Author Topic: “Save” the Jags (Read 136610 times)

Sjhernan3060 · « **on:** 14 January 2016, 13:34:48 »

One of my favorite parts of the Twilight of the Clans is when Ilkhan Osis belated asks the other clans for help after Task Force Serpent has defeated the garrison. He is swiftly denied by the other clans. However after finding my twilight of the Clans scenario pack I would like to revisit this. I am asking you all for campaign and story ideas. So here are some questions and I ideas I have.

•   Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?
•   Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions
o   Storyline wise each of these options present opportunities and challenges but I could see the then crusader Horses do it
•   If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o   A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough
•   Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:
o   The design team for the protos
o   Access to unique Jag designs
o   I think I would pass on absorption but I am open to ideas

Zellbringen · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 January 2016, 13:49:14 »

It probably won't have taken much more to finish off TFS. Don't forgot that after defeating both of the Second Line Galaxies on planet TFS was in pretty bad shape. What remained of the Jag's front line forces that were returning from the Inner Sphere pretty much finished off what was left. It just took them so much time that Task Force Bulldog was able to support Serpent right at the end. A cluster or two of a fresh frontline galaxy from one of the other clans would probably destroyed the last of Serpent long before Bulldog could help.

But on the same side I don't think many of the other Clans would have helped the Jags. By all regards the Falcons were the closest thing the Jags had as an ally among the Clans, and then only because of them both being the "Leaders" of the Crusader faction. This is one of the reason the 2nd SL picked them the assumed that none of the other Clans would come to their aid. The Spirits were in no position to help after being devastated during the Burrock Absorption. The Hellions would probably be your best bet for any Clan giving assistance.

But then again this is a "what if". When ever I run those, I do what ever I need to make the story good.

False Son · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 January 2016, 13:55:51 »

I hate to be "that guy" but going by what happened to the Jaguar holdings after the Great Refusal, the Clans may not have cared to help for reasons other than Clan honor. There was a Clan who was being destroyed without a Trial to claim their holdings. Letting the SLDF smash the Jags opened up the land grab the other Clans fought in after the Jags were gone.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 January 2016, 14:18:29 »

Hmmm Good point False son.

Circa 3060 do you think any Clan other than the Adders would have had the foresight to preserve the Jags and kept them as vassal like what the Adders eventually did with the Horses/Stone Lions?
I do like the Hellion suggestion! It would have given them great battle experience and bragging rights. So lets take this a bit further:
TF Serpent is wiped out by a combined clan force. Roughly a Galaxy or less of a battered but battle hardened Jags survive.
TF Bulldog would not have known of this until their arrival in the Homeworlds. Do they still burn in system to try and finish the Jags?
Do things still play out exactly the same?
What if the helping clan absorbs the Jag survivors?
From the Clan mindset they could say “ Hey no Jags here!”
Would Bulldog still go for the Great Refusal?

JadeHellbringer · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 January 2016, 16:05:39 »

The thing to remember, to me, is that the Clan way dictated that the Jaguars HAD to go it alone. What the Jags saw as the Wolves (and Falcons) abandoning them to their fates, 'betraying' them, was merely the Clans practicing their rules. If you can't take on an enemy coming at you like this, you're too weak to contribute to the next generation of Kerensky's children- whether that be a warrior failing, or even an entire Clan. For the Jaguars to even admit wanting help was a massive loss of face. Had another Clan jumped in, really you'd have a situation not unlike the Burrock absorption later- in a matter between two forces, a third party interfered, a massive violation of Clan law- or at the very minimum, an admission that one side of the conflict is too weak to win without needing assistance, which might be even worse. In this case, even if Serpent is defeated, the Jaguars are doomed- someone is going to declare an Absorption or some such over their conduct, and they- and the Clan that helped them- are tainted and weak in the eyes of their comrades.

Rambling, I know, but just based on the Clan's own rules the Jags faced their fate and failed- a far better fate than succeeding through dezgra.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 January 2016, 16:14:56 »

Jadehellbringer - drop the mic.

