Author Topic: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)  (Read 197065 times)

Zeruel

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #60 on: 07 November 2014, 21:39:47 »
So what is your Dire Wolf killing secret? Always run behind them?

I land a nice double tap to the CT with my UAC20...hi Foxx ;)
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Foxx Ital

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #61 on: 07 November 2014, 23:54:52 »
I land a nice double tap to the CT with my UAC20...hi Foxx ;)

Bah  [blank] I wish it was that, no instead it's plink in my Kodiaks CT and 3 engine crits  #P But you would be proud of how much lost time i'v made up for how much trash talk i used to spray about the Executioner,Z.  O0

....you know its been almost 2 clan generations since that match  ;D
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Zeruel

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #62 on: 08 November 2014, 23:07:29 »
Aggh, we are old solomha now...
"I'll give the Bears this... they do not care about "being clan" one bit, and they own it." - cold1

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marauder648

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #63 on: 09 November 2014, 08:57:59 »
Aggh, we are old solomha now...

You're only as solomha as you let yourself be. 

Or if some young new Elemental comes and kicks the snot out of you...
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marauder648

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #64 on: 10 November 2014, 10:08:28 »
A quick thought whilst looking through a TRO occured to me, do the Bears have a protomech programme?  One would think with their love of elementals and heavy infantry that the Bears would give Proto's a serious look in, but then again I assume that because of the degredation of proto pilots this would be seen in a bad light, especially with the 'family' nature of the bears.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #65 on: 10 November 2014, 10:45:11 »
Nope just lots and lots of Elementals. After Zeta was lost they didn't reconstitute the all Elemental Galaxy (to all of our sadness) but they never really got involved in the Proto program. I think the Ravens and the Horses have them in the IS and that's it.

MidfieldMarauder

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #66 on: 10 November 2014, 11:03:28 »
Like the Aerospace phenotype before it, the ProtoMech phenotype was determined to be too physically weak to suit the Bears' doctrine of a warrior being as dangerous out of the cockpit as they were in one.
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marauder648

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #67 on: 10 November 2014, 13:50:27 »
Thank you for clearing that up Trothkin.
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Jellico

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #68 on: 10 November 2014, 20:00:23 »
Like the Aerospace phenotype before it, the ProtoMech phenotype was determined to be too physically weak to suit the Bears' doctrine of a warrior being as dangerous out of the cockpit as they were in one.
More correctly the ProtoMech phenotype is a development of the Aerospace phenotype, which the Bears did not develop in the same direction as the Clans in general. (The Bears have aerospace bloodlines, they just don't look like those of the other Clans.)

So, back in 3060 when ProtoMechs burst onto the scene the Bears took a look, found they didn't have the infrastructure to operate Protos (no pilots) and unlike the Jaguars had resources to burn on 'Mechs. The lack of Zelbriggen free units for abusing the Inner Sphere worked itself out when the Kungsarme rejuvenated the tank corps. (Bear tankers are 4/5 post 3075ish.)

elementals and heavy infantry
Protos are closer to small 'Mechs than heavy infantry. For example an Elemental can still move around a building (very strong floors in BattleTech) while a Proto can't. An Elemental can take a guy prisoner, a Proto can't.
War is about more than shooting the biggest guns at each other. That is what we have 'Mechs for. Infantry fills in the gaps where the big guns can't go and are inappropriate.

It is well worth noting there are a lot of situations where infantry is still more appropriate than battle armour. Consider for a moment that Elementals don't have hands making them bouncy Daleks. Where does that leave Protos?

Diablo48

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #69 on: 10 November 2014, 22:48:44 »
More correctly the ProtoMech phenotype is a development of the Aerospace phenotype, which the Bears did not develop in the same direction as the Clans in general. (The Bears have aerospace bloodlines, they just don't look like those of the other Clans.)

So, back in 3060 when ProtoMechs burst onto the scene the Bears took a look, found they didn't have the infrastructure to operate Protos (no pilots) and unlike the Jaguars had resources to burn on 'Mechs. The lack of Zelbriggen free units for abusing the Inner Sphere worked itself out when the Kungsarme rejuvenated the tank corps. (Bear tankers are 4/5 post 3075ish.)

That and we already had Omega to fill our no-holds-barred combat needs so there was really no need for them.  I feel like we might not have even bothered testing protos like the other Clans did as a result, although I could very well be wrong on this.

Quote
Protos are closer to small 'Mechs than heavy infantry. For example an Elemental can still move around a building (very strong floors in BattleTech) while a Proto can't. An Elemental can take a guy prisoner, a Proto can't.
War is about more than shooting the biggest guns at each other. That is what we have 'Mechs for. Infantry fills in the gaps where the big guns can't go and are inappropriate.

It is well worth noting there are a lot of situations where infantry is still more appropriate than battle armour. Consider for a moment that Elementals don't have hands making them bouncy Daleks. Where does that leave Protos?

I am definitely with you on this, and your last point is why I consider any BA lacking at least one Armored Glove to have a significant design flaw.  The wild hand-things out there do definitely have their uses, but they are worthless for precision tasks like using a keyboard or grabbing delicate objects so the simple glove is an indispensable tool which should not be sacrificed unless it is absolutely necessary.


