because it looks bad. "

Do you get good service or don't you?

And if you get good service then why are you confused when people aren't in favour of switching manufacturers?

[Akalabeth]

Daishi's post had nothing to do with entitlement, he brings up a number of very real pressing issues, not "going off" as you put it.

I'm not sure that their customer service really has much to do with the discussion over the quality of sculpts. I think it's a separate issue but not really relevant.

Considering that you and others have already broadened this discussion from its original focus of resculpting old designs I'm not sure you're in a position to say what is and what is not relevant to this discussion.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

Well the fact is that this is a discussion about the 'failings'...

I thought it was a discussion about getting older minis re-sculpted. Perhaps it has turned into another thread about perceived failings?

I think this is an important discussion to have.

Totally agree with you. Like I said though, some take it *way* too far.

[Burning Chrome]

Well the fact is that this is a discussion about the 'failings' (a cumbersome word, not exactly the one I'm looking for but the exact one eludes me at the moment) of IWM's sculpting. you may see it is plain old negativity, but I've been really impressed with this discussion and it's one of the first times this topic has actually been explored without the IWM 'haters' being vilified as ungrateful and entitled whiners (although we've gotten close). I think this is an important discussion to have.

Exactly.

And thanks to this discussion, IWM might have just made a sale. 

I blame IAMCLANWOLF as his list pointed out the Super Griffin will be available at the Con (please dont be ridiculously HUGE).  Didn't know it existed till now...and like what I see so far.

Maybe I will drag my Cylon armor out of storage after all... :D

[ShockaTime]

Quit back peddling. You say your service is good then just 2 seconds ago you complain "it's hard to care when I have to e-mail IWM every time I make an order because they messed up, or I'm discouraged from buying a new mini because it looks bad. "

It's not backpedaling. What he is saying is that on numerous occasions orders have been messed up in some way (be it sculpting, omitted parts or entire items etc) requiring IWM to fix it. It's annoying and a perfectly legitimate complaint. However when it comes to fixing the order they have been good. Customer service and quality of product are two different things.

I thought it was a discussion about getting older minis re-sculpted. Perhaps it has turned into another thread about perceived failings?

It may have started that way, but it's quite clear that we're talking about the issues surrounding IWM's products (for a page and a half now) so there should be no confusion.

Totally agree with you. Like I said though, some take it *way* too far.

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't really seen anything that I would categorize as "way" too far.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Guys, it's getting a bit heated in here, can you dial it down please?