I think you nailed it!

So assuming that

From an alternate stroy line perspective the moment that Osis asked for help a canny Khan could have declare him unfit for the Ilkhanship and or his clan ripe for absorption.

So say the crusader Horses or the Steel Vipers declare a trail of absorption could they then make the case they also get the Jags invasion corridor?

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 January 2016, 16:18:10 »

Further - I know Osis would fight absorption to the death and once he is killed but a much smarter leader like Brandon Howell could have seen the wisdom in accepting absorption....

Adding a galaxy of battle hardened Jags, Huntress as a secondary base to your Touman would give a ambitious Homeworld Clan like the Hellions or Horses a big leg up in the renewed invasion

JadeHellbringer · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 January 2016, 16:23:06 »

That gets tricky.

Let's use the Snow Ravens as our example, for no better reason than I've been painting a Zeta Galaxy Kit Fox E. The Ravens jump in and help the Jaguars. They succeed, but the Jags are shown to be weak and to be absorbed. Here's where it gets messy. The Ravens might claim it, but they jumped in- didn't they commit a dezgra act by interfering in a Trial which they had no involvement in? This kind of stuff lead to the Reaving a decade later, after all.

But, for sake of argument, sure, the Ravens do it. They absorb the Jags. If that's the case, yes, they gain all Jaguar personnel, assets, and posessions- which, yes, would include the invasion corridor... assuming Bulldog ALSO failed, and the invasion corridor still exists, of course. In that case, the Jaguar OZ becomes the Raven OZ (and likely immediately be subject to Trials of Grievance and such, because have you ever met the Clans before?)

Vition2 · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 January 2016, 17:06:35 »

Well, one thing is that the designation of dezgra is not part of clan law. Another is that even though Task Force Serpent is under the aegis of the new SLDF, it's more aptly considered coalition of nations fighting against one. By clan law, the ratio of attackers to defenders is based on the vote of the council. A second clan supporting the Jags could be considered a de facto vote against Task Force Serpent, allowing that clan to intercede.

Now, given the strength (or lack thereof) of the Jaguars after Task Force Serpent, a clan that comes in and aides them is very likely to call for an absorption afterwards. The Jags are stuck against a rock and hard place, or annihilation vs. absorption, their only real hope after Bulldog and Serpent is to allow their legacy to continue in another clan - they simply don't have the available numbers/strength to prevent this.

Takiro · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 January 2016, 17:26:17 »

Weren't the Diamond Sharks under Ian Hawker on their way to save the day when Vlad intercepted them and challenged for his legacy? If so simple alternate is to have Hawker get to Huntress and defeat the InnerSphere forces.

Natasha Kerensky · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 January 2016, 18:44:13 »

The key to having the Jags get help from other clans and survive is for Osis to not bring his two requests for aid before the Grand Council. Instead of bluntly asking for help and looking weak before all the Khans, Osis (or someone in the Jag leadership) should have contacted a couple of Clans (maybe Sharks and Hellions), conducted backroom negotiations, and contracted to use of a piece of their toumans, like the weakened Wolves once did with the Horses to protect their OZ border with the Bears. As already mentioned, a cluster or two from another clan at the right time on Huntress would have ensured that the Jags survived Serpent and a galaxy or two from another clan at the right time could have preserved some of the Jaguar OZ from Bulldog. I'm sure the contracted clans would have exacted a high price from the Jags (Dire Wolf and Warhawk production licenses for the Sharks and Spheroid holdings for the Hellions, for example), but the Jags could have held on for a while longer.

It might not have been much longer if, as already pointed out, another Clan simply decided to take everything remaining from the Jags in their weakened state. But if the objective is to survive Serpent and/or Bulldog, then the way the Jags do it is not to publicly rely on the kindness of strangers (a foreign concept if ever there was one among the Clans!) but rather to make a deal.