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Jellico

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #70 on: 11 November 2014, 01:32:46 »
I am definitely with you on this, and your last point is why I consider any BA lacking at least one Armored Glove to have a significant design flaw.  The wild hand-things out there do definitely have their uses, but they are worthless for precision tasks like using a keyboard or grabbing delicate objects so the simple glove is an indispensable tool which should not be sacrificed unless it is absolutely necessary.
Rule of cool.


If we were honest Zelbriggen has been off the table since 3053 for all Bear Clusters. It is really more of a consideration for the politics of internal promotion (showing off) and table top games. In games players have found Protos to be useful as the Zelbriggen restrictions aren't as strict for Protos while the Protos are tougher than tanks.

I can't find the reference. It would be surprising if no evaluation of Protomechs was performed. Though the data could have been made available through connections with other Clans.



Diablo48

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #71 on: 11 November 2014, 12:48:18 »
Rule of cool.

Ah yes, the single greatest law of the BT universe.  How could I forget. ;D

Quote
If we were honest Zelbriggen has been off the table since 3053 for all Bear Clusters. It is really more of a consideration for the politics of internal promotion (showing off) and table top games. In games players have found Protos to be useful as the Zelbriggen restrictions aren't as strict for Protos while the Protos are tougher than tanks.

Yeah, my point exactly.

Quote
I can't find the reference. It would be surprising if no evaluation of Protomechs was performed. Though the data could have been made available through connections with other Clans.

That was what I was thinking as well, but I cannot remember seeing anything about Bear trials, I know we do not have the required phenotype, and we are most definitely good friends with the Ravens so we could have easily traded for their data.  The result is that I feel like we might not have ever done our own evaluation even if that does most definitely seem odd, but there is a lot of logic behind not even trying given our situation so it is a possibility.


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Archangel

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #72 on: 11 November 2014, 15:47:36 »
ProtoMech Strike 1:  Small cockpit that required a pilot that the Ghost Bears.
ProtoMech Strike 2:  ProtoMechs required EI system to pilot.
ProtoMech Strike 3:  Society scientists downplaying their achievements to the Warrior Castes.

By the time the Ultraheavy ProtoMechs came out the Ghost Bears would have already made up their minds and it would have taken, at the very least, consistent extraordinary battlefield performance by the UH ProtoMechs for the Ghost Bears to even consider changing their minds.
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snewsom2997

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #73 on: 11 November 2014, 15:57:05 »
ProtoMech Strike 1:  Small cockpit that required a pilot that the Ghost Bears.
ProtoMech Strike 2:  ProtoMechs required EI system to pilot.
ProtoMech Strike 3:  Society scientists downplaying their achievements to the Warrior Castes.

By the time the Ultraheavy ProtoMechs came out the Ghost Bears would have already made up their minds and it would have taken, at the very least, consistent extraordinary battlefield performance by the UH ProtoMechs for the Ghost Bears to even consider changing their minds.

Do you know what is the Price different, C-Bills, between a UH Sprite and a Locust IIC?

A Locust IIC costs about 2.5 Million C-Bills, and doesn't require an entirely new training program. However the Bears do like their Assault Type Machines like the Kodiak, I think there could be a place for SH infantry in the Touman, if the cost for a point of Sprites was less than that of a Locust IIC and the training wasn't much different than either mech training or BA training.

SteveRestless

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #74 on: 11 November 2014, 22:08:38 »
Do you know what is the Price different, C-Bills, between a UH Sprite and a Locust IIC?

A Locust IIC costs about 2.5 Million C-Bills, and doesn't require an entirely new training program. However the Bears do like their Assault Type Machines like the Kodiak, I think there could be a place for SH infantry in the Touman, if the cost for a point of Sprites was less than that of a Locust IIC and the training wasn't much different than either mech training or BA training.

Megamek estimates the cbill cost at around 1.2 mil. I was gonna check the MUL, but it doesn't want to load here right now.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

marauder648

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #75 on: 12 November 2014, 02:40:33 »
A quick question whats a 'UH Proto'?  Ultra-Heavy I assume, but there's like 2 of them at most and only one the Bears would have seen.  With how big the Scvvlalrha..th...the Horses UH Proto is, would the bears just go 'oh its a VERY light mech' rather than a Proto.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2014, 02:55:30 by marauder648 »
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David CGB

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #76 on: 12 November 2014, 05:33:16 »
More correctly the ProtoMech phenotype is a development of the Aerospace phenotype, which the Bears did not develop in the same direction as the Clans in general. (The Bears have aerospace bloodlines, they just don't look like those of the other Clans.)
with the large free birth pop in the new lands why not use those who are called dwarves to pilot our promoech
« Last Edit: 12 November 2014, 05:35:37 by David CGB »
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Jellico

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #77 on: 12 November 2014, 06:00:34 »
Size is only part of the issue.

The typical Clan Aerospace phenotype has shown an increased resistance to the mentally damaging effects of the ProtoMechs' EI control system. You put a regular guy in a ProtoMech and they will go insane in months rather than years.