My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.

JadeHellbringer · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 January 2016, 01:40:23 »

Quote from: Natasha Kerensky on 14 January 2016, 18:44:13

The key to having the Jags get help from other clans and survive is for Osis to not bring his two requests for aid before the Grand Council. Instead of bluntly asking for help and looking weak before all the Khans, Osis (or someone in the Jag leadership) should have contacted a couple of Clans (maybe Sharks and Hellions), conducted backroom negotiations, and contracted to use of a piece of their toumans, like the weakened Wolves once did with the Horses to protect their OZ border with the Bears. As already mentioned, a cluster or two from another clan at the right time on Huntress would have ensured that the Jags survived Serpent and a galaxy or two from another clan at the right time could have preserved some of the Jaguar OZ from Bulldog. I'm sure the contracted clans would have exacted a high price from the Jags (Dire Wolf and Warhawk production licenses for the Sharks and Spheroid holdings for the Hellions, for example), but the Jags could have held on for a while longer.

It might not have been much longer if, as already pointed out, another Clan simply decided to take everything remaining from the Jags in their weakened state. But if the objective is to survive Serpent and/or Bulldog, then the way the Jags do it is not to publicly rely on the kindness of strangers (a foreign concept if ever there was one among the Clans!) but rather to make a deal.

My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.

Hard to argue with. In the Clans, it's all about looking tough- better to be wiped out than LOOK weak. Begging for help is a sin, but working out an arrangement with someone? Well that's just business. (Really not all that different in a way than the Falcons 'negotiating' for help with the Ravens for transport help during the invasion a decade earlier in a lot of ways).

Of course, when everything is said and done, the same problem still applies- after the war ends, the Jags still have to beat back accusations of being weak and such. But that's their problem.

Gaiiten · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 January 2016, 08:20:39 »

An interesting alternative scenario would have been if Osis might have been declared unit to be ilKhan, an Absorption Trial being declared and then another Clan trying to win the Jaguar possessions and has to fight the Spheroids for these.

It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 January 2016, 08:58:34 »

Same - and thats the angle I will take.

Once Osis ask for help boom he is declared unfit. Sooooo whom would you all like to see rumble with Osis?

Suggestions: Mad Fletcher then Khan of the Hells Horses who was keen on pushing a very hard line crusader agenda in a nominally warden clan

Once Osis is removed then things could get interesting:

If a pro - unity ( which was very much lacking at the time) Khan could win the Ilkhanship then they could ask for a joint Clan force to crush TF Serpent. Was there anyone at the time who could have done that? Marthe and Vlad seem to self serving but I am open to ideas

False Son · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 January 2016, 09:55:27 »

Quote from: Gaiiten on 15 January 2016, 08:20:39

It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.

Makes sense for the Warden section. Killing off the Jags takes out the most outspoken Crusaders without the Wardens having to escalate their opposition to fightin' status.

ColBosch · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 January 2016, 10:42:25 »

Quote from: Gaiiten on 15 January 2016, 08:20:39

It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.

How so? The SLDF took back a bunch of worlds for the Combine and set up an enclave on Huntress, but the other Clans divvied up the Jaguars' remaining holdings between them. The Smoke Jaguars were Annihilated, with only a handful of warriors escaping to become bandits. The deed was done, so why put themselves out to fight for a weak Clan that was already destroyed?

Further, there were many among the Clans who were disgruntled with the events leading up to the Great Refusal, which led to the Wars of Reaving. Not to mention that the Clans ultimately paid literally no attention to the Great Refusal at all, with both the Falcons and Bears seizing further Inner Sphere territory during the FedCom Civil War period. The Diamond Sharks and Snow Ravens invaded in their own ways while the Refusal was still in effect, and the Hellions and Horses only struck the Wolves and Falcons because they thought that the OZs would be easier to administer.

Zellbringen · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 January 2016, 11:08:01 »

How did they ignore the Great Refusal. The Great Refusal was a trial against the invasion of the Inner Sphere by the Clans. By no means was it a trial to stop any individual Clan from trialing for and taking territory. In WoR there is a section that talks about how the only thing the Great Refusal did was make Klondike's (a unified Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere as a whole to reform the Star League) goals null and void. Sense the SL was reformed as the 2nd Star League there was no need for the Clans to continue to try and reform it. What you have to remember is that the Great Refusal wasn't the Inner Sphere trialing the Clans. It was the Clans trialing the 2nd Star League as being a sham and not being a true Star League. The Crusaders lost this trial and thus killing Klondike but individual Clans were free to attack the Inner Sphere. So the Falcons and Bears were completely in their right to take worlds.

Gaiiten · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 January 2016, 11:14:11 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 15 January 2016, 10:42:25

How so? The SLDF took back a bunch of worlds for the Combine and set up an enclave on Huntress, but the other Clans divvied up the Jaguars' remaining holdings between them. The Smoke Jaguars were Annihilated, with only a handful of warriors escaping to become bandits. The deed was done, so why put themselves out to fight for a weak Clan that was already destroyed?

Further, there were many among the Clans who were disgruntled with the events leading up to the Great Refusal, which led to the Wars of Reaving. Not to mention that the Clans ultimately paid literally no attention to the Great Refusal at all, with both the Falcons and Bears seizing further Inner Sphere territory during the FedCom Civil War period. The Diamond Sharks and Snow Ravens invaded in their own ways while the Refusal was still in effect, and the Hellions and Horses only struck the Wolves and Falcons because they thought that the OZs would be easier to administer.

IMHO before the Jaguars were defeated on Huntress, if there had been a Trial of Absorption, the *Absorber* Clan could have won the Jaguar`s slot as Invader Clan.

Furthermore, before the Great Refusal there could have been argued that the Spheroids did not defeat the Jaguars completely, it was another Clan who did this. This Clan is now the Invader Clan.
Do you want to declare a Trial of Refusal against this Clan?

I believe there would have been an escalation and if there had been a clever new ilKhan (agreeing that all Homeclans can send an expedition force).

Takiro · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 January 2016, 12:15:27 »

I always thought the Great Refusal was "illegal" as the Wolves fought a Trail of Refusal against the invasion of the InnerSphere in 3049.

Also the Jags were not annihilated. Bondsmen were taken, lower castes were not sterilized, no Grand Council resolution was ever successfully passed. What happened to the Jags was more akin to an Absorption than an Annihilation.

That would be interesting as the Star League has standing through the Nova Cats already and declared a de facto absorption. Plus capturing the Clan and the ilKhan would have given even more status to the Second League. What happens if the Great Refusal was on the Clans part. They refuse to join the League after all this?

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 January 2016, 15:39:37 »

Putting aside ( the very interesting!) political what if's and back to the logistics of saving the jags and crushing TF Serpent.

Even though they had just been through the wringer in the Absorption war could that ever so angry Khan Schmidt have sent in the the Blood Guard Keshik:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Blood_Guard_Keshik_(Clan_Blood_Spirit)

Which I think could have been enough to snuff out TF Serpent if the Jags were able to pin them down.

So at the risk of a very elite and precious unit the Spirits stood to gain: A Galaxy of Jags, their home world, Two warships ( which the spirits really needed) among many other things.

So lets our imaginations go. Who would you have like to see do a "run in" to crush TF Serpent and vault themselves into the top tier over the remnants of the Jags?

Takiro · « **Reply #20 on:** 15 January 2016, 19:08:50 »

No.

Alternate idea for you instead of flipping out and wasting their strength in the Burrock Absorption the Spirits pounce a year later on the Jags.

ColBosch · « **Reply #21 on:** 15 January 2016, 19:15:15 »

It doesn't matter if TF Serpent was destroyed. There was plenty of force leftover in TF Bulldog, especially after the Jaguars ran away.

Zellbringen · « **Reply #22 on:** 15 January 2016, 19:35:02 »

I have to agree with ColBosch. I think without a full second Clan, and a strong one at that, Bulldog would have crushed anything left. True there was a lot left of Bulldog but a good portion of it was left in the Inner Sphere when they left to the Clans. I know at least 8 Regiments were with Victor when he arrived for sure based on the Great Refusal units, but I would guess it was closer to 15-20. The Spirits would have been wiped out if they supported the Jags. I'm betting some of the smaller Clans would have been as well. Maybe if the Coyotes, Ravens or Adders had helped they might have been able to push back TFB. But the Coyotes and Ravens are both Wardens and the Adders were still working on integrating the Burrocks. The other big Clans wouldn't have been any good as they were mainly in the IS(Bears, Falcons, Wolves and Vipers). The only way I could see the Jags being saved would be with the Horses, but even then the Horses at this time were fixated on the Bears so probably weren't going to be able to support against Bulldog anyway.

Mecha82 · « **Reply #23 on:** 16 January 2016, 09:34:49 »

I can see little bit of that "needs to the many out weight needs of the few"-thinking in that as well as Clan Politics and Crusader Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon wanting Clan Smoke Jaguar to prove themselves worthy to survive against Inner Sphere forces. How ever I think that Clan Politics had more to do with it.

cold1 · « **Reply #24 on:** 16 January 2016, 15:20:54 »

Let's see...
Agree to support the Jags
Obliterate TFS
Declare the Jags weak in the GC cuz they called you for help
Absorb the Jags
Become arguably the strongest clan and have a possible claim to a slot as an invader

This sounds like a deal an N'buta would love!!!

rebs · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 January 2016, 18:18:57 »

The Jags lived by "In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!" They went on to die by the mercy provided by their own brutal example.

It was superbly fitting for them to perish the way they did.

The only way it could have been more fitting is for the IS forces to bombard all population centers from orbit.

So really, there's no reason to save the Jags. Not in my opinion, anyway.

Mecha82 · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 January 2016, 18:35:25 »

Quote from: rebs on 16 January 2016, 18:18:57

The only way it could have been more fitting is for the IS forces to bombard all population centers from orbit.

That's interesting point. Maybe IS forces didn't do it so that they could show that they are better than that. After all they were led by Victor Steiner-Davion who's as archtypical good guy as you can get in BT.

rebs · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 January 2016, 19:00:40 »

Quote from: Mecha82 on 16 January 2016, 18:35:25

That's interesting point. Maybe IS forces didn't do it so that they could show that they are better than that. After all they were led by Victor Steiner-Davion who's as archtypical good guy as you can get in BT.

No doubt about why the IS forces did not use brutal tactics to destroy the Jags. I agree. Plus, the civs suffered enough under the Smoked Jags. More would just be heaping the misery on already broken people.

I was just musing that in the greater scheme of poetic universal justice, the Jags escaped getting the exact flavor of their just desserts.

jklantern · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 January 2016, 20:21:30 »

Quote from: rebs on 16 January 2016, 19:00:40

No doubt about why the IS forces did not use brutal tactics to destroy the Jags. I agree. Plus, the civs suffered enough under the Smoked Jags. More would just be heaping the misery on already broken people.

I was just musing that in the greater scheme of poetic universal justice, the Jags escaped getting the exact flavor of their just desserts.

You make it sound like they did the orbital bombardment thing all the time.

I mean, sure, there were all the numerous other terrible things they did involving burning down towns, but they only nuked a place from orbit once, right? ;D

Intermittent_Coherence · « **Reply #29 on:** 17 January 2016, 05:56:27 »

While the Orbital Bombardment was an outlier, the simple fact is that the Jaguars were noted to be among the most if not the most brutal of the remaining Clans to their lower caste.

And yes, a cluster or two might have finished off TFS, but would just die under Bulldog's guns. For that, a Galaxy or more would be needed.