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #78 on: 12 November 2014, 06:51:57 »
While there are no rules for it, use of the EI system in Freebirths is problematic. By 3132, there was only a single Freebirth known to have undergone the surgery for EI implants and survived the process. And that's before he goes insane or kills himself from using it
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Archangel

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #79 on: 12 November 2014, 21:44:03 »
Well UH Protos don't utilize EI Systems to pilot them rather they use a modified PA(L) suit to pilot them, but it probably isn't enough to convince them.  ProtoMechs were originally designed to make use of limited resources in the Homeworlds, but the Ghost Bears have plenty of resources available so they would probably stick with light 'Mechs.
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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #80 on: 12 November 2014, 22:13:45 »
Well UH Protos don't utilize EI Systems to pilot them rather they use a modified PA(L) suit to pilot them, but it probably isn't enough to convince them.  ProtoMechs were originally designed to make use of limited resources in the Homeworlds, but the Ghost Bears have plenty of resources available so they would probably stick with light 'Mechs.

No, Protos us EI. Its the Word's Machima Domeni that uses a PA (L) suit. Completely different things
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Diablo48

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #81 on: 12 November 2014, 22:27:07 »
No, Protos us EI. Its the Word's Machima Domeni that uses a PA (L) suit. Completely different things

I am fairly sure that used a neural link of some form as well with all the drawbacks that has in BT, the PA(L) was just one part of the system.


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glitterboy2098

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #82 on: 13 November 2014, 03:15:20 »
No, Protos us EI. Its the Word's Machima Domeni that uses a PA (L) suit. Completely different things
the Ultra Heavy proto's (10+ tons) introduced by the Society (and picked up by the Hells Horses) combine a PAL type interface with EI, with the pilot controlling movements at least partially like a battlesuit.

the standard size of proto's however (1 to 9 tons) use only EI.

presumably the larger proto's have issues with pure EI controls, requiring the hybrid approach. they still use the aerospace phenotype as pilots though.

Archangel

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #83 on: 13 November 2014, 15:14:47 »
"Pushing ProtoMech design techniques to their limits, Ultraheavy ProtoMechs can reach a maximum weight of 15 tons (15,000 kilograms), overlapping the tonnage of Ultralight BattleMechs. Achieving this without using BattleMech-scale components—including gyros—meant creating a larger control system based around a modified PA(L) suit. In addition to giving the Ultra the same flexibility of control, this suit-based cockpit and control unit doubles as an escape system for ProtoMech warriors, something not possible for lighter, standard-weight ProtoMechs." (WoR, p204)

Other than this section, I have seen no other indication as to how the ultraheavy ProtoMechs are piloted.  There is no mention of the PA(L) including EI or that aerospace phenotypes are required to pilot them.
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Zeruel

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #84 on: 15 November 2014, 00:22:10 »
ugh, the toe flaps on the Bruin mini are a pain...have yet to get to the arm pegs...

also, please have a look :):
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/miniatures/introducing-the-rotorstorm/
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Carbon Elasmobranch

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #85 on: 16 November 2014, 00:18:32 »
I am fairly sure that used a neural link of some form as well with all the drawbacks that has in BT, the PA(L) was just one part of the system.

Machina Domini had to have a VDNI implant for the special PA(L) to interface with, yes.

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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #86 on: 16 November 2014, 07:09:54 »
Machina Domini had to have a VDNI implant for the special PA(L) to interface with, yes.

Machina Domini BattleMechs are different from Ultraheavy ProtoMechs, which is what we have been talking about.  While using similar technologies, UH ProtoMechs have (or at least had) a maximum tonnage of 15 tons while the only Machina Domini BattleMechs was the Gestalt which weighed 45 tons.  UH ProtoMechs only required the modified PA(L) suit while the Machina Domini required a MechWarrior with a VDNI implant, a  modified PA(L) suit AND a BattleMech Interface Cockpit.
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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #87 on: 29 November 2014, 10:59:17 »
At some point somewhere either Paul or Ben mentioned that UH Protos did not have to be driven by aero phenotypes.

I'd like to see a future where the Cobras cross train there aero pilots to fly fighters and drive Sprites.  Could be cool.

As for the Bears, I think tanks and protos typically end up doing the same things.  The bears seem to have no issue with their tank corps.

And now a question...
Do the Bears still build Executioners in the Dark Age?


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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #88 on: 29 November 2014, 13:33:43 »
I believe they do
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Re: The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)
« Reply #89 on: 29 November 2014, 17:55:32 »
And now a question...
Do the Bears still build Executioners in the Dark Age?

The Bears were building the Gladiator as of 3079. While their industry took a beating during the second Combine-Dominion War, I don't belive its production was affected. Likewise, while the Bears were trying to shut down some of the Dominion's less efficient mercantile-minded businesses that were cranking out bad 'Mechs for the sake of bilking them (Kuma, Beowolf IIC), I figure that the Gladiator would be one of those that would be deemed worthy of maintaining in production.

On a related, I just simply assumed they discontinued production of the Vulture in favour of the Vulture Mk III.